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Honda Jazz, HR-V & Hybrid Forums => Honda Jazz Mk3 2015 - => Topic started by: ChrisNewman on August 09, 2018, 04:56:05 PM

Title: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: ChrisNewman on August 09, 2018, 04:56:05 PM
Hi,   

We have a Jazz SE, bought new May 2017 (UK spec, GK chassis).  Our son uses it for his short commute to work, gets irritated by the regular radio traffic announcements, and turns that feature off.  I use it for assorted trips evenings and weekends, and value the traffic warnings.  I understand the only way to turn them on or off is through the touch screen.

I start the car, reverse off the drive, and as I start to weave my way between the cars parked on our close, the standard warning appears on the screen.  I touch the OK "button" that should clear it, but usually nothing happens.  I try again, and after a few attempts the warning goes, and I can set TA on.  Sometimes my wife is with me, but the screen doesnít respond any better to her finger.  Iíve tried things like pressing hard on the screen, tapping rather than pressing, and licking my finger, but havenít found a reliable way to clear the warning.  (I have a smartphone, and that responds readily when I touch it.) 

The need to clear this warning is a dangerous distraction, which shouldnít be necessary for each journey now that we are all too familiar with it, but I understand weíre stuck with the warning.

Do others have difficulty getting this message to clear?

What is the best way to operate the touch screen with your hand?  Does anyone know the physical properties to which these screens respond?  I wonder if I could keep a small block of a suitable material handy in the car, press it against the screen, and get the message to clear reliably on my first attempt?


With thanks,
Chris
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: ColinS on August 09, 2018, 05:00:02 PM
I never have any issues but I know that others have in the past.  There is certainly no need to press it hard or tap it.  I just usually rest my finger on it and it reacts ok.
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: JazzyJJ on August 09, 2018, 05:01:29 PM
FYI, I also have never had an issue clearing the warning message with a normal tap.
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: Ralph on August 09, 2018, 05:09:41 PM
I also have no problem with the touch screen response but I usually turn off the warning before I start as itís hard to hit the button while driving as your hand tends to wave about and is not as accurate. Iíve always thought touch screens are a bad idea in a car as you canít feel the buttons
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: ColinB on August 09, 2018, 05:46:02 PM
Iíve commented a long time ago about the insensitivity of the touch screen:
https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=7602.msg35876#msg35876
https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=7845.msg38088#msg38088
As have other owners in this thread:
https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=7574.msg35619#msg35619
I guess Iím used to it now though. As Ralph suggests, it may actually simply be that itís difficult to hit the sweet spot on the screen whilst driving. I totally agree with his comment that a touch screen is a bad idea in a car because you have to look at it carefully in order to tap the right spot, thereby taking your attention off the road, but itís the trendy thing to have so weíre stuck with it.

I am a bit surprised by your description of how long it takes the warning screen to appear:
I start the car, reverse off the drive, and as I start to weave my way between the cars parked on our close, the standard warning appears on the screen.
I find the warning appears as soon as I start the engine, and certainly before Iíve moved off, so itís no particular hardship to cancel it before I actually start driving. Or just leave it and the screen will dim anyway.

Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: ChrisNewman on August 09, 2018, 08:32:14 PM
Thanks for the responses so far.  My preceding search did find the posts you mentioned, ColinB, so I was aware some others had problems, but hadnít given a solution.

From the responses, I think itíll be worth get it running on the drive and trying to find whether I need to touch a particular ďsweet spotĒ within the ďbuttonĒ.  Previously Iíve tried pressing the ball of my thumb on the ďbuttonĒ to make sure Iíve covered the crucial spot, if there is one; maybe it needs to be touched there but nowhere else.

If we didnít have the TA on/off issue, Iíd happily leave the screen warning to fade; Iíve already decided itís much easier and safer to use the buttons on the steering wheel to change channel and volume, although I canít find them until Iím out of our curvy close onto the straight road.  Our ageing Primera is so much easier and safer, with a volume control knob and physical TA and pre-tuned channel selection buttons on the dashboard!

Our drive slopes up towards the garage.  I check that itís clear behind, start the engine, release the handbrake and let the car roll round the corner, and I think the warning appears shortly after Iíve engaged forward gear, but immediately thereís a branch of the close that comes in from the right, so Iím looking out for other cars on the move at the time.  I tried to estimate the timing when I was a passenger with my son last weekend, and I guess it took between 5 and 10 seconds for the warning to appear.  I really donít want to sit on the drive after starting the engine, wasting fuel and time, waiting while the warning appears and I then take several attempts to clear it before turning on TA!


Chris
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: Dayjo on August 09, 2018, 08:54:38 PM
I, and navigator, both have trouble cancelling the OK message. Swearing, sometimes helps!

The only reliable, canceller, is our little grandaughter. I guess, her fingers are more moist, than ours......

I intend to try a phone, touch screen prodder.
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: andruec on August 09, 2018, 09:35:38 PM
I've not had a huge problem but I occasionally miss the [Ok]. It doesn't seem particularly bad to me. Sounds like the OP has a faulty unit or needs to calibrate it (does it have a calibration function?).
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: Skyrider on August 09, 2018, 10:38:08 PM
I guess it took between 5 and 10 seconds for the warning to appear.  I really donít want to sit on the drive after starting the engine, wasting fuel and time, waiting while the warning appears and I then take several attempts to clear it before turning on TA!


Chris

Do tell us what you do with the ten seconds you save, stopping at a red traffic light must be a disaster and as for traffic...  Ten seconds of fuel use, do you really measure your fuel consumption to a tenth of a teaspoon?
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: ChrisNewman on August 09, 2018, 11:21:52 PM
[Do tell us what you do with the ten seconds you save, stopping at a red traffic light must be a disaster and as for traffic...  Ten seconds of fuel use, do you really measure your fuel consumption to a tenth of a teaspoon?
Thatís only the time before the message appears.  It usually takes more time to clear it than for it to appear.  And environmentalists seem very keen that we should reduce emissions by not having engines ticking over when stationary.  Of course I wouldnít mind a delay like that if it was for a useful purpose, or necessary such as when clearing misted or frosty windows.  I scorn motorists who canít even wait to do up their seat belts before they get on the move.  But having to clear that same message every time I want to use the car is irritating enough, without having to sit there with the engine running waiting for it to appear, and then trying to remove it through a system that doesnít work properly.

Chris
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: madasafish on August 10, 2018, 06:24:47 AM
The index finger on my right had was badly scarred through a burn many years ago. It now looks normal but there is little sensitivity due to scar tissue. As a result, touchscreens often refuse to recognise it and a tap usually fails and I have to carefully place my finger on one to activate it.

Applies to Iphone, satnav and others.. I try to avoid touch screens..(my thumb is no better and I lack half  an index finger  on my left hand so am short of options)
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: andruec on August 10, 2018, 08:42:51 AM
It wouldn't be so bad if at least the screen reverted to showing the time if you ignored the warning. Ideally a full-size graphic with the option to choose the way it looked. In fact I think that'd be a big improvement as it would give the vehicle an easily readable clock.

But no. Due to the ineptitude of those who designed the software the screen just goes almost entirely black. Apart from the time. Yes, really, it's there! In the usual position, top right. Far too dim to read except at night. It lights up if the current audio source sends a 'track change' signal.

I despair at some of what passes for UI design these days. It's just thoughtless.
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: ColinB on August 10, 2018, 08:46:30 AM
A couple of further thoughts on the original enquiry.

How clean is your screen ? Any dust or fingerprint deposits might make it less sensitive.

An irritation with the RDS TA system implemented on the Jazz is that if you get an announcement that isn't relevant to where you are, you want to get rid of it quickly: the only obvious way  to do that is using the touchscreen so you're back to the prod-several-times-and-hope problem. I went for a long time cursing that until someone in this forum pointed out that you can cancel the announcement quickly using the "Hang-Up" phone button (the centre one of the three on the lower left quadrant of the steering wheel). I don't think that's in the handbook so might not be widely known. Maybe if your son is informed about that he'd be more inclined to leave TA switched on when he has the car ?
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: Skyrider on August 10, 2018, 08:57:12 AM
A couple of further thoughts on the original enquiry.

How clean is your screen ? Any dust or fingerprint deposits might make it less sensitive.


I clean my screen regularly, about once a month, with anti static plastic polish. I don't have any problems with screen insensitivity.

Do I detect a little "I want it now!" Impatience? The only problem I have had (once) was prodding the screen after moving off and changing the language instead of clearing the "If you crash the car it's your fault" message.
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: Dayjo on August 10, 2018, 09:36:21 AM
If only, everyone's fingers, worked to the same parameters! Mine are affected by a lifetime in Engineering......

The prodder, works instantly.....

(https://s25.postimg.cc/sziiknmrj/IMG_20180810_090227647.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)


And now lives, here. For instant access.....

(https://s25.postimg.cc/5y1xewfe7/IMG_20180810_090258045.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)


It perfectly, matches the colour of the car, too!  ;)

Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: Skyrider on August 10, 2018, 09:45:02 AM
A roll of polo mints fit there perfectly, two are better they don't rattle when you go around corners. :-)
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: Dayjo on August 10, 2018, 09:47:09 AM
A roll of polo mints fit there perfectly, two are better they don't rattle when you go around corners. :-)

How well, do they activate touch screens?
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: Jocko on August 10, 2018, 09:54:11 AM
I use these tiny little ones with my phone. They plug into the jack socket for safe keeping.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51a2L6LcywL.jpg)
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: Ralph on August 10, 2018, 10:49:08 AM
I also work in engineering and my phones fingerprint sensor never works for me, but I have no trouble with touch screens I think itís more of a accuracy problem
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: Skyrider on August 10, 2018, 11:45:14 AM
A roll of polo mints fit there perfectly, two are better they don't rattle when you go around corners. :-)

How well, do they activate touch screens?

No idea, mine works fine.
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: Skyrider on August 10, 2018, 11:47:11 AM
I also work in engineering and my phones fingerprint sensor never works for me, but I have no trouble with touch screens I think itís more of a accuracy problem

An inaccurate engineer, sounds a bit shoddy. :-)
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: Ralph on August 10, 2018, 11:57:10 AM
I also work in engineering and my phones fingerprint sensor never works for me, but I have no trouble with touch screens I think itís more of a accuracy problem

An inaccurate engineer, sounds a bit shoddy. :-)

Not me thatís got the problem works perfectly for me

I can confirm that a pack of polo mints does work just tried it on my iphone (they were the sugar free kind though) ;)
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: ChrisNewman on August 10, 2018, 12:08:08 PM
A couple of further thoughts on the original enquiry.

How clean is your screen ? Any dust or fingerprint deposits might make it less sensitive.


I clean my screen regularly, about once a month, with anti static plastic polish. I don't have any problems with screen insensitivity.

Do I detect a little "I want it now!" Impatience? The only problem I have had (once) was prodding the screen after moving off and changing the language instead of clearing the "If you crash the car it's your fault" message.
After a year of growing frustration with the warning on the touchscreen, I reported it as the only problem with the car when I took it in for its first service.  The dealership said they would clean the screen to see if that helped, but there was nothing else that could be done.  We didnít notice any improvement as a result of the service and screen clean.  (My next step was to ask Honda UK/EU for assistance, who led me up the garden path, telling me that I could adjust the sensitivity of the screen, and it was explained in our ďowners handbookĒ.  We have an owners manual, but not a ďhandbookĒ, and after spending almost half an hour in a fruitless search, I commented in my reply that it was frustrating that I hadnít been able to find a copy of the manual to download, so that I could search it electronically.  When Honda eventually admitted that we canít adjust the sensitivity of the screen on our car, I came to this forum to seek help, and, amazingly the most recent post was yours announcing the availability of PDF manuals!  Thank you so much for that!)

It sounds as though I should look out for some anti static plastic polish, but did you have problems with the screen before you cleaned and polished it?  As only some of us experience problems, I wonder how much this is due to:
     Differences between the screens as manufactured (which we canít change)
     The cleanliness of our screens (which we could improve)
     Differences between our fingers (licking mine doesnít seem to help)
     How and where we touch the screen (we may be able to learn better technique)

Iím very patient when itís appropriate, but I donít like waiting for unnecessary reasons, with ineffectual systems increasing the delay.  And on that note, thanks again for giving me access to a PDF manual I can search electronically!

Chris
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: ChrisNewman on August 10, 2018, 12:10:57 PM
An irritation with the RDS TA system implemented on the Jazz is that if you get an announcement that isn't relevant to where you are, you want to get rid of it quickly: the only obvious way  to do that is using the touchscreen so you're back to the prod-several-times-and-hope problem. I went for a long time cursing that until someone in this forum pointed out that you can cancel the announcement quickly using the "Hang-Up" phone button (the centre one of the three on the lower left quadrant of the steering wheel). I don't think that's in the handbook so might not be widely known. Maybe if your son is informed about that he'd be more inclined to leave TA switched on when he has the car ?
Thank you so much for the information!  I hope my son will accept that approach.  Even if he doesnít, itíll make things easier for me when the RDS TA system doesnít return promptly to the original station, and we thought we could only restore it through the touch screen.  Iíd experimented with those steering wheel buttons to try to remove the message or set TA without success.
   
Chris
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: ChrisNewman on August 10, 2018, 12:25:18 PM
If only, everyone's fingers, worked to the same parameters! Mine are affected by a lifetime in Engineering......

The prodder, works instantly.....
Thanks, thatís just the sort of thing I was asking about in my initial post, if thereís no way of avoiding the message or getting the screen to work reliably with our fingers.  But I guess I wonít get far asking for a ďprodderĒ in the shops, or on the internet.  Do you know what generic name that type of thing is sold under?

With thanks,
Chris
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: Dayjo on August 10, 2018, 12:28:51 PM
Try, stylus pen.....
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: Ralph on August 10, 2018, 01:36:30 PM
Just been having a play with the system whilst parked up it seems like you donít even have to be that accurate with the buttons as it seems to work if you get near enough I even tried typing on the web browser keyboard without any problems perhaps some screens are faulty If they are so hard to operate ?

Out of interest it wouldnít connect to the Honda website just kept warning of an insecure connection whilst others worked ok
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: ChrisNewman on August 10, 2018, 04:42:47 PM
Like Ralph, Iíve just been having a play, on the drive, only switching on the radio, not the ignition.  Frustratingly, touching the OK button worked almost every time, whether I gave it a light touch, a broad thumb press, or a finger-tip tap, and whether I aimed for the centre of the button, or towards one side.  If only it would operate like that for us when weíre driving!  But as Ralph concluded, accuracy doesnít seem to be important.  I donít know whether the screen is less sensitive when the car has just got moving, or whether this afternoonís conditions were exceptionally favourable.

People seemed surprised that I wasnít noticing the warning before the car had rolled off the drive onto the road, so I had several goes at timing it.  It seemed to take between 7 and 8 seconds for the OK button to appear (the message itself seems to appear over a fraction of a second rather than instantly, with the OK button being the last part to appear).  With fuel-injected modern cars, Iíve got in the habit of just turning the ignition key briefly, and assuming the car will have started, so I think that gives me plenty of time to release the handbrake and for the car to roll back onto the road.

Is my warning unusually slow to appear, or is 7-8 seconds normal?


With thanks,
Chris
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: Skyrider on August 10, 2018, 04:58:14 PM
By the time I have started the car and put my seatbelt on the "If you crash the car it's your fault" OK button is ready for use in my car. Maybe you are doing things in the wrong order. After starting the car it must take about ten seconds to put my seatbelt on by which time the radio gadget thingy has fired up.
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: John Ratsey on August 10, 2018, 05:08:44 PM
Is my warning unusually slow to appear, or is 7-8 seconds normal?
That sounds about right. In my experience, starting the vehicle causes the infotainment system to reboot. Try turning the key a couple of clicks so the dashboard lights come on, the infotainment system starts, the OK button appears which you then press before starting the engine. Then start the engine and the damned touchscrren unit reboots!

The real stupidity is having the button whether actually required by rules or regulations or just the interpretation thereof. The message could more usefully have been along these lines: "Honda appeciate that providing this touchscreen system increases the risk of you being involved in a crash due to having to look at the screen to use it." My HR-V also has touch controls for the heating and ventilation (a separate panel below the main touchscreen which means looking down even further but there's no warning about this being a safety hazard.

And I use my thumb rather than a finger tip to touch that OK button. In my experience the bigger the lump of flesh used then the greater the chance that it would register.
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: Ralph on August 10, 2018, 05:44:38 PM
I start engine fasten seatbelt turn off the auto engine stop function then clear the warning screen (I counted about 10 seconds for button to appear after starting the engine)
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: Downsizer on August 10, 2018, 06:00:30 PM
An irritation with the RDS TA system implemented on the Jazz is that if you get an announcement that isn't relevant to where you are, you want to get rid of it quickly:
I get annoyed by the fact that, unlike the Mk 2, the Mk 3 system does not display the source station of the traffic announcement.  This means I have to listen to it long enough to recognise the area described before switching it off.  Am I missing an easy solution?
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: Kenneve on August 10, 2018, 06:34:47 PM
A rather tongue in cheek thought.

With all the experience and skills available on this forum, is there not someone with programming experience who could modify the software program, to get rid of this stupid safety message.?? Probably a couple of clicks with the mouse would do it.

I guess those of us with newish cars, may lose the remaining guarantee, on the infotainment system, but there must be many who are outside of any guarantee period, who would jump at the chance of getting rid of this elf & safety rubbish.
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: ColinB on August 10, 2018, 07:00:29 PM
An irritation with the RDS TA system implemented on the Jazz is that if you get an announcement that isn't relevant to where you are, you want to get rid of it quickly:
I get annoyed by the fact that, unlike the Mk 2, the Mk 3 system does not display the source station of the traffic announcement.  This means I have to listen to it long enough to recognise the area described before switching it off.  Am I missing an easy solution?
Yup, thatís definitely frustrating. I recall experimenting with it a while ago, and I think I discovered that if you listen to FM radio then a TA interruption gives you the name of the interrupting station on the screen, but if you listen to DAB then you donít get the station identification. Dunno what it does if you listen to any other music source. I guess itís somethng to do with RDS being an FM service. Or maybe itís just a poor implementation of RDS by Honda (cue Andruec to tell us itís a cheap bodge job anyway !).
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: andruec on August 11, 2018, 08:05:34 AM
Is my warning unusually slow to appear, or is 7-8 seconds normal?
Sounds about right to me. I've got into the habit of switching on the engine, swapping to my driving glasses, putting my belt on then releasing the handbrake. That gives the infotainment unit just enough time to display the message so that I press [Ok] before backing out of my garage.
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: andruec on August 11, 2018, 08:08:39 AM
Is my warning unusually slow to appear, or is 7-8 seconds normal?
That sounds about right. In my experience, starting the vehicle causes the infotainment system to reboot. Try turning the key a couple of clicks so the dashboard lights come on, the infotainment system starts, the OK button appears which you then press before starting the engine. Then start the engine and the damned touchscrren unit reboots!
Why would you do that? Just turn the key all the way and the engine will start in less than half a second.
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: andruec on August 11, 2018, 08:22:03 AM
With all the experience and skills available on this forum, is there not someone with programming experience who could modify the software program, to get rid of this stupid safety message.?? Probably a couple of clicks with the mouse would do it.
I have the skills to do it but unfortunately what I don't have is:

* A development environment in which to build and test the source code.
* The source code.
* Documentation for the source code (not essential but highly desirable).
* Tools that can package the executables into the format required to upload them to the infotainment unit.

And all but the first item on that list will likely be closely guarded by Honda. There are ways to do this without the source code but that makes it harder.

There's also no guarantee that I will be familiar with the language employed. It's probably Java but I have only a passing knowledge of that language. I also have only limited experience of working with the Android OS although for something like this that probably won't be a factor.

Programming skills are relatively rare (there's been a global shortage for the last thirty years, which is great for my career). But most projects require specific knowledge and that knowledge is often a closely guarded secret.

Well..you did (sorta) ask :D
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: culzean on August 11, 2018, 08:45:12 AM
why would you do that? Just turn the key all the way and the engine will start in less than half a second.

Nothing to do with infotainment but I always wait until fuel gauge has settled (this gauge has nothing to do with fuel pressure but is a nice predictable delay) or pump noise has stopped before attempting to start engine, IMHO the fuel system needs to be at proper pressure before turning engine over,  starting too soon and the starter motor current draw will drag system voltage down and make pump less efficient.
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: Skyrider on August 11, 2018, 09:04:55 AM
why would you do that? Just turn the key all the way and the engine will start in less than half a second.

Nothing to do with infotainment but I always wait until fuel gauge has settled (this gauge has nothing to do with fuel pressure but is a nice predictable delay) or pump noise has stopped before attempting to start engine, IMHO the fuel system needs to be at proper pressure before turning engine over,  starting too soon and the starter motor current draw will drag system voltage down and make pump less efficient.

And I thought I was a car anorak! What is the difference in pressurisation time between the MPI and GDI engines in the jazz bearing in mind the GDI fuel pump is engine driven although there is a lift pump in the fuel tank? Both engines start instantly on turning the key / pressing the button.

Does the CVT shift lever interlock solenoid clicking when you press the brake pedal in park annoy you?
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: andruec on August 11, 2018, 09:15:49 AM
why would you do that? Just turn the key all the way and the engine will start in less than half a second.

Nothing to do with infotainment but I always wait until fuel gauge has settled (this gauge has nothing to do with fuel pressure but is a nice predictable delay) or pump noise has stopped before attempting to start engine, IMHO the fuel system needs to be at proper pressure before turning engine over,  starting too soon and the starter motor current draw will drag system voltage down and make pump less efficient.
I'm pretty sure that doesn't matter. My reason for thinking that is the push button start. Press brake pedal, push button. If Honda had any concerns about voltages and pump efficiencies I'm pretty sure there'd be a delay before the engine started. And there isn't - it takes less than half a second for the engine to start turning over.

I've also never(*) done anything other than immediately turn the key all the way on every car I've owned and it's not caused a problem.

(*)There was a short time after getting this car where it was suggested that doing that might resolve a starting issue but it didn't help so I stopped doing it.
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: culzean on August 11, 2018, 09:59:30 AM
And I thought I was a car anorak! What is the difference in pressurisation time between the MPI and GDI engines in the jazz bearing in mind the GDI fuel pump is engine driven although there is a lift pump in the fuel tank? Both engines start instantly on turning the key / pressing the button.

If you can find an engine driven fuel pump on GDI i will send you a box of hens teeth by return.  Engine driven pumps on petrol cars disappeared when carbs were replaced by high pressure fuel injection.   Generally it is accepted that ECU needs a few seconds after power up to look at all the sensors and interpret them.   With the push button start on many cars now (Civic has had it since 8th Gen 2006 > ) there is a delay anyway between turning key and pressing start unless you turn key with RH and cross LH arm across to press the button, but the good news is you cannot try to start car with engine already running,  it is one of the first thing I checked when I got the Civic.
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: andruec on August 11, 2018, 10:40:43 AM
And I thought I was a car anorak! What is the difference in pressurisation time between the MPI and GDI engines in the jazz bearing in mind the GDI fuel pump is engine driven although there is a lift pump in the fuel tank? Both engines start instantly on turning the key / pressing the button.

If you can find an engine driven fuel pump on GDI i will send you a box of hens teeth by return.  Engine driven pumps on petrol cars disappeared when carbs were replaced by high pressure fuel injection.   Generally it is accepted that ECU needs a few seconds after power up to look at all the sensors and interpret them.   With the push button start on many cars now (Civic has had it since 8th Gen 2006 > ) there is a delay anyway between turning key and pressing start unless you turn key with RH and cross LH arm across to press the button, but the good news is you cannot try to start car with engine already running,  it is one of the first thing I checked when I got the Civic.
The Honda Jazz doesn't require a key at any point (other than it being somewhere in the vehicle). Just press the brake pedal and push the button. In less than a second the engine will be running. And like I posted last time - I have never waited a few seconds in any vehicle and never had any problems (ignoring obvious faults). If the sensors require a delay to get stable the ECU would simply not turn the engine over.

The reason modern engines turn over immediately is because the ECU is ready and willing to go. There is no need to do anything special - the electronics will prevent the engine from doing things it's not ready to do. You should learn to trust them ;)
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: culzean on August 11, 2018, 11:04:47 AM
The Honda Jazz doesn't require a key at any point (other than it being somewhere in the vehicle). Just press the brake pedal and push the button. In less than a second the engine will be running. And like I posted last time - I have never waited a few seconds in any vehicle and never had any problems (ignoring obvious faults). If the sensors require a delay to get stable the ECU would simply not turn the engine over.

The reason modern engines turn over immediately is because the ECU is ready and willing to go. There is no need to do anything special - the electronics will prevent the engine from doing things it's not ready to do. You should learn to trust them ;)

The fact that on your keyless entry Jazz that when you open the car the ignition is probably already on and ECU awake and powered up,  and having to press brake pedal before pressing start button means there is a delay anyway before ECU powered up you pressing the start button.  Highly automated 'soft starting'  system can mean there will be built in delays anyway to ensure things are as they should be.  I was speaking about normal cars with an 'hard start' ignition key where you can turn the key straight away within a second of inserting key into slot.

If ever I turned my ignition on and the pump kept running too long I would suspect a failing pump not building up pressure quickly enough.  Car noises can tell you a lot, you need to listen to your car (and not just the radio).   I spent my whole career in automation and robotics,  that is exactly why I do not trust programmable things with sensors.
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: Skyrider on August 11, 2018, 05:00:48 PM
@Culzean

The engine driven high pressure fuel pump on the 1.5 GDI (L15B3 engine as fitted to the Jazz)  is on the end of the exhaust camshaft under a foam rubber (sound deadening?) Cover. The same place as the vaccum pump is on the 1.3,  the 1.3 has a vaccum pump as the Atkinson cycle does not produce enough inlet manifold vaccum to operate the brake servo.

I will accept a virtual box of hen's teeth.  ;D
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: Skyrider on August 11, 2018, 06:28:08 PM
This is the engine driven high pressure fuel pump fitted to the 1.5 Jazz.

https://www.hondapartsnow.com/genuine/honda~pump~assy~fuel~high~pressure~16790-5r1-004.html

https://www.carid.com/spectra-premium/direct-injection-high-pressure-fuel-pump-mpn-fi1573.html?singleid=815680867&url=7003225
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: John Ratsey on August 11, 2018, 06:56:38 PM
Why would you do that? Just turn the key all the way and the engine will start in less than half a second.
The objective was to avoid having to divert my attention to the touchscreen once the vehicle is moving. 
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: andruec on August 11, 2018, 11:04:19 PM
The Honda Jazz doesn't require a key at any point (other than it being somewhere in the vehicle). Just press the brake pedal and push the button. In less than a second the engine will be running. And like I posted last time - I have never waited a few seconds in any vehicle and never had any problems (ignoring obvious faults). If the sensors require a delay to get stable the ECU would simply not turn the engine over.

The reason modern engines turn over immediately is because the ECU is ready and willing to go. There is no need to do anything special - the electronics will prevent the engine from doing things it's not ready to do. You should learn to trust them ;)

The fact that on your keyless entry Jazz that when you open the car the ignition is probably already on and ECU awake and powered up
Absolutely not. That would be a silly and possibly dangerous way to design a car. People sit in cars or open the doors for various reasons and no manufacturer is going to power up the ignition and fuel pump just because people are inside the cabin or the doors have been opened. You could drain the battery in a couple of hours just sitting having a picnic or admiring a view!

I don't know who has told you that it's necessary to wait a while after turning on the ignition but the only vehicles that is occasionally needed on is diesels in cold weather. All 'healthy' petrol fueled vehicles can go from ignition off to turning over happily in less than a second with no ill-effects.
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: Skyrider on August 12, 2018, 09:22:55 AM
I used diesel cars exclusivly for about 30 years before I bought my first Jazz in 2016. The indirect injection diesels would need the glow plugs to be used for every cold start and in some cars these were initiated for a few seconds by opening the door. When direct injection diesels were introduced the glow plugs were only required for very cold starts but were also used for emmision control purposes and remained on for a short period after a cold engine start. I agree with andruec, petrol cars do not require any pre pressurisation of the fuel system to start, direct injection petrol cars usually have an electrically powered lift pump in the fuel tank, as do diesels, to supply the engine driven high pressure  fuel pump which which all direct injection cars require to produce the fuel pressures required for direct injection.
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: Kenneve on August 12, 2018, 10:44:29 AM
Hi Andruec

Many thanks for your reply, I had naively thought it might be possible to download the program from the Info Unit and make a simple change, which basically says the 'OK' button has been pressed. Obviously there is far more to it then that.

My only programming experience goes back to the early 1990s when I programmed CNC machine tools, using 'G' codes etc, on Fanuc and Siemens controllers. Had to be very careful not to miss out the 'G1' code (feed), after previously using the 'G0 code (fast traverse)!!!!

Has anyone asked Honda, why they insist on the requirement to confirm the safety notice every time you start the car?
I suppose it's another edict/regulation from the EU. Sooner we are out the better!!
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: andruec on August 12, 2018, 11:44:37 AM
Has anyone asked Honda, why they insist on the requirement to confirm the safety notice every time you start the car?
You could try asking them but they'll probably just quote the manual back at you. That's what they did when I asked why auto stop on the CVT required me to keep the brake pedal pressed. Their answer was that releasing the brake pedal cancelled auto stop :-/
Quote
I suppose it's another edict/regulation from the EU. Sooner we are out the better!!
Can't agree with you on that. A bad idea to start with and in danger of turning out to be a disaster that is neither one thing or the other. But this is not the time and place to discuss that.
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: culzean on August 12, 2018, 12:10:42 PM
@Culzean

The engine driven high pressure fuel pump on the 1.5 GDI (L15B3 engine as fitted to the Jazz)  is on the end of the exhaust camshaft under a foam rubber (sound deadening?) Cover. The same place as the vaccum pump is on the 1.3,  the 1.3 has a vaccum pump as the Atkinson cycle does not produce enough inlet manifold vaccum to operate the brake servo.

I will accept a virtual box of hen's teeth.  ;D

I read Jazz model GD1 (8 valve twinspark) rather than Gasoline direct injection - my fault should have read post properly,  anyway waiting for fuel gauge to settle before starting is harmless enough activity and hardly deserved abuse from certain members...

Engine driven vacuum pumps have always been fitted to diesels because they do not generate any vacuum in inlet manifold, and now same with atkinson cycle engines. Direct injection required very high fuel pressure to overcome compression in engine,  as the fuel is injected pretty much at top of piston stroke for maximum benefit and to avoid knocking with 15 or 16:1 CR common on direct injection petrol engines like Mazda Skyactive.
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: andruec on August 12, 2018, 12:12:35 PM
@Culzean

The engine driven high pressure fuel pump on the 1.5 GDI (L15B3 engine as fitted to the Jazz)  is on the end of the exhaust camshaft under a foam rubber (sound deadening?) Cover. The same place as the vaccum pump is on the 1.3,  the 1.3 has a vaccum pump as the Atkinson cycle does not produce enough inlet manifold vaccum to operate the brake servo.

I will accept a virtual box of hen's teeth.  ;D

I read Jazz model GD1 (8 valve twinspark) rather than Gasoline direct injection - my fault should have read post properly,  anyway waiting for fuel gauge to settle before starting is harmless enough activity and hardly deserved abuse from certain members...
Who has been abusing you? Disagreeing and trying to enlighten someone is not abuse.
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: ChrisNewman on August 14, 2018, 04:49:56 PM
Has anyone asked Honda, why they insist on the requirement to confirm the safety notice every time you start the car?
I suppose it's another edict/regulation from the EU. Sooner we are out the better!!
In my email exchange with Honda, hoping they could ease my touch screen problem, before they effectively said I was stuck with it, and I resorted to this forum, I included:
ďNow that we are only too well aware of the warning, it would be best if we could stop it appearing at all, or for the radio to revert to its normal display after a brief period. When starting from home, the warning doesnít appear until after I have reversed the car off our drive, and am trying to navigate my way around the cars parked in our close. By this time, having to try a number of times to get the virtual button to operate to remove the known warning and restore the normal radio display it is nothing but a dangerous distraction. If the warning is important, it should appear immediately on inserting the key to start the car!Ē

Hondaís reply included:
ďThe warning message on the screen is integral to the vehicle and is not able to be removed for safety compliance reasons.  The connect system is a computer and can therefore take a few seconds to respond when first starting the car up. This is because the computer is loading.Ē

Iíll be amazed if nonsense like this disappears when we leave the EU, but in my opinion it would even be worth putting up with things like this dangerous ďsafetyĒ procedure to stay in.
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: andruec on August 14, 2018, 04:55:18 PM
Hondaís reply included:
ďThe warning message on the screen is integral to the vehicle and is not able to be removed for safety compliance reasons.  The connect system is a computer and can therefore take a few seconds to respond when first starting the car up. This is because the computer is loading.Ē
Yup, similar to what I got back. Just describing the behaviour back to you. You can imagine a telephone conversation with them:

You: It's raining outside and you didn't bring my umbrella.
Honda: If you go outside in the rain without an umbrella you'll get wet.

Has anyone ever got a useful response from them?
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: Rory on August 14, 2018, 05:41:38 PM
Has anyone ever got a useful response from them?

Some years ago they were helpful and constructive.  Now they're not.  Odd really, you'd think with Honda UK sales flat-lining they'd be keener to engage more positively with loyal customers - they haven't got very many of them.
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: ChrisNewman on November 08, 2018, 09:18:36 AM
An irritation with the RDS TA system implemented on the Jazz is that if you get an announcement that isn't relevant to where you are, you want to get rid of it quickly: the only obvious way  to do that is using the touchscreen so you're back to the prod-several-times-and-hope problem. I went for a long time cursing that until someone in this forum pointed out that you can cancel the announcement quickly using the "Hang-Up" phone button (the centre one of the three on the lower left quadrant of the steering wheel). I don't think that's in the handbook so might not be widely known. Maybe if your son is informed about that he'd be more inclined to leave TA switched on when he has the car ?
Honda may have omitted to mention in the manual that the "Hang-Up" phone button can cancel traffic announcements, but they have made sure we canít use it to avoid the distraction of having to clear the touch screen warning!  If I know that TA is set on, and leave the touch screen to grey out, the "Hang-Up" phone button only brings up the standard warning and OK ďbuttonĒ.  Once the warning has been cleared, it is a very convenient way to cancel traffic announcements, but if I push the wrong button of the three on the lower left quadrant of the steering wheel, I get plagued with messages relating to a phone, which I struggle to work out how to clear, never having connected a phone to the car!

With thanks,
Chris
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: ChrisNewman on November 08, 2018, 09:24:12 AM
If only, everyone's fingers, worked to the same parameters! Mine are affected by a lifetime in Engineering......

The prodder, works instantly.....

(https://s25.postimg.cc/sziiknmrj/IMG_20180810_090227647.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)


And now lives, here. For instant access.....

(https://s25.postimg.cc/5y1xewfe7/IMG_20180810_090258045.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)


It perfectly, matches the colour of the car, too!  ;)
I borrowed a plastic stylus from my son, and it had no effect on the touchscreen.  I then tried a steel coach bolt, using the spherical cap, and it worked fine, even after Iíd covered it with a party balloon to eliminate any risk of scratching the touch screen.  Then my wife bought a set of two styli, one of which looks like yours, from Poundland.  These seem to work consistently, although I find using them more distracting, because it takes more concentration, to touch the ďbuttonĒ with one of these rather than my finger.  Perhaps my best strategy (short of Honda producing a firmware update to eliminate the dangerous, distracting need to clear the screen warning) will be to try once after each start-up with my finger, and resort to the stylus if the screen ignores my finger.

Thanks again for everyoneís help,
Chris
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: culzean on November 08, 2018, 09:48:24 AM
There are several types of touch screen, the two main ones are resistive and capacitive - I have dry skin on fingers and touch screens sometimes don't work on capacitive type. You can poke a resistive screen with just about anything,  but capacitive screens ( i-phone and it looks like Honda touchscreen  ) need something a bit more special, try licking your finger before touching the screen ( like a lot of people have to do before they can separate a thin plastic bag ).

https://www.dummies.com/education/internet-basics/2-types-of-touchscreens-to-know/
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: peteo48 on November 08, 2018, 11:57:58 AM
The touchscreen thing is irritating - I doubt if it is down to the EU though. More specifically, it does seem a bit erratic. I've found that the actual tip of my finger doesn't always work so I use the softer skin on the inside of my finger if that makes sense. That usually works. Are these things sensitive to body heat?
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: Downsizer on November 08, 2018, 12:33:44 PM
Look for touch screen stylus on eBay and you can find a pack of 10 for £1.69, or 3 packs for 2.  I've been giving them away to friends with iPads etc.
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: peteo48 on November 08, 2018, 02:53:27 PM
Look for touch screen stylus on eBay and you can find a pack of 10 for £1.69, or 3 packs for 2.  I've been giving them away to friends with iPads etc.


Must try the stylus thing. I've got 2 that came with mobile phone cases if memory serves.
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: ChrisNewman on November 08, 2018, 04:15:49 PM
There are several types of touch screen, the two main ones are resistive and capacitive - I have dry skin on fingers and touch screens sometimes don't work on capacitive type. You can poke a resistive screen with just about anything,  but capacitive screens ( i-phone and it looks like Honda touchscreen  ) need something a bit more special, try licking your finger before touching the screen ( like a lot of people have to do before they can separate a thin plastic bag ).

https://www.dummies.com/education/internet-basics/2-types-of-touchscreens-to-know/
I tried licking my finger at an early stage, but it didnít seem to affect the proportion of times the screen responded to being touched.

I did find out about the two different types of touch screen, but I didnít notice any reference to this when looking for a stylus that would work on the screen. We seem better informed than Honda.  When I suggested I might be able to use a small block of a suitable material to press against the screen, and asked what properties their touch screen registers, and which materials have high levels of this property, they told me:
ďThere arenít any known problems with the sensitivity of the touch screens on our vehicles. The design of the system is to respond to a human touch and has not been designed or tested to work with any other material.
Honda (UK) do not manufacturer any particular glove or material that is designed to work with the screen so I am unable to suggest an alternative option for you.
Ē

Chris
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: John Ratsey on November 08, 2018, 07:07:46 PM
The touchscreen thing is irritating - I doubt if it is down to the EU though. More specifically, it does seem a bit erratic. I've found that the actual tip of my finger doesn't always work so I use the softer skin on the inside of my finger if that makes sense. That usually works. Are these things sensitive to body heat?
I use my left thumb to poke the OK button. The bigger lump of flesh makes it more likely that the poke will register.
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: ChrisNewman on November 09, 2018, 12:17:19 PM
The touchscreen thing is irritating - I doubt if it is down to the EU though. More specifically, it does seem a bit erratic. I've found that the actual tip of my finger doesn't always work so I use the softer skin on the inside of my finger if that makes sense. That usually works. Are these things sensitive to body heat?
I use my left thumb to poke the OK button. The bigger lump of flesh makes it more likely that the poke will register.
I tried finger or thumb, licking or not, pressing hard, touching gently or tapping, but no direct manual method seemed more likely to work than any other.

Chris
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: ColinS on November 09, 2018, 02:00:55 PM
I tried finger or thumb, licking or not, pressing hard, touching gently or tapping, but no direct manual method seemed more likely to work than any other.

Chris

I am one of the lucky ones and have never had any issues.  But a word of warning: Pressing the screen hard will make absolutely no difference and you are more likely to damage it.
Title: Re: Problem of poor sensitivity of audio touch screen
Post by: andruec on November 09, 2018, 04:29:14 PM
I tried finger or thumb, licking or not, pressing hard, touching gently or tapping, but no direct manual method seemed more likely to work than any other.

Chris

I am one of the lucky ones and have never had any issues.  But a word of warning: Pressing the screen hard will make absolutely no difference and you are more likely to damage it.
Same here. I occasionally miss the button but it's always responded appropriately to where ever I've touched it.