Clubjazz - Honda Jazz & HR-V Forums

Honda Jazz, HR-V & Hybrid Forums => Honda Jazz Mk2 2008-2015 => Topic started by: philskynet on August 08, 2018, 08:56:58 PM

Title: Flat as a fart
Post by: philskynet on August 08, 2018, 08:56:58 PM
Hi all
I have 2014 jazz si after upgrading from an 06 jazz se
Love the look of the car and it drives well but it's a very frustrating car in the power department.
Now I know it's not suppose to be a rocket but sometimes it just loses power and dosnt perform the way it should in my opinion .
My last jazz woukd pull like a train in 3rd and this sometimes has to be dropped to 2nd ,thst being said let's say I come to a roundabout slowing down.. I'm in 2nd with a bit of speed still on and it's clear so I go!! It's response is absolutely abysmal.. only way I can explain it is it's as if it's got a limiter on it
Forgive me if this post sounds stupid
 
Title: Re: Flat as a fart
Post by: Jocko on August 08, 2018, 10:08:35 PM
That will be the Atkinson-cycle for you. Honda's way of improving fuel consumption. I am sure more owners of this breed will be able to throw some light upon the situation. I have a DSi, and it pulls like a train, whatever the revs.
Title: Re: Flat as a fart
Post by: philskynet on August 08, 2018, 10:38:38 PM
Interesting you should say that because my 1st thoughts were something to do with that stupid change up and down eco light
It'll also interesting if there was some sort of bypass for this because it's bloody frustrating
Top end down the motorway it performs like any car of its bhp should but at low speeds round the doors it's pathetic
Title: Re: Flat as a fart
Post by: 123Drive! on August 08, 2018, 11:00:37 PM
I have a 1.4 I-SHIFT and everything is right except the performance. However, two years ago, I started to use Shell V-POWER and it performs a lot quicker, especially in 2nd. May be try a few tanks and see?
Title: Re: Flat as a fart
Post by: philskynet on August 08, 2018, 11:27:04 PM
I have a 1.4 I-SHIFT and everything is right except the performance. However, two years ago, I started to use Shell V-POWER and it performs a lot quicker, especially in 2nd. May be try a few tanks and see?
Worth a try I suppose
Thanks
Title: Re: Flat as a fart
Post by: csp on August 09, 2018, 06:06:32 AM
I have had 2009, 2012 and  Atkonson engined 2015 Jazz and I find that I need to use more revs to get acceleration form the 2015 Jazz, mine is a CVT so I use the down shift paddle to get more go and for engine breaking on hills. The current Jazz is my first auto for some time but it did take longer to get used to a new way of driving. I don't drive that very fast but I find I can get the accelleration when I need it.
Title: Re: Flat as a fart
Post by: Kenneve on August 09, 2018, 12:25:05 PM
In order get reasonable power and acceleration from the Atkinson cycle engine, engine speed needs to be in the 3000+rpm band.
In my view, the problem of poor performance only really occurs with Manual cars, simply because the engine is revving usually way below that figure, when the need to accelerate arises.

With a CVT car as soon as you put your foot down the engine speeds up into the power band and away you go!
On the odd time when, for whatever reason it does not respond, then a quick flick of the downshift paddle, soon sorts it out.

Make no mistake, the Atkinson cycle engine can be made to perform, when the need arises, it's just a slightly different technique that is required and I'm quite happy to accept that, in the interests of overall fuel economy.

Just for interest the 'History of trip A' results for the last 3 tankfuls of fuel have been 53.1, 51.2, 52.9 mpg and I'm very happy with that.
Title: Re: Flat as a fart
Post by: philskynet on August 09, 2018, 01:11:41 PM
Don't get me wrong I'm no boy racer wanting to beat other cars off the line it's just really really frustrating 
An example of this was a couple of weeks ago when travelling up Sutton bank in north Yorkshire 2nd gear should have got me to the top but halfway up it was like I was in 4th and had to slam I to 1st  in order to get the rest if the away up
Seriously wish I hadn't brought the bloody thing
Title: Re: Flat as a fart
Post by: d2d4j on August 09, 2018, 02:02:52 PM
Hi

We have a jazz si and have traveled up Sutton bank in 3rd gear.

Even the drag on the m62, it copes lovely in 5th at 8mph (I usually have cruise control on)

Many thanks

John
Title: Re: Flat as a fart
Post by: culzean on August 09, 2018, 02:23:43 PM
In order get reasonable power and acceleration from the Atkinson cycle engine, engine speed needs to be in the 3000+rpm band.
In my view, the problem of poor performance only really occurs with Manual cars, simply because the engine is revving usually way below that figure, when the need to accelerate arises.

I would have thought atkinson mode would be dependent on accelerator position as well as engine revs,  ie at low throttle openings atkinson could be held on for longer but when the loud pedal is pushed hard the atkinson would be terminated.   Apart from when you want to pull away sharpish and not slip the clutch too much I find Jazz has enough power. 
Title: Re: Flat as a fart
Post by: John Ratsey on August 09, 2018, 04:30:27 PM
I think the discussion about the Atkinson cycle, although interesting, is irrelevant as the vehicle in question is a 2014 Mk 2 Jazz (whether 1.2 or 1.4 isn't stated). It would be more useful if those who have had both the Mk 1 and Mk 2 Jazzes to give their perceptions of how the iDSI and iVTEC engines compare. I never felt the 1.4 Mk 2 was lacking at the low end in the way described here. Perhaps a dose of Redex, new plugs and an Italian tune-up is needed to clear its lungs.

Title: Re: Flat as a fart
Post by: Rory on August 09, 2018, 04:54:04 PM
It would be more useful if those who have had both the Mk 1 and Mk 2 Jazzes to give their perceptions of how the iDSI and iVTEC engines compare. I never felt the 1.4 Mk 2 was lacking at the low end in the way described here.

We've had a 2003 mk1 and 2009 mk2 and I've also driven daughters 2014 mk2 quite a bit.  All 1.4.  I'd say there's a slight feeling of less low down torque in the mk2's but it's a feeling rather than anything real.   I've never felt the mk2's were lacking.


I notice the OP refers to the eco light - I wonder if he's changing gear according to what the light is telling him, rather than the driving conditions?  I take no notice of the light.  These engines like to be revved anyway.
Title: Re: Flat as a fart
Post by: culzean on August 09, 2018, 05:10:36 PM
I think the discussion about the Atkinson cycle, although interesting, is irrelevant as the vehicle in question is a 2014 Mk 2 Jazz (whether 1.2 or 1.4 isn't stated). It would be more useful if those who have had both the Mk 1 and Mk 2 Jazzes to give their perceptions of how the iDSI and iVTEC engines compare. I never felt the 1.4 Mk 2 was lacking at the low end in the way described here. Perhaps a dose of Redex, new plugs and an Italian tune-up is needed to clear its lungs.

Having driven I-DSi and I-Vtec Jazz (1.4's) I still prefer i-DSi engine for what the Jazz was designed for - a city car with occasional motorway trips,  the I-DSi was much nicer lower down and the i-VTec can be a bit gutless below 2-500 revs, and if you slip into that range when changing gear on a hill you may have to change down again.  My wife is of the same opinion and she would love the i-DSi in her MK2.   I you keep I-Vtec above 2,500 it is fine.

The I.8 i-VTec Civic engine has had atkinson mode since 2006  when 8th Gen was introduced, but Jazz only got it in 2015 ?
Title: Re: Flat as a fart
Post by: John Ratsey on August 09, 2018, 06:16:56 PM
The I.8 i-VTec Civic engine has had atkinson mode since 2006  when 8th Gen was introduced, but Jazz only got it in 2015 ?
If the Atkinson cycle mode is present on the Mk 2 Jazz then Honda never told anyone. It would likely have improved the hybrid Jazz's mpg. This info, publishined in 2013, https://earthdreamstech.wordpress.com/ says Honda is planning to use the Atkinson cycle for engines between 1.3 and 2 litres which fits with its introduction on the Mk 3 Jazz.
Title: Re: Flat as a fart
Post by: Jocko on August 09, 2018, 06:29:40 PM
culzean was referring to the 2006 Civic, not the Jazz.
Title: Re: Flat as a fart
Post by: culzean on August 09, 2018, 07:03:21 PM
culzean was referring to the 2006 Civic, not the Jazz.

correct,  this one...  good write up here

http://asia.vtec.net/Engines/RiVTEC/index.html

Extract from article ....

'First, the intake valve closure timing is delayed to a very long period, way into the piston upstroke part of the cycle. The idea is to allow air to enter the cylinders freely, without using the throttle butterfly to artificially restrict air-flow. Then by opening the intake valves right through to the piston upstroke part of the cycle, the excess amount of air-fuel mixture that is in the cylinder will be expelled by the upward stroke of the pistons out through the intake valves and back into the intake manifold.'
Title: Re: Flat as a fart
Post by: coffeecup on August 09, 2018, 08:05:00 PM
More torque in the 1.4 i-shift than your diesel Jacko, 110nm as opposed to 127nm, same 0-60 time. Stick a turbo on, re-map the computer, change exhaust and intake.....that should do it !!!!
Title: Re: Flat as a fart
Post by: Jocko on August 09, 2018, 09:42:57 PM
More torque in the 1.4 i-shift than your diesel Jacko, 110nm as opposed to 127nm, same 0-60 time. Stick a turbo on, re-map the computer, change exhaust and intake.....that should do it !!!!
Sorry? Is this intended for Jocko? I have a 1.2i-DSi which I am more than happy with. When I made my choice of Jazz I discounted the 1.4 and went for the 1.2. Original poster, philskynet, was voicing his concern with his 2014 Jazz.
Title: Re: Flat as a fart
Post by: blackworx on August 10, 2018, 07:56:29 AM
I notice the OP refers to the eco light - I wonder if he's changing gear according to what the light is telling him, rather than the driving conditions?  I take no notice of the light.  These engines like to be revved anyway.

Same. The ECO light's on/off logic seems to be depressingly simple anyway. It's on when the engine's warm and the throttle's closed or barely open, and off the rest of the time.  Although tbf it is separate from the gear change indicators, which I believe are EU-mandated.
Title: Re: Flat as a fart
Post by: philskynet on August 10, 2018, 03:37:07 PM
Hi all
Sorry if I missed it out but it's manual  1.4i vtec
Title: Re: Flat as a fart
Post by: philskynet on August 10, 2018, 03:40:05 PM
It would be more useful if those who have had both the Mk 1 and Mk 2 Jazzes to give their perceptions of how the iDSI and iVTEC engines compare. I never felt the 1.4 Mk 2 was lacking at the low end in the way described here.

We've had a 2003 mk1 and 2009 mk2 and I've also driven daughters 2014 mk2 quite a bit.  All 1.4.  I'd say there's a slight feeling of less low down torque in the mk2's but it's a feeling rather than anything real.   I've never felt the mk2's were lacking.


I notice the OP refers to the eco light - I wonder if he's changing gear according to what the light is telling him, rather than the driving conditions?  I take no notice of the light.  These engines like to be revved anyway.

Definitely not taking any notice of the green light lol
Title: Re: Flat as a fart
Post by: John Ratsey on August 10, 2018, 05:18:21 PM
culzean was referring to the 2006 Civic, not the Jazz.
I understood he was querying that the Atkinson cycle mode didn't appear on the Jazz until 2015.

Anyway, back to the original question. In my experience the 1.4 Mk. 2 Jazz pulled OK at lower revs (although not like a diesel engine) and it was the 1.3 Mk. 3 Jazz which needed revs before it could accelerate. So the vehicle in question might be in need of more maintenance than the service book suggests. Might it be very low mileage and in need of a work-out?
Title: Re: Flat as a fart
Post by: philskynet on August 12, 2018, 12:35:25 PM
50,000mls with full service history
Title: Re: Flat as a fart
Post by: John Ratsey on August 12, 2018, 12:50:25 PM
50,000mls with full service history
Thanks. So there shouldn't be any very low mileage issues. However, I think we all agree that something isn't right. What's amiss is another matter. Plugs? And it might be prudent to look for evidence that the servicing was properly done.
Title: Re: Flat as a fart
Post by: philskynet on August 12, 2018, 03:21:08 PM
Yeah  its always been dealer serviced and was purchased from the original dealer as a trade in
Plenty of receipts and it's been well looked after mechanically
Title: Re: Flat as a fart
Post by: John Ratsey on August 13, 2018, 06:41:52 PM
Yeah  its always been dealer serviced and was purchased from the original dealer as a trade in
Plenty of receipts and it's been well looked after mechanically
I was meaning some visible evidence (check air filter, pollen filter, spark plugs if due) that the work had been done. It's not unknown for boxes to be ticked without the work having been done. 

However, given that no one here has observed your problems on the Mk 2 Jazz, it's probably best you take the car to the dealer who sold it to you. Sensibly they would let you test drive another similar Jazz of similar age to provide a basis for comparison and you could ask one of the dealer's staff to do a similar back-to-back test.
Title: Re: Flat as a fart
Post by: coffeecup on August 15, 2018, 09:37:03 PM
Don't know what your problem is, all Jazz owners never go over 50 anyway, most things start to blur past 40 !!!
Title: Re: Flat as a fart
Post by: madasafish on August 16, 2018, 01:32:47 PM
Don't know what your problem is, all Jazz owners never go over 50 anyway, most things start to blur past 40 !!!

That's in reverse... 8)
Title: Re: Flat as a fart
Post by: Pine on August 17, 2018, 05:32:20 PM
I really enjoyed my Mk1 CVT.  My Mk2 CVT was a different story.  For me the problem was the CVT gearbox.  It is designed to keep the revs low for economy, but the engine has little torque at low rpm and I found it struggled up the many hills near where I live.  Drive it with the RPM above 4K it is a different car, however it is impractical to drive around town or in traffic with the engine revving at 4 or 5K, so sadly it had to go and I changed to a different manufacturer.

Even though it is several years since I owned a Honda I still enjoy looking at this forum as there are some good discussions here.  I am thinking of changing my car next year so I may look at the Jazz Sport although there are some features I like that are missing from it.   Currently I am favouring a Mazda CX-3.