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Other Hondas & General Topics => Off Topic (Non-Honda) => Topic started by: Jocko on July 06, 2018, 11:22:33 AM

Title: Indicating protocol.
Post by: Jocko on July 06, 2018, 11:22:33 AM
I posted this on another thread but thought it may be worthy of a thread of its own.

I indicate whether there is anyone to see me or not. If anyone sees my signal (pedestrian, driver in a parked car about to pull out, other motorist) then it has not been wasted. I no one sees it then it is like the tree that falls in the wood (If no one sees it, does it make a sound?). The instructor on my PCV trained advocated that, as did the driving instructor who carried out my assessment a few weeks back.
The only time I do not signal is when returning to my own lane after overtaking. Again something I was taught on my PCV training. The Highway Code says you drive on the left so there is no need to signal. It is a given. The only exception is, if you have a Beemer or the like, right up your chuff, then I signal, to put him off undertaking as I allow space in front of the vehicle I have just overtaken.
Title: Re: Indicating protocol.
Post by: peteo48 on July 06, 2018, 01:13:24 PM
On another forum, not a motoring one, there was quite a heated debate about this. There is a view that if you are signalling "robotically" without assessing whether there is anyone to see the signal, then you are in auto pilot mode and not really thinking.

I first came across that way of thinking with my late step father. He was a member of the Institute of Advanced Motorists and was quite firm in his belief that you do not need to signal if the following criteria are met:

1) There are no cars following, approaching or emerging from the turn you want to take.
2) There are no pedestrians on the pavement near your manoeuvre.
3) There are no cyclists following, approaching or emerging.

I'm not sure where I stand on this. I'm not put to the test that often as it's pretty busy round our way but I do look for anybody who could benefit from a signal and, if there is nobody around, I don't signal. This is hardly ever the case as it goes but I guess you could say that before signalling I am making all the necessary observations.


I think there may be strong views on either side!
Title: Re: Indicating protocol.
Post by: ColinS on July 06, 2018, 02:01:49 PM
I stick by what I said on another thread.  I indicate every time, even if I think the road is clear.  I was taught that way for good reason.  The time you miss seeing something is when you will cause a crash.

My instructor said "Mirror, Signal, Manoeuvre" and not "Mirror, Only signal if you see something, Manoeuvre".
Title: Re: Indicating protocol.
Post by: peteo48 on July 06, 2018, 02:08:18 PM
I stick by what I said on another thread.  I indicate every time, even if I think the road is clear.  I was taught that way for good reason.  The time you miss seeing something is when you will cause a crash.

My instructor said "Mirror, Signal, Manoeuvre" and not "Mirror, Only signal if you see something, Manoeuvre".

I think that is quite a persuasive argument. Pedestrian in a blind spot etc etc.

Of course there are other areas. Do you need to signal if, having overtaken a vehicle on the motorway, you are returning to he left hand lane? I'm pretty sure the advice here is that you don't need to signal if the road is relatively clear. That said, I always do signal in that situation.
Title: Re: Indicating protocol.
Post by: culzean on July 06, 2018, 02:25:09 PM
I stick by what I said on another thread.  I indicate every time, even if I think the road is clear.  I was taught that way for good reason.  The time you miss seeing something is when you will cause a crash.

My instructor said "Mirror, Signal, Manoeuvre" and not "Mirror, Only signal if you see something, Manoeuvre".

The only thing I do 'automatically' is look in the mirrors very frequently. When you start doing things automatically without thinking it can be a downward spiral.
Title: Re: Indicating protocol.
Post by: Ozzie on July 06, 2018, 03:58:05 PM
So if you are moving away from the side of the road, and you want another road user to go first would you signal and wait for them to pass . . . . or wait for them to pass then signal?
Title: Re: Indicating protocol.
Post by: peteo48 on July 06, 2018, 04:24:43 PM
I stick by what I said on another thread.  I indicate every time, even if I think the road is clear.  I was taught that way for good reason.  The time you miss seeing something is when you will cause a crash.

My instructor said "Mirror, Signal, Manoeuvre" and not "Mirror, Only signal if you see something, Manoeuvre".

The only thing I do 'automatically' is look in the mirrors very frequently. When you start doing things automatically without thinking it can be a downward spiral.


Almost exactly the sentiments of my late step father. This is an interesting summary:

https://www.iam-bristol.org.uk/index.php/articles/associate-s-guide/56-signalling
Title: Re: Indicating protocol.
Post by: culzean on July 06, 2018, 05:02:50 PM
I stick by what I said on another thread.  I indicate every time, even if I think the road is clear.  I was taught that way for good reason.  The time you miss seeing something is when you will cause a crash.

My instructor said "Mirror, Signal, Manoeuvre" and not "Mirror, Only signal if you see something, Manoeuvre".

The only thing I do 'automatically' is look in the mirrors very frequently. When you start doing things automatically without thinking it can be a downward spiral.


Almost exactly the sentiments of my late step father. This is an interesting summary:

https://www.iam-bristol.org.uk/index.php/articles/associate-s-guide/56-signalling

good article,  it also says '1 blink of the indicator for every 10mph before pulling out....'  (which is why I indicate well before I leave a lane and only cancel when I am actually in the other lane).

 ( This is even more imperative on the motorways where speeds are greater and time is shorter.  So on motorways, and only if it would benefit another road user, allow one signal click for every 10 mph before you change a lane.  At 70mph you should therefore plan for 7 clicks before changing lanes.  If you are the sort of driver who is inclined to 'FLASH 'N' GO' it indicates to all around you that you are not planning sufficiently far enough ahead. )

So that knocks the automatic 3 blinks 'lane change' into touch.....
Title: Re: Indicating protocol.
Post by: culzean on July 06, 2018, 05:09:50 PM
So if you are moving away from the side of the road, and you want another road user to go first would you signal and wait for them to pass . . . . or wait for them to pass then signal?

If I want them to pass I would put my nearside indicator on till they are past and then if anyone else coming up at a safe distance I would change to offside indicator and pull away. What I would not do is just signal to an empty road (would that be a test fail).  You also have to look forwards and make sure no-one overtaking coming the other way that could bring them onto your side of the road.
Title: Re: Indicating protocol.
Post by: Ozzie on July 06, 2018, 06:12:25 PM
Signalling to an empty road wouldn't be a test fail, but indicating too early before moving away, making other vehicles slow down would be a fail. So wait for a safe gap, signal for any other road users or pedestrians that may benefit from a signal and away you go.
Title: Re: Indicating protocol.
Post by: Jocko on July 06, 2018, 06:50:26 PM
I don't signal if there is a vehicle coming up behind me. In fact, I try to avoid starting the engine until it is clear to pull out. I then would only signal if I felt it would benefit someone (the exception that proves my rule). I always signal when pulling away from parked at my flat. There is junction opposite and a light controlled crossing a few feet away (we are talking about a parking layby here, not just parked in the road). I am very particular about using my mirrors. In fact, I still check the nearside mirror for "tail swing", twelve years after giving up bus driving!
Title: Re: Indicating protocol.
Post by: ColinB on July 06, 2018, 10:07:52 PM
Iím in the ďgive a signal if it would benefit another road userĒ camp. That means youíre constantly thinking about, and assessing, the situation around you which seems like a good thing.

Regarding signalling when returning to lane 1 of a dual carriageway after an overtake, I never used to do this if no-one would benefit (eg no vehicle following). However the lane departure warning on the Jazz sounds if I donít signal, so itís less stressful to give the unnecessary signal rather than having to explain to a passenger who may not understand why the car is suddenly sounding an alarm. So that system actually inhibits good driving behaviour by encouraging ďautomatic signallingĒ. Yes, I know it can be turned off, but it might serve itís purpose one day.
Title: Re: Indicating protocol.
Post by: Ozzie on July 07, 2018, 05:03:30 PM
Regarding signalling when returning to lane 1 of a dual carriageway after an overtake, I never used to do this if no-one would benefit (eg no vehicle following).
The vehicle you have just overtaken may benefit from the signal, just so they know when you are coming back to the left.
Title: Re: Indicating protocol.
Post by: ColinB on July 07, 2018, 05:54:06 PM
Regarding signalling when returning to lane 1 of a dual carriageway after an overtake, I never used to do this if no-one would benefit (eg no vehicle following).
The vehicle you have just overtaken may benefit from the signal, just so they know when you are coming back to the left.
Thatís what I said, if another road user would benefit then Iíll signal. But in general Iíll get well forward before moving back into lane 1, that move shouldnít be a surprise to them (thatís what the Highway Code says, right ?) and in any case theyíll be moving slower than me so our relative separation will be increasing. Itís difficult to imagine circumstances where Iíd need to cut into their 2-second space but if they did arise then yes, Iíd probably signal. Itís all about being aware of whatís going on around you and responding accordingly rather than signalling without thinking.
Title: Re: Indicating protocol.
Post by: Jocko on July 07, 2018, 06:00:17 PM
I don't indicate right when joining traffic at the top of a sliproad. Unless I am going to travel down the hard shoulder, or along the grass verge, there is nowhere else for me to go but into the carriageway. I was taught that that was a redundant signal, and not required. The only exception I would make is when joining queuing traffic, when I would signal to say "I am coming in in front of you".
Title: Re: Indicating protocol.
Post by: sparky Paul on July 07, 2018, 10:55:04 PM
I don't indicate right when joining traffic at the top of a sliproad. Unless I am going to travel down the hard shoulder, or along the grass verge, there is nowhere else for me to go but into the carriageway. I was taught that that was a redundant signal, and not required. The only exception I would make is when joining queuing traffic, when I would signal to say "I am coming in in front of you".

Exactly. I would only indicate if the gap I was moving into was a bit tight.

Nor would I indicate after overtaking on a single carriageway. Surely any driver would expect an overtaking car to return to the left lane, and not carry on down the opposite side of the road.

What bugs me are the people who sit there with the indicator on, waiting for someone to let them pull out or change lane. To me, an indicator means 'here I come'...
Title: Re: Indicating protocol.
Post by: Jocko on July 08, 2018, 09:10:44 AM
What bugs me are the people who sit there with the indicator on, waiting for someone to let them pull out or change lane. To me, an indicator means 'here I come'...
Yes, in heavy traffic my indicator is my big stick, to beat my way into the unyielding traffic. Personally, I always let one vehicle in in front of me. If everyone did that there would be no problem. Zip merge as they call it in Australia.
Title: Re: Indicating protocol.
Post by: Pine on July 08, 2018, 09:40:13 AM
To me, an indicator means 'here I come'...

Using your indicator doesn't give you right of way.
Title: Re: Indicating protocol.
Post by: Kenneve on July 08, 2018, 09:57:32 AM
So are you saying, you use your indicators to force your way into the traffic, regardless of what traffic is there already?
Not in my opinion good driving practice and an accident waiting to happen, paricularly when trying it on with several HGVs in convoy!!

Certainly I agree with the Ozzie zip merge, one of my friends used to call it ' the high speed meld', very much like those army motorcycle teams that display around the country. When timed properly the joining can be seamless, but it does take a bit of practice, and relies heavily on the actions of the driver already in the lane.
Title: Re: Indicating protocol.
Post by: Jocko on July 08, 2018, 10:28:05 AM
So are you saying, you use your indicators to force your way into the traffic, regardless of what traffic is there already?
Not in my opinion good driving practice and an accident waiting to happen, paricularly when trying it on with several HGVs in convoy!!
I am talking about a queue of stationary traffic, when no one wants to let you in. As I have always owned bangers, I just pick a nice shiny, new car, stick my indicator on, and force my nose in. Not good driving, but a necessity in modern day traffic. They always give way. Picked up from my days as a "white van man".
Title: Re: Indicating protocol.
Post by: sparky Paul on July 08, 2018, 11:04:18 AM
To me, an indicator means 'here I come'...

Using your indicator doesn't give you right of way.

Of course it doesn't, intent and right of way have nothing to do with each other. The highway code says that you should "use them to advise other road users before changing course or direction, stopping or moving off".

What I am saying is that it is a signal of intent, you are warning other road users before making a manoeuvre. You are not asking someone to make way for you, which is how some use them.
Title: Re: Indicating protocol.
Post by: Hobo on July 08, 2018, 11:10:30 AM
The vehicle you have just overtaken may benefit from the signal, just so they know when you are coming back to the left.

When I was a Driving Instructor I was told by the senior examiner in Norwich when discussing signalling that indicating to pull back into the nearside lane after overtaking on a dual carriageway is unnecessary as the normal lane to drive in is the nearside lane the outside lane is for overtaking, anyone you have overtaken should be aware that you are going to return to that lane when it is safe to do so if there is no traffic in it.
Title: Re: Indicating protocol.
Post by: culzean on July 08, 2018, 11:52:36 AM
I have found that courtesy can be contagious,  I always try to let people into traffic (except BMW drivers who will travel at some speed down the outside of queuing traffic, ignoring all the 'lane closed ahead in 400, 200, 100 metres signs' until they arrive at the pinch point and proceed to try and bully their way in,  all this while other sensible drivers have been merging in ahead of time - but you have to understand that BMW drivers do consider that their time is more valuable than anyone elses).

I have often let someone in and watched as they do the same to some other driver further along the road.  I also make a point of moving to centre lane of motorway when approaching junctions to give joining traffic a bit of space.  I have been driven ( no way would I drive) in Cities like Bangkok,  Jakarta and Manila where they make a 3 lane road into a 6 lane one no problem, they are forever tooting their horns,  but not in anger, just to say 'i am here', it all seems so tangled up but seems to work out (except when they have the dreaded 6 hour traffic jams,  drivers in these cities have a wide necked bottle in their car as standard equipment, don't know what the women use LOL )
Title: Re: Indicating protocol.
Post by: Jocko on July 08, 2018, 01:23:38 PM
I have found that courtesy can be contagious,  I always try to let people into traffic (except BMW drivers who will travel at some speed down the outside of queuing traffic, ignoring all the 'lane closed ahead in 400, 200, 100 metres signs' until they arrive at the pinch point and proceed to try and bully their way in,  all this while other sensible drivers have been merging in ahead of time - but you have to understand that BMW drivers do consider that their time is more valuable than anyone elses).
Once I pass the 200 yard marker I do not let anyone in, but there is always some mug who does!
Title: Re: Indicating protocol.
Post by: culzean on July 08, 2018, 02:06:37 PM
I have found that courtesy can be contagious,  I always try to let people into traffic (except BMW drivers who will travel at some speed down the outside of queuing traffic, ignoring all the 'lane closed ahead in 400, 200, 100 metres signs' until they arrive at the pinch point and proceed to try and bully their way in,  all this while other sensible drivers have been merging in ahead of time - but you have to understand that BMW drivers do consider that their time is more valuable than anyone elses).
Once I pass the 200 yard marker I do not let anyone in, but there is always some mug who does!

I have noticed some lorry drivers actually pull into centre of road at around the 200 metre point to stop the German car Muppets in their tracks. I never let people in after a certain point either, but as you say some mug always will give way.    I am always aware by monitoring rear mirrors if someone is trying it on and will make life difficult as I can,  what is is about German cars that brings out the worst, both in the drivers and other road users?
Title: Re: Indicating protocol.
Post by: peteo48 on July 08, 2018, 02:39:25 PM
I have found that courtesy can be contagious,  I always try to let people into traffic (except BMW drivers who will travel at some speed down the outside of queuing traffic, ignoring all the 'lane closed ahead in 400, 200, 100 metres signs' until they arrive at the pinch point and proceed to try and bully their way in,  all this while other sensible drivers have been merging in ahead of time - but you have to understand that BMW drivers do consider that their time is more valuable than anyone elses).
Once I pass the 200 yard marker I do not let anyone in, but there is always some mug who does!

I have noticed some lorry drivers actually pull into centre of road at around the 200 metre point to stop the German car Muppets in their tracks. I never let people in after a certain point either, but as you say some mug always will give way.    I am always aware by monitoring rear mirrors if someone is trying it on and will make life difficult as I can,  what is is about German cars that brings out the worst, both in the drivers and other road users?

Is there a league table of German cars? Our friends have a particular dislike of Audi drivers. Hadn't really thought of them before but they do drive in a very "entitled" manner (I'm being polite here!)
Title: Re: Indicating protocol.
Post by: culzean on July 08, 2018, 04:06:24 PM

I have noticed some lorry drivers actually pull into centre of road at around the 200 metre point to stop the German car Muppets in their tracks. I never let people in after a certain point either, but as you say some mug always will give way.    I am always aware by monitoring rear mirrors if someone is trying it on and will make life difficult as I can,  what is is about German cars that brings out the worst, both in the drivers and other road users?

Is there a league table of German cars? Our friends have a particular dislike of Audi drivers. Hadn't really thought of them before but they do drive in a very "entitled" manner (I'm being polite here!)

I would put BMW at the top of my list, followed by Audi, and the Vauxhall Insignia ( a rebadged Opel) and then maybe Mercedes, who normally behave quite well.  VW drivers seem competitive but generally are not badly behaved.  Drivers of jap cars seem more level headed and considerate, maybe because their demographic is older and they are privately owned cars rather than company vehicles.
Title: Re: Indicating protocol.
Post by: richardfrost on July 09, 2018, 11:32:24 AM
what is is about German cars that brings out the worst, both in the drivers and other road users?

It's not the car that makes them that way. It's the fact that they are that way already that makes them choose the car. It's a club insignia kind of thing. And also relatively recent in motoring terms. Mercedes and BMW were top class marques until the 1990s when they descended into the echelons of rep mobiles. And of course it was aggressive and time poor reps who then set the behaviour standards for BMW, and then later on, Audi.
Title: Re: Indicating protocol.
Post by: RichardA on July 10, 2018, 04:00:48 PM
Merge in turn is in the highway code.

Use both lanes when queuing until the pinch point then zip merge.

Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Indicating protocol.
Post by: ColinS on July 10, 2018, 05:08:52 PM
Merge in turn is in the highway code.

Use both lanes when queuing until the pinch point then zip merge.

Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk

I tried that but there is always some lorry deliberately blocking both lanes or some silly old bugger in a Honda Jazz that refuses to let you in :).

Seriously though, if there is a sign saying "Use both lanes" then I will.  That is usually in place because single file traffic is likely to back up to an obstruction, like a roundabout.
Title: Re: Indicating protocol.
Post by: Jocko on July 10, 2018, 05:59:10 PM
Seriously though, if there is a sign saying "Use both lanes" then I will.  That is usually in place because single file traffic is likely to back up to an obstruction, like a roundabout.
Me too. And I will happily use the outside lane myself, when so signed.
Title: Re: Indicating protocol.
Post by: Jocko on July 10, 2018, 06:10:16 PM
Merge in turn is in the highway code.

Use both lanes when queuing until the pinch point then zip merge.
This is the appropriate part.

134
You should follow the signs and road markings and get into the lane as directed. In congested road conditions do not change lanes unnecessarily. Merging in turn is recommended but only if safe and appropriate when vehicles are travelling at a very low speed, e.g. when approaching road works or a road traffic incident. It is not recommended at high speed.


There is no mention of "Use both lanes when queuing until the pinch point then zip merge", but it does say to follow the signs, and if the signs have been saying a lane is closed for a half mile or more, then I consider they have ignored the signs if they get to within 200 yards of the pinch point and still press on. Then they can take pot luck.
Title: Re: Indicating protocol.
Post by: Ozzie on July 10, 2018, 09:22:48 PM
The vehicle you have just overtaken may benefit from the signal, just so they know when you are coming back to the left.

When I was a Driving Instructor I was told by the senior examiner in Norwich when discussing signalling that indicating to pull back into the nearside lane after overtaking on a dual carriageway is unnecessary as the normal lane to drive in is the nearside lane the outside lane is for overtaking, anyone you have overtaken should be aware that you are going to return to that lane when it is safe to do so if there is no traffic in it.

and that's why he's an Examiner !  :D :D :D :D :D
Title: Re: Indicating protocol.
Post by: ColinB on July 10, 2018, 10:55:25 PM
All these dogmatic comments about ďIn situation X I always indicateĒ or ďIn situation Y I never indicateĒ are missing the point. You should be assessing the situation around you and signalling if there is a benefit in doing so.

So with regard to this ...
The vehicle you have just overtaken may benefit from the signal, just so they know when you are coming back to the left.

When I was a Driving Instructor I was told by the senior examiner in Norwich when discussing signalling that indicating to pull back into the nearside lane after overtaking on a dual carriageway is unnecessary as the normal lane to drive in is the nearside lane the outside lane is for overtaking, anyone you have overtaken should be aware that you are going to return to that lane when it is safe to do so if there is no traffic in it.

and that's why he's an Examiner !  :D :D :D :D :D
... even the ďsenior examiner in NorwichĒ isnít 100% correct, because it depends on the circumstances, for example:
- if thereís no other traffic around then heís right. Although as already stated I might signal anyway just to keep the lane departure warning quiet.
- if thereís a faster vehicle coming up behind as I complete the overtake then Iíll signal to tell him Iím moving over.
- if Iím returning to lane 2 from lane 3 after an overtake then Iíll signal so that vehicles in lane 1 are warned against moving out.
Title: Re: Indicating protocol.
Post by: culzean on July 11, 2018, 07:32:54 PM
All these dogmatic comments about “In situation X I always indicate” or “In situation Y I never indicate” are missing the point. You should be assessing the situation around you and signalling if there is a benefit in doing so.

So with regard to this ...
The vehicle you have just overtaken may benefit from the signal, just so they know when you are coming back to the left.

When I was a Driving Instructor I was told by the senior examiner in Norwich when discussing signalling that indicating to pull back into the nearside lane after overtaking on a dual carriageway is unnecessary as the normal lane to drive in is the nearside lane the outside lane is for overtaking, anyone you have overtaken should be aware that you are going to return to that lane when it is safe to do so if there is no traffic in it.

and that's why he's an Examiner !  :D :D :D :D :D
... even the “senior examiner in Norwich” isn’t 100% correct, because it depends on the circumstances, for example:
- if there’s no other traffic around then he’s right. Although as already stated I might signal anyway just to keep the lane departure warning quiet.
- if there’s a faster vehicle coming up behind as I complete the overtake then I’ll signal to tell him I’m moving over.
- if I’m returning to lane 2 from lane 3 after an overtake then I’ll signal so that vehicles in lane 1 are warned against moving out.

I 100% agree with you Colin, it all depends on prevailing conditions of traffic,  I will indicate if I am pulling into a slower lane and someone coming up faster behind me as very often it saves them having to pull into fast lane if they know you will soon be disappearing from the centre lane.  Some people still try to 'undertake' on motorways and you have to have eyes up your ar5e to make sure someone is not creeping through on the inside (some people get upset when you overtake them and speed up).   I can still remember driving is Australia when we lived there and undertaking (on the left ) don't know if it was legal but was not frowned upon like it is here and I have seen it cause some good accidents, it also made driving more stressful as you continually had to continually monitor your nearside mirror, especially when pulling back into nearside lane.
Title: Re: Indicating protocol.
Post by: Jocko on July 11, 2018, 09:19:10 PM
- if Iím returning to lane 2 from lane 3 after an overtake then Iíll signal so that vehicles in lane 1 are warned against moving out.
Not a problem I have, living where I do. We only have dual carriageways and two lane motorways around me. The only time we have three lanes is slip roads.
Title: Re: Indicating protocol.
Post by: Ozzie on July 12, 2018, 08:21:49 PM
The A1M near Peterborough is 4 lanes . . . . and now learners are allowed on them.
They will be signalling to change lanes, whilst I am with them at least.
Title: Re: Indicating protocol.
Post by: Jocko on July 12, 2018, 09:32:40 PM
The ADI that gave me my assessment was talking about learners on the motorway. He said he has always been taking his learners onto the A92, by us, which is 2 lane motorway with all but the hard shoulder.