Clubjazz - Honda Jazz & HR-V Forums
Honda Jazz Forums => Honda Jazz Mk1 2002-2008 => Topic started by: guest200 on November 10, 2007, 10:02:12 AM
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I have been reading with interest about the brakes of these vehicles, and when I see what people have been saying about their handbrakes I felt that I needed to put my experiences on here.
We bought our brand new Jazz from Penine Honda in April 05.
In July my wife did some shopping with our 10 year old daughter. When they returned home the car was parked on the drive which has a steep incline (1in5). The handbrake was applied and the girls went inside. After 10 minutes my daughter offered to bring some of the shopping in from the back seat of the car. She opened the rear nearside door and entered the car to get the shopping and the car started to slip down the drive. At this point my daughter panicked and jumped out of the car and the open door caught itself on the garden wall next to it thus stopping it. My wife was next to my daughter and pulled her out of the way but this could have been a serious accident.
I went straight down to Penine who tested the handbrake and informed me that with the handle fully applied it only just passed the MOT criteria, so they adjusted it so that it would pass on 8 notches but this meant that there was only minimal clearance between the caliper and the disc, which in turn meant that if the brakes were applied often, the disc would expand and then the caliper would be touching the disc, causing expansion of the disc.
I had the car independantly inspected and was told that the car did not have a seperate braking system for the handbrake and that if the vehicle was being used for town driving then the discs could heat up thus meaning when you come to park the car on an incline the brake would initially hold the vehicle but when the discs cool down and contract, the grip of the handbrake is lessened.
I called Honda UK and the girl who I initially talked to said she had a Jazz and her handbrake was not very good.
After numerous letters Honda said that they were not prepared to do anything about the handbrake as it was leagal.
For a company that apparently devotes so much of its time trying to conserve the planet, I think it should look at immediate safety issues with at least as much effort.
I have only found this site very recently and I have 2 years of anger built up inside me that I have had to unleash on this page.
I have owned 3 Civics and a Prelude in the past (all auto’s until the Jazz) and have been very happy with them.
Am I the only one who thinks the handbrake is dangerous?
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Disc parking brakes are never that good - which is why Mercedes Volvo etc which have disc rear brakes use a separate drum for parking brakes.
The problem of discs cooling and allowing the brake to become less effective is well known to vehicle designers - it is assumed that the contraction would be compensated for by the tension of the cable if the brake is applied firmly enough, and is allowed for in the newer vehicles with electronic parking brakes.
The MOT requirement for parking brake is 16% efficiency, being the 3rd line of braking, a threshold which I personally think is a bit low.
Most of the older vehicle handbooks used to advise you to put the transmission into’P’ on autos or 1st gear on manuals when parking on an incline - still good advice but somehow now omitted.
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Thanks for the info on braking percentages. I did not know that. I also thought that all cars used a seperate braking system for handbrakes which I found out a couple of years ago to be wrong.
As for leaving auto’s in ‘P’, perhaps this is the reason why I never had a problem with my other Hondas with them all being automatic.
My wife does now leave the car in 1st gear but she does not always remember to dip the clutch when starting it later and we now have a garage door with a dint in it.
Barring this 1 issue I am otherwise very pleased with the car.
On a lighter note Iam going to post a new topic on leather seats in the Jazz!
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We purchased a new Honda Jazz in Sept 07. We were happy with our car- we had read all good test reports on this model. Double the number of spark plugs you would get from a normal engine, no cam belt to renew and a good looking car. Hoping it would last us many year.But after just a few days we were very disappointed with the inefficiency of the hand brake.My wife said she did not want to drive this car.We live in a hilly part of Yorkshire and driving up a steep incline to a set of traffic lights followed by a stream of cars, we found ourselves creeping backwards, not a lot of fun!!!Parking in tight urban situations on inclines is not at all easy when the handbrake has to be pulled on as hard as physically possible. Unless you are a body builder, then I fear the cable would SNAP. Adjustment at the local dealears, after 1500 miles, did help but I think there is little room for adjustment. The local dealer is obviously used to dealing with this and will only say" Bring it in Sir and we'll adjust". Every 1500 miles??? What a joke. Contacted Honda, not much joy, just make sure it's in gear and point wheels to kerb! Advice I was given by my dad when I was driving an old Ford Popular!!! NOT A 2007 brand new Honda. Some safety record Honda, since you always bragging about safety. Any suggestions, this is so frustrating. Just reaches MOT standards, what a farce.
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I can agree with the general findings on the Jazz handbrake. I have owned a pre-face-lift 2003 model and I currently own a 2005 face-lift model, both 1.4 SE CVT-7s and both from new.
The first model had drums at the rear and did not suffer at all from any doubt over the handbrake holding the car however with 15K miles my 2005 year car was starting to roll away. It took a number of visits to a dealer who seemed totally unable to solve the problem despite much apparent brake cleaning and handbrake adjustment on his part.
At the time I was a little angry with my regular dealer -the I got my first Jazz from (another story) - and was using a dealer further away from my usual one.
Eventually fate solved the brake problem... one night a mystery driver scuffed my car bumper whilst parking or getting out of the parking space which left me with a trip to the paintshop. Since I really rated the paintshop at my regular garage, I went back and whilst I was there I decided to mention about the handbrake.
My regular dealer looked into it and found out that one rear disk pad on each side of the car had siezed on to its caliper slide. This basically meant I was only using one side of each disk to brake with and also to apply the handbrake on.
Compared with the handbrake, the footbrake is more powerful working on the rear brakes plus you also have the front brakes to help with the braking, which is why I hadn't noticed any real drop in footbrake performance.
My regular dealer stripped the rear brakes, cleaned the slides, put the appropriate slip lubricant on each slide and reassembled, using the old pads in the original positions.
The brakes and the handbrake were excellent after that! However the foreman told me that I should do the strip/clean/reassemble everytime I noticed the handbrake starting to feel less effective to save wear on the fronts and more importantly the front disks - I didn't realise that the braking friction material is in places harder than the disk itself!
So that's what I do - I usually get about 15 - 20K miles before the rear pads need stripped/ cleaned/ lubricated and reasssembled. I also keep the jet-wash soap and hose away from the rear and front brakes calipers now and I am generally more careful when cleaning the wheels. I don't want to blast off the lubricant - easy with the high pressure jetwashes at some garages.
Sadly I has to replace my front disks at 65K because they were just too thin... Can't help wondering if it's because I'm always braking a lot harder with the front than was designed for - so why are discs better than drums Honda? Did any one ask for them... is it just marketing hype? Or are ABS easier to apply to discs than drums? Or another, good reason? Lighter? Let the debate begin :)
Dunk.
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Disc brakes should give better stopping power, that's why they tend to be used alround in place of rear drums. Not installing a drum just for the parking brake is just cost cutting.
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Drum brakes are much better for the handbrake than discs and perfectly adequate for the amount of braking required for the rear wheels of any normal car (ie. not a Ferrari).
I have a friend who runs a garage and he said the 'electric' handbrakes fitted to Ford, VW etc are more trouble than they are worth and are always going wrong. I must agree after my brother-in-laws experiences with his Ford C-Max, and now his Passat.
Drums are not a cheap option, but a sensible, reliable, well-proven engineering solution to the parking brake problem.
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Have a used jazz next tuesday (2nd sept) have had a 98 fiesta before this it looks like the handbrake is one thing ill recognise. Just for the record you should always place a car in first or reverse (dependant on your direction on the incline) as a secondary support to the handbrake. the driving test demands this to pass.Frankly im shocked some people dont.
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Handbrake is terrible on our 54 plate Jazz.. Asked the garage to sort it out, and they tightened the cable- obviously that has made no difference whatsoever.. It is going back in again today, hopefully they can do something with it.. I have to leave it in gear when I park it on a hill, or it wouldn't be there when I came back! As for hill starts- it is a nightmare -a race to get your foot from the brake to the accelerator before you run back onto the car behind- the handbrake is totally useless. We have had new discs and pads on the rear wheels this week and thought maybe that would help- no such luck.
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There is a thread here about the handbrake issue on Jazzi fitted with rear disc brakes. The second posting suggests the self/auto-adjusters fitted to rear disc brakes may be contributing to the problem.
http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?f=4&t=65645 (http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?f=4&t=65645)
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Anyone heard about this?
From Honest John's Jazz review:
"Late 2008/early2009 parking brake ratchet recall."
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Ive just read that too, but I think that relates to the current model not the 2002-08 one
It should be listed on the current one's report
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appears on www.vosa.gov.uk honda jazz recalls & would seem to be 2004/05 cars
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There are three recalls for the jazz
http://www.vosa.gov.uk/vosa/apps/recalls/searches/search.asp?cboStartMonth=1&cboStartYear=1980&cboEndMonth=1&cboEndYear=2010&cboMake=HONDA&cboModel=JAZZ&cboSortOrder=rec_launch_date&cboAscDesc=ASC&PageSize=10&Search=Search
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Does the 55 reg Jazz have an automatic adjusting handbrake, if not does anyone know how difficult this is?
Thank you
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Being a 55 reg jazz it will have disc rear brakes. Check the handbrake counting the number of clicks as you pull it up. Should be about 8 clicks. If not it will need adjusting. According to the haynes manual appears fairly straight forward to do
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Adjusting the handbrake on a rear disc car should be fairly straight forward providing that nothing has siezed up yet!
But on a car with drum rear brakes there is something to watch out for, In the bad old days BJ (before Jazz) my wife used to have a Fiat Punto and I could never get the handrake to work properly till a mechanic told me that to get the 'self-adjusting' handbrake mechanisms to adjust on most cars you had to chock the wheels, loose off the handbrake, slacken off the handbrake cable adjuster COMPLETELY (the cable(s) must literally be flapping around) and then start the engine and pump the brake pedal a few dozen times, you often hear a clicking sound from the rear brakes as the 'self-adjusting' ratchet mechanism winds the shoes out. Then adjust the handbrake lever to however many clicks advised in handbook. If you don't do this the tension on the handbrake cable stops the ratchets working and it is only the cable mechanism lever that is taking up the adjustment in the rear brakes.
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On my third Jazz now, the last two owned have had rear disc brakes. I agree with the comments on poor handbrake performance and I have quite a steep drive so need to ensure the lever is pulled up fully.
I have found though that if I press the footbrake hard to ensure the pad is in full contact with the disc before pulling the handbrake lever I have no problem.
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If you really want to resolve this you can swap the disc axle for the drum version from the early models GD1 chassis circa 2001-02. Equally the centre console can be removed where you will find the tension cable for the hand brake.
Discs are better overall when looking for braking performance when driving drums are better for locking the rear wheels.
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I have been to the garage today, because the 2007 Jazz I bought in September last year, was sitting in the lay-by on the side of our drive, my wife having driven it for about 40 minutes, having put the handbrake on, and it then rolled down a slight slope, and hit a dry stone Wall on the other side of the drive, with a force that seemed to indicate that the car was in free run!
I had to rebuild the dry stone wall as it had dislodged the stones to such an extent that we could no longer use the garden gate. I reported to the warranty people about the incident, and they requested I have it checked out with the garage. The local garage checked the car, on a ramp, removing the wheels, but found nothing to indicate the failure, unless about 1/2 disc wear is unusual. There was also no sign of wear from inadvertent running with the handbrake engaged, which proved that it did not happen, besides, the handbrake light has always been extinguished, when driving.
As requested, I asked the Garage Mechanic to talk to the Warranty people, and as expected, they said it was not a warranty problem. I then said I would get onto Honda, and was advised to look on the forum first, to see if such a problem has been noted before. Looking on the forum was quite an eye opener! It seems it is an inherent problem.
I have now requested new rear brake pads to be fitted, before I approach a local panel beater to see if he can punch out the damage to the front fairing. Fortunately the damage does not extend as far as the headlight on the passenger side. I feel pretty upset that I should have to be doing this on such a relatively new car.
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I'd say its actually a design fault. I've checked mine out and everything (lever, cables, calipers, adjustment, sticking pads) is fine, but you still have to pull hard. I was half expecting a problem at the MOT. When my wife was learning to drive, we got stuck on a steep hill start. I pulled on the brake as hard as I could and it still wouldn't hold. Fluster (!) ensued as a car pulled up behind. In the end, engine off, in gear, we swapped drivers and I then had to endure a wifely reprimand the content of which you might imagine...
I had a Citroen BX once where the handbrake worked on the front discs. This was a surprisingly light and effective brake, though it could slip as the disc cooled. Bigger cars have separate parking drums which are the best. I don't know how Honda have got themselves such a problem with this.
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Handbrake is terrible on our 54 plate Jazz.. Asked the garage to sort it out, and they tightened the cable- obviously that has made no difference whatsoever.. It is going back in again today, hopefully they can do something with it.. I have to leave it in gear when I park it on a hill, or it wouldn't be there when I came back! As for hill starts- it is a nightmare -a race to get your foot from the brake to the accelerator before you run back onto the car behind- the handbrake is totally useless. We have had new discs and pads on the rear wheels this week and thought maybe that would help- no such luck.
I am gobsmacked that anyone would not leave a car in 1st gear when parking (or better still reverse, which is even lower geared than 1st) - whether or not the car has drums or discs. A brake cable can fail at any time, in fact it is when the handbrake brake is pulled on when the cable is under maximum stress and most likely to break.
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I am gobsmacked that anyone would not leave a car in 1st gear when parking (or better still reverse, which is even lower geared than 1st) -
On a steep slope, would that hold the car? Or would the engine be able to overcome its compression?
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On a steep slope, would that hold the car? Or would the engine be able to overcome its compression?
The 1st gear is to help the handbrake and not to use alone! (I alway use the handbrake + 1st gear combination and on the slope I turn the wheels towards the curb too).
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I bought a new Honda Jazz from Gilder in Sheffield in March 2016. In June I parked it on my (nearly flat) drive with the handbrake on.( I have a witness to that effect) The air temp was 23C
It rolled backwards and into a wall. Gilder checked the handbrake and made adjustments. It was suggested that the discs were hot and contracted on cooling, causing loss of "hold". Gilders spoke to customer service on my behalf and I was told they would make a goodwill contribution to my excess.
Gilders were great. However, my "case handler" left the company, I was "reallocated" and the upshot was Honda reneging on the offer. they are well aware of handbrake issues but there is no advice anywhere in the manual to park in gear.
I have been driving for 47 years and have never before had handbreak issues. The Jazz failed after only 3 months. I would suggest the problem Is Honda and not me!!
My advice, part the perishers in gear!!
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It should be compulsory (and common sense) to leave a vehicle in first gear when parked, handbrakes can't be trusted, a cable can snap at any time.
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It should be compulsory (and common sense) to leave a vehicle in first gear when parked, handbrakes can't be trusted, a cable can snap at any time.
When I first drove, my old bangers often had no, or very poor handbrake........
I always, still, park in gear, (or P).
Parked on level surfaces, I rarely use the handbrake. Preferring, not to stretch the cables.
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Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I'm on my second Jazz (a 58 plate 1.2) and I was checking the MOT history and noted that it has had the parking brake/handbrake fixed on a couple of occasions. My previous car, a 54 1.4 Jazz also had a history of a weak handbrake.
From reading this thread it would seem that it's a fairly common issue for the MK1 Jazz. I park on a hill at home and now I think I'll have to leave it in first gear. I know that Jazzes have quirks and other issues, but didn't know that this was one of them.
Yikes!
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When I bought my Jazz, the dealer, a time served Honda mechanic, warned me about the handbrake. He told me to firmly apply the foot brake and hold it depressed until I have applied the handbrake. I have had no issues doing it this way. When I leave the car, I always leave it in gear. This is something I have done for my 50 years of driving.
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Me too, although on my Jazz (1.4 EX mk2 facelift) I discovered that on a reasonable slope even leaving it just in gear (no handbrake) wasn't enough and the car would judder down the hill!
I'm more dismayed by finding out my rear discs (although brand new) are already showing surface rust, it beats me why we even need disc brakes on the rear of these cars, the fronts do 90% of the braking in any case and drums wouldn't corrode.
Apparently it's quite common for jazz rear discs to corrode and need replacing after a very short time, I've taken to driving for 1 mile with my handbrake on the 1st click to ensure the disc surface gets some use, then driving normally thereafter.
Yes it'll wear the brake pads down a bit quicker - but they're a damn sight cheaper than new discs.
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Me too, although on my Jazz (1.4 EX mk2 facelift) I discovered that on a reasonable slope even leaving it just in gear (no handbrake) wasn't enough and the car would judder down the hill!
I'm more dismayed by finding out my rear discs (although brand new) are already showing surface rust, it beats me why we even need disc brakes on the rear of these cars, the fronts do 90% of the braking in any case and drums wouldn't corrode.
Apparently it's quite common for jazz rear discs to corrode and need replacing after a very short time, I've taken to driving for 1 mile with my handbrake on the 1st click to ensure the disc surface gets some use, then driving normally thereafter.
Yes it'll wear the brake pads down a bit quicker - but they're a damn sight cheaper than new discs.
yes, as the compression leaks out of the cylinders it will let go until the engine rotates and the compression comes on next cylinder, usually reverse is the lowest gear and will hold better than first.
I also do the handbrake thing while car is moving to try to keep discs clean, as you say pads are cheaper than discs, but maybe the rust makes the pads grip better as a handbrake.
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The rear disks on my 4 year old Jazz are nice and shiny. Lots of hills, lots of vigorous braking from speed on fast roads and not washing the car and leaving it wet all help.
Never had a handbrake issue with rear disks on any car including the Jazz. Just apply firmly with foot on footbrake and leave it in Park (auto) - as no choice there.
Lack of maintenance or under use screws up most mechanical things- rear disks are no different.
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That's is one of the things that I loved about my Automatics. Park. You could park on the side of an Alp without it running away. As long as the tyres gripped the car would stay put.
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The rear disks on my 4 year old Jazz are nice and shiny. Lots of hills, lots of vigorous braking from speed on fast roads and not washing the car and leaving it wet all help.
Never had a handbrake issue with rear disks on any car including the Jazz. Just apply firmly with foot on footbrake and leave it in Park (auto) - as no choice there.
Lack of maintenance or under use screws up most mechanical things- rear disks are no different.
just replaced the rear disks on my wifes MK2 Si they were in a right state with rust, but passed last MOT OK (surprisingly) - car used every day and we live in a hilly area of Shropshire, I would guess winter salt and the fact that rear brakes do very little has a lot to do with it, plus the fact that rear brakes cop all the spray from front wheels - and no the car does not get washed (actually it gets washed once a year whether it need it or not).
will let you know how the discs look after the winter (have winter tyres with steel wheels and trims on at the moment so can't see the brakes, am hoping that steel wheels give more protection to the discs and they will be OK through winter).
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After reading about rust on rear discs I made a point of getting my torch out today, and peering through my steel wheels to check them. Mine are shiny and polished, surprising, since I am VERY gentle on the brake. I use them only when absolutely necessary (every time you use the brakes you waste fuel you have used to get up to the speed you are scrubbing off).
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All my discs are ok at the moment. I find one of my rear breaks sticks on when I have not used the car for a while. There is a bit of a thump as soon as I pull away.
This seems to be a bit of a weak point on the Jazz. There is something not quite right about them.
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If you are leaving the car somewhere flat then put it in gear and don't use the handbrake. That will avoid the pads sticking to the discs.
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All my discs are ok at the moment. I find one of my rear breaks sticks on when I have not used the car for a while. There is a bit of a thump as soon as I pull away.
This seems to be a bit of a weak point on the Jazz. There is something not quite right about them.
Happens to all cars I have driven with rear disks. Rust due to damp.Or sticking mechanisms due to poor maintenance or both.
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After reading about rust on rear discs I made a point of getting my torch out today, and peering through my steel wheels to check them. Mine are shiny and polished, surprising, since I am VERY gentle on the brake. I use them only when absolutely necessary (every time you use the brakes you waste fuel you have used to get up to the speed you are scrubbing off).
Hmmm...maybe it's the steel wheels that are significant. My son-in-law has our old mk2 Jazz, he drives it hard and the front wheels are always balck with brake dust, but the rear discs are still rusty. And they were changed at 3yrs old FOC as they looked so bad - I had put that down to too gentle use by my wife.
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I always reverse up a slope into our garage so the rear brakes do some work and heat up before being parked..
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Perhaps Madasafish has hit the nail on the preverbial head. After Honda replacing rusty rear discs, that had been left on the car when I bought it, after two years the rear discs have remained bright and shiny with no ridges. Like him I always reverse in to my driveway.
The builders in their wisdom left us with a 1 in 5 slope on the twist which then flattens out so it needs a bit of welly to get the Jazz up and then the brakes have to be applied before collision with the garage door.
It obviously saved them about 15 minutes work with a JCB.
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Honda may have changed the disc material to one that does not rust so badly.
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The builders in their wisdom left us with a 1 in 5 slope on the twist which then flattens out so it needs a bit of welly to get the Jazz up and then the brakes have to be applied before collision with the garage door.
It obviously saved them about 15 minutes work with a JCB.
It's ALWAYS better to have a slope to drive up to get into a garage.
Slopes down means flooding in heavy rain. Or in localised flooding.
( I knew someone who installed a pit in their garage. Lined it to prevent water intrusion through the ground. Waste of time as in winter it was always flooded by rainwater flooding down the drive which sloped into the garage. The sill was not high enough to stop it)
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Our slope goes UP from the road and all they had to do was grade it. The driveway has enough room for two large cars so there was room. However totally agree about slopes down. Going back to the brake question is it a case of the normal rotation of the brake disc causes the pads to develop a chamfered edge due to wear where as the 'back' of the pad which doesn't receive much wear maintains is squareness and therefore more able to clean off the deposits.
I am no engineer, this is just thought.
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I once had a FIAT 126 with automatic friction brake adjusters, and the recommendation was to reverse and brake firmly, to tension the rear brakes up.
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Reviving this thread, I replaced the rear discs on my wife's MK2 in October last year, they were pretty much rusted away and useless, at the same time I fitted steel wheels with winter tyres on them, the steel wheels with wheel trims pretty much enclose the brakes completely, unlike alloys which let all the crap get to the brakes. I have just put the alloys back on and rear discs are squeaky clean. Can also confirm that ride is much harder with 185/55 16inch than it was with higher profile 175/65 15inch nokian winters and noisier as well. it is the second winter the tyres have been on and they are showing very little wear, in fact they seem to be wearing better than the summer tyres.
My conclusions are that if steel wheels had been fitted since car was new the rear discs would have been kept in better condition, that winter tyres can be quieter and wear better than summers, and the 185 16" tyres should never have been fitted to Jazz as they make the ride considerably worse and are much more expensive.
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I have steel wheels on my Jazz and the discs are immaculate. I have no idea how long they have been on the car, but I have had the car for 9 months and I know the dealer who sold it to me didn't replace them, as he was very careful to detail every thing he had done to the car and itemised everything he had fitted.
I have also found that narrower, higher profile tyres are always quieter and more comfortable. I had a SAAB 99 (two in fact), and the huge narrow tyres were very comfortable and superb in snow.
Modern cars are fitted with wide, low profile tyres, which in my opinion swap comfort for style and a bit extra grip in the dry.
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and the huge narrow tyres were very comfortable and superb in snow.
Modern cars are fitted with wide, low profile tyres, which in my opinion swap comfort for style and a bit extra grip in the dry.
and useless in thick snow..
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My daughter had a Vauxhall Frontera, a goodly number of years ago, and it had wide sports wheels. Even with its knobbly tyres and four wheel drive it was useless in the snow.
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My daughter had a Vauxhall Frontera, a goodly number of years ago, and it had wide sports wheels. Even with its knobbly tyres and four wheel drive it was useless in the snow.
True, the extra weight of many 4WD vehicles works against them in slippery conditions because the heavier the vehicle the more power has to be put through tyre contact patch to climb a slope, and also braking can be a problem with extra weight overcoming any grip the tyres may have.