Clubjazz - Honda Jazz & HR-V Forums
Honda Jazz Forums => Honda Jazz Mk1 2002-2008 => Topic started by: guest2224 on July 05, 2011, 09:13:13 PM
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Hi,
I Recently brought a Honda Jazz 1.4 CVT-7 on a 55 plate.
Wondering if anyone has had any experience or any ideas on why the car will not reverse up hills.
It starts to reverse then just revs at a standstill before rolling forward. The car drives fine in all forward modes/gears and reverses well on the flat. When trying to reverse with the handbrake on it pulls hard against the handbrake. It seems the problem is only when trying to reverse up hills.
I have checked the automatic gearbox oil level, visually checked the quality/ smelt it for burnt smell etc and it all seems fine/ very clean.
Does anyone have any ideas?
Thanks
Phil
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Check the oil level in the gearbox. There should be an oil level stick under the bonnet. All of the auto gearboxes are sensitive to the oil level and quality.
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Thanks, the oil level is fine and the quality looks and smells ok. I will change the oil on Friday and see if this makes a difference.
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I have bought genuine Honda CVT-F to use (will change it on Friday). Cheers for the link but still not finding anything similar anywhere I look. I have phoned a dealers and spoken to technician who also has not heard of this problem. The gearbox works fine with no judder etc, it is only going up a steep incline in reverse that I have any problem.
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If the car was bought from a dealer you just take it back have it repaired at thier expense or get your £ back in full - all cars have 6 months guarantee these days
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It was a private sale (one owner, full Honda service History). I was just wondering if anyone had any idea on what the fault might be. The technicians in the Honda dealerships that I have spoken to say they have never heard of this. As the car performs very well in all conditions other than reversing up a hill I am reluctant to change the CVT transmission (about £500 for a second hand box) before finding out what might be causing this issue.
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I would go the chap you bought it from - gtet your £ back, or try consumer advice .
Last resort find a specialist auto transmission place near to you and ask thier advice.
Q
AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION SPECIALISTS: Could you recommend any automatic gearbox specialists prepared to service and rebuild automatic boxes rather than simply replace them?
A
• King Automatics, The Chalk Pit, College Road, Epsom, Surrey, tel: 01372 728769.
• Automatic Transmissions (Tattersall), Tattersall Bridge, near Coningsby, Lincoln, tel: 01526 342956.
• JP (Automatic Transmissions) Ltd, www.jpat.co.uk, Units 4a & 4b Pear Tree Ind Est, Upper Langford, N Somerset, BS40 5DJ, tel: 01934 852772.
• Sussex Automatics,www.sussexautos.co.uk
• FEDERATION OF AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION ENGINEERS,www.fedauto.co.uk
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fwiw, this CVT troubleshooting page at hondafitjazz.com may be useful reading.
http://www.hondafitjazz.com/manual/A00/HTML/M2/SAA2EM2E15100000000HBAT00.HTML (http://www.hondafitjazz.com/manual/A00/HTML/M2/SAA2EM2E15100000000HBAT00.HTML)
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Thanks for the replys so far.
I serviced the car today, all fiters, plugs, oils and fluids.
I changed and flushed the CVT oil hoping it would improve the problem I have with reverse.
After the service I tried to reverse and it was exactly the same. I tried and few more times and it started working!! It was perfect and how it should be, pulling hard up hills and able to reverse at speed. I spent a while checking this and was pleased the problem seemed to have gone away but.....
........When I jumped back into the car it was worse than it has ever been! It would not even pull on the flat ground.
Bill, cheers for the CVT troubleshooting page at hondafitjazz.com it does contain some ideas but many of them would require stripping the box so I would want to be very sure it was not something else first.
In some ways because it started working and then stopped again this might not be a bad thing. I think if it were mechanical (plantery gears, sun etc) then it would just not work at all.
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These intermittent problems are the worst to find and solve.
Have you checked the oil level at last again?
I changed the Input shaft bearings in my car today (started yesterday) and the car is reborn! So quiet as if I had a brand new car...
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These intermittent problems are the worst to find and solve.
Have you checked the oil level at last again?
I changed the Input shaft bearings in my car today (started yesterday) and the car is reborn! So quiet as if I had a brand new car...
What was involved and how difficult?
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DV, the fact that it worked fine then stopped gives me a little hope. You are right about inttermittent problems. I am at a loss with it now and will book it in with Honda for them to diagnose, I hold out no hopes what so ever on a proper diagnosis but I do expect them to say that it needs a new gearbox.
Well done on your overhaul, big job.
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I should change the title to will not reverse
It will only reverse on the flat and on tick over (sometimes), any increase in revs and it stops
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These intermittent problems are the worst to find and solve.
Have you checked the oil level at last again?
I changed the Input shaft bearings in my car today (started yesterday) and the car is reborn! So quiet as if I had a brand new car...
What was involved and how difficult?
Well, it was not that easy for 1 person to do it outside of the house but I managed it...
It was the 2nd time within 2 months the gearbox was out.
1st time I changed the reverse shift holder and the "clutch kit" including the thrust bearing because I thought it is worn and it makes the noise but it was not. Anyway the clutch was on the minimum limit (lot of driving in London) so I just replaced.
Yesterday I changed the input shaft bearings (1 is on the clutch side and the other is inside the gearbox housing. To punch out the clutch side bearing was easy with the "parallel pin punch" bought from screwfix, http://www.screwfix.com/p/parallel-pin-punches-5pc/16551 (http://www.screwfix.com/p/parallel-pin-punches-5pc/16551). Here I had to be very careful not to damage the seal between the bearing and the gearbox housing.
At the other end the bearing easily popped out, I used the circlip plier inside the bearing to-catch-and-pull, http://www.screwfix.com/p/circlip-pliers-set-4-piece/43041 (http://www.screwfix.com/p/circlip-pliers-set-4-piece/43041).
No. 14, http://www.hondaoriginalparts.com/honda_car_parts_selection_pfk.php?block_01=17SAA01&block_02=M__0400&block_03=19952 (http://www.hondaoriginalparts.com/honda_car_parts_selection_pfk.php?block_01=17SAA01&block_02=M__0400&block_03=19952).
The 3rd bearing what I was able to change was the offside differential bearing with the ball bearing puller. I had to place one square plier bar underneath the centre of the puller because there is the hole for the axle.
On the other side of the differential I could not change the bearing because the ball bearing puller didin`t fit between the bearing and the plastic speedometer drive, http://www.hondaoriginalparts.com/honda_car_parts_selection_pfk.php?block_01=17SAA01&block_02=M__0800&block_03=19952 (http://www.hondaoriginalparts.com/honda_car_parts_selection_pfk.php?block_01=17SAA01&block_02=M__0800&block_03=19952).
I could not change any counter shaft bearings but only the input shaft bearing on the clutch side was the worse. So only to change those two was enough.
Honda recommended me to change all the 7 bearings but I changed only 3 and the car is ultra quiet. Now I can hear the tyre and wind noises only.
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I don't get (hardly) any drive in reverse now. It tries and just judders. I am replacing the cvt gearbox on Wednesday. Anyone had any experiance of this? Easy enough job?
Phil
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I know that this is an old thread, but I'm about to deal with similar symptoms. Great forwards, slipping backwards.
After the service I tried to reverse and it was exactly the same. I tried and few more times and it started working!! It was perfect and how it should be, pulling hard up hills and able to reverse at speed. I spent a while checking this and was pleased the problem seemed to have gone away but.....
........When I jumped back into the car it was worse than it has ever been! It would not even pull on the flat ground.
I know this user hasn't been active for years, but for others in the same boat...
I've looked at the manual and see that there is a reverse clutch inside the transmission. Honda call it the reverse brake. I'm about to deal with a 2005 car that has had lots of city use and will see how dirty the CVT oil is when drained. My thoughts are leading to a stuck/sticky valve which is preventing the PH (high pressure) oil reaching the reverse brake and locking this clutch pack to effect reverse. Either that or the reverse brake is leaking inside the box and thus slipping. Would need to hook up a gauge to the test point and find out.
In the OP's case of it magically working again albeit briefly, I think it is a dodgy reverse inhibitor solenoid valve, but we'll never know for sure.
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Hello Eddie,
I was wondering how you got on with this problem, as I spoke to a used car dealer today who has a 2006 CVT Jazz which has done 76K. When I asked about the car, he said that it was fine, apart from the fact that when in reverse, it will move backwards slowly, but if you try and apply any revs, it drops out of reverse - which sounds similar to your problem.
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Well I haven't really dealt with it at the minute as I've other things to do and I can live with it the way it is for now. First priority is the local MOT equivalent - NCT - which is booked for 17th.
I would say that:
a) unless you are mad/keen on DIY and don't mind getting you hands dirty and
b) it is dirt cheap
to give it a miss and find something else, there's plenty around.
I retained the salvage on my old Jazz which has a good transmission, so if push comes to shove, I'll could swap them over myself and have a peek inside this one proper later OR get the original one back on the road and have a look at this one when I can afford to have it off-the-road.
Since I've been using the car. I've change the transmission fluid once and that made zero difference. I also swapped the reverse inhibitor solenoid with a good one and that isn't the issue either. I've hooked up a computer and had a look for any DTCs and there are none which leaves me to work things out from this lot:
http://www.hondafitjazz.com/manual/a00/html/m2/saa2em2e15100000000hbat00.html (http://www.hondafitjazz.com/manual/a00/html/m2/saa2em2e15100000000hbat00.html)
The problem sounds the same as you describe, if the throttle isn't touched, everything is fine and it can even gather a reasonable speed in reverse, providing it's on the level/downhill and the throttle isn't touched.
A very gentle uphill gradient is just possible, providing the car is moving, and/or zero throttle is required. As soon as the throttle is touched, it overcomes the reverse brake/clutch which slips and it won't move.
I still don't have an appropriate pressure gauge to investigate further. I'm keeping an open mind as to what the problem/solution is.
Have read further: http://www.hondafitjazz.com/manual/A00/HTML/99/SAA2E99E15117700000CAAT01.HTML (http://www.hondafitjazz.com/manual/A00/HTML/99/SAA2E99E15117700000CAAT01.HTML)
Forwards, you have stepless ratios between 2.367:1 (low) and 0.407:1 (high)
In reverse, you have two distinct ratios: 2.367:1 when off the accelerator and 1.326:1 when pressing on the accelerator - and it's when it's in that higher ratio, things start slipping.
Anyway, I've got another CVT to fix (that's not mine), a 1975 DAF 66. So until that is off the drive, I'm not going to have time to investigate this problem further, but when I do (eventually) get the answer, I'll post back.
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Any of you guys had any luck with solving this problem?
Symptoms (2003 1.5L VTi):
- no reverse, stepping on the gas just revs up the engine as though it's in neutral, if left alone it will roll as though in neutral
- every other gear works fine, no judder on take off. Tested in 'manual mode' and went through 1-7 without issue.
- D light doesn't flash, as with other similar issues. However when turning the car on, D will light up, along with P (obviously, as it's in Park), and then disappear a few seconds later.
- reverse did work when i tried it the day after it first occured, however when i later went back to test drive it, it was no longer working again, leading me to believe it's not a mechanical issue (hopefully a good thing)
Just experienced myself about a week ago, my partner drove to work and it was fine however once she got home, reverse was no longer working.
From googling the problem, I was pretty sure it was a faulty CVT Drive Pulley Speed Sensor (P1885 error code, though I don't have a OBD scanner to confirm this). Went to a few wreckers until I found one, however when i swapped that in, not only was reverse still not working, but when i slotted it into D, the D light on the dash kept flashing and about 10sec later there was a judder and it stalled (didn't touch the throttle, but foot was on the brake so that i wouldn't roll down the street). Swapped the original one back in and it was fine but for reverse.
Took it for a 20min test drive tonight, trying the 'reset CVT start clutch' procedure of speeding up to 60km/h and coasting to a stop, did this twice then drove home and tried out reverse again as the car was warmed up, but still no luck.
Guess I'm off to the dealer on Monday, as someone mentioned earlier, i expect them to tell me I need a new gearbox :(
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I haven't tried to solve it yet, as I need to get the crashed one fixed before messing with this one.
My issue is liveable with at the minute, as mentioned before in low reverse (off throttle) it moves backwards okay, when in high reverse (on throttle) it slips. That is it thumps as the reverse brake (reverse clutch) grips momentarily and slips (and if I care to hold the throttle a bit, it will do this in a repeat cycle).
If a solenoid or sensor is disconnected, it will throw a code, but I get no codes.
If I get a chance, I might check the solenoid block for dirt.
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TLCBFR:
Seems to be working 50% of the time, mostly when the car is cold.
Still taking a second or two before reverse engages (when working)
This pretty much confirms it's some other issue.
Ok so I tried swapping the replacement sensor in again this morning, as I had a nagging feeling in the back of my mind that I had forgotten to attach the plug at the back of the airbox (most likely what caused the shuddering and sudden stall when I shifted to D).
(short lived) Success! it started reversing, took it for a drive and tried reversing again a few more times on flat ground, down hill and up hill, low and high, without issue. Came back and let it sit for about 15mins and tried again but it had stopped working once again.
Came back home in the evening, tightened all the bolts that i had only hand tightened earlier (in case i had to switch the original sensor back in) tried again and it reversed, left it as it was and tried once more a few hours later and it had stopped reversing again.
From what I can gather (with this, so far, 50% success rate) it seems to work when the car is cold or hasn't been used for a long period of time, but once it's warmed up and turned off then on again, it doesn't work.
Also, although reverse worked it would take a second or two to engage, in that when i shift to reverse it will still roll forward a little before moving back (low), or when i apply throttle it will rev a little as though in N before engaging and moving back (high).
Still a better result that I've had using the original sensor over the past couple of days though, but this kinda confirms it's another issue now.
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Thanks for the update.
You don't say when/at what distance the transmission fluid was changed.
I'm also wondering about the dirty in the valve blocks internally.
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mrjones,
I ran into a similar problem with my Honda City. I am from India. My reverse works fine but the D mode does not engage after the engine heats up.
What was the final solution for the problem mentioned here in your thread ?
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Eddie,
I would also like to take your experience and opinion here. I see you have a lot of experience dealing with CVT stuff.
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I have the same problem, it slips reversing up hiils. Did you get any solutions?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Don't press the accelerator!
It's only when you press it the transmission slips, so it will make it up slight inclines. I'm about 21,000 miles more on the clock and it hasn't got any better or worse. I just automatically stop the car facing the right way on an incline.
I think changing the filter might make a difference, but given it's internal without service access (transmission needs to be removed and split to get at the thing). It's staying as it is for the time being until Jazz No. 1 makes it back on the road at some point next year and I can afford the downtime to investigate it properly. When it goes back in, I'll be fitting an external filter.
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I am convinced that this reluctance to reverse is a feature of pre iShift CVT equipped cars.
I have had three of these models and all of them showed a reluctance to reverse up steep slopes. They would reverse but needed a lot of revs to move but once moving they were OK. Indeed they would accelerate which could prove embarrassing if in a confined space. This usage did not affect the CVT's forward going performance.
My current post 2011 facelift car has a torque converter clutch and does not exhibit any reluctance to reverse.
Vic.
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Hi,
I do have 2011 jazz CVT, and I do need to press really hard to reverse while i park the car on a slope. things have improved with new cvt oil. But it does need a good press, else it will not go.
The reversing is smooth on flat grounds, without any problem.
I thought this is normal with a CVT.
Thanks!
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The reverse circuit on the SWRA cvt is operated by a manual hydraulic valve that is connected to your shifter. There are no electronics involved to apply pressure on the reverse/forward clutch. Normally the reverse clutch would apply directly and then the (electronically controlled) starter clutch takes care of the smooth movement.
If it takes a while for the clutch to apply (and if this is limited to only reverse, not forward) this is probably due to contamination in the reverse circuit or a broken/damaged o-ring in the reverse piston. It could make sense that increasing RPM and therefore increasing ATF pump displacement helps. Also if it slips then probably the pressure is too low on the clutch due to leakage. Count yourself lucky it is the reverse!
I had a similar problem with the forward circuit which was probably caused by dirt. I had the feeling that the ECU would try to apply the starter clutch and notice that nothing was happening and then try again later.
For me changing the oil might have made the situation worse. I also saw a video somewhere where a guy was explaining that if your box is very contaminated, adding new oil can clean up some parts and take the dirt elsewhere. So take that into consideration. I have taken one of these transaxles apart completely and now I understand why it is so important to change oil frequently because of the small tolerances. Its just such a shame the filters cannot be changed without taking the unit out.
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As I have already stated in this topic all the earlier CVT Jazz's I have owned have exhibited this reluctance to reverse up slopes. They would reverse but required quite large throttle openings to do so, no other problems were present so I ignored it.
The facelift Mk2, introduced early 2011, reintroduced the CVT gearbox but with a torque converter clutch so I don't think it has a starter clutch so that may not be the problem , if there is one.
Vic.