Clubjazz - Honda Jazz & HR-V Forums
Honda Jazz Forums => Honda Jazz Mk4 2020 - => Topic started by: bamboo on February 10, 2025, 11:42:38 PM
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Went to test drive MK4 at the weekend. Our bullet proof HRV overheated on the way. I pulled into a yard to get water to get me back to pick up our other car. After filling in usual paperwork proceeded to the car and the battery was dead! Salesman fixed it after 30 mins. Warned us of bad traffic. Sure enough it was awful. Inly got it iver 30mph briefly and then gave up. Checked MOT re ord online. It had disc issues so would need to have them fix before i purchased. It wasn't an uplifting experience and think someone is trying to tell me not to.
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Did you announce your test drive? If you did it certainly doesn't make the seller look good!
(they obviously didn't check on the car before your arrival)
You didn't mention the model year of the MK4 so it might be up to five years old.
It isn't uncommon for hybrid (or electric) cars to develop issues with the discs over the years as they aren't as heavily used as in normal cars.
What I find disconcerting is the fact, that the selling party hasn't mended them already and is showing off a "broken" vehicule.
Again: Not the best sign for a reliable dealership in my book!
So: Don't let this discourage you from a MK4 Jazz! - It may just be sound advice to look at another car and especially another seller!
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If it was a Honda dealer i would definitely find another one!
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Sounds like it was the small,conventional , 12v battery that was flat. This powers the cars computer systems which has to power up and make checks before it 'authorises' the larger High Voltage battery to actually start the engine. The checks normally take less than a second.
Its a known problem with hybrids (not just Honda) . Their 12v battery is much smaller than used by 'normal' ICE cars as it doesnt have to do the 'heavy lifting' of actually cranking the engine . But it does mean they can go flat if the car is was only used infrequently for short journeys ,and especially if it has also sat for 2-3 weeks unused on a used car lot, with maybe prospective customers occasionally 'starting' the car for just a few seconds. I believe from your other post you were test driving a particular 3 year old used car rather than one of the dealerships regularly used demonstrators.
It does mean the dealership were remiss in not keeping their used cars properly charged up. But its always been the case that used car lots had a mobile 'jump starter' available.
You will find other postings on this site about the small battery going flat, and the precautions you can take. I always carry a small power pack jump starter in the car. I have never needed to use it in over 3 years. There is truth in the old adage that 'they all do that' .It need not put you off that car in particular or a Hybrid in general . But maybe the dealer would agree to a new battery as part of the deal.
Same with Brake discs . These do tend to get some surface rust in the current very damp weather. Normally this quickly rubs off during a short drive but might build up if the car is on the used car lot. (also you dont tend to use brakes as heavily in a hybrid ) . A bit of disc rusting might be mentioned as an 'advisory' on an Mot but probably wouldnt fail, but the dealership might want to clean them up before delivery. Again this may not be a reason to reject that particular car but I can understand going with your instinct about the car or dealership.
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Yes the test was prearranged. It is a Honda dealership. Weird but he moved the car out from a line of them but then wouldn't start again. It is a 2021 car. I read you if you buy a spare tyre there is nowhere to keep it. My brother has a Jaguar and in trip to Wales had a blow out. A man from Jaguar had to come out to the middle of Wales with a spare. I am going off the new Jazz as much as like Hondas, and own 3.
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Lord V, thanks for your reply.
That is poor re. the battery on hybrids.
The discs i would need to look at
I am a big fan of Honda and have 2 old Preludes (1986/7) and an old HRV with leather seats. That cost me £1k six years ago, replacing another i had since nearly knew. Great simple cars with very few issues. I can't get my head round spending £15k on a Jazz with 50k miles really. For the moment I will sit tight.
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Yes the test was prearranged. It is a Honda dealership. Weird but he moved the car out from a line of them but then wouldn't start again. It is a 2021 car. I read you if you buy a spare tyre there is nowhere to keep it. My brother has a Jaguar and in trip to Wales had a blow out. A man from Jaguar had to come out to the middle of Wales with a spare. I am going off the new Jazz as much as like Hondas, and own 3.
As well as the computer checks the 12v battery also has to activate a fairly heavy duty relay switch to connect the HV battery. IIRC this requires about 30 amps to 'throw' the switch . Although this is much less than the 300 amps or so needed to crank an engine its enough that flat battery may manage it once, but not a second time.
Many car in the last 5 years or so no longer come with a spare wheel (even a 'spacesaver ) and quite a few ,like the Mk4 , no longer even have a spare wheel well.
If its important to you a few of us including me , do carry a full sized spare in the boot. It will fit laid flat in the boot (and strapped down) It takes up space of course but still leaves quite a lot of space for luggage. (More than I had on total in my 2007 Yaris) This post shows mine in situ
https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=17164.15
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Great simple cars with very few issues.
Great simple cars....
That's history. We are now buying AI on wheels...(https://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/midi/konfus/a026.gif)
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Thanks for your update Lord V. I really enjoyed the process of buying my first HRV in 2001. Three door, silver and slick auto. I remember my young son said i should get leather seats and black windows. I did both. Cool looking and few issues. I took all the leather out and put it into the one i bought 6 years back. Planning trip around France and Spain (maybe) I thought maybe time for a newer model but still keep the HRV.
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When I checked other alternatives prior to buying my first mk 4 in 2021 I noticed that a VW dealer and one or two others had their brand new showroom cars discreetly plugged in to a trickle charging system built in to the floor. All the cars including 'normal' ICE cars, not just hybrids or EV's . Neither of the Honda dealers I visited had a floor system but quite likely occasionally put them on a smart charger overnight.
This surprised me at the time. I have since read that pretty much ALL new cars now have many computer systems ,key recognition systems , internet connectivity signals etc etc , running 24/7. Even when the car is switched off. . There is a small but relentless parasitic drain on the battery. Even a conventional car with a large battery for starting its internal combustion engine may not start ,much sooner than was the case in 'the good old days'. It can be as little as a month or even 2 weeks, especially if the car typically only gets infrequent or short runs.
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I like your language...'a plastic drain'. Sums up the cost of buying a nearly new or new car! Can the battery not be disconnected when you lave it for some weeks? I would worry about leaving at Heathrow parking for some weeks only to find a immobile car on my arrival. I may look into Skoda...nice looking SUV. Lose value but cost less.
Having said that if i cant sell my Prelude my wife surprisingly she would happily go to Monaco in it!
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I can understand those who prefer the relative simplicity of cars from a few years ago. Cars from the 2020's are more complex and this can have downsides. But I suggest being careful not to reject the Jazz or any other model of car based on a downside that may come to notice, without checking whether this is common to all cars from the 2020's and unavoidable without clinging to 20th century technology.
I dont think its the best solution, or advisable , to disconnect the 12v battery for long term parking. I have a small power bank jump starter which I keep in the car. This should be enough to 'jump start' start the car if the 12v battery has gone flat. I charge mine about every 3 months ,when its still about 75% charged. Simple usb charger, either in the car or indoors.
Here is an example from Amazon but there are many other makes from about £25
https://www.amazon.co.uk/UTRAI-Portable-Starter-Battery-JS-Mini/dp/B0CPPF395Z/ref=asc_df_B0CPPF395Z?mcid=007200e957ae35bdabcf66fb1167ddf6&tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=696556563596&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=5599533651209391081&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1006907&hvtargid=pla-2275729418565&gad_source=1&th=1
Its physically small. - see photos on the amazon listing.
If you are likely to leave the car unused for more than 3 months while travelling its only fair I mention another potential disadvantage of hybrids (and EV's.)
Honda recommend the car is driven for at least 30 minutes once every 3 months. You would need to arrange for someone to do this . If its family/friend they would need to drive the car. Its not enough just to start the car and leave it running. (Although a garage or competent long term storage storage facility may have special charging equipment. ) The reason is the High voltage battery must pass through some charge and discharge cycles or it may deteriorate permanently . It would be VERY expensive to replace. Disconnecting the HV battery is not feasible and wouldnt help anyway.
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Once again you are a fountain of knowledge which i am grateful for. I wasn't aware that the main batteries were very costly. I have an old SLK ( what a great car btw) and a battery about £70. So the new breed are hundreds?
I agree that one can get stuck in a time warp and reject modernity and 'improvements in technology' but perhaps it is too early to tell perhaps. As an aside, how great being able to have leather seats as an option in my HRV in 2001. From memory £500. Just come to me that the cloth seat had a cigarette burn and it was the salesman who suggested the leather. Still in great shape, which cloth wouldn't be. The Jazz had half leather and wasn't great quality and i prefer 100% of one or other. The Merc leather in 2 tone is something to behold. Funny but the Honda dealership is on a hill and the Jazz toiled going up. When we drove off later in the Merc it took it in its stride!
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I have an old SLK ( what a great car btw) and a battery about £70. So the new breed are hundreds?
To give you an idea: https://tdxltd.co.uk/products/honda-jazz-mk5-gr-1-5-hybrid-2020-2023-genuine-high-voltage-battery-unit
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I have an old SLK ( what a great car btw) and a battery about £70. So the new breed are hundreds?
To give you an idea: https://tdxltd.co.uk/products/honda-jazz-mk5-gr-1-5-hybrid-2020-2023-genuine-high-voltage-battery-unit
Jazz is a modern small and efficient hybrid, while it has good all around performance it is not ever going to have the power and torque of a SLK.
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Once again you are a fountain of knowledge which i am grateful for. I wasn't aware that the main batteries were very costly. I have an old SLK ( what a great car btw) and a battery about £70. So the new breed are hundreds?
I agree that one can get stuck in a time warp and reject modernity and 'improvements in technology' but perhaps it is too early to tell perhaps. As an aside, how great being able to have leather seats as an option in my HRV in 2001. From memory £500. Just come to me that the cloth seat had a cigarette burn and it was the salesman who suggested the leather. Still in great shape, which cloth wouldn't be. The Jazz had half leather and wasn't great quality and i prefer 100% of one or other. The Merc leather in 2 tone is something to behold. Funny but the Honda dealership is on a hill and the Jazz toiled going up. When we drove off later in the Merc it took it in its stride!
Oh dear I seem to have put my foot in it and need to put the battery cost for Hybrids and EV's into context .
The 12v battery is an ordinary lead acid battery, ancient technology as used by most cars .Like all cars this may need replacing every few years, for £70 or less.
The High voltage battery used for traction in EV mode in Hybrids and EV's is high tech, and very expensive. Its the main reason these cars are so expensive when new. But this battery is designed to last the life of the car. Its no more likely to need a new HV battery than a relatively new car would need a complete brand new engine fitted at main dealer prices. (but if it did the cost might be similar :o ) On the plus side Hybrids related mechanicals are simple and reliable and far less likely to need expensive repairs to clutch , gearbox, engine etc that often send cars to the scrapyard before their time.
For those who might be concerned about running a mk4 hybrid in the future when the car reaches its teenage years . If the battery starts to show its age and needs replacement there are specialists already appearing able to recycle and renovate EV batteries at more realistic cost .Either good used ones from scrapped cars , or rebuilding batteries using new cells. The cost might be more akin to getting a clutch or gearbox replaced rather than a 12v battery. :( Unwelcome but viable if it extends the life of the car. On the plus side you shouldn't also face the cost of a new clutch etc, and ,as another post illustrates, may have already saved £3K + in petrol costs. :D
I am surprised it was sluggish up hill. If you give it plenty of throttle it should climb well enough, but may get noisier than usual for a short while.
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A thought: regarding LV's last posted reply.
I agree that a replacement 'electric' battery may be high, but I know that it is guaranteed for 8 years, is good for still achieving around 85% charge after this time too.
So, in say 8 years time.. the technology for electric batteries will be better and superior.. and probably cheaper too.
Add to this equation the fact that although we are also running a petrol 1.5 engine, this engine is living a far less stressful life than a conventional 1.5 petrol engine. Seeing as todays motors are regularly, and quite comfortably reaching the 100k and beyond mark there is no reason to think that our Jazz motors would reach a very long life indeed. Albeit the running gear may need replacing often, the bodywork may need patching up and ancillary bits replacing.
I can't guess or comment as to how the gearbox will perform for the duration, but hopefully it would still be comparable to the engine life.
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Excellent points from both Nicksey and LV . Even if the HV battery degrades over time it would be interesting to see how overall mpg would change . Given the HV battery serves as an energy buffer and is a modest power rating -would a 10 % degradation in capacity make any real difference in the hybrid performance ?
Having driven lots of miles you can’t actually make the petrol ICE engine ‘ sit at its max rev -red line if you like” for very long . Go up a 1:4 hill fully loaded and it will rev out as you climb but will soon “ step down in revs with a simulated gear change “ even with your foot still on the floor . Which is just the smart PCM limiting engine over enthusiastic use . I have yet to drive flat out on a European motorway so i dont know if the ICE engine would max out for an extended period?
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If the HV did degrade by say 10% in its old age how would this manifest itself? The battery is less efficient in cold weather anyway but I have never noticed any loss in road performance such as acceleration. Fuel consumption is noticeably higher in winter due to the ICE engine having to run longer and more often to keep the Battery charged. But some, maybe even most, of this is because cold ICE's are less efficient, more stuff such as climate control is running and cold air is denser, increasing wind resistance. All contribute to some extent.
Lets assume a Mk3 does 50 mpg and a Mk4 does 60 mpg. Presumably a hybrid ,with the ICE and some regenerative braking charging the HV battery ,account for a fuel saving of 10 mpg. Does this mean a 10% reduction in battery efficiency equates to 10% reduction of the 10 mpg? A increase of 1 mpg is not the end of the world. (Or maybe it will be ??? ) You would still have the other advantages of the mk4 and it should still be perfectly usable for many more years.
But I may be totally wrong with the logic ,physics and reality. ;D
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My understanding is that many folks prefer to lease their cars nowadays (even on this forum).
So (now playing the devil's advocate here): Why on earth would they ever be concerned about how well any car ages above the lease time?
I have never leased a car in my life (and don't intend to do so, ever!). Yet, I have bought a e:HEV Jazz with the firm conviction of "doing the right thing"!
For the record: The Jazz's HV battery holds a meagre 0,7 kWh and simply serves as a buffer in the car's propulsion system.
So, should the HV battery eventually degrade to 80% of its original capacity would simply mean that the average consumption would go down by a few MPG (or up by 0.x L/100km).
This isn't an "earth-shattering event" that would render the car completely worthless!
Please, let us keep some perspective here, thank you.
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I raised the issue of the longevity of High voltage batteries because a lot of owners of jazz and other japanese cars keep them for many years . . Far longer than any leasing agreement.( I bought my previous Yaris new and kept it 14 years )
I was conscious that other readers on here may be contemplating taking the plunge of buying a mk 4 hybrid who may nervous about how the new technology will stand the test of time. (Some Mk4 'already date back to 2020. . And earlier technology Jazz hybrids dating back to 2011 are still going strong )
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I made the point about longevity, for the simple fact the Jazz was purchased as my probable last car.
I bought it just as I turned 60, after changing cars every 3 or 4 years. I have never leased or had loaned finance on any car.
The Jazz is for the duration.
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I would have bought a third nissan note, after drivng two for 14 years and 300,000 miles . Bothpetrol 1.4 16v manual 5 sp. Nissan just stopped uk NOTE sales as they made something else in sunderland . My intention was then to buy a mk 3 jazz , nearest size to my note and as reliable as its a honda . When i discovered the newish MK 4 jazz i headed to learn more . After a test drive i was taken by its smooth powertrain and much quicker getaway than the NOTE had . The tech on the jazz is a planet away from NOTE / mk 3 land so a stepinto the future with honda . I hope to run the jazz for 10 years and 150,000 miles even after warrantry land disappears… i expect any failures on tbe mk4 will be documented, if they arise ! in our active forum. Honda have lots of hybrid history just as toyota do so im confident for lots of miles yet , accidents permitting!
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I also purchased my Jazz for the long haul
I’m hoping it will be my last car purchase as long as it turns out to be as reliable as expected
So far it’s been 100% perfect and I’m extremely happy with it
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My understanding is that many folks prefer to lease their cars nowadays (even on this forum).
So (now playing the devil's advocate here): Why on earth would they ever be concerned about how well any car ages above the lease time?
I have never leased a car in my life (and don't intend to do so, ever!). Yet, I have bought a e:HEV Jazz with the firm conviction of "doing the right thing"!
For the record: The Jazz's HV battery holds a meagre 0,7 kWh and simply serves as a buffer in the car's propulsion system.
So, should the HV battery eventually degrade to 80% of its original capacity would simply mean that the average consumption would go down by a few MPG (or up by 0.x L/100km).
This isn't an "earth-shattering event" that would render the car completely worthless!
Please, let us keep some perspective here, thank you.
Jazz’s battery is 0.86kWh.
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I think that theoretically, if the HV battery's capacity drops to half, then the petrol engine would just run half shorter time to charge it, and the car would remain in EV mode half shorter period of time, until the engine starts charging the HV battery again.
But as battery gets older, its internal resistance increases as well. Higher internal resistance means that the battery heats up more, both when it is charged and when it is discharged. This will cause an efficiency drop. Basically the car puts more electrical energy into the battery while charging, but the battery doesn't give as much energy out while the battery is discharging, for example when accelerating.