Clubjazz - Honda Jazz & HR-V Forums
Honda Jazz Forums => Honda Jazz Mk4 2020 - => Topic started by: MRCLICKCLICK on September 28, 2023, 12:10:30 PM
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When I was talking with the engineers at local dealership I raised the question - if the hV battery failed could the car still act as a stand alone ICE - yes was the answer - dont want to test that - but seems to be useful. Anybody had that experience???
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Don’t really understand that answer.
The engine is started by the generator acting as a motor to spin the engine, so if the HV battery fails, then how does it start the engine?
I accept that, with the right electronic control, and with the engine running, it should be possible for engine/generator unit to supply power to the drive motor to move the car. (A basic petrol electric drive)
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I assume if it worked it would only be possible in overdrive gear, but maybe with enough revs to get you moving and home?
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My car always seems to start cold with the engine first, only on occasion (reverse) does it start and move off quietly via full electric. I assume even if the HV battery failed, it is still part of the electric circuit and still the connection via the generator the engine would fire up.
One of the plus points of owning a hybrid as opposed to a full electric was in my opinion, that after 8 years (which is what Honda guarantee the battery for) if the battery fails or only reaches a very small percentage of its charge, I would still be left with a very economical 1.5 engine.. that even after 8 years would have a far less stressed and wear free life compared to a non hybrid petrol engine that had done the same mileage.
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There is no gearbox, if the HV battery was so poor it could not spin the motor very much you would have a single overdrive gear ICE car, not optimum for normal driving. I assume if there is a limp home mode for HV failure the 12V battery would have to run the micro circuits and spark plugs, and have software to enable enough revs to keep moving at low speed? but it would not be low mpg or pleasant driving.
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I'm with @Kenneve here: If the HV battery fails, we are in deep sh*t!
The manual states on p399:
Be carful not to let the High Voltage battery drain too much. If the battery level becomes close to zero, it will make it impossible to start the power system.
So, without power on the HV battery the car will impossibly start. There's even a special warning symbol if the HV battery runs extremely low (and the car is still operating!) - The "resolution" is: Contagt a dealer immediately (bottom of p132)
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Maybe they mean that if the HV battery no longer holds a full charge due to age etc but still holds some, that the car will still be usable, because of its ICE replenishing it. ( Although the ICE would probably have to be running more often than usual to cope. ) Unlike a full EV where the road performance and already low range would be seriously compromised if the HV battery can no longer hold a full charge.
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Maybe they mean that if the HV battery no longer holds a full charge due to age etc but still holds some...
The manual is quite specific about the fact: No charge (or very low charge) of the HV battery = no luck!
The hybrid system is dependent on a resonably charged and operational HV battery.
On the upside: If you are using the car conforming to its intended use (which, by the way is to actuallly and regularly drive it instead of letting it sit and collect dust) you hopefully will never ever encounter this condition.
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Given the likely cost of a new HV battery does this mean that the Jazz is a write off should that battery fail outside the 8 year warranty?
Is this another, expensive, example of in-built obsolescence?
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The cost of replacement hybrid batteries is considerably less than a full EV battery
Tesla and Merc EV battery replacement is about £17k
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Given the likely cost of a new HV battery does this mean that the Jazz is a write off should that battery fail outside the 8 year warranty?
Is this another, expensive, example of in-built obsolescence?
I think the batteries are intended to last 'the life of the car' . Of course car manufacturers have a different view of how long a new car should last than the consumer.
Any 8 year old car could become beyond economic repair if something big needs repair. Is it not likely that in 8 years time ,with the increasing numbers of Hybrids and EV's that are now too old for owners to pay silly main dealer prices for OE parts there will be many more specialists rebuilding batteries with new cells, rejuvinating batteries, supplying used batteries, or cheaper aftermarket alternatives etc. . Some of these may be even make the car perform better due to updated battery technology. It might be possible to replace the HV battery for not much more than a replacment clutch.Something the Jazz Mk4 wont need replacing because it doesnt have one.
I think early 2020's hybrids will still be sought after on the used car market for many years yet. If I'm wrong so be it . I aim to sell the car long before its 8 years old :P
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The cost of replacement hybrid batteries is considerably less than a full EV battery
Tesla and Merc EV battery replacement is about £17k
...And a P1 is $130,000 :o ;D
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From the video I saw that described the hybrid drive train, the ICE only fully engages with the wheels above 62mph (this is one reason why the fuel efficiency starts dropping off significantly above this speed). Below that, it's the electric motor only fed off the HT battery, which the ICE is replenishing. So, dud HT battery means no tractive force.
I couldn't get a straight answer from Honda about what their 5 year warranty actually meant. I specifically asked if there a level of degradation at which they will replace it. They couldn't tell me.
Suspect going forward, like other EV's, there will be a number of 3rd party replacements becoming available. I wouldn't be surprised if some enterprising companies will start offering higher capacity batteries at some point. There are companies that fit higher capacity cells to Nissan Leafs, for example.
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The physical or mechanical connection between engine and wheels occurs above 70 kmph which is 43 mph. The fact that fuel economy drops at higher speeds is caused by air drag, not by this mechanical connection (which is a nearly 100% efficient one).
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I have read somewhere (that I will try and find from where) the new gen Honda hybrids have been designed for 300,000 KM before they need replacing. Unlike some super cars which are expected to run to just 60,000 K
Just keep up the servicing !
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This same concern is constantly expressed on Lexus owner’s websites, really without qualification, and often by those who do not have a hybrid. As stated by Lord Voltemore the hybrid battery is designed to last the life of the vehicle. Who knows what that is except there are many original RX400’s running around perfectly normally with extremely high mileage’s. As always the key to longevity is regular servicing and maintenance and hybrid systems do require periodic adjustment to optimise performance.
Where there have been failures , it is not always the whole hybrid battery that fails, just some of the cells, and as mentioned here there are cheaper 3rd party operators now available at reasonable cost.
I have absolutely no problems owning a hybrid, at the same time it will be changed at 5 years or earlier, so always under warranty, but I also suspect it should hold its value well.
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If battery life on EV's and hybrids fall off a cliff in the foreseeable future there will be lots of people with limited budgets also looking for a life line. The demand for solutions will be there.
But I think my cunning plan to recycle disposable vape batteries into EV batteries is a non starter. ;D
If someone pinches my idea and makes a fortune I wont mind. Much. As long as they dont make private helicopter and private jets flights.
My other idea is to buy up lots of non ULEZ compliant cars cheaply, then corner the market when people are desperate for alternatives to older EV's. ;D
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Honda has been building hybrid vehicules for over 20 years now (remember the "Insight"?).
If there were a significant problem with the batteries it ought to show up in the fora by now.
Remember: If you're satisfied you tell two to three people you like; if you're dissatisfied you tell the rest of the world!
@LV: I like your business plan, maybe you should team up with Jeremy Clarkson (I'll drive combustors till my death) :D
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But I think my cunning plan to recycle disposable vape batteries into EV batteries is a non starter. ;D
Not big enough! Disposable vape batteries tend to be odd shapes and max out at about 1500mAh.
I have one I found in a street gutter (with a cheap Li-Ion charging board and a solar cell) powering my homebrew IoT "shed thermometer".
The ones in a hybrid battery are likely to be standard sizes like 18650 with at least double that capacity.
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I'm not sure about posting this here. Today my wife and I drove to a country park. We sat in the car to eat our lunch and listened to an audiobook from my phone via the Jazz audio. We may have spent an hour with the accessory power, (is that what it's called when you press the start button but do not put your foot on the brake) being used. I locked the car and we went for a walk with the dog. When we got back to the car and tried to continue to listen to our book the electrics started to fail and eventually went off completely. I was, of course, not able to start the car. I used the Honda+ app to call Honda Support. An AA man came to us within half an hour. The service battery was jumped and the car started. The AA man suggested that the battery is probably knackered. On the way home I called at Halfords and bought a power pack car starter gizmo. The car is not quite 3 years old. Should I expect the battery to be FUBAR?
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We sat in the car to eat our lunch and listened to an audiobook from my phone via the Jazz audio. We may have spent an hour with the accessory power, (is that what it's called when you press the start button but do not put your foot on the brake) being used. I locked the car and we went for a walk with the dog. When we got back to the car and tried to continue to listen to our book the electrics started to fail and eventually went off completely. I was, of course, not able to start the car.
This has nothing to do with the hybrid (HV) battery. You "exhausted" the 12 volt battery. You could listen to an audiobook or music, but have your Jazz in ready, your battery will survivive and you will be able to start and drive on without help of the AA... ;)
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It's usually the new owners who drain the 12V battery while using accessory mode to explore various vehicle features. It's a small battery but I suspect that too many energy-hungry components are powered up when in that mode while the HV battery remains disconnected and can't provide top-up power.
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I'm sure there's more to it, but you can run an indoor radio for many hours on a set of 4 AAA batteries but a far larger car battery can be flattened in a few hours just listening to the radio
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I'm not sure about posting this here. Today my wife and I drove to a country park. We sat in the car to eat our lunch and listened to an audiobook from my phone via the Jazz audio. We may have spent an hour with the accessory power, (is that what it's called when you press the start button but do not put your foot on the brake) being used. I locked the car and we went for a walk with the dog. When we got back to the car and tried to continue to listen to our book the electrics started to fail and eventually went off completely. I was, of course, not able to start the car. I used the Honda+ app to call Honda Support. An AA man came to us within half an hour. The service battery was jumped and the car started. The AA man suggested that the battery is probably knackered. On the way home I called at Halfords and bought a power pack car starter gizmo. The car is not quite 3 years old. Should I expect the battery to be FUBAR?
In my Mk3, you don’t need to use Acc mode to listen to the audio, you just push the power button on the unit to turn it on without starting up all the other accessories. Also, the radio will switch off after around 10-15 minutes as a warning that the car is trying to protect the battery. You can override this by turning it back on again, but ignore that at your peril. Does the Mk4 unit not work this way?
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This is a Mk4 problem. Your Mk3 doesn't seem to be a hybrid...
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I'm sure there's more to it, but you can run an indoor radio for many hours on a set of 4 AAA batteries but a far larger car battery can be flattened in a few hours just listening to the radio
Depends on the power output and number of speakers. Car speakers tend to be 4 ohm which run on current rather than voltage for loudness, dynamic impedance can even be lower, class A/B amps can run warm at louder volumes, which disspate power, two channels, four speakers, current can easily be many hundreds of mA, maybe amps. It is possible that the 12V voltage will go down to the point where the micros won't start, particularly if the system is not regularly charged by a reasonable run. We don't know a lot about HV charging without alternators in these type cars now.
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This morning I took my car into the Honda dealership to have the service battery checked. Unsprisingly the verdict was that the battery is OK. I told them what led up to the flat battery. They said that given that information Honda would not have changed the battery under the cars guarantee. I will have to take care when using the audio system with the car in Aux mode. I now have a compact booster in the boot well.
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This is a Mk4 problem. Your Mk3 doesn't seem to be a hybrid...
Hence ColinB's final comment "Does the Mk4 unit not work this way?"
It does pay to read the whole post ::)
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With the MK4 just leave it in normal EV driving mode
The engine will cut in and out as needed to keep both batteries charged
If your just listening to audio then the engine will cut in very infrequently in my experience
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This is a Mk4 problem. Your Mk3 doesn't seem to be a hybrid...
Hence ColinB's final comment "Does the Mk4 unit not work this way?"
It does pay to read the whole post ::)
Said it before I could! Every modern car I've had has turned the audio off after a while if the charger (aka the engine) hasn't been running. Surprised the MK4 doesn't have this safeguard ... unless it was deliberately overridden.
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The engine will cut in and out as needed to keep both batteries charged
Ah, I'm glad you mentioned this. In a normal car I would always use Aux mode in a similar situation to save the ignition coil from overheating. I would like to know if the ignition is disabled in the MK4 Jazz when the engine is stopped during normal running. I guess it must be.
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... to save the ignition coil from overheating ...
What exactly makes you think the ignition coil would be overheating?
And if it was actually a problem: I would assume Honda's engineers would have thought about it?
(it's not their first car they are bulding)
After all: Non-accessory-mode is the normal operating state of our Jazzes!
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... to save the ignition coil from overheating ...
What exactly makes you think the ignition coil :-Xwould be overheating?
And if it was actually a problem: I would assume Honda's engineers would have thought about it?
(it's not their first car they are bulding)
After all: Non-accessory-mode is the normal operating state of our Jazzes!
Will you read my text again please
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From Lord Voltomore - "It might be possible to replace the HV battery for not much more than a replacment clutch.Something the Jazz Mk4 wont need replacing because it doesnt have one."
There are two clutches in the system as explained by Prof Kelly in Weber State University Davis Youtube video, one is emergency breakaway but the other works every time via oil pressure when ICE only mode starts as I understand it.
since neither are subject to the vagaries of driver operation probably are designed lifetime of the system, whatever that is.
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When I first got mine I knew the batteries would not be fully charged
As I also knew I'd be spending about an hour setting things up so I just left it in EV mode and let the engine kick in every now and again as I was draining it doing my initial setup
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It could be interesting to see if the modest size of the HV battery -around 1kW and 200volts is (similar to toyotas HEV) due to how fast the charge is put in and taken out . Watching the power flow graphics it can switch quickly from putting the charge in to taking it out ..and then back again -is this need better provided by a smaller battery or isnt it relevent to the battery capacity. Unlike an EV most of tbe energy is flowing out between plug in charges with top ups from regen braking and they need bigger capacity for range ?
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In reply to Lincolnshire Rambler:
In electrical way, a bigger battery would be slightly better (but not much), because all those charges and discharges would feel smaller, and happen at a slower rate compared to its big capacity, like lifting something heavy feels lighter and easier for a strong person.
However, a bigger battery also costs more, weighs more and reduces the boot space even more, so maybe Honda engineers thought that a bigger battery isn't worth those tradeoffs. The battery of Jazz doesn't need to have a large capacity like in an EV, because the petrol engine can charge it anytime when needed.