Clubjazz - Honda Jazz & HR-V Forums
Honda Jazz Forums => Honda Jazz Mk3 2015-2020 => Topic started by: Bobcat on April 17, 2023, 05:13:28 AM
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Hi all,
Well we have found a sport that seems OK. Its a long way from home at a Honda dealer so we have put a deposit down and the balance subject to viewing etc.
I have been looking at the USA fit forum today and it has a number of posts about issues with the 1.5 engine as its direct injection GDI.
Owners have had issues after low mileage and needed new injectors after carbon build up.
As we want to keep the car long term with little trouble I am wondering whether we should do a u turn and go back to the 1.3 port injection engine.
Have any other uk 1.5 sport owners had issues with carbon build up, injectors etc??
US owners suggest the need to fit an oil catch can, use injectors cleaner regularly, top quality fuel, and expect you need to have the engine cleaned every 50,000 miles! that all seems like worry and extra effort not trouble free motoring.
I definitely don't want to spend £16,000 and then face issues.
Any thoughts appreciated as we need to arrange a collection date on the sport today or tomorrow.
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I thought these issues were mainly due to the low fuel quality in the USA and also the turbocharged version is more apt to problems than the non-turbo.
Never experienced any problem with the 1.5 in 40.000 miles :)
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We've not had any issues either but we've only done about 20k miles. If you're concerned, you could stick to Shell v-power which has cleaning agents and is meant to prevent carbon build-up or just put in a bottle of cleaning additives occasionally which we have been doing.
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I wouldnt have thought it would be a problem if you use decent quality petrol and bung a bottle of injector cleaner in the tank every so often. As others have pointed out American fuel may be different, and maybe also the specification of the fuel injectors to meet different emission requirements.
I have a mk4. Love it. I'm biased . But if paying £16K for a mk3 I would also consider the advantages of a hybrid mk4 and whether my piggy bank could stretch that far.
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The L15B1 engine of the GK5 Jazz is quite the same of the L15B4 of the mk2 HRV.
Probably due to better quality fuels, carbon buildup on EUDM L15B engines is very very rare.
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Hi everyone,
Thanks for your feedback, it is very reassuring!! Looks like we will go ahead on the sport then.
Lord voltermore, agreed we could buy a practically new hybrid for only another £6000 but my wife doesn't like the design of the new Jazz, so that won't be happening!
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Good decision, you will not regret.
Our Sport puts a smile on my every time I drive it and my other car's a Civic TypeR.
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Carbon buildups in direct injection petrol engines grow on inlet valves and ducts because petrol does not "wash" them, so oil vapour burn and create buildups, this is the main problem.
If fuel injectors have buildups, this means that they work with low quality fuel.
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A lot of other manufacturers use direct injection engines and you don't see any massive problems in the motoring press.
So if you stick to decent fuel and have regular servicing then it's fairly safe to assume you shouldn't have any problems.
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As others have said, never heard of any modern engine suffering those problems in the UK. Fuel in the US is quite often as low as 87 against our 95 and even their highest rating is only 91-94.
You won't regret buying the Sport, the extra 25% BHP available makes into a lovely little car and I think the subtle Sports body additions make it look much more desirable.
Sent from my iPhone
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agree , the Sport is a great car , no problems so far in 32K.
because I don't do a lot of miles and live near Tesco I usually chuck in Momentum 99 fuel. Not sure of the benefits but no complaints about the performance .
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As others have said, never heard of any modern engine suffering those problems in the UK. Fuel in the US is quite often as low as 87 against our 95 and even their highest rating is only 91-94.
You won't regret buying the Sport, the extra 25% BHP available makes into a lovely little car and I think the subtle Sports body additions make it look much more desirable.
Unleaded petrol in the USA is measured against a different scale to European petrol. In the USA they use AKI (Anti Knock Index) which is the RON plus MON divided by 2. so the USA AKI 91 is the same as our RON 95 and AKI 93 is our RON 98.
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As others have said, never heard of any modern engine suffering those problems in the UK. Fuel in the US is quite often as low as 87 against our 95 and even their highest rating is only 91-94.
You won't regret buying the Sport, the extra 25% BHP available makes into a lovely little car and I think the subtle Sports body additions make it look much more desirable.
Unleaded petrol in the USA is measured against a different scale to European petrol. In the USA they use AKI (Anti Knock Index) which is the RON plus MON divided by 2. so the USA AKI 91 is the same as our RON 95 and AKI 93 is our RON 98.
Yes, also the composition is slightly different, especially in sulphates.
That's why lubricants for USDM are also generally different from lubricants for EUDM models; since the engine is a sort of "chemical reactor", the two environments are different so using a lubricant for USDM in a car running in EU is not such a good idea.
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you are not going to clean anything with injector cleaner, its direct injection so in front of the intake valves and not behind cleaning them like on multi port injection
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You are confusing multiport injection with diesel injection. Diesel is injected into the cylinder, petrol is injected before the inlet valve. Single-point injection is just further upstream.
(https://www.samarins.com/check/images/mpi-fuel-injection.jpg)
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Are you sure, Jocko? MPI has been used since 1990 or so and is not direct injection.
The picture you show is not the situation for Mk3 and Mk4 Jazzes. I believe it is like this:
(https://learnmech.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/What-is-Gasoline-Direct-Injection-e1555520275627.jpg)
More info here: https://learnmech.com/what-is-gasoline-direct-injection-gdi-working-operation/ (https://learnmech.com/what-is-gasoline-direct-injection-gdi-working-operation/)
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Honda'a MPI is stated as follows.
The PGM-FI system relies on a piezoelectric sensor to measure intake manifold air pressure, then combines that data with the crankshaft rpm and other info to compute the air quantity, and interprets the data using performance maps. Fuel is injected intermittently into the inlet ports. The PGM-FI also has a trailing throttle fuel cutoff and a self-diagnosis system.
These are Honda Jazz fuel injectors. As you can see they are low-pressure fittings for fitting into the inlet manifold. Injectors that fit into the cylinder are screw-fitting, like spark plugs.
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/2I4AAOSwwEpkGuBi/s-l1600.jpg)
Direct injection goes straight into the cylinder.
We are arguing different points here. DI is only on the 1.5 Jazz engine and the smaller engines use MPI.
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you are not going to clean anything with injector cleaner, its direct injection so in front of the intake valves and not behind cleaning them like on multi port injection
My apologies. I misunderstood this post. To me, in front of the intake valves means upstream, in the inlet manifold. In front, as in the direction of travel of the charge. I now realise monkeydave means in front as in the cylinder itself.
Please disregard my waffle in between these posts.
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The mk3 has DI also for the 1.3 engine. Both 1.3 and 1.5 are Earth Dreams high compression (1:13.5) Atkinson-type engines that have direct injection. It has to be, otherwise Atkinson would not work properly (while the compression cycle starts, the intake valves remain open for a short while. Air is pushed back out, so less fuel can be added while having an optimal ratio between air and fuel. This is only done on low engine loads).
Mk1 and mk2 have have MPI on all versions.
Come to think of it: as 1.3 and 1.5 are very similar, but 1.3 is not sold in the US, the petrol type there as the cause for problems seems even more valid. If the US would have had the 1.3, it would have had similar problems.
PS: based on Wikipedia pages for Jazz / Fit and Honda engines
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The mk3 has DI also for the 1.3 engine. Both 1.3 and 1.5 are Earth Dreams high compression (1:13.5) Atkinson-type engines that have direct injection. It has to be, otherwise Atkinson would not work properly (while the compression cycle starts, the intake valves remain open for a short while. Air is pushed back out, so less fuel can be added while having an optimal ratio between air and fuel. This is only done on low engine loads).
PS: based on Wikipedia pages for Jazz / Fit and Honda engines
Wiki is wrong.
1.3 Jazz (GK3) Earth dreams has port injection, 1.5 Jazz (GK5) has direct injection.
As far As I can remember, Honda has no 1.2 or 1.3 engines with Direct Injection.
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Sorry Jocko for doubting your answer and thanks jazzaro for clarifying that Wikipedia is not always right!
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So did we decide if injector cleaner on the 1.5 direct injection was useless or worth a bottle now and then? The conversation became a bit too technical for me!
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I would say yes. I used it about once a year, before my MOT, on my 2006 Jazz. It was multi-point injection.
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I think the conclusion is the Honda DI engine has two sets fuel injectors, the primary system (DI) injects fuel into the cylinder and not through the inlet valve port, the secondary injection system is to the inlet port, the purpose is to spraywash and clean the inlet valve port of carbon build up.
Carbon build up, cheap fuel is to avoided!
Many years ago at a classic car show, I had a conversation with an owner of an old post war Morris, he had rebuild his engine only to have to decoke severe carbon build up within a year of regular driving, he blamed the carbon to discount grade supermarket fuel. He said no problems with premium fuel such as Texaco premium fuels.
Diesels cars, my brother had an Vauxhall Astra diesel, on supermarket discount fuel the vehicle struggled to pass the MoT smoke test, if he used the vehicle on premium diesel fuel for several tanks before the MoT , the vehicle flew through the smoke test, I wish I had the Mot test printouts to give figures to my post.
Moral, you get what you pay for, cheap fuel is actually the expensive option, it causes problems
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I think the conclusion is the Honda DI engine has two sets fuel injectors, the primary system (DI) injects fuel into the cylinder and not through the inlet valve port, the secondary injection system is to the inlet port, the purpose is to spraywash and clean the inlet valve port of carbon build up.
Some VW DI engines used this technical solution, both for valve cleaning and for better emission control. But this is an expensive way, good for a Ferrari engine, not for standard cars.
Motorists can also use a VVC (continuos valve phase variator) and proper fuel injection times to create a fuel spray backstream in inlet ports and wash the part where carbon buildups are more frequent.
More than low quality fuel, it's a low quality oil that can create buildups, especially oils with high NOACK and sulphates. Easily drivers who use to buy cheap fuel, use also to buy cheap oils and to not follow specified oil change intervals.
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Honda Jazz GK5 (1,5 Dynamic, Sport or RS) has a direct injected L15B3 engine, which has one injector per cylinder located between the inlet valves and pointing downwards towards the pocket on the piston.
In the picture the injector itself is disassembled, but the hole is clearly visible.
(https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fitfreak.net-vbulletin/1297x975/20200622_054021_d1484ca1ba1fc07eeeb5f5460f649d52a180f1d3.jpg)
(https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fitfreak.net-vbulletin/1297x975/20200621_002248_a56272ae2307b4b04f3dd3dcea6690ce675e3614.jpg)
It's been discussed previously in this forum, that good quality fuel or fuel injector cleaner of course helps keeping injectors clean, but it is also plausible that it helps keeping the intake valves clean because fuel mist may flush the intake valves when they are open.
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Here is a link to a video by Diagnose Dan, Dan is dealing with a VW Tsi DI petrol engine with a cold-start misfire problem. Dan is dealing with the issue of carbon build-up in the valve ports, good video for background knowledhe of DI engines:
this link is a shortcut to a camera probe and then follows a comparison of indirect / DI engines
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Different engines have different problems. Honda L15B3 injector problems are typically not cold misfires. At least what can be found on user forums. Typical first symptom is the light show of various warning lights on dashboard.
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Basically just do what it says in the handbook, change oil every 6 months and use a petrol additive / cleaner every year.
Can't go far wrong then.
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6 MONTHS???
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Maybe it's different service schedule in UK? In continental Europe it's 12 months and no recommendations about any additive.
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Maybe it's different service schedule in UK? In continental Europe it's 12 months and no recommendations about any additive.
I believe in the UK the recommended service interval is 12 months or 12,500 miles. I would always suggest changing oil at 5000 miles, however they recommend using synthetic oil in the Jazz which should last longer than semi synthetic which I currently use in my cars.
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As others have said, never heard of any modern engine suffering those problems in the UK. Fuel in the US is quite often as low as 87 against our 95 and even their highest rating is only 91-94.
You won't regret buying the Sport, the extra 25% BHP available makes into a lovely little car and I think the subtle Sports body additions make it look much more desirable.
Sent from my iPhone
You have to be careful here as the US uses a different rating system for their fuel.
In the UK (and a lot of Europe) we tend to stick to RON (Research Octane Rating) whilst in the US it's common to see AKI (Anti Knock Index).
It's a bit more complicated than that - I haven't mentioned MON and PON for example - but there's plenty of information available on the internet to explain.
Typically AKI is 4 - 6 points lower than RON, so US AKI 91 fuel is the rough equivalent of our UK 95 RON.
In the UK, most fuels are derived from a base stock which conforms to a British Standard. Some of the 'premium' branded suppliers will then add their own additives at a specific dose rate when filling their tankers at the fuel depot. Again it can get a bit more complicated than that but it's a generic explanation.
Using a good quality fuel and having the services done at the recommended interval using good quality fully synthetic oil conforming to the standard Honda quotes in the handbook should put your mind at rest.
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I believe in the UK the recommended service interval is 12 months or 12,500 miles. I would always suggest changing oil at 5000 miles, however they recommend using synthetic oil in the Jazz which should last longer than semi synthetic which I currently use in my cars.
In no manual I've read about synthetic oil recommendations, Honda only specify some ACEA rules or Honda Oils.
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... It's a bit more complicated than that - I haven't mentioned MON and PON .....
Typically AKI is 4 - 6 points lower than RON, so US AKI 91 fuel is the rough equivalent of our UK 95 RON.
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Exactly that.
RON is Research Octane Number, MON is Motor Octane Number. The tests are done under different speed/load/temperature conditions. MON is typically 10 numbers lower than RON for a given fuel.
Just for info, the USA normal is to display (RON+MON)/2, so as Badger says typically 5 numbers lower than RON as shown in the UK/Europe.
In addition, fuels in different parts of the world can behave differently even for a given octane number, I had particular experience in industry with issues in New Zealand with fuel characteristics not suiting our cars (or vice versa if you prefer). We couldn't repeat the problem back here with European fuel, we had to send engineers out there to address it "on site".
Sulphur (sulfur .. ) content can vary significantly, which can cause corrosion issues particularly with some plated cylinder bores.
When working at one consultants we had an early BMW DGI engine in for assessment. It had done around 30k km if I recall, and the inlet valves were heavily carboned, I did air flow rig measurements. I don't know what the latest DGI engines are like for this.
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Aren't there two different 1.5 engines? There was a 1.5 engine available for a short time in what we in the UK call the Mk 3 Jazz. Then there is the 1.5 Atkinson cycle engine used in the hybrid Jazz and Crosstar. Aren't they different engines? Aren't Atkinson cycle engines only used in hybrids, as they are more efficient, but provide less torque, which doesn't matter when they act only to generate electricity for the battery engine or to take over driving the car at higher speeds?
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... It's a bit more complicated than that - I haven't mentioned MON and PON .....
Typically AKI is 4 - 6 points lower than RON, so US AKI 91 fuel is the rough equivalent of our UK 95 RON.
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Exactly that.
Sulphur (sulfur .. ) content can vary significantly, which can cause corrosion issues particularly with some plated cylinder bores.
I was also going to mention the sulphur content but more in relation to BMW.
My BMW for example, uses a different spec engine oil compared to the US for the same car, because of the difference in fuel constituents affecting the oil.
Back to the Jazz - After all this, I guess simple answer is to use good quality fuel and oil...
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I am sure the Atkinson cycle engines were used in the Mk 3 as well.
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Aren't there two different 1.5 engines? There was a 1.5 engine available for a short time in what we in the UK call the Mk 3 Jazz. Then there is the 1.5 Atkinson cycle engine used in the hybrid Jazz and Crosstar. Aren't they different engines?
Yep, they are different. The Jazz MK3 had a 1.5 atkinson cycle engine but it was used in the gk5 Hybrid, not imported in Europe and Uk. The 1.5 we had was an Otto cycle.
Aren't Atkinson cycle engines only used in hybrids, as they are more efficient, but provide less torque, which doesn't matter when they act only to generate electricity for the battery engine or to take over driving the car at higher speeds?
Usually Atkinson cycle engines are used in hybrid powertrains because they provide less torque and less power, but there are some atkinson engines used in normal cars, one is the 1.3 16v of the 1.3 MK3 Jazz.
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one is the 1.3 16v of the 1.3 MK3 Jazz.
I knew they were used on some models of the Mk 3 as there have been many comments about the lack of low-down performance.
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What I heard / read is that the mk4 runs purely in Atkinson mode, while mk3 Earthdreams engines can run in Atkinson mode under light loads and switch to Otto under higher loads. This switching combines performance with economy, but is not needed in mk4 due to the electric motor.
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What I heard / read is that the mk4 runs purely in Atkinson mode, while mk3 Earthdreams engines can run in Atkinson mode under light loads and switch to Otto under higher loads. This switching combines performance with economy, but is not needed in mk4 due to the electric motor.
1.5 MK4 Jazz is made to run always in Atkinson mode, even if it would be correct to call it Simulated Atkinson mode, since the real Atkinson engine requires a different structure
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Atkinson_Engine_with_Intake.gif#/media/File:Atkinson_Engine_with_Intake.gif
Modern "Atkinson" engines are simple Otto engines performing a Late Intake Valve Closure, so the expansion phase will be longer than the compression. Since the RC in these engines is very high (the 1.3 MK3 Jazz engine runs with a 13,5:1 RC), they would hardly run in cycle Otto mode, this would be dangerous
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@jazzaro. The video isn't there, unfortunately.
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@jazzaro. The video isn't there, unfortunately.
fixed