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Honda Jazz Forums => Honda Jazz Mk4 2020 - => Topic started by: Jeff15 on August 05, 2021, 10:20:47 AM

Title: How accurate is the MPG indicator.??
Post by: Jeff15 on August 05, 2021, 10:20:47 AM
Does this give an accurate average or is it just for show?
Title: Re: How accurate is the MPG indicator.??
Post by: peteo48 on August 05, 2021, 10:23:53 AM
I can't speak for the Mk4 but my Mk2 and my current Mk3 both overestimated mpg by about 4 mpg on average. It would vary a bit from tank to tank but not by much.
Title: Re: How accurate is the MPG indicator.??
Post by: ColinB on August 05, 2021, 10:46:40 AM
Does this give an accurate average or is it just for show?
Depends what you mean by “accurate” and why you want that accuracy. If you’re keen on measuring your mpg with decimal places, then it’s not that accurate and you need to do something else. But if you just want to ensure you’re driving as efficiently as possible (which is actually why it’s there), and be able to take action if your mpg starts dropping off, then it’s plenty accurate enough.
Title: Re: How accurate is the MPG indicator.??
Post by: Jeff15 on August 05, 2021, 10:54:51 AM
Just a ballpark figure would do.. :)
Title: Re: How accurate is the MPG indicator.??
Post by: Jazzik on August 05, 2021, 12:14:48 PM
You want accurate MPG? Use (for example) this: https://www.spritmonitor.de/en/

Easy:
Use Spritmonitor.de on the road with your Android- or Apple-smartphone and the Spritmonitor.de app! Enter new fuelings right at the gas station.
Title: Re: How accurate is the MPG indicator.??
Post by: Worthingmike on August 05, 2021, 12:15:12 PM
My warning light came on and about 4 miles later i filled up. I got 35.3 lt in. So i think the warning light is just over 5 lt left.
Title: Re: How accurate is the MPG indicator.??
Post by: Worthingmike on August 05, 2021, 12:23:19 PM
Sorry i have posted this in the wrong post. It should have been in the fuel post. Geting old.
Title: Re: How accurate is the MPG indicator.??
Post by: ColinB on August 05, 2021, 02:58:52 PM
You want accurate MPG? Use (for example) this: https://www.spritmonitor.de/en/

Easy:
Use Spritmonitor.de on the road with your Android- or Apple-smartphone and the Spritmonitor.de app! Enter new fuelings right at the gas station.
Spritmonitor is just a calculation tool, the accuracy of the results depends on the accuracy of the data you enter. Sources of error can be the accuracy of measuring the fuel added (eg brimming the filler pipe in exactly the same way every time), and that the odometer reading can be a few % out.
Title: Re: How accurate is the MPG indicator.??
Post by: Expatman on August 05, 2021, 03:55:20 PM
You want accurate MPG? Use (for example) this: https://www.spritmonitor.de/en/

Easy:
Use Spritmonitor.de on the road with your Android- or Apple-smartphone and the Spritmonitor.de app! Enter new fuelings right at the gas station.
Spritmonitor is just a calculation tool, the accuracy of the results depends on the accuracy of the data you enter. Sources of error can be the accuracy of measuring the fuel added (eg brimming the filler pipe in exactly the same way every time), and that the odometer reading can be a few % out.
Sure, but if you run the calculation over several fill-ups then the vagaries will be ironed out and the overall average will be very close to real consumption. Certainly accurate for comparison purposes.
Title: Re: How accurate is the MPG indicator.??
Post by: ColinB on August 05, 2021, 04:16:01 PM
Sure, but if you run the calculation over several fill-ups then the vagaries will be ironed out and the overall average will be very close to real consumption.

Only if the errors are broadly above and below a mean value over repeated fill-ups. If they are biased to one side of the mean (eg if the odometer error is due to tyre wear) then you'll get a biased result.
Certainly accurate for comparison purposes.
But so is the car's computer read-out!
Title: Re: How accurate is the MPG indicator.??
Post by: Downsizer on August 05, 2021, 04:47:51 PM
Just a ballpark figure would do.. :)
Over 46000 miles in my Mk3 with trip B left running throughout, I have found the display to be about 9% optimistic showing 56.8 mpg while the true figure based on fuel bought is around 52. I expect the Mk 4 computer will be similar.
Title: Re: How accurate is the MPG indicator.??
Post by: John Ratsey on August 05, 2021, 05:11:57 PM
I also found the Mk. 3 to be about 9% optimistic (I have to wonder if Honda wanted people to think it was significantly more frugal than the Mk. 2). I'm seeing about 5% optimism on the Mk. 4.
Title: Re: How accurate is the MPG indicator.??
Post by: Expatman on August 05, 2021, 05:25:27 PM
Sure, but if you run the calculation over several fill-ups then the vagaries will be ironed out and the overall average will be very close to real consumption.

Only if the errors are broadly above and below a mean value over repeated fill-ups. If they are biased to one side of the mean (eg if the odometer error is due to tyre wear) then you'll get a biased result.
Certainly accurate for comparison purposes.
But so is the car's computer read-out!
Not if you are comparing between 2 different makes of cars.
Title: Re: How accurate is the MPG indicator.??
Post by: peteo48 on August 05, 2021, 05:40:40 PM
Just a ballpark figure would do.. :)
Over 46000 miles in my Mk3 with trip B left running throughout, I have found the display to be about 9% optimistic showing 56.8 mpg while the true figure based on fuel bought is around 52. I expect the Mk 4 computer will be similar.

Pretty much my experience over the Mk2 and the Mk3. Although I do brim to brim measurements myself, I think you can work with the figures given by the car's computer by just making an adjustment. If I knock 4 mpg off most my computer readouts I am pretty close to the actual consumption. I do the trip B thing as well.
Title: Re: How accurate is the MPG indicator.??
Post by: guest4871 on August 05, 2021, 06:27:24 PM
Why is there a consistent variation?
Title: Re: How accurate is the MPG indicator.??
Post by: Jazzik on August 05, 2021, 07:23:47 PM
You want accurate MPG? Use (for example) this: https://www.spritmonitor.de/en/

Easy:
Use Spritmonitor.de on the road with your Android- or Apple-smartphone and the Spritmonitor.de app! Enter new fuelings right at the gas station.
Spritmonitor is just a calculation tool, the accuracy of the results depends on the accuracy of the data you enter. Sources of error can be the accuracy of measuring the fuel added (eg brimming the filler pipe in exactly the same way every time), and that the odometer reading can be a few % out.
Sure, but if you run the calculation over several fill-ups then the vagaries will be ironed out and the overall average will be very close to real consumption. Certainly accurate for comparison purposes.

Why would you like to know what the exact consumption is over 1 trip of (for example) 17, 170 or even 1700 miles?
I use Spritmonitor for more than 13 years. Three different cars. I know exactly what the consumption of these 3 (my) cars is.
The average consumption of our current car measured over more than 4 years can be seen next to this post.
Title: Re: How accurate is the MPG indicator.??
Post by: E27006 on August 05, 2021, 09:11:21 PM
The display gives figures  for mpg in floating point to a tenth of an mpg, eg  60.7, 60.8, 60.9  mpg,  this implies the measurement of fuel used and distance travelled  is accurately  measured to less than 1% error of  both variables,
I do not believe the measurement  of fuel consumed and distance travelled is so precise and accurately  measured  we can  trust the figure to a tenth of an mpg,  I believe even quoting mpg in integers    such as59,  60 or 61 mpg is beyond the capacity of the measuring system, probably rounding to figures in increments of 5 mpg , 55, 60, 65  are more credible for the measuring system

 
Title: Re: How accurate is the MPG indicator.??
Post by: guest9814 on August 05, 2021, 09:54:03 PM
No one can check accuracy of MPG indicator when using sprittmonitor without knowlege of accuracy of fuel pump on gas station.
They can sometime lie, for example - you car low fuel lamp lit, you enter gas station and get 40l of fuel in tank that can "hold" 40l (wait moment i have at last 5l in tank, how i can get 40l ?) , tank actualy can hold more fuel but filling it fully wery dangerus to do, this wil kill charcoal canister at last.
next time in same situation you enter another gas station our another fuel pump on same gas station and get only 35l.
Some gas station can fraud some ammount of fuel when driver filling tank to full, but when filling fixed ammount of fuel up to 10l you will get exactly wat you pay for.
Some have badly ajusted stopper on pump (so it can stop filling tank sonner or later)

Title: Re: How accurate is the MPG indicator.??
Post by: Downsizer on August 05, 2021, 10:10:54 PM
Why is there a consistent variation?
It must be designed that way.  I think the measurement of fuel consumed is based on regular sampling and it’s clearly in the maker’s interests to err on the side of flattering the consumption, making us all feel better.  I don’t suppose there are any regulations specifying accuracy as it is not a safety issue.
Title: Re: How accurate is the MPG indicator.??
Post by: Expatman on August 05, 2021, 10:17:12 PM
To check the overall average fuel consumption you don’t always need to fill to brim. As long as you start full and end full then it doesn’t matter how much you put in in-between, note how much and mileometer reading. I have checked fuel consumption since new for my present Yeti and over 36,000 miles it has averaged 44.82 MPG, worse was 35.4 and best was 47.2. Worse was a 400 mile high speed dash to Cornwall against a head wind and best was dawdling around Dorset for a week on holiday.
Data entered on Excel spreadsheet - okay a bit anal I know!!!
Title: Re: How accurate is the MPG indicator.??
Post by: Kremmen on August 06, 2021, 03:36:38 AM
Not at all, I used to do that when I commuted at 11k miles a year but now that I only do about 2k miles a year I don't bother.
Title: Re: How accurate is the MPG indicator.??
Post by: guest4871 on August 06, 2021, 10:21:15 AM
Why is there a consistent variation?
It must be designed that way.  I think the measurement of fuel consumed is based on regular sampling and it’s clearly in the maker’s interests to err on the side of flattering the consumption, making us all feel better.  I don’t suppose there are any regulations specifying accuracy as it is not a safety issue.

The error on the fibometer seems to be quite closely related to the speedometer over read. Both over reading about 4/5%.

Is the false calculation of petrol consumption perhaps based on a false reading of speed?

Remind me, why does the speedometer over read?
Title: Re: How accurate is the MPG indicator.??
Post by: peteo48 on August 06, 2021, 10:26:55 AM
Not at all, I used to do that when I commuted at 11k miles a year but now that I only do about 2k miles a year I don't bother.

That's about my mileage give or take. This relegates fuel costs to a secondary consideration - certainly compared to depreciation.
Title: Re: How accurate is the MPG indicator.??
Post by: nowster on August 06, 2021, 11:40:11 AM
No one can check accuracy of MPG indicator when using sprittmonitor without knowlege of accuracy of fuel pump on gas station.
They can sometime lie, for example - you car low fuel lamp lit, you enter gas station and get 40l of fuel in tank that can "hold" 40l (wait moment i have at last 5l in tank, how i can get 40l ?) , tank actualy can hold more fuel but filling it fully wery dangerus to do, this wil kill charcoal canister at last.
next time in same situation you enter another gas station our another fuel pump on same gas station and get only 35l.
Some gas station can fraud some ammount of fuel when driver filling tank to full, but when filling fixed ammount of fuel up to 10l you will get exactly wat you pay for.
Some have badly ajusted stopper on pump (so it can stop filling tank sonner or later)

The weights and measures legislation in your country must be particularly lax.
Title: Re: How accurate is the MPG indicator.??
Post by: Jazzik on August 06, 2021, 11:50:04 AM
The weights and measures legislation in your country must be particularly lax.

...or maybe non-existent?
It is of course also possible that Roman has no idea that something like weights and measures legislation exists in his country...???
Title: Re: How accurate is the MPG indicator.??
Post by: guest9814 on August 06, 2021, 12:23:38 PM
The weights and measures legislation in your country must be particularly lax.

...or maybe non-existent?
It is of course also possible that Roman has no idea that something like weights and measures legislation exists in his country...???
Sometimes our police checking gas stations, but gas station operators have now advanced tech to fraud only if someone fill full tank or more then 10l, if someone want to check accuracy of fuel pump at gas station uses  special measurement 10l canister with temperature correction marks, so when someone filling only 10 liters program that used to fraud fuel not adding readings to pump meter.
And any complain about fuel tank capacity not working because they sais tank can hold more than specified......
Title: Re: How accurate is the MPG indicator.??
Post by: guest9814 on August 06, 2021, 12:37:51 PM
Example one week ago i drive from work, and on flat road low fuel warning come, with something like 70km remaining to "empty" , our reserve fuel is around 5.3l
Gas station that i using always is 1km from my workplace, i entered gas station and filled full tank - reading 36.5l....
But if I understand right i sill not run on reserve fuel.
So if in tank actually more than 5l, or that pump slightly overfilled my tank or i pay for more fuel than I get.
Title: Re: How accurate is the MPG indicator.??
Post by: Jazzik on August 06, 2021, 12:40:18 PM
Sometimes our police checking gas stations, but gas station operators have now advanced tech to fraud only if someone fill full tank or more then 10l, if someone want to check accuracy of fuel pump at gas station uses  special measurement 10l canister with temperature correction marks, so when someone filling only 10 liters program that used to fraud fuel not adding readings to pump meter.
And any complain about fuel tank capacity not working because they sais tank can hold more than specified......

So if I will ever drive around in Israel it will be 9.99 liters at gas station 1, then drive on to gas station 2, there again 9.99 liters and so on and so on... I don't like to be cheated!
(https://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/midi/konfus/a042.gif)

Title: Re: How accurate is the MPG indicator.??
Post by: Downsizer on August 06, 2021, 01:33:06 PM
The error on the fibometer seems to be quite closely related to the speedometer over read. Both over reading about 4/5%.

Is the false calculation of petrol consumption perhaps based on a false reading of speed?

Remind me, why does the speedometer over read?
I think the distance travelled part of the fuel consumption calculation is based on the odometer reading, not the speedometer.  Speedometers read high to eliminate the legal defence of “But my speedo reading was only 70 your worship”!
Title: Re: How accurate is the MPG indicator.??
Post by: E27006 on August 06, 2021, 02:20:54 PM
Speed ==  distance / time.
Distance == speed x time.
The basic signal is Vss  which is derived from a wheel hub sensor  counting pulses  of a toothed ring on the hub as the hub rotates. Vss is processed within the ECU for several other functions of the car such as the power steering and possibly the ABS
Title: Re: How accurate is the MPG indicator.??
Post by: John Ratsey on August 06, 2021, 02:26:49 PM
Why is there a consistent variation?
It must be designed that way.  I think the measurement of fuel consumed is based on regular sampling and it’s clearly in the maker’s interests to err on the side of flattering the consumption, making us all feel better.  I don’t suppose there are any regulations specifying accuracy as it is not a safety issue.

The error on the fibometer seems to be quite closely related to the speedometer over read. Both over reading about 4/5%.

Is the false calculation of petrol consumption perhaps based on a false reading of speed?

Remind me, why does the speedometer over read?
If the mpg reported by the fibometer was an unbiased best estimate based on measurements of fuel into engine and distance travelled then some people would see high mpgs, others low mpgs and many close to correct. However, no one has ever reported the fibometer reporting an mpg lower than the fuel into tank calculation so there must be built-in bias.

I noted when comparing the Mk. 4 speed (a digital display) with the sat-nav speed that the Mk. 4 speedo displays true speed + 1 or 2 mph rather than add a percentage which means that the difference increases with speed. There's no reason for the vehicle to not know the actual speed subject to the limitations caused by tyre pressure and tyre wear (low pressure or worn tyres will increase the apparent speed) as the system counts the wheel revolutions (sensibly the average of all four wheels).
Title: Re: How accurate is the MPG indicator.??
Post by: Jocko on August 06, 2021, 02:38:22 PM
However, no one has ever reported the fibometer reporting an mpg lower than the fuel into tank calculation so there must be built-in bias.
With my Mk1 I have experienced some regular incidences where the calculated mpg is higher than the "Fibometer". About 10-12% of the time, but always with exceptionally good mpg figures (60 mpg+).
Title: Re: How accurate is the MPG indicator.??
Post by: JamtartJazzman on August 10, 2021, 06:53:32 PM
Did a 275 mile trip in the last couple of days. By the end of the trip, the fibber was registering 65 mpg. I re-filled and calculated the consumption at 60.01 mpg.  The last bike I had that was as good was a 250 MZ!
Title: Re: How accurate is the MPG indicator.??
Post by: Jocko on August 14, 2021, 11:07:05 PM
I had a top-up yesterday and for the first time, the fibometer and the calculation matched exactly. 61.6 mpg.
Title: Re: How accurate is the MPG indicator.??
Post by: MRCLICKCLICK on August 15, 2021, 12:31:28 AM
Could I point out that mpg is dependant on many variables. 1 - how many passengers, 2 - weight of each, 3 - luggage, 4 - weather conditions, 5 - how you drive - heavy or light foot, 6 - fuel manufacture ( I know they should all meet the same specification - but they differ from supermarket to supermarket and petrol station brand to another). 7- others. So - please when giving your mpg please state the variables that you are using. And don't forget - manufactures mpg are lies - they aren't done in the real world.
Title: Re: How accurate is the MPG indicator.??
Post by: ColinB on August 15, 2021, 08:39:07 AM
And don't forget - manufactures mpg are lies - they aren't done in the real world.

That’s a bit harsh. Manufacturer’s figures are measured under precisely specified and controlled conditions in an attempt to ensure the figures are comparable across marques. The whole point of the mandated testing is to eliminate the kinds of factors you mention as much as possible to give consumers an objective comparison across brands and models. Of course they don’t represent real world consumption because of all those factors (to which one could add things like ambient temperature, hills, wind strength and direction etc, etc), but that doesn’t make them “lies”.
Title: Re: How accurate is the MPG indicator.??
Post by: MRCLICKCLICK on August 15, 2021, 09:06:10 AM
OK ColinB- maybe a bit harsh - but don't forget how there are several manufacturers that are being taken to court etc for "falsifying" test results to "improve" result - that his lying in my books. However to be fair - Honda, as far as I am aware isn't in this situation. But I have always taken mpg figures with a pinch of salt. My main point is that the only way you are likely to get the quoted MPG is to drive the car in the same way as it was tested - in a laboratory situation - which we cant do - but the thrust of the point is that so many variables do affect mpg - so the only way to give the best comparisons is the state the conditions. For myself I run 2 up - slightly over average weight, no luggage, the same petrol station fuel, no motorway, light footed, eco mode on.
Title: Re: How accurate is the MPG indicator.??
Post by: culzean on August 15, 2021, 09:17:09 AM
And don't forget - manufactures mpg are lies - they aren't done in the real world.

That’s a bit harsh. Manufacturer’s figures are measured under precisely specified and controlled conditions in an attempt to ensure the figures are comparable across marques. The whole point of the mandated testing is to eliminate the kinds of factors you mention as much as possible to give consumers an objective comparison across brands and models. Of course they don’t represent real world consumption because of all those factors (to which one could add things like ambient temperature, hills, wind strength and direction etc, etc), but that doesn’t make them “lies”.

The disparity between EV makers claims and ICE car claims seems to be even wider,  take an EV on motorway and expect 60% of claimed range, on a wet motorway even worse, on a cold, wet motorway even worse.  One bloke took Nissan to court  ( or threatened to - I may have posted a link in electric car thread a while ago ) because he waited for new Leaf with claimed 235 mile range and fast charging, only to find on the longer trips he was getting about 150 miles,  and could only use fast charge once a day,  so he was stuck on a motorway services for hours waiting for car to slow charge and the computer said NO ! ( it is the car computer that controls charging to 'save the battery' ).  Take an EV above 50mph and all the miles per charge claims are out the window, but around town are better than ICE.

If you look on various sites Honda seem to be in the top of the league when claimed MPG vs real mpg is concerned.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44575399
Title: Re: How accurate is the MPG indicator.??
Post by: Expatman on August 15, 2021, 09:39:47 AM
Based on this and a bit of online research it now seems that EV's are totally unsuitable for longer journeys. If you can only fast charge once on a journey then the useable range is dramatically reduced.
Has this been hidden by EV makers or is this information only just being understood by the industry?
Title: Re: How accurate is the MPG indicator.??
Post by: Kremmen on August 15, 2021, 09:52:40 AM
A friend bought a Jag iPace some years ago. The brochure at the time very cleverly said 'up to 250 miles'.

After a few years use through all seasons and various equipment usage his average range is ~175 at best. His main problem is that there are various networks of chargers and the best he could find was 2 miles from his office near Croydon. Using chargers without a contract is very expensive.

Twice a week he has to park up and get a bus as he has no way of safely charging overnight near where he lives. 
Title: Re: How accurate is the MPG indicator.??
Post by: ColinB on August 15, 2021, 09:57:38 AM
OK ColinB- maybe a bit harsh - but don't forget how there are several manufacturers that are being taken to court etc for "falsifying" test results to "improve" result - that his lying in my books.
Again, a bit harsh and possibly incorrect. There has been plenty of publicity about falsifying emissions testing results (for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal), but I don't recall hearing anything  about anyone falsifying the economy figures.
If you know of any sources about falsified economy and/or court cases for ICE cars, please provide a link.

Culzean's point about EVs is interesting, but I think EV charging and range claims are a whole different problem. Was there deliberate lying, or perhaps Nissan didn't make the practicalities as obvious as they should, or did the customers misunderstand? It's noticeable that the BBC link does point out that some of the issues are described in the car handbook, and that the changed test protocol - 3 years ago - brings the claimed range down much closer to what drivers actually experience. And is affected by all the real-world factors identified earlier, plus the added uncertainty of the charging procedures. I suspect the EV industry is only gradually understanding what information needs to be "front and centre" to the consumer.
Title: Re: How accurate is the MPG indicator.??
Post by: MRCLICKCLICK on August 15, 2021, 10:14:09 AM
ColinB - point taken :-). still doesn't alter my views re mpg form Manufacturers - take with a pinch of salt. Been like this since 1965 when I started driving - never been any different. :)
Title: Re: How accurate is the MPG indicator.??
Post by: MRCLICKCLICK on August 15, 2021, 10:37:49 AM
Forgot to say - had Crosstar since Oct last year - done 2600 miles. 2 up, no luggage, no motorway, 50% town / under 40 limit, Eco on, light foot on throttle - ave now 65 mpg. Was lower in winter - the ICE came on more and longer. Have EV regularly running at 50 - 60 MPH - even seen on a short run at 70 MPH. See what happens over the coming Autumn and winter - I think will drop back to 50MPG or so - depending.
Title: Re: How accurate is the MPG indicator.??
Post by: embee on August 15, 2021, 10:42:35 AM
As said, vehicle manufacturers are bound to do things in a very closely specified way. I've been involved in vehicle engineering with various manufacturers and for example emission tests are done in accordance with very closely specified procedures, for example vehicle pre-conditioning and soak times/temps etc before the test is carried out.
Like any business, manufacturers will try to present their product as best they can, and in terms of emissions that means being able to sell cars at all (no compliance, no certificate, no sales) and for fuel economy (CO2) that puts the products into various tax categories etc which can have significant influence on market sales.
For economy, what you can and can't do to a vehicle to prepare it for test is laid down, things like tyre wear etc (rolling resistance). Stuff used to be done which was stretching the regs to the limit (alternator pulley diameters anyone?), but largely stopped now.
Manufacturers have had to do economy tests in accordance with the regs, the fact that it hasn't historically represented real world conditions is not down to the manufacturers. That has changed largely now with the "real world" test cycles, but that is strictly specified too.
Whether an on-board trrip computer is realistic or not is nothing to do with regs however, that's up to the manufacturer. There's little excuse for being wildly wrong on those, anything more than 10% optimistic is not really forgivable.

If you don't like the regulations, blame the regulators not the manufacturers.

Using any means to deliberately make a vehicle run differently during conditions not represented by emission certification testing has always been illegal, the so called "defeat device" ("device" is a legalese term meaning any means by which it is done, it doesn't mean a specific physical object). One of the first things drummed into us when I started in the industry was that you DO NOT do anything which could be interpreted as a defeat device. Any manufacturer who has deliberately done this deserves all the penalties they get, they know what they are doing and they know defeat devices are illegal.

One major factor which influences real world economy is the wind, which is often not appreciated. Drive with a 20mph tail wind and the economy will be very much better than driving into a 20mph head wind.
Heavy rain too, look at the spray coming off wheels and think what is powering that, you need a decent pump to shift that much water and that pump takes power.
Title: Re: How accurate is the MPG indicator.??
Post by: peteo48 on August 15, 2021, 11:23:57 AM
I do find the WLTP figures a lot more real world than the old NEDC figures. I think the combined figure for my car is 46.3 on WLTP and I get around 42 mpg but, to be fair, my usage isn't really balanced with the majority of my journeys being 3 to 5 miles.

EVs do have a problem with over promising and under delivering on a truly epic scale. Here WLTP seems some way from reality. The Honda E is a sub 100 miles car and yet, I think, the WLTP figure is about 135 - it's hard to imagine how perfect the conditions would have to be for a Honda E to attain that.

Title: Re: How accurate is the MPG indicator.??
Post by: Jocko on August 15, 2021, 12:33:18 PM
On board display (reason for this thread) measures fuel used and miles traveled and doesn't give a whit if it is cold and wet or dry and sunny, nor whether there is one in the car or five large adults.
Title: Re: How accurate is the MPG indicator.??
Post by: John Ratsey on August 15, 2021, 01:13:49 PM
I do find the WLTP figures a lot more real world than the old NEDC figures. I think the combined figure for my car is 46.3 on WLTP and I get around 42 mpg but, to be fair, my usage isn't really balanced with the majority of my journeys being 3 to 5 miles.
The WLTP is divided into 4 different sub-parts, each one with a different maximum speed:

    Low, up to 56.5 km/h
    Medium, up to 76.6 km/h
    High, up to 97.4 km/h
    Extra-high, up to 131.3 km/h.

High means up to 60 mph. Extra-high is representative of driving at around / over the UK speed limit See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Class_3b.svg

I find that in warm dry weather my Crosstar delivers (based on fuel into tank) close to what the WLTP data say it should based on proportion of time / distance in the different sub-parts. WLTP, however, lacks a cold weather cycle and this is needed, if only to encourage manufacturers to incorporate measures to improve cold weather fuel economy. such measures exist and don't cost much but there's no commercial incentive to include them. Wet roads also seem to upset my Crosstar's fuel economy. All tyres have to push water out of the way but perhaps some are worse than others.

EVs do have a problem with over promising and under delivering on a truly epic scale. Here WLTP seems some way from reality. The Honda E is a sub 100 miles car and yet, I think, the WLTP figure is about 135 - it's hard to imagine how perfect the conditions would have to be for a Honda E to attain that.
WLTP for EVs suffers even more than with ICEs when power is needed for functions other than moving the vehicle. Heating / aircon is the biggest drain but lights / wipers etc all need power. EVs used on slow journeys will be using bigger proportion of the battery power for these other functions. An hour's worth of heating (for example) needs the same amount of electricity whether driving 10 miles or 50 miles.
Title: Re: How accurate is the MPG indicator.??
Post by: culzean on August 15, 2021, 05:09:48 PM
Based on this and a bit of online research it now seems that EV's are totally unsuitable for longer journeys. If you can only fast charge once on a journey then the useable range is dramatically reduced.
Has this been hidden by EV makers or is this information only just being understood by the industry?

Lots of weasel wording used in adverts, like 'up to XXX miles range',   and 'can charge to 80% in 30 minutes' ( what is the level when charging is started, 20% or 70% ? - also Li-Ion battery can charge to 80% quite quickly,  but it is the remaining 20% that can take quite a while ).  Even Tesla ( the biggest advertiser of fast charging ) admit that fast charging not good for batteries and can shorten battery life quite a bit if used too often.   There are limitations to batteries that have been known about for a long time, but never passed on to the people thinking of getting an EV, and the car makers are certainly not going to advertise the limitations and drawbacks.  Keeping a Li-Ion battery plugged in and fully charged can also shorten battery life ( Li-Ion actually like to be kept about 50% charged for longest life ).
Title: Re: How accurate is the MPG indicator.??
Post by: nowster on August 15, 2021, 06:27:37 PM
( Li-Ion actually like to be kept about 50% charged for longest life ).

It's usually between 50% and 80%.
Title: Re: How accurate is the MPG indicator.??
Post by: culzean on August 15, 2021, 06:52:18 PM
( Li-Ion actually like to be kept about 50% charged for longest life ).

It's usually between 50% and 80%.

even lower than I thought 40% is best.....

https://zeusbatteryproducts.wordpress.com/2012/08/22/5-best-storage-and-charging-tips-for-extending-lifespan-of-lithium-ion-batteries-in-home-business/