Clubjazz - Honda Jazz & HR-V Forums

Honda Jazz Forums => Honda Jazz Mk4 2020 - => Topic started by: Hugh R on July 31, 2021, 10:34:25 AM

Title: Honda v. Toyota hybrid system
Post by: Hugh R on July 31, 2021, 10:34:25 AM
Can someone simply sum-up the essential difference between the two latest versions - and perhaps what the Honda might gain over the Toyota.
Title: Re: Honda v. Toyota hybrid system
Post by: richardfrost on July 31, 2021, 11:12:21 AM
The Toyota system uses the electric motor to boost the petrol engine to keep the petrol engine running at it's maximum efficiency. So it helps out with acceleration and cuts out the petrol engine when coasting is possible and uses the electric system to nudge the car along and maintain speed.

The Honda system uses the electric motor as pretty much full time drive and uses the petrol engine to keep the battery charged up and also uses it when high speeds or hard acceleration need to be maintained in order to avoid excessive battery drain and provide additional motive power.

Both systems aim to use the petrol engine at the peak of efficiency. The difference is in the final drive to the wheels and the balance between electric and petrol engine power.

Both systems should not be confused with battery electric vehicles, which have no petrol engine and rely entirely on power stored in the batteries and regained from kinetic energy. Both hybrid systems can only provide pure electric drive for short distances measured in metres rather than kilometres.
Title: Re: Honda v. Toyota hybrid system
Post by: Kremmen on July 31, 2021, 12:03:45 PM
From what I've read the Jazz 4 pot engine is far more refined than the Yaris 3 pot.
Title: Re: Honda v. Toyota hybrid system
Post by: toolroomboy on July 31, 2021, 02:17:23 PM
I believe the Toyota has a gearbox doesn’t it?
Title: Re: Honda v. Toyota hybrid system
Post by: Pine on July 31, 2021, 07:33:31 PM
Toyota hybrids do not have a gearbox, there is no direct drive between the engine and wheels.  I have a Toyota Corolla but I don't know the technical details of how it works.  Like Honda, Toyota call it an e-CVT although it isn't a CVT in the conventional sense but when it is driven it can behave like one.  Depending on throttle position and whether the hybrid battery is being charged the revs at a steady 60 mph can be as low 1000 rpm, or even zero if it has switched to electric mode under very light load, whereas I understand the jazz at the same speed has a direct link from the engine to the wheels.
Title: Re: Honda v. Toyota hybrid system
Post by: Kenneve on July 31, 2021, 08:12:05 PM
The Honda system is far more refined than some have said, starting off in EV mode and as speed increases it seamlessly switches to Hybrid mode and at high speed it is purely in ICE mode.
Generally from cold, the engine will start up straight away, to provide cabin heat and ensure that the HV battery is in a good state of charge.
The switch from ICE to Hybrid or EV, depends entirely of road conditions and power demand and the driver has no control, on when those changes take place.
It is perfectly possible to travel at 70mph in EV mode for short distances.
Today on the M1, I was in EV mode at 70mph, several times for short distances, maybe 1/2 - 1km or so, generally on slight downhill slopes.
Yes, at around 60mph the car will usually be in ICE mode, but if conditions require addition power, (to overtake etc) it will change back to Hybrid mode, with the ICE speed rising to generate the power.
Title: Re: Honda v. Toyota hybrid system
Post by: Jazzik on July 31, 2021, 08:56:17 PM
I believe the Toyota has a gearbox doesn’t it?

The Toyota Hybrid "gearbox" looks like this:
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRI-4F1QNx_9ReJQKFo74K3znqOzNLN9KVUyZ5VdQdFrRV3T4IgRed2BmpadmdE1PitpDE&usqp=CAU)

It's this BIG!!!

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT-HtZlEf8puPAYRIsSOD_BujDDI_3c_d6Dxg&usqp=CAU)


It's a power split device. How it works you find here:
(https://www.google.nl/images/branding/googlelogo/1x/googlelogo_color_272x92dp.png)

Title: Re: Honda v. Toyota hybrid system
Post by: toolroomboy on July 31, 2021, 10:12:44 PM
How is that dealt with in the Jazz?
Title: Re: Honda v. Toyota hybrid system
Post by: madasafish on August 01, 2021, 10:38:06 AM
Dealt with in the Jazz with lots of gears which engage under certain conditions and an engine linked clutch for direct drive of the wheels by the engine.

See "sum of the parts2  - 5 pictures 2/3  way down page.
https://www.honda.co.uk/cars/world-of-honda/present/hybrid/performance.html
Title: Re: Honda v. Toyota hybrid system
Post by: John Ratsey on August 01, 2021, 11:06:27 AM
Dealt with in the Jazz with lots of gears which engage under certain conditions and an engine linked clutch for direct drive of the wheels by the engine.
It has very few gears with most of the difference between engine speed and road speed being handled by the electronics except when in the direct engine drive mode. See these two videos to help understand what's under the bonnet:

Title: Re: Honda v. Toyota hybrid system
Post by: Hicardo on August 01, 2021, 12:16:52 PM
wow, that you tube video and explanation was excellent..thanks for posting.  There's a lot of engineering going on there..... :o
Title: Re: Honda v. Toyota hybrid system
Post by: Expatman on August 01, 2021, 10:14:20 PM
I just wish the major Motor magazines car reviewers would watch those videos so they understood the way the Honda hybrid system works. It is patently obvious from the reviews I read both on-line and in the magazines that few, if any, car testers have any idea how it works!
Title: Re: Honda v. Toyota hybrid system
Post by: Saycol on August 02, 2021, 10:57:51 AM
I just wish the major Motor magazines car reviewers would watch those videos so they understood the way the Honda hybrid system works. It is patently obvious from the reviews I read both on-line and in the magazines that few, if any, car testers have any idea how it works!

Agreed. Most say it has a CVT gearbox and clearly it hasn’t!
Title: Re: Honda v. Toyota hybrid system
Post by: Gas Jazz on August 02, 2021, 12:55:19 PM
As shown in the WeberAuto youtube video linked by John R, there are no changeable gears in the e ECVT.

The final drive is a fixed final ratio determined by reduction gears engaged in either engine drive of motor drive mode as appropriate.

Hence the only “gears” are those in the reduction / engagement train which result in a single fixed ratio.

Therefore when in engine mode the “gear changing engine noise” you hear is simulated as there are no gears in the transmission to change!  I have no idea why Honda in their wisdom chose to include this feature unless they thought it would sound sporty and be attractive to the driver!

Title: Re: Honda v. Toyota hybrid system
Post by: John Ratsey on August 02, 2021, 01:06:52 PM
Therefore when in engine mode the “gear changing engine noise” you hear is simulated as there are no gears in the transmission to change!  I have no idea why Honda in their wisdom chose to include this feature unless they thought it would sound sporty and be attractive to the driver!
There's the perception that drivers are annoyed by the continuous changing of engine revs without the corresponding change in vehicle speed which is a characteristic of CVT transmissions as the engine tries to match its power output to the road conditions. Hence, unless in direct drive, the engine appears to have some preferred operating speeds and jumps between them. There may also be some science behind this as the designers have tried to configure the engine to operate at maximum efficiency at certain revs. The best efficiency is at around 2000 rpm as shown in the first video. However, there could be another optimum operating speed in the higher power output zone.
Title: Re: Honda v. Toyota hybrid system
Post by: Gas Jazz on August 02, 2021, 01:22:25 PM
Hi John

I understand / agree with your observations with optimisation of engine revs etc where there are gears to change drive ratios as in a normal or cvt gearbox.

However, for the Jazz e CVT when in engine mode the engine is “locked” to the drive wheels by the fixed ratio reduction gears - a bit like riding a single speed bicycle. This being the case I’m not sure how revs can be optimised without impacting on road speed.

Having said this it’s all very clever and I’m not!
Title: Re: Honda v. Toyota hybrid system
Post by: nowster on August 02, 2021, 01:48:48 PM
There are actually several different operating modes:

* Pure EV
* ICE driving generator, electric motor driving wheels
* Pure ICE "overdrive"
* ICE driving wheels and generator
* ICE driving wheels with electric motor assist
* Regeneration (via main electric motor)

I also wonder if the generator is also used in reverse as a starter motor for the ICE.
Title: Re: Honda v. Toyota hybrid system
Post by: John Ratsey on August 02, 2021, 01:58:31 PM
However, for the Jazz e CVT when in engine mode the engine is “locked” to the drive wheels by the fixed ratio reduction gears - a bit like riding a single speed bicycle. This being the case I’m not sure how revs can be optimised without impacting on road speed.
I suspect that such optimisations are matters of a few percent which help the overall mpg, but are less than the efficiency gain by using direct drive which avoids the generator / power conversion / motor losses.

The vehicle's behaviour sometimes has us puzzled but I think we can be sure that it's guided by the objective of achieving maximum overall efficiency.

I also wonder if the generator is also used in reverse as a starter motor for the ICE.
Yes. Both motors can be used as generators or vice versa. Hence the term "two motor hybrid" although, at any time, only one is a motor and the other a generator.

Another situation when the generator attached to the engine becomes a motor is when going down a long fairly steep hill and, once the battery is full, the system goes into engine braking mode. It took me over six months to first notice this taking place.
Title: Re: Honda v. Toyota hybrid system
Post by: Jeff15 on August 16, 2021, 09:06:53 AM
I cannot get over how seamless the whole thing is between the engine and battery power, it is a clever piece of technology.
Title: Re: Honda v. Toyota hybrid system
Post by: sportse on August 16, 2021, 10:43:53 AM
Driving on the motorway yesterday I had the power display up - it was switching between direct engine drive, hybrid drive and regeneration over a few seconds… totally seamlessly as without the display up you wouldn’t know.

I think Honda should call it a ‘range extender EV with a direct cruise gear’ rather than just saying it’s a hybrid.

The system is much more advanced than Toyota’s.
Title: Re: Honda v. Toyota hybrid system
Post by: nowster on August 16, 2021, 10:49:50 AM
I cannot get over how seamless the whole thing is between the engine and battery power, it is a clever piece of technology.

Apart from when the petrol engine audibly kicks in at low speeds to charge the HV battery, in normal driving it's impossible to tell when you're in one power mode or another. It's really smooth.
Title: Re: Honda v. Toyota hybrid system
Post by: Kenneve on August 16, 2021, 01:10:05 PM
That's because in all conditions except high speed cruising, the car is driven by the electric motor, with power coming from either the battery, or the generator, or both. The only time the car is driven directly by the engine, is in cruising speeds above around 55mph, when a clutch closes to provide direct drive.
If more power is required, then the clutch opens and the vehicle reverts to electric drive, with the engine speed increasing to power the generator as required.
Its still possible that at low power requirements, or downhill,  even at 70+mph, that the system will revert to EV mode and the driver is totally unaware of the changes, unless watching the instruments.
Title: Re: Honda v. Toyota hybrid system
Post by: Hicardo on August 16, 2021, 08:25:55 PM
Having owned both Toyota Auris hybrid and the Honda mk4 jazz hybrid, I think yes I also prefer the Honda for the reasons already stated, lively, so smooth, great economy.  The Toyota is a great system too, plus its proved incredibly reliable.  One thing I prefer on the Toyota though is the ability to choose when to go into EV mode.  its really useful for sitting around with electrics on and engine off for ages drinking coffee and not having to worry at all about battery depletion.  BTW im not a cabbie, I just like to sit around drinking coffee and chatting in the car  ;D

You can get a similar effect in the 'ev button free' Crosstar by turning off the a/c and opening the windows.  this way the traction battery will last ages before starting the engine when parked. 

 :D :D
Title: Re: Honda v. Toyota hybrid system
Post by: nowster on August 16, 2021, 08:40:16 PM
That's because in all conditions except high speed cruising, the car is driven by the electric motor, with power coming from either the battery, or the generator, or both. The only time the car is driven directly by the engine, is in cruising speeds above around 55mph, when a clutch closes to provide direct drive..

Actually, I've occasionally seen the cog on the display at speeds below 50mph. I've also seen the cog with electric assist.
Title: Re: Honda v. Toyota hybrid system
Post by: Hicardo on August 18, 2021, 06:10:31 PM
never seen a cog.  what view are you using pray  :P. I tend to use the simple view 99pct of the time, and fuel consumption the other 1pct  :D
Title: Re: Honda v. Toyota hybrid system
Post by: Kenneve on August 18, 2021, 07:28:04 PM
I've also seen the cog with electric assist.
Not sure about that.
Page 7 Engine (Direct Drive), of the Power Flow display, shows the Engine driving the car (with cog), but the HV Battery is being charged, not discharged!
Title: Re: Honda v. Toyota hybrid system
Post by: John Ratsey on August 18, 2021, 08:25:27 PM
I've also seen the cog with electric assist.
Not sure about that.
Page 7 Engine (Direct Drive), of the Power Flow display, shows the Engine driving the car (with cog), but the HV Battery is being charged, not discharged!
I've seen both. There can be direct drive with a trickle of electricity being used to get the battery charge up to 70% and there can also be direct drive with some assistance from the battery (eg for some acceleration or adverse gradient). Once the battery gets to 30% charge and if more power is still needed than the engine can produce at the revs determined by direct drive then the vehicle will switch to electric drive.