Clubjazz - Honda Jazz & HR-V Forums
Honda Jazz Forums => Honda Jazz Mk4 2020 - => Topic started by: MRCLICKCLICK on November 06, 2020, 11:39:53 AM
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Hi All. First frosts of the year. Outside heavily coated in frost - remover with cold water - OK. Get in car - inside dripping with condensation. Started up - set front demister on - couldn't handle it - after 10 minutes still dripping - had to wile excess water off with towel - then demist took over. Anybody else had problem - maybe its because its a new car and little lived in yet? Ideas. Engine was running.
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Wet carpet?
Water in boot due to leak? Water under carpets due to failed window /door seal?
Only times I have had condensation like that was in the 1960s when a stone smashed Austin A35 windscreen and I drove home 40 miles in pouring rain. Took a month to dry car out in winter.. (Banffshire)
Definitely something wrong.
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No - not carpet's etc - just on inside of windscreen. In my last HRV it demisted within a few minutes. Been online etc - looked at manuals - not a great help.
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Very odd to get this before you've powered up. I know you can get windscreen misting from the dash top vents before the heater kicks in.
Are you running the aircon to help keep the inside dry ? Only asking because some turn it off in Winter thinking it 's only there to blow cold air.
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I suspect that the underlying problem is that the hybrid system means that it takes a long time, if ever, for the engine to warm up properly when the weather is cold because the engine may only be running for half the time (depending on the operating conditions - town driving needs a lot less power on average than the open road) and the cabin heating grabs whatever heat is circulating. Using the heated seats shoud help with the general cabin warmup.
In my opinion, Honda made a mistake in not designing the electrically-powered air conditioning system to run in reverse as a heat pump and they also seem to have missed the next best solution which would be a heating element under the windscreen vents so there is instant warm air. I thought that Japanese winters were cold but maybe they are a dry cold, with minimal condensation problems, rather than the damp cold that we get here.
I would suggest that you email Honda UK customer.serviceuk@honda-eu.com explaining your experience and asking for a solution. If nothing else, this makes them aware that there's a problem. In the mean time, a silica gel dehumidifier https://www.amazon.co.uk/Netagon-Portable-Dehumidifier-Condensation-Eliminator/dp/B08L5B9J4W could be a work-around.
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Thanks thoughts. I see what happens over next days - I do have a windscreen cover - which I didn't use that night - so will see what that does.
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Might help, might not
https://www.confused.com/on-the-road/maintenance/how-to-beat-condensation-in-your-car
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Hi All. First frosts of the year. Outside heavily coated in frost - remover with cold water - OK. Get in car - inside dripping with condensation. Started up - set front demister on - couldn't handle it - after 10 minutes still dripping - had to wile excess water off with towel - then demist took over. Anybody else had problem - maybe its because its a new car and little lived in yet? Ideas. Engine was running.
I think internal condensation only occurs when the car is full of warm moist air when parked and then the air temperature drops sharply. An external windscreen cover won't stop this. I think you have to mop it up with a cloth or sponge and then rely on the car's A/C to keep it clear.
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Condensation normally affects all windows equally. If it was just the windscreen I would consider the cold water you used to deice it. I never use water. If I have time I let the demister do it. If I am in a hurry I scrape it. Don't use water next time and see what happens.
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Had similar problem in my mk3
Condensation literally running down inside of windscreen
Dealer found no leaks or issues now put moisture absorbent pack in car during winter months seems to sort problem
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I switched my aircon on when I bought the car and it has never been switched off since.
Air holds moisture. The hotter the air is then the more moisture it can hold. When air cools down it will reach the point where it cant hold any more moisture, i.e. it is 100% capacity (Known as 100% Relative Humidity). It will get to this state when it comes into contact with a cold surface (such as the windscreen), at which point some of the moisture condenses.
When air passes through the air conditioning unit it cools down, reaches 100% RH, and sheds water, hence the pool you sometimes see under the car. On entering the less cold car, it heats up and can then hold more moisture, hence the condensation on the screen is absorbed.
So with the air conditioning on you are effectively bringing dryer air into the car.
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My last three cars, were all bought new.
As in, probably, standing around for some while, before sale. In all weathers.
All three cars, (Yaris, Jazz, Jazz), misted up, much more than any previous car. Until they were a few weeks old....
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It also depends on the state you leave the car in. If it is humid and warm in the car, then that moisture has to go somewhere as the cabin cools down. Best to let cold air into the car before you lock it up for the night.
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I’m entering my fourth winter with my hybrid. No issues with the heating. I generally have my climate control set to 22C and auto. The engine will run immediately to power the aircon, heat demand and heated seats, before I move anywhere. This car heats up way faster than all of my previous diesels and about the same as my petrol 2013 Jazz.
I strongly suspect it’s a combination of being a new car maybe (?) and pouring cold water on the windscreen. Especially the cold water, given your windscreen was the only glass to get the condensation. My technique is a couple of sprays of de-icer and then scrape, or leave it to the car.
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Thanks all - I think probably you all have given reasons why it happened - so hopefully as time goes on and I chance some of by behaviour it will not occur again.
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Let’s look at the science here. If you want to change the state of a substance from solid to liquid (eg melt the ice on the screen), you have to supply an energy input, aka latent heat of fusion. So where does that heat come from? If you use a de-icer spray, some of the energy will come from the spray itself but most of it will come from the glass of the screen. In other words, you will be cooling the screen in order to melt the ice. If the interior has any moisture in it, then that moisture will condense on the cooling glass. So you are actually making the condensation worse. A similar thing will happen if you use cold water on the exterior, although the water may provide more of the latent heat (depending on the ambient and water temperatures) so the cooling of the glass should be less. Best way to clear ice from the screen without making the inside condensation worse is to remove the ice without it changing state, ie. by scraping it off. Has the side effect of warming you up on a cold morning as well!
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Let’s look at the science here. If you want to change the state of a substance from solid to liquid (eg melt the ice on the screen), you have to supply an energy input, aka latent heat of fusion. So where does that heat come from? If you use a de-icer spray, some of the energy will come from the spray itself but most of it will come from the glass of the screen. In other words, you will be cooling the screen in order to melt the ice. If the interior has any moisture in it, then that moisture will condense on the cooling glass. So you are actually making the condensation worse. A similar thing will happen if you use cold water on the exterior, although the water may provide more of the latent heat (depending on the ambient and water temperatures) so the cooling of the glass should be less. Best way to clear ice from the screen without making the inside condensation worse is to remove the ice without it changing state, ie. by scraping it off. Has the side effect of warming you up on a cold morning as well!
Don't follow the logic here. At the start of the process, the screen is the same temperature as the ice as the two are in contact. If the screen were warmer then the ice would melt naturally due to heat transfer (Delta T = T2 - T1).
Given that the temperatures are the same, how does the ice warming up take temperature from the screen. Surely the opposite would occur. As the water is now warmer than the ice it replaced and therefore warmer than the screen, it would start to heat the screen.
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You need 80 calories to melt every gram of ice. This energy has to come from somewhere. That’s why it’s best to scrape it off.
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Let’s look at the science here. If you want to change the state of a substance from solid to liquid (eg melt the ice on the screen), you have to supply an energy input, aka latent heat of fusion. So where does that heat come from? If you use a de-icer spray, some of the energy will come from the spray itself but most of it will come from the glass of the screen. In other words, you will be cooling the screen in order to melt the ice. If the interior has any moisture in it, then that moisture will condense on the cooling glass. So you are actually making the condensation worse. A similar thing will happen if you use cold water on the exterior, although the water may provide more of the latent heat (depending on the ambient and water temperatures) so the cooling of the glass should be less. Best way to clear ice from the screen without making the inside condensation worse is to remove the ice without it changing state, ie. by scraping it off. Has the side effect of warming you up on a cold morning as well!
Don't follow the logic here. At the start of the process, the screen is the same temperature as the ice as the two are in contact. If the screen were warmer then the ice would melt naturally due to heat transfer (Delta T = T2 - T1).
Given that the temperatures are the same, how does the ice warming up take temperature from the screen. Surely the opposite would occur. As the water is now warmer than the ice it replaced and therefore warmer than the screen, it would start to heat the screen.
The de-icer spray does not contain any heat ( unless it has been warmed in warm water or in front of a fire )- ice does not warm up when you spray alcohol based de-icer onto the glass - instead the freezing point of the ice is lowered as the alcohol mixes with the ice ( basically pure water freezes at 0degC but if it has anything dissolved in it the freezing point is now going to be lower, mainly because the dissolved substance disrupts the molecules ability to stick together and form ice ) - normal salt will lower freezing point to about -5degC. Spraying alcohol onto most things will cool the surface because of the alcohol evaporating - it is a balance between how much heat is lost and how much the freezing point is lowered by the alcohol. I always preferred to scrape the ice off the screen while car engine was warming up rather than use de-icer as the de-icer normally caused smears on the screen, the best de-icer I used was AutoGlym, it was more expensive than average but you only had to use a small amount and it did not smear.
Using water to de-ice the screen is not a good idea, if the water is too warm it can cause thermal shock and crack the glass, and anyway the water will just find somewhere else to run off and freeze, maybe stick the wipers to the screen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De-icing
You could try covering the screen with alcohol based de-icer and setting fire to it :o
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It also depends on the state you leave the car in. If it is humid and warm in the car, then that moisture has to go somewhere as the cabin cools down. Best to let cold air into the car before you lock it up for the night.
This is what we do with our cars. Drive with the heater of for the last couple of miles, and if not raining, get the windows open for the last few hundred yards. Balances the interior temperature to the ambient temperature. Only learnt this a couple of years ago after 25+yrs of motoring, and it really does work.
The other thing I do, is when I go to the car if its cold, is pour a litre of warm/tepid water over the screen. Instantly gets the screen clear.
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Very odd to get this before you've powered up. I know you can get windscreen misting from the dash top vents before the heater kicks in.
Are you running the aircon to help keep the inside dry ? Only asking because some turn it off in Winter thinking it 's only there to blow cold air.
It is odd to get it to a great extent the OP describes - although our Jazz's always seemed to need the a/c on.
Could be it the a/c was stuggling to clear it as the temp was too low - a/c supposed to stop working at 3-4C although I have to say in our Jazz's it was never obvious that it wasn't working. On cars in general I used to try and remember to turn the a/c off before arriving home in order to dry out the evaporator so it's not left wet overnight only to dump its moisture into the car on startup - however I found with the Jazz's that the car would just mist up anyway, and on my Mercedes (and, I suspect, wife's VW) it apparently never goes fully off anyway, they don't have a clutch on the a/c like the Jazz does.
I
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Given that the temperatures are the same, how does the ice warming up take temperature from the screen. Surely the opposite would occur. As the water is now warmer than the ice it replaced and therefore warmer than the screen, it would start to heat the screen.
Think of it this way. If you start off with a quantity of ice at 0 deg C, then apply just enough heat to melt it, you’ll end up with the same quantity of water at 0 deg C. But you’ve had to add energy to do that, so think about where that energy has come from.
Culzean is correct in pointing out that adding the de-icer will lower the freezing point, but no matter what the freezing point is you still can’t have a change of state without providing the latent heat of fusion. And that will cool down the glass and promote condensation.
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Very odd to get this before you've powered up. I know you can get windscreen misting from the dash top vents before the heater kicks in.
Are you running the aircon to help keep the inside dry ? Only asking because some turn it off in Winter thinking it 's only there to blow cold air.
however I found with the Jazz's that the car would just mist up anyway, and on my Mercedes (and, I suspect, wife's VW) it apparently never goes fully off anyway, they don't have a clutch on the a/c like the Jazz does.
The Jazz uses a fixed displacement scroll type compressor - so to stop it compressing the gas it needs to be completely disconnected from the drive ( which is what the solenoid operated magnetic clutch does ). Even variable displacement compressors can be prevented from compressing gas if the compressor is bypassed or piston stroke is prevented - the displacement control valve replaces the clutch used on a fixed displacement type.
https://axleaddict.com/auto-repair/Variable-Displacement-Compressors
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Internal condensation releases 540 calories of latent heat from every gram of water condensing, which is enough heat to melt over 6 grams of ice. Some of this heat must go into the glass. So perhaps when parking on a frosty night, it would be sensible to keep plenty of warm moist air in the car to reduce ice formation. Is it easier to mop up condensation inside than to scrape ice off outside?
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Internal condensation releases 540 calories of latent heat from every gram of water condensing, which is enough heat to melt over 6 grams of ice. Some of this heat must go into the glass. So perhaps when parking on a frosty night, it would be sensible to keep plenty of warm moist air in the car to reduce ice formation. Is it easier to mop up condensation inside than to scrape ice off outside?
Don't fancy scraping ice off the inside of car windows....
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I've had to do that on several occasions. Even worse, My FIAT 126 had a single skin roof with a felt stick-on pad in the centre and one winter we had 10 days of freezing fog. The car was so frosted inside I couldn't use the heater. My mate was even worse. He had the fabric roof version, and every time he went over a bump, he had a blizzard inside the car as the thick frost was dislodged.
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I've had to do that on several occasions. Even worse, My FIAT 126 had a single skin roof with a felt stick-on pad in the centre and one winter we had 10 days of freezing fog. The car was so frosted inside I couldn't use the heater. My mate was even worse. He had the fabric roof version, and every time he went over a bump, he had a blizzard inside the car as the thick frost was dislodged.
My mini van was basically just a tin can, with sliding windows. No chance of that ever keeping warm in winter. At least the windows were small and easy to reach for scraping!
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I used to drive to Scotland in mid winter late at night using country roads to get quicker to Kirkcaldy - in 1999 before the motorway was extended .
I was in a company Rover 820 and at -22C on the car external thermometer, the windscreen misted up despite heater on flat out directed at the windscreen. I had to slow down to 20mph to enable the heater to clear the screen.
(in all other aspects, the car was rubbish - not just the heating system)
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Big pity you can’t specify a heated windscreen, cars with heated windscreens clear any condensation immediately and defrost is so much easier than having to scrape, scrape, scrape with a scraper!! Wonder why it’s not even an option?
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In my opinion, Honda made a mistake in not designing the electrically-powered air conditioning system to run in reverse as a heat pump and they also seem to have missed the next best solution which would be a heating element under the windscreen vents so there is instant warm air. I thought that Japanese winters were cold but maybe they are a dry cold, with minimal condensation problems, rather than the damp cold that we get here.
A dual mode heating pump would be a complicated and expensive solution for a hybrid car with a heat source always avaiable as the thermal engine. A Jazz is not a plugin hybrid or a battery electric vehicle so it does not have to run many kilometers with the petrol engine off, so the lack of heat is limited to the first 3-4 minutes after a cold startup.
In a hybrid car like Jazz or Yaris or Corolla, you only have to wait for the engine warmup (both for and there are specific strategies and protocols for fast warmup; keep in mind that the engine must be warm because the kat must be warm to limit pollution And if you cannot wait (or you want immediately warm), a simple and cheap 1000watt PTC resistor would be enough for the first 3-4 minutes after a cold start, as in some diesel engines.
The other issue, talking about condensation, could be the aircon: we have two ways to demist our glasses, one is blowing hot air, the other is blowing dry air. We can obtain dry air switching on the aircon, but this will work bad with low temperatures due to ice growing in the internal heat exchanger. So we should set manually the climate, setting aircon on, full hot air to the windshield and recirculation on if external temperature is lower than 3°C, this to prevent ice on the evaporator.
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It also depends on the state you leave the car in. If it is humid and warm in the car, then that moisture has to go somewhere as the cabin cools down. Best to let cold air into the car before you lock it up for the night.
Soon after getting my Jazz I found one morning the inside of the windscreen was very wet with condensation (no other windows). I tried the tip above, when getting home I opened all the doors and tailgate for 10sec or so to let the warm air out and cold air in. Since doing this I have not had any condensation on the inside of the screen in the cold mornings. It's a bit of a faff, but it seems to work in my experience.
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But if Honda offered a heated windscreen then the problem would be solved.
Seriously having the option of a heated windscreen would certainly increase the attractiveness of the Crosstar for me. That and a self dimming rear view mirror of course.
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But if Honda offered a heated windscreen then the problem would be solved.
Seriously having the option of a heated windscreen would certainly increase the attractiveness of the Crosstar for me. That and a self dimming rear view mirror of course.
Lack of a self-dimming mirror is almost a dealbreaker for me...
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But if Honda offered a heated windscreen then the problem would be solved.
Seriously having the option of a heated windscreen would certainly increase the attractiveness of the Crosstar for me. That and a self dimming rear view mirror of course.
Lack of a self-dimming mirror is almost a dealbreaker for me...
That’s my problem as well. I’ve got used to self dimming rear view mirror and a heated windscreen so doing without them will take some careful thought. Mind you I’ve also got electric memory seats which with 2 drivers is a real boon because you program the seat position to your individual key fob. When either driver unlocks the car with their key fob the drivers seat quickly adjusts to that drivers preference - no faffing around with manual adjustment to get it just right. Guess I will have to accept there are always compromises when changing cars.
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I have just watched this (below) Honda video and he says the Crosstar has a heated windscreen???? I can find no mention of this anywhere else.
Any ideas? Perhaps it went the same way as the heated steering wheel in the Crosstar claimed in the Honda U.K. on line brochure. (now updated.)
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/new/202012317531087?model=JAZZ&price-from=19000&newCarHasDeal=on&postcode=bh148rt&radius=1500&sort=price-asc&onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly%20New&onesearchad=Used&price-to=30000&advertising-location=at_cars&aggregatedTrim=Crosstar%20EX&make=HONDA&only-delivery-option=on&page=1&modal=video
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I don’t think a heated windscreen is fitted in European market Jazz models.
I saw a Japanese Fit video showing a heated windscreen button in the switch panel that includes the parking sensor and headlight aim adjustment switches but think this may only heat the windscreen wiper part of the screen, same as fitted to some Kia models.
The Japanese market windscreen also appears to include a green tinted sun screen across the top edge of the glass.
The UK website specs still show a rear centre armrest, which is included in the Japanese spec but don’t think this is fitted to any European Jazz models. The Republic of Ireland Honda website also shows tilting mirrors in reverse as standard from mid spec and above (SR and above UK equivalent model) but again, I don’t think this feature is actually included.
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Wouldn't you think they could get the website accurate.
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I don’t think a heated windscreen is fitted in European market Jazz models.
I saw a Japanese Fit video showing a heated windscreen button in the switch panel that includes the parking sensor and headlight aim adjustment switches but think this may only heat the windscreen wiper part of the screen, same as fitted to some Kia models.
The Japanese market windscreen also appears to include a green tinted sun screen across the top edge of the glass.
The UK website specs still show a rear centre armrest, which is included in the Japanese spec but don’t think this is fitted to any European Jazz models. The Republic of Ireland Honda website also shows tilting mirrors in reverse as standard from mid spec and above (SR and above UK equivalent model) but again, I don’t think this feature is actually included.
The Honda Belgium brochure I received from my dealer also mentions the tilting mirrors for mid and top spec. Not a word however in the manual. When I select reverse, there’s no tilt ::)
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My post #118
https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=12540.118
UK showroom showing MY21 Jazz EX with tilting passenger mirror.
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I guess it’s covered by an ‘errors and omissions excepted’ clause.
Perhaps some non European markets have these features and the European specs weren’t finalised when the documents were published.
I think drive away door locking is a feature in some markets and I’ve noticed that some countries don’t have the power door lock button on the drivers door panel. Perhaps these cars are the ones with drive away auto locking.
There are also some countries that have a ‘TRIP’ button in the lower half of the large instrument brightness button. Perhaps these versions have a more limited trip meter and don’t require the comprehensive trip counter options accessed by the steering wheel controls. These models appear to have some of the steering wheel controls blanked out, such as no voice button. The blank button near the gear selector has a defeat switch for the engine stop/start in traffic feature, which I suspect applies to the non hybrid engine only and isn’t applicable in the hybrid engine, which would manage the engine shutdown as it sees fit.
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I've written to Honda U.K. asking them to clear up the anomalies re heated windscreen, heated steering wheel and dipping mirrors.
Also asked for comments re condensed screen.