Clubjazz - Honda Jazz & HR-V Forums
Honda Jazz Forums => Honda Jazz Mk1 2002-2008 => Topic started by: Jazzmeister on June 08, 2020, 10:51:01 PM
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Hi Guys
I'm new to the forum, thanks for letting me in!
I have a Honda CRV Gen 1 that I would like to replace with a Jazz Mk1 and when I go looking for one I'd like to know what the known issues are to look out for with these models?
It will probably be the 1.4 with manual gearbox, I'm too afraid of the automatic unless someone can convince me they are not overly expensive to maintain or repair! :o
Any advice and tips in this regard would be appreciated.
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Only problem I have had with mine was a noisy gearbox. Had to get input bearing replaced. Common fault. Check with the engine running. Clutch down - quiet. Clutch up - rattle or whine.
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Only problem I have had with mine was a noisy gearbox. Had to get input bearing replaced. Common fault. Check with the engine running. Clutch down - quiet. Clutch up - rattle or whine.
How loud should the rattle or whine be, all manual gearboxes make some whine?
Seriously though from what I have heard these are ridiculously reliable vehicles but that can't be only thing you need to look out for?
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The gearbox issue is the only serious one, also rear wheel bearing failed prematurely, this should have already failed and been replaced on a mk1 by now, water leaks into the spare wheel well from failed sealant in the roof joints, this is a £5 fix with the appropriate sealant and the radios pack up, there is a £2 part to fix this if you are able to strip down the innards of the stereo system (I didn't bother on mine, CD still worked).
Other than that only rust, wear & tear like any car, my old 2003 1.4 manual is still ripping up and down the country's motorways in the hands of a workmate, he's had no issues with it in nearly a year since I sold it, I had it 13 years and very little went wrong compared to every other car I've owned long term.
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Rear brake pipes can corrode in area of rear torsion beam ( just before they go into flexible pipes ) - someone at Honda thought it was a good idea to strip plastic covering off the last 200mm or so of pipe - not an expensive fix. You have to be very unlucky indeed to have a major problem with a Jap car, and Honda + Toyota are the best. Does not pay to buy many cars ( German, Italian or French ) over 5 years old, but with Jap cars it is likely to be the bodywork that gives a problem after 20+ years, not the mechanicals or electrics. The gearbox whine starts in lower gears, if test driving accelerate hard in lower gears with radio off, that will trigger it if it is there.
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Thanks for all the replies!
At what mileage do the gearbox bearings normally pack up?
We also get the 1.5Vtec model where I am, what is that motor like, does the Vtec give issues as they get older?
These have timing chains so typically that will not need changing for the life of the vehicle?
Do the water pumps have a service interval?
One thing I have seen mentioned is the dual spark plugs are Iridium or similar and a hellishly expensive so probably best if they have been relatively recently replaced?
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We didn't get the mk1 1.5 vtec in the UK, just 1.2 & 1.4 i-dsi (dual spark ignition), the spark plugs for the i-dsi are standard not iridium (in the UK anyway), the last set I changed were about £2 each (x8 spark plugs) for NGK brand, so dirt cheap, they're still in it 3 years later working fine.
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We didn't get the mk1 1.5 vtec in the UK, just 1.2 & 1.4 i-dsi (dual spark ignition), the spark plugs for the i-dsi are standard not iridium (in the UK anyway), the last set I changed were about £2 each (x8 spark plugs) for NGK brand, so dirt cheap, they're still in it 3 years later working fine.
Seems the Vtec version is probably not the one to get, I saw someone on the fuel economy thread mentioning their 1.4 has lots of low down torque and looking at the torque specs the 1.4 gets 119 N⋅m (88 lb⋅ft) at 2800 rpm whereas the 1.5vtec is 145 N⋅m (107 lb⋅ft) / at 4,300 rpm, I would much prefer the torque at lower revs because one thing I don't enjoy about my CRV is the lack of lower down torque it has lots of power but you have to rev the hell out of it.
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No hard and fast rules on the gearbox mileage, you just have to use your ears. Our mk.1 has done over 170,000 miles (275,000KM) and the gearbox is still fine. Some have had failures around 75-100,000 miles.
All the L-series engines are pretty bomb proof. The cam drive chains are over-engineered for the job, I think you would be unlucky for one to fail, even if the engine had been neglected. Very rare to hear of water pumps failing, but the pump is external and driven off the auxiliary belt, so relatively easy to change.
As Mick says, the DSI engine (dual spark) plugs are bog standard plugs and are only a couple of pounds each here in the UK. The later VTEC engines use the iridium tipped plugs. Yes, they are more expensive, but there are only 4 and the replacement interval is much longer, so it's not the end of the world.
Here in the UK, we only had the 1.2/1.4 DSI engines in the mark 1. Not sure what the mark 1 1.5 Jazz/Fit would be, Honda did make DSI and VTEC versions of the L15 engine early on.
Seems the Vtec version is probably not the one to get, I saw someone on the fuel economy thread mentioning their 1.4 has lots of low down torque and looking at the torque specs the 1.4 gets 119 N⋅m (88 lb⋅ft) at 2800 rpm whereas the 1.5vtec is 145 N⋅m (107 lb⋅ft) / at 4,300 rpm, I would much prefer the torque at lower revs because one thing I don't enjoy about my CRV is the lack of lower down torque it has lots of power but you have to rev the hell out of it.
We have the 1.4 DSI in a 2008 mark 1, and a 1.4 VTEC in a 2015 mark 2. I actually prefer the DSI, it is far more tractable at low revs and is easier to drive around town. The VTEC is gutless at low revs, but the power is there when you open the throttle up.
I believe the 1.5 VTEC is a better proposition, but fuel economy suffers a bit.
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Clutch down - quiet. Clutch up - rattle or whine.
Take my word for it, you can hear it clearly. My rebuilt gearbox is silent with the clutch up in neutral.
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Ok the 1.4 DSI looks to be the winner.
Do these models ever have aircon issues like the Mk2 CRV that has what is called the black death aircon failure that costs the earth to repair?
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Do these models ever have aircon issues like the Mk2 CRV that has what is called the black death aircon failure that costs the earth to repair?
I think that particular issue was down to a specific type of compressor which had a high failure rate. It distributed bits of itself throughout the system, meaning that virtually every component had to be replaced in order to prevent it recurring. AFAIK, the Jazz/Fit does not suffer from that issue, I certainly haven't heard of it in the UK.
One problem the Jazz does have is the vulnerable position of the condensor, they are prone to being holed by stones. Here in the wet UK, they do suffer from an additional problem - the condensor gets clogged by road debris which rots the aluminium ribs in the condensor. The condensor's internal pipework doesn't actually fail, but the effectiveness of the condensor can be severely reduced.
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We have the 1.4 DSI in a 2008 mark 1, and a 1.4 VTEC in a 2015 mark 2. I actually prefer the DSI, it is far more tractable at low revs and is easier to drive around town. The VTEC is gutless at low revs, but the power is there when you open the throttle up.
I agree both myself and her indoors much preferred the I- DSI engined Jazzes to the i-VTEC she got later ( she got MK2 Jazz Si - I got a 1.8 Civic LOL ). IMHO the DSI is a much better more tractable engine for the Jazz as an 'urban' car, but having said that we went from Shropshire to both North of Scotland and Cornwall in our DSI engined Jazzes more than once ( over 2000 miles in two weeks in one Scottish trip ) and not a problem, the MK2 steering and suspension better, but the engine ? That is very debatable - and the boot seems to get smaller as the MK number rises, and we miss the 'roller blind' rear boot cover that was fitted to MK1. Only problem with MK1 is that the 'youngest' one you can buy is now 12 years old, so don't expect it to be perfect, but still a safer bet than buying some makes at that age.
Despite the advice to have tappet gaps checked regularly on DSI one of mine did over 120,000 miles without checking ( my first Civic did over 190,000 miles without any adjustment - in fact except for cambelt it never had a spanner on engine or transmission ), I think Honda were being ultra cautious because of new cam layout ( or were looking for work to keep their dealer workshops busy ) - but Honda engineering is bulletproof.
Following on from sparky paul comment about aircon condensor I did fit aluminium diamond mesh ( sprayed black ) to lower grille for a bit of peace of mind, another thing is the condensors don't like pressure washing as this can also make the finning disappear....
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One problem the Jazz does have is the vulnerable position of the condensor, they are prone to being holed by stones. Here in the wet UK, they do suffer from an additional problem - the condensor gets clogged by road debris which rots the aluminium ribs in the condensor. The condensor's internal pipework doesn't actually fail, but the effectiveness of the condensor can be severely reduced.
Slightly off-topic, but are there same issues in Mk3 Jazz? As for me there seems to be very direct path for airborne stones hitting the condenser.
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One problem the Jazz does have is the vulnerable position of the condensor, they are prone to being holed by stones. Here in the wet UK, they do suffer from an additional problem - the condensor gets clogged by road debris which rots the aluminium ribs in the condensor. The condensor's internal pipework doesn't actually fail, but the effectiveness of the condensor can be severely reduced.
Slightly off-topic, but are there same issues in Mk3 Jazz? As for me there seems to be very direct path for airborne stones hitting the condenser.
Possible, one failing of Honda is lack of protection of lower radiators / condensers - bit of a PITA to retro-fit mesh and make it look totally neat - ally diamond mesh and cable ties can work, if you spray mesh matt black it kinda disappears - I mounted some over outside of grille, some take bumper off to do it ( i was just too lazy / and am not 'car proud' and prefer function over form any day ).
Other than stone protection one other big benefit of retro-fit mesh is that it keeps leaves and other crud out of condenser fins.
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Culzean doesn't the MK1 have a timing chain and not a cambelt, seems only the Jazz from 2009 onwards has a cambelt?
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My i-DSi has done 128,000 miles and the tappets have never been touched. Cam CHAIN needs no maintenance,
One other problem with all Jazz models is the drop links from anti-roll bar. Cheap fix if they start to rattle.
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Is it worth looking at the CVT auto?
Seems like it's marmite all the way in terms of how they drive, some love them some hate them.
I'd love to get one but I'm concerned about reliability and long term cost, seems they can be very expensive to repair if they go pear shaped.
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Culzean doesn't the MK1 have a timing chain and not a cambelt, seems only the Jazz from 2009 onwards has a cambelt?
Yes all Jazz engines do have camchains, including MK1 DSI .....
The 'cambelt' I mentioned was in my early Civic ( it was the only reason any work was done on engine in over 190,000 miles). The 'cam layout' I mentioned for Jazz DSI ( L13A ) was a change from usual Honda engineering ( inlet and exhaust rocker arms had one common pivot shaft to make cylinder head narrower ) and is described in this article http://asia.vtec.net/Engines/lseries/index.html
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Is it worth looking at the CVT auto?
Seems like it's marmite all the way in terms of how they drive, some love them some hate them.
I'd love to get one but I'm concerned about reliability and long term cost, seems they can be very expensive to repair if they go pear shaped.
After having driven "standard" automatics for 25 years, I tried the CVT and hated the driving experience. Earlier CVT models had a starting clutch, but later Jazz models did away with this. A CVT that has been maintained to the updated Honda service intervals should be fine. Still, there are many cases, documented here, of shuddering caused by inadequate or non-existent oil changes.
As for going "pear-shaped". The only non-accident demise of a Jazz recorded on here in my experience was a CVT failure, albeit at 256,000 miles.
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After having driven "standard" automatics for 25 years, I tried the CVT and hated the driving experience. Earlier CVT models had a starting clutch, but later Jazz models did away with this. A CVT that has been maintained to the updated Honda service intervals should be fine. Still, there are many cases, documented here, of shuddering caused by inadequate or non-existent oil changes.
As for going "pear-shaped". The only non-accident demise of a Jazz recorded on here in my experience was a CVT failure, albeit at 256,000 miles.
If I'm reading that correctly when the CVT gearbox starts to fail it may judder but will still work and the vehicle will be drivable?
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What I have read, multiple flushes and oil changes return it to a reasonable state. I certainly wouldn't want to drive a car where the transmission judders.
As an aside, the noisy manual gearbox will run forever. It just gets noisier and, in my case, got so embarrassing I had it repaired. A transmission specialist charged me £324 to do the job. I drove the car in one day and picked it up the next.
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If I'm reading that correctly when the CVT gearbox starts to fail it may judder but will still work and the vehicle will be drivable?
I can't remember anyone having a total failure, certainly without some warning.
It was resident driving instructor Ozzie that had the CVT failure, but it sounded more like a differential/driveshaft issue than actual gearbox...
One of the forumites did 256,000 miles with his driving school car before the CVT gearbox failed. And it wasn't the belts that went!
It was my 2011 Jazz that went to 256,000 miles when it had a driveshaft and gearbox problem, dumping the CVT fluid, and it still got me to the main dealers with no fluid in the gearbox. The engine itself was still fine.
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So there's a nice 1.5 Vtec available is the better low down grunt and fuel economy of the 1.4 DSI worth hanging on for?
How reliable is the 1.5 Vtec vs the 1.4DSI and how do the maintenance costs compare?
And apart from the slightly daft looking body kit and the engine is there anything else different on the 1.5vtec models?
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The 1.5 V-TEC was never available here in the UK until the latest Mk3's which I would imagine is a completely different setup engine from the 1.5 you are looking at.
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The 1.5 V-TEC was never available here in the UK until the latest Mk3's which I would imagine is a completely different setup engine from the 1.5 you are looking at.
I just looked at the torque curve of the GD DSI vs 1.5 Vtec and the Vtec also has lots of low down torque just more of it than the DSI so I'm assuming baring marginally worse fuel economy it'll be the better engine to have:
Vtec:
https://www.automobile-catalog.com/curve/2007/1137455/honda_fit_sport.html
DSI
https://www.automobile-catalog.com/curve/2006/1137815/honda_jazz_1_4_i-dsi_sport.html
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One interesting point is the DSI is at 87% of peak torque at 2000rpm 103Nm vs the Vtec at 79% of peak torque and 113Nm.
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So there's a nice 1.5 Vtec available is the better low down grunt and fuel economy of the 1.4 DSI worth hanging on for?
How reliable is the 1.5 Vtec vs the 1.4DSI and how do the maintenance costs compare?
And apart from the slightly daft looking body kit and the engine is there anything else different on the 1.5vtec models?
What I have read from user experiences in US, where the 1,5 VTEC was also sold, it is as reliables a Honda engine is supposed to be. Nothing to be worried about.
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Does anyone know if the Mk1 ever got a facelift during it's run?
Some websites imply that a facelifted model was released in around 2005 but I can't actually find concrete evidence of this anywhere
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My 2006 has updates on the earlier Mk1's but as it is the only Jazz I have ever owned I am not sure as to what the changes were. Richard may be able to help.
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You can see it on the bumper 2003:
(https://www.freeautomechanic.com/mechanic/forum/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/2003-honda-jazz.jpg)
2006:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8f/2006_Honda_Jazz_1.5_i-DSI_hatchback_%28GD3%3B_01-19-2019%29%2C_South_Tangerang.jpg)
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Finally found this.
https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=1156.0;wap2 (https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=1156.0;wap2)
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Does anyone know if the Mk1 ever got a facelift during it's run?
Some websites imply that a facelifted model was released in around 2005 but I can't actually find concrete evidence of this anywhere
2004. Main things are revised bumpers, headlights, mirrors. Also revisions to front suspension, different ARB drop links, possibly some other minor changes.
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I think they also changed to bigger brake discs on the front and the rear went from drums to discs.
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Chaps tell me up straight about the CVT auto in the GD in terms of maintenance and reliability?
Some guys say they are bulletproof, just a fluid change every so often and you are good to go. Others say they will eventually need attention and especially after 15 odd years and it's a nightmare in terms of cost to repair.
It would be nice to only have 2 pedals to push :P
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I think they also changed to bigger brake discs on the front and the rear went from drums to discs.
This might be different in South-African models though.
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It would be nice to only have 2 pedals to push :P
After 25 years of driving manual transmission cars, I went over to the dark side and had 25 years of owning and driving automatics. I loved them (conventional automatics with 3, 4 and 5 ratios and torque converters, not CVT). I swore I would never drive anything else. But I did. I bought the Jazz manual, and as far as transmission goes, it is the worst mistake I ever made. All this clutch up, clutch down, clutch up, clutch down in traffic is a nightmare for someone used to an automatic.
I then decided to try the Jazz automatic with a view to changing my car. I tried the CVT and hated it. It was too noisy and fussy for me. What I am getting at is try one before you start considering the reliability and such. You may like it as many owners do, or you may hate it as I and many others do.
I don't know when the change was made, but earlier auto Jazzes had a started clutch, which like the clutch on a manual, can need replacing. The later models went over to a torque converter.
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It would be nice to only have 2 pedals to push :P
After 25 years of driving manual transmission cars, I went over to the dark side and had 25 years of owning and driving automatics. I loved them (conventional automatics with 3, 4 and 5 ratios and torque converters, not CVT). I swore I would never drive anything else. But I did. I bought the Jazz manual, and as far as transmission goes, it is the worst mistake I ever made. All this clutch up, clutch down, clutch up, clutch down in traffic is a nightmare for someone used to an automatic.
I then decided to try the Jazz automatic with a view to changing my car. I tried the CVT and hated it. It was too noisy and fussy for me. What I am getting at is try one before you start considering the reliability and such. You may like it as many owners do, or you may hate it as I and many others do.
I don't know when the change was made, but earlier auto Jazzes had a started clutch, which like the clutch on a manual, can need replacing. The later models went over to a torque converter.
Thanks Jocko, those are some good points, I think the GD Jazz cvt had the starter clutch, here's a thread discussing it:
https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=6661.0
I drove a GD auto the other day, the vehicle had seen a hard life but the experience was enough to see that I'd be happy with one, which is why I'm now mulling on the ownership costs.
One thing I did notice, as with most small engined autos, is over taking at highway speeds may be a bit dody, you can't just gun it hard like you can with the manual, you have to floor it and pray :D
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I don't think anyone has mentioned this yet but make sure you check the spare wheel well for water inside... Mine had a lake in it which smelled pretty bad! I found it a week or so after purchase. The roof drain channels are sealed with seam sealer that can crack & allow water in. I resealed mine & no more problem.
Battery can drain over time if you only do short journeys. The charging system monitors load but not battery state & fails to keep the battery charged properly.
Solution is keep headlights on all the time or do regular longer trips.
The suspension is pretty crashy on rough surfaces.
Also, I love the CVT... It's really relaxing to drive if, like me, you want to cruise. Mine has the manual mode option too but I never use it.
I have the start clutch judder, I fixed it once with a fluid flush but after i had to replace the engine due to a blown head gasket & it came back. I've yet to flush it again, I just accelerate gently & it's not a problem.
By the way, I'm probably the only jazz owner that's had a head gasket blow. No-one would believe me until I got it sniff tested. They all said they'd never heard of it on a Jazz.
I think the previous owner had let the coolant run dry & hadn't noticed the overheat light. They'd put some stop leak in & sold it to me.
I found a leak on the water pump which probably caused it.
Great, reliable cars normally.
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Thanks Seasidesoulish, I've driven a few CVT's now and I can see why people may not like them at high revs because they are quite noisy but as you mentioned just cruising they are great. From the people I have spoken to they seem to be very reliable as long as you change the oil regularly and don't drive them overly hard.
Apparently this stuff works great for the CVT shudder and very easy to put in through the dipstick:
https://www.amazon.com/XADO-Automatic-Tiptronic-Transmissions-Revitalizant/dp/B00KGB3DH0/ref=sr_1_2?
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Thanks Seasidesoulish, I've driven a few CVT's now and I can see why people may not like them at high revs because they are quite noisy but as you mentioned just cruising they are great. From the people I have spoken to they seem to be very reliable as long as you change the oil regularly and don't drive them overly hard.
Apparently this stuff works great for the CVT shudder and very easy to put in through the dipstick:
https://www.amazon.com/XADO-Automatic-Tiptronic-Transmissions-Revitalizant/dp/B00KGB3DH0/ref=sr_1_2?
Very true.
I've tried the additive. It worked for a while but I thought I'd try the flush next as a more permanent solution which worked well until the engine replacement. I suppose that dislodged some material that attached itself to the start clutch. I've got new fluid, just not had time to do the job. Driving gently works for now 😊
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The model your after is 15 years old when buying any vehicle of this age its all about condition.
If you like the way it drives then get it