Author Topic: Electric cars  (Read 694165 times)

Jocko

  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9356
  • Country: scotland
  • Fuel economy:
  • My Honda: Died from rust.
Re: Electric cars
« Reply #420 on: November 06, 2017, 10:37:56 AM »
or a failure of autopilot software.
It looked like a cause of auto pilot failure to me. Or to be more precise - a driver sitting behind the wheel who failed to notice the warning signs followed by concrete barriers in the road.
Just a practical demonstration of Darwin's theory

culzean

  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 8017
  • Country: england
Re: Electric cars
« Reply #421 on: November 06, 2017, 01:03:22 PM »
or a failure of autopilot software.
It looked like a cause of auto pilot failure to me. Or to be more precise - a driver sitting behind the wheel who failed to notice the warning signs followed by concrete barriers in the road.
Just a practical demonstration of Darwin's theory

Don't tell me that tesla useless cameras that are supposed to brake the car didn't notice the barrier either - who would have thought it.  Wonder what their excuse will be this time as no white clouds behind a white lorry to blame.

I bet that when pilot plays a movie the autopilot watches it as well.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2017, 01:36:21 PM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

Jocko

  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9356
  • Country: scotland
  • Fuel economy:
  • My Honda: Died from rust.
Re: Electric cars
« Reply #422 on: November 06, 2017, 03:01:40 PM »
The main thing is, without trying to defend Tesla, their Autopilot is sold as a driver "assist". It is not there to replace the driver. It is not able to replace the driver (as you are so keen to point out). If a driver wishes to risk their life by depending on a system that is still being developed then that is their lookout (and any other poor soul that gets on their way). I haven't seen the Tesla users manual (I am sure thought that it will be a lengthy tome), but I am positive it will state, in no uncertain terms, that the Autopilot cannot and should not be the sole method of controlling the car.
Every other developer of EVs seems to use LIDAR. Tesla does not. I am sure, in the future, they will regret that engineering choice.

culzean

  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 8017
  • Country: england
Re: Electric cars
« Reply #423 on: November 06, 2017, 03:17:20 PM »
The main thing is, without trying to defend Tesla, their Autopilot is sold as a driver "assist". It is not there to replace the driver. It is not able to replace the driver (as you are so keen to point out). If a driver wishes to risk their life by depending on a system that is still being developed then that is their lookout (and any other poor soul that gets on their way). I haven't seen the Tesla users manual (I am sure thought that it will be a lengthy tome), but I am positive it will state, in no uncertain terms, that the Autopilot cannot and should not be the sole method of controlling the car.
Every other developer of EVs seems to use LIDAR. Tesla does not. I am sure, in the future, they will regret that engineering choice.

All this just makes plain to me that all the autonomous vehicle roadmap levels 1 to 4 are a waste of time and only level 5 (a fully autonomous vehicle) is workable, any attempt to 'assist' the driver are  waste of time, as you end up with neither the car or driver in charge, you get a distracted driver and a potential accident.  Statistics coming from USA (which I posted earlier in thread) point to the fact that accidents have increased by 15% since 2014 when 'driver aids' were introduced in vehicles because drivers think that whatever they do the car will save them.  I actually think that airbags, seatbelts, crumple zones, and other safety features   actually mean drivers take more risks, so fooling them into thinking a semi autonomous car will save their sorry @ss from their stupidity and lack of attention is asking for trouble.

https://www.vox.com/new-money/2017/7/5/15840860/tesla-waymo-audi-self-driving
« Last Edit: November 06, 2017, 04:07:09 PM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

Jocko

  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9356
  • Country: scotland
  • Fuel economy:
  • My Honda: Died from rust.
Re: Electric cars
« Reply #424 on: November 06, 2017, 03:50:53 PM »
I agree almost entirely. I remember when seat belts were first introduced they gave a feeling on invincibility.
The only thing I disagree with is the "waste of time" levels. Both 4 and 5 are fully autonomous. Level 4 means the vehicle is autonomous in a defined area (be that a city, a state or a country). Level 5 means the vehicle can go anywhere in the world. I consider myself Level 4, because I am comfortable in the UK, as long as I am not in a city I don't know! I hate driving in busy cities and wouldn't dream of driving in London. When I was younger I was Level 5, driving anywhere in the world I was sent.
So an autonomous taxi may be programmed for Greater London and no more. That is an example of Level 4.

ColinS

  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 899
  • Country: england
  • My Honda: 2018 HR-V EX-Navi CVT
Re: Electric cars
« Reply #425 on: November 06, 2017, 04:12:04 PM »
I think modern motoring has given us a cocooned sense of security within warm and soundproofed cabins and in my opinion, autonomy levels 1 to 3 add to this feeling of reliance on the vehicle.

A prime example of the motorist not taking the responsibility is the use of headlights in the fog.  Some of us forget there is a manual on/off switch (well maybe not off but that’s a different subject).

culzean

  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 8017
  • Country: england
Re: Electric cars
« Reply #426 on: November 06, 2017, 05:21:56 PM »
I think modern motoring has given us a cocooned sense of security within warm and soundproofed cabins and in my opinion, autonomy levels 1 to 3 add to this feeling of reliance on the vehicle.

A prime example of the motorist not taking the responsibility is the use of headlights in the fog.  Some of us forget there is a manual on/off switch (well maybe not off but that’s a different subject).

A good many drivers need to be reminded that being allowed to drive over a tonne of metal at high speed on a road network shared with millions of others is a big responsibility, requires all your attention all the time and is not to be taken lightly and that it is a privilege not a g#d given right.

Motorbike riders call cars 'fug boxes' - an apt description of the enclosed, overheated atmosphere inside.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2017, 07:35:12 PM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

madasafish

  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1953
  • Country: gb
  • My Honda: 1.4 ES CVT -2012
Re: Electric cars
« Reply #427 on: November 06, 2017, 09:28:24 PM »
The main thing is, without trying to defend Tesla, their Autopilot is sold as a driver "assist". It is not there to replace the driver. It is not able to replace the driver (as you are so keen to point out). If a driver wishes to risk their life by depending on a system that is still being developed then that is their lookout (and any other poor soul that gets on their way). I haven't seen the Tesla users manual (I am sure thought that it will be a lengthy tome), but I am positive it will state, in no uncertain terms, that the Autopilot cannot and should not be the sole method of controlling the car.
Every other developer of EVs seems to use LIDAR. Tesla does not. I am sure, in the future, they will regret that engineering choice.

All this just makes plain to me that all the autonomous vehicle roadmap levels 1 to 4 are a waste of time and only level 5 (a fully autonomous vehicle) is workable, any attempt to 'assist' the driver are  waste of time, as you end up with neither the car or driver in charge, you get a distracted driver and a potential accident.  Statistics coming from USA (which I posted earlier in thread) point to the fact that accidents have increased by 15% since 2014 when 'driver aids' were introduced in vehicles because drivers think that whatever they do the car will save them.  I actually think that airbags, seatbelts, crumple zones, and other safety features   actually mean drivers take more risks, so fooling them into thinking a semi autonomous car will save their sorry @ss from their stupidity and lack of attention is asking for trouble.

https://www.vox.com/new-money/2017/7/5/15840860/tesla-waymo-audi-self-driving

Thanks for the above link . I read it with interest...so full automation with no driver input is the way to go it seems?

I drive along single track unlisted roads every week form March to September to travel to our Association Apiary to help to train novice beekeepers. There are passing spaces every 100 meters to every 500 meters depending on the road. I find it difficult to believe that the road will be passable for fully autonomous cars as the judgement required to pull off the road involves an assessment of the surface conditions (mud,ruts,banks) and the hazards - many very steep but hidden ditches, horses,tractors coming out of hidden field entrances etc (you hear them before you see them) etc.
This could mean some roads in such a car might become inaccessible..

Jocko

  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9356
  • Country: scotland
  • Fuel economy:
  • My Honda: Died from rust.
Re: Electric cars
« Reply #428 on: November 07, 2017, 06:56:19 AM »
Personally I think there will be many years of Level 4 before level 5 is sufficiently developed. Initially, I believe, Level 4 will be confined to cities. The major cities will have fleets of autonomous cabs, and as technology improves the autonomous vehicle will be rolled out wider and wider.
Having said that, a self driving vehicle, on a road like you quoted, will probably be a lot safer than most drivers. It won't push on just because it is a 4x4 and will intimidate smaller vehicles, it will more easily be able to compute the speed of oncoming vehicles, using its sophisticated LIDAR (judging speed of approaching vehicles is the most difficult task for humans, especially as they get older, and is one of the reasons many older motorists end up in accidents), and the wheel and inertia sensors on autonomous vehicles make excellent choices regarding road surface and grip.

peteo48

  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2689
  • Country: gb
  • I have entered the Jazz Age
  • Fuel economy:
  • My Honda: 2021 Honda Jazz Mk4 1.5 i-MMD EX
Re: Electric cars
« Reply #429 on: November 07, 2017, 09:35:31 AM »
I think Culzean sums up for me part of the problem with increasing but not yet full autonomy. As the car takes over some functions but still relies on the driver for overall control, complacency is going to set in - indeed IS setting in. The distractions of these wretched infotainment systems are another factor.

I wonder if we will see an increase in RTAs over the next few years as we enter this semi autonomous era.

Jocko

  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9356
  • Country: scotland
  • Fuel economy:
  • My Honda: Died from rust.
Re: Electric cars
« Reply #430 on: November 07, 2017, 09:49:10 AM »
accidents have increased by 15% since 2014 when 'driver aids' were introduced in vehicles
As culzean says, this has already happened.

culzean

  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 8017
  • Country: england
Re: Electric cars
« Reply #431 on: November 07, 2017, 10:14:47 AM »
accidents have increased by 15% since 2014 when 'driver aids' were introduced in vehicles
As culzean says, this has already happened.

It is happening with aviation as well with computers taking over the mundane tasks in aircraft.  A case in the link I posted where an Air France passenger plane en-route South America to France had all its speed sensors ice up, the autopilot turned itself off and the crew had no idea what was wrong and did all the wrong things,  by the time the crew thought to wake the (older) senior pilot who did realise what had happened it was too late and plane 'belly flopped' into the Atlantic.  Another recent episode where a fuel leak on one airbus engine was draining fuel from one tank the crew suspected computer problems and manually took over,  in the end the plane ran out of fuel mid-Atlantic and they had to glide the aircraft 75miles to land on a military airfield in the Azores.

Aviation and vehicles have the same problem, too much reliance on computers is breeding complacency and sapping the skills of aircrew and when the computers fail or do the wrong thing humans have to take over and it is a very steep learning curve.  The fact is that the heroes of most aviation incidents are older pilots who have more idea what to do when the computers screw up or things generally go t!ts up.  Hopefully if an autonomous car screws up it will just pull over and put the hazards on and auto-dial the AA to come and rescue it.

I was recently given a flying lesson as a birthday gift, the pilot who I was with was mid-thirties and a fully qualified 'heavy' pilot (up to 4 engine aircraft), he gave it up to do 'proper' flying as an instructor on light aircraft at local flying because he said airliner pilots these days are no more than glorified bus drivers / computer minders and it is boring as h3ll.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

culzean

  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 8017
  • Country: england
Re: Electric cars
« Reply #432 on: November 07, 2017, 10:27:01 AM »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

guest5079

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
Re: Electric cars
« Reply #433 on: November 07, 2017, 03:00:16 PM »
Again a deviation: One thing Trumpton used to impress upon us was the extreme dangers of a burning car and this was before EV's. Most of the rubber used in modern cars when ignited gives off highly toxic fumes and so Trumpton ALWAYS wore breathing apparatus when dealing with a car fire.
I was mindful when attending  a car fire of the immediate danger, after being hot on the tail of those little darlings that nobody understands, when they set light to the car as they vacated it. Of course we had to stay with the car because of the hazard to others. It was the first and only time I had been close to a burning car when it was just set alight. Well remembering that which we had been told I stood back when the tank went. Not funny but unlike american films the whole car did not disintegrate but bits of metal sure did fly.
I should think Hydrogen is a much different kettle of fish. Many years ago at BOC welding school, they were very touchy on safety. Acetylene not used much now but if the fire got inside, the cylinder would unwind, acetylene cylinder were made like toilet roll inners.. If Oxygen got inside NOTHING just everything in the immediate vicinity vapourised. What does H and O do togather?

Jocko

  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9356
  • Country: scotland
  • Fuel economy:
  • My Honda: Died from rust.
Re: Electric cars
« Reply #434 on: November 07, 2017, 05:31:59 PM »
A hydrogen fire, in the open, though fierce, tends to be over quickly with not a lot of damage. Because the hydrogen in lighter than air it goes up into the air pretty quick and people on the ground have a chance of escaping (think Hindenburg - of the 97 on board 62 survived). A petrol fire of a similar magnitude is far more dangerous.

Tags:
 

Back to top