Clubjazz - Honda Jazz & HR-V Forums

Honda Jazz, HR-V & Hybrid Forums => Honda Jazz Mk3 2015 - => Topic started by: Kenneve on October 11, 2017, 10:46:18 AM

Title: Jazz security.
Post by: Kenneve on October 11, 2017, 10:46:18 AM
There was an interesting program on BBC1 this morning which related to scams and theft etc.
There was an item on car security, particularly concerning cars with keyless entry and how easy it was in some circumstances to gain unauthorised entry and start the car.
This prompted me into checking my Jazz EX model.
It seems that the the remote key has to be on my person to be able to open the door, leaving the key on the ground a matter of 1 metre away, prevented entry.
I then tried to start the car, again without the remote key being on me and the car was completely dead, with a message on the info screen asking me to put the remote near to the keyhole.
So it would appear the we are reasonably secure.
The moral of this is, never leave the house without your keys, since (1)You can't get back in the house and (2)You can't get in your car either!!! Oh yes I forgot, and it's raining!!
Title: Re: Jazz security.
Post by: trebor1652 on October 11, 2017, 10:52:42 AM
What I find strange is you can get out of the car with your key in your pocket, the car will beep at you but the engine stays running. Does this mean in this scenario that someone could drive away without the key?

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Title: Re: Jazz security.
Post by: culzean on October 11, 2017, 11:48:53 AM
What I find strange is you can get out of the car with your key in your pocket, the car will beep at you but the engine stays running. Does this mean in this scenario that someone could drive away without the key?

A driver could easily be breaking the law if car is on a public road and driver is not in the car and the engine is running (not in control of vehicle) - also many get fines under anti pollution laws if parked even on your own driveway with engine running, especially when driver is not in the car (leaving car unattended to warm up while your are in the house having a brew).  I am surprised that some high-end cars have facility to remotely start the engine - surely that is illegal as well.

https://www.carkeys.co.uk/news/10-motoring-laws-you-have-no-idea-youre-breaking
Title: Re: Jazz security.
Post by: TG on October 11, 2017, 12:33:17 PM
What I find strange is you can get out of the car with your key in your pocket, the car will beep at you but the engine stays running. Does this mean in this scenario that someone could drive away without the key?
My assumption is that the car will get more urgent as it gets lonely without the key until at some point a timer expires and the engine switches off, this might even be a few minutes.  It should be long enough to open a garage door at least.  I know that you can still park a Mini when someone walks into the supermarket with the keys in their handbag.
--
TG
Title: Re: Jazz security.
Post by: d2d4j on October 11, 2017, 12:51:57 PM
Hi

I could be wrong sorry, as I did not watch bbc this morning but have watched a program over keyless car theft.

I think they used a signal amplifier to amplify the keyfob so it appears as though it is extremely close to the car, even though it is not. Hence car opens, engine starts and thieves drives off without the owner aware. The program showed this method took less then 40 seconds

Many thanks

John
Title: Re: Jazz security.
Post by: trebor1652 on October 11, 2017, 01:01:50 PM
It's one of the reasons why I don't use the fob. Unlock by putting hand inside door handle and lock by pressing "button" on door handle.

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Title: Re: Jazz security.
Post by: Deeps on October 11, 2017, 02:22:30 PM
Don't worry too much, it's a Jazz,  not a 300+ bhp German autobahn stormer. The scrotes would not risk damaging their street cred by even contemplating being seen in a Jazz by their mates. :-)
Title: Re: Jazz security.
Post by: andruec on October 11, 2017, 02:36:13 PM
You can also start the car if your key is in your golf bag in the boot. Something I've done a few times and caused myself a moment of panic when I get to my front door after a round and discover I don't have my keys on me  :o :)
Title: Re: Jazz security.
Post by: Jocko on October 11, 2017, 02:56:29 PM
According to the advert for Mercedes Me, the car will even drive out from between two close parked vehicles with the driver standing outside!
Title: Re: Jazz security.
Post by: JohnAlways on October 12, 2017, 09:07:49 AM
I saw the same programme. It was a 40,000 mercedes and as d2d4j says they did use a signal amplifier (caught on security camera). The signal was picked up from the key inside the house, amplified by the signal amplifier so the car thought it was close by, the car unlocked and the engine was able to be started. I suppose these cars don't have steering locks as they wouldn't be keyless (as in no keyed entry etc) as per the Jazz. They also mentioned being able to clone a key's chip by attaching to the OBD port with a device and laptop. Again unless they have a master key the steering lock would need "modifying". The programme recommended a good old fashion visible steering lock through the steering wheel. I still have a "Krook lock" but admit to not using it unless I'm parking somewhere really dodgy (but I suppose thieves can strike anywhere). 
Title: Re: Jazz security.
Post by: culzean on October 12, 2017, 09:41:18 AM
They also mentioned being able to clone a key's chip by attaching to the OBD port with a device and laptop.

Next door neighbour has a Ford ST,  the first thing he was advised to do was move the OBD port and hide it away,  99% of them get nicked via OBD port and laptop.  It has been broken into twice while in street or carpark but because no access to OBD could not be driven away,  he is still worried about leaving it parked anywhere and when at home it always gets put in garage.

Wireless security is a bit of an oxymoron,  if something uses radio waves or is connected to internet it is anything but secure (one of the reasons we outwitted the Germans in WW1 and 2 was that we had a properly secure cable network to USA and far flung corners of the empire,  Nazis had to use wireless and we could listen in and crack their codes).

My first Civic had an Infra-Red remote,  receiver was by drivers rearview mirror in the interior light cluster,  you could point it through windscreen or side windows to unlock, not as long a range or 'convenient' as RF remote,  but much more secure

After a scare a few years ago where I had a message come up on computer about 'you computer has been encrypted etc.' I read up about internet security (I had a recent image of HD backed up on Acronis,  so just restored complete hard drive so no drama) .  Rule number one is never use an account with admin rights to access internet - this is a mistake a lot of people make apparently and leaves your whole computer vulnerable.  Also use a very strong password for admin.  I never worry about writing passwords down and keeping them at home in a safe place (I keep mine on a USB stick in a password protected file, so only need to remember one password, and only need to plug it in occasionally when i forget an obscure password, after which it is unplugged from computer so cannot be seen online) may be different if you need to keep them from teenagers at home). The main threat is online not from a member of your family,  and if some scrote breaks into your house,  having them find your passwords  may be the least of your worries.
Title: Re: Jazz security.
Post by: culzean on November 10, 2017, 02:37:18 PM
here is a newsletter from our local Honda dealership.

http://www.jthughes.co.uk/Blog/View/Shropshire-Vehicle-Theft-Increases-as-Criminals-get-Hi-Tech-Share-this/11731?utm_campaign=8859966_Jt%20Hughes%20newsletter%20Nov%202017&utm_medium=email&utm_source=JT%20Hughes%20Marketing

The police recommendations are lower down the page,  seems physical devices like crooklocks are selling again.  Police recommend that with keyless systems the device is kept in an RFID pouch (or a metal tin or wrapped in aluminium foil when in the house).  Some thieves get car started via OBD port, as our neighbour found out with his Ford ST.
Title: Re: Jazz security.
Post by: auntyneddy on November 10, 2017, 02:45:41 PM
Would one of the credit card holders do? They are aluminium and allegedly stop card readers being used by passers by. Quite cheap and fit nicely into the pocket Of course if you don't have many credit cards one might be able to use the same holder. OR would there be a problem?
Title: Re: Jazz security.
Post by: culzean on November 10, 2017, 04:38:14 PM
Would one of the credit card holders do? They are aluminium and allegedly stop card readers being used by passers by. Quite cheap and fit nicely into the pocket Of course if you don't have many credit cards one might be able to use the same holder. OR would there be a problem?

Any 'Faraday cage' will do to stop signal, does not even have to be solid metal. Look at the 'see through' door on your microwave oven.
Title: Re: Jazz security.
Post by: Kenneve on November 10, 2017, 04:45:55 PM
I don't quite understand the RFID theory, surely  when the keyfob is in the house, it is not transmitting any signal unless the fob button is pressed? If it is transmitting 24/7 then the battery would not last long, so how is the signal generated, for an amplifier to pick up?
Title: Re: Jazz security.
Post by: culzean on November 10, 2017, 05:16:30 PM
The RFID tag is a dumb chip that gets interrogated by the vehicle and replies with a code, I guess the bad guys replicate the vehicle signal and pick up the resulting reply and amplify it to send to vehicle receiver.  The chip in the contactless debit cards is same principle but shorter range, which is how the card can be scanned in your pocket or wallet by previously mentioned bad guys.  Nothing wireless can ever be secure.

The chips don't really need a power supply they get power they need from signal that interrogates them, which is why if battery in fob goes they still allow car to be started.

OBD port locks are available, the crooks can download info they need to program new chip via the port.
Title: Re: Jazz security.
Post by: Deeps on November 10, 2017, 06:24:22 PM
I don't quite understand the RFID theory, surely  when the keyfob is in the house, it is not transmitting any signal unless the fob button is pressed? If it is transmitting 24/7 then the battery would not last long, so how is the signal generated, for an amplifier to pick up?

I think you have spotted the bullshine.
Title: Re: Jazz security.
Post by: Jocko on November 10, 2017, 06:58:54 PM
I don't quite understand the RFID theory, surely  when the keyfob is in the house, it is not transmitting any signal unless the fob button is pressed? If it is transmitting 24/7 then the battery would not last long, so how is the signal generated, for an amplifier to pick up?
It is not the keyfob that is the issue. It is the credit card keyless entry that some cars have. The car sends the signal to the card and the card replies. It doesn't have a battery. Same principle as my key has for the immobiliser (no remote locking on my car).
Title: Re: Jazz security.
Post by: andruec on November 10, 2017, 07:14:33 PM
I don't quite understand the RFID theory, surely  when the keyfob is in the house, it is not transmitting any signal unless the fob button is pressed? If it is transmitting 24/7 then the battery would not last long, so how is the signal generated, for an amplifier to pick up?
The truly keyless entry system on the EX and higher does not require any button to be pressed. The fob just has to be within range of the vehicle when someone puts their hand through the door handle. I assume that the car is transmitting 24/7 and the keyfob is listening 24/7 and responds when it detects the car.

So a clever criminal could use an amplifier to boost the car's signal and then another to boost the keyfob's response. This would increase the range and potentially allow them to unlock the car and start the engine while your keyfob is still in the house.
Title: Re: Jazz security.
Post by: Deeps on November 10, 2017, 07:31:07 PM
For a 50K car in demand in far flung areas maybe, for a Jazz, delusions of grandeur, it's a Japanese Fiesta. If it is so easy why do the bad guys housebreak for the keys of expensive cars?
Title: Re: Jazz security.
Post by: Jocko on November 10, 2017, 07:43:58 PM
But if you are a car thief, prowling the streets looking for suitable BMWs, and your electronics trigger the entry system on a Jazz, you will probably take it.
Title: Re: Jazz security.
Post by: Deeps on November 10, 2017, 08:08:36 PM
But if you are a car thief, prowling the streets looking for suitable BMWs, and your electronics trigger the entry system on a Jazz, you will probably take it.

And into a shipping container and off to Africa within hours, a jazz is not worth the shipping cost or the risk. I didn't know there was rapid shipment from our area now the Zeebrugge ferry has stopped.
Title: Re: Jazz security.
Post by: Jocko on November 10, 2017, 08:33:17 PM
The biggest market for car thieves is stripping them and selling parts for spares. A Jazz will make a pretty penny sold for parts and eBay and Gumtree have made this even easier.
Title: Re: Jazz security.
Post by: andruec on November 11, 2017, 08:37:20 AM
The biggest market for car thieves is stripping them and selling parts for spares. A Jazz will make a pretty penny sold for parts and eBay and Gumtree have made this even easier.
This is probably a good point. Although Honda make reliable cars if you do need spares they are expensive. I also think that whilst a Jazz is not a high value luxury vehicle a new model could be worth up to 14k sold privately. I think it's unlikely that anyone sets out to steal one to order but as Jocko said if a thief happens gain access it's a pretty neat haul for a night's work. The equipment to do this can be probably be bought online for a hundred quid or so - we're not talking about Raffles here. Just an above average oik from the bad side of town.

Personally I don't worry is because mine is kept in a locked garage overnight.
Title: Re: Jazz security.
Post by: Jocko on November 11, 2017, 09:52:01 AM
Personally I don't worry is because mine is kept in a locked garage overnight.
Me too.
Title: Re: Jazz security.
Post by: Deeps on November 11, 2017, 01:04:01 PM
So when the low life have beaten you up for your keys they will be back to repeat the persuasion to open the garage. Mine is in the garage as well, my diversion tactics are the 5.something litre V8 Mercedes and BMW X5 3.0 diesel the neighbours each side keep on their drives. :-)
Title: Re: Jazz security.
Post by: Jocko on November 11, 2017, 03:32:20 PM
I feel quite secure because my garage is miles away from my flat, my car is worth Jack Sh*T, and if the wide boys wanted some cash they would be better ripping off a bottle of Buckie or Mad Dog from the shop across the road!
In fact, now my gearbox is knackered, the insurance pay out would probably be worth more to me than the car, and with my no claims protection would see me well fettled (if my car goes missing in the next few weeks remind me to delete this post).
Title: Re: Jazz security.
Post by: trebor1652 on November 11, 2017, 03:37:35 PM
I was wondering if anyone used any additional security.
Stop lock, disk lock or any other?

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Title: Re: Jazz security.
Post by: Jocko on November 11, 2017, 03:43:35 PM
I used to always use a Krooklock, then I saw a demonstration on how easy they were to remove and threw it away!
Title: Re: Jazz security.
Post by: Deeps on November 11, 2017, 08:30:47 PM
Speaking of cars in garages, I had a Focus 2.0 TDCI recalled to have the radiator fan rewired as it was always powered up and corrosion in the controller was liable to cause a fire even if the car was switched off. A bit disturbing as it had been kept in my garage overnight for three years and my garage is built into my house.
Title: Re: Jazz security.
Post by: Jocko on November 11, 2017, 09:54:45 PM
Not good.
Title: Re: Jazz security.
Post by: Kenneve on November 30, 2017, 04:55:59 PM
I'm sorry guys, but I still don't understand the theory behind the interrogation of the keyfob.

I trained in the RAF as an Air Wireless Fitter, working on equipment installed in the Avro Vulcan bomber, albeit some 60 odd years ago, when radios had glass tubes fitted, which 'glowed in the dark'.!!!

I understand that the car is probably 'on watch' 24/7 and I understand about the 'black box' amplifier, but I don't understand how the keyfob can listen 24/7 and respond without the power being applied. Can someone point me to any articles, which explain the theory?

Many thanks
Title: Re: Jazz security.
Post by: culzean on November 30, 2017, 05:15:04 PM
Look up / google RFID tags,  (radio frequency identification tags) they are widely used in industry attached to products , especially cars on production lines, they carry all the data about the car, colour, upholstery spec, wheels etc. And are interrogated at each production station. The passive chips carry no power supply, they are interrogated by receivers which supply power via the radio signal ( only work at a very short range)   

When used as keyless entry, the transmitter / receiver in the car is always on standby to interrogate a passing card / fob.

Chips can be passive, short range device powered by the radio signal,  or active powered by battery which gives them much longer range.  Think of RFID tag as a transponder which transmits information when activated by suitable wireless signal.

The keyless cars are notoriously easy to steal,  if the card / fob is anywhere near house wall or door it can be activated by one scanner, it then transmits code to another device near the car which unlocks car and allows it to be started - once started it can be driven away with no card present.

Security people reckon you should keep fob in a faraday cage (wrap in aluminium foil or keep in purpose made metallized pouch which are also useful for keeping your contactless credit and debit cards in) - even a metalised plastic crisp packet will do LOL . Nothing that uses wireless or is connected to internet can ever be secure.
Title: Re: Jazz security.
Post by: Jocko on November 30, 2017, 05:53:15 PM
From this week's news.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/27/mercedes-car-stolen-without-using-key-seconds-relay-theft/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/27/mercedes-car-stolen-without-using-key-seconds-relay-theft/)

Title: Re: Jazz security.
Post by: andruec on November 30, 2017, 07:41:44 PM
but I don't understand how the keyfob can listen 24/7 and respond without the power being applied.
The key fob has a battery in it. It is probably listening 24/7 but only transmits when the car 'asks' it to. With modern electronics I would guess that a short range receiver requires very little power. In fact it's possible that as Culzean says the receiver is just using passive RFID the same as contactless payment cards use. So the battery in the fob may only be used when transmitting a code.
Title: Re: Jazz security.
Post by: culzean on November 30, 2017, 08:40:15 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RFID_skimming

Theft of data from non-contact systems - skimming

https://www.securerf.com/cryptographic-security-for-keyless-car-entry-systems-not-gone-in-60-seconds/

Most vehicles use same code, just like 80% of farm tractors in UK (maybe the world ) used the same physical ignition key LOL

Many things that are done for 'convenience' turn out to be insecure.  Which is why data transmitted via cables is a lot more secure than wireless.

Title: Re: Jazz security.
Post by: martint123 on December 09, 2017, 09:18:33 PM
If you watch the fob on a keyless Jazz there is a tiny red LED.
If the car is locked and you go for the handle to unlock it the LED flashes on the fob.
Same if you're inside and press the start button (no clutch) just to turn the ignition on.

The fob listens 27/7 and replies to the car when interrogated.
Title: Re: Jazz security.
Post by: ColinS on December 09, 2017, 09:53:05 PM
The fob listens 27/7
Clever these Japanese!
Title: Re: Jazz security.
Post by: andruec on December 10, 2017, 08:01:19 AM
The fob listens 27/7 and replies to the car when interrogated.
Seems a bit wasteful of the battery. 24/7 ought to be enough I feel  :P
Title: Re: Jazz security.
Post by: ColinB on December 10, 2017, 12:40:25 PM
The fob listens 27/7 and replies to the car when interrogated.
Seems a bit wasteful of the battery. 24/7 ought to be enough I feel  :P
Not really, it's only one day a year ...  ;D