Clubjazz - Honda Jazz & HR-V Forums
Honda Jazz Forums => Honda Jazz Mk2 2008-2015 => Topic started by: guest7027 on July 27, 2017, 01:22:26 PM
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I don't often drive my car above 30-40 mph (local, short trips on 30/40 roads) however last night I was travelling further afield and was on a few national speed limit roads and found myself accelerating from say 35mph to 50mph whilst in 5th gear which was fine but if I put my foot flat out on the pedal (completely down) there was a strange noise which appeared to be coming from the left hand side of the engine bay (left side when sitting in the car).
I can only describe the noise as a suction noise with a slight tickle/rattle - if I stopped accerlating the noise would disappear. If I didn't put my foot fully down it would not make the noise. Only seems to make the noise if the pedla is flat out and your doing low speed in a high gear and building up to a higher speed.
Also tested this in 4th gear from 25mph - did the same as above, same noise in pedla flat out but if you only tickle the pedal or half engage then no noise to be had.
I have't yet had a chance to test this in my other Jazz to see if it is the same or 'normal' but just wondered if anyone else has noticed this?
Ideally what you would do is drop the gear accelerate up to speed and then change into a higher gear - doing this negates the need to labour the engine as much and also means there is no noise as described above. I often however follow the 'change gear indidcator arrow' and this often tells you to shift into 5th gear at like 30 mph on a flat road which I always find odd but following the is how I found the above noise as when the speed limit switched from 30 to national i didnt bother switching gears from 5th and just thought I will slowly build up speed in 5th anyway.
Hope this makes sense!
Thanks
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Check there is an element in the air filter.
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This was my first thought given the origin of the noise seems to be from where the air intake housing is located - I will check this later on, I should hope it has an air filter element inside though... It has full Honda service history with the last service only been done 5 months ago!
I forgot to add in my initial post too that the car has fully warmed up by this point too so can't put it down to the car being cold.
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I can only describe the noise as a suction noise with a slight tickle/rattle - if I stopped accelerating the noise would disappear. If I didn't put my foot fully down it would not make the noise. Only seems to make the noise if the pedla is flat out and your doing low speed in a high gear and building up to a higher speed.
The tinkle / rattle that you describe is classic 'pinking' or 'knocking' (pre-ignition) which happens at low revs in high gear, normally more noticeable on an uphill though - put some 97 RON or higher fuel in and try it again after a few miles to allow petrol to get into system.
Don't know what the 'roar, suction noise' is - you are more likely to get induction roar at high revs, not low.
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I had a Triumph 2.5 PI which had a lot of intake noise. I checked and found the previous owner had removed the air filter. So I removed the entire intake duct and ended up with six 2" throttle openings gulping in air. What a lovely sound. Louder than the exhaust. That car was a brute. When I sold it I told the guy that I had to be honest and had had 16 mpg with it. I didn't mention that that was the best I'd had. 8 mpg was nearer the mark. The injectors were shot. The exhaust pipe was blued back to the second box and when you revved hard sparks came out the exhaust. It went through a set of six plugs every day (I carried a box of them with me and sandblaster a set every day I was at work).
We used to drag race our cars at work, and I was second quickest behind a FIAT spots car. Used to burn off Capri GT's regularly.
(http://i.imgur.com/fnnop3e.jpg)
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If I didn't put my foot fully down it would not make the noise. Only seems to make the noise if the pedla is flat out and your doing low speed in a high gear and building up to a higher speed.
With modern electronics, it may not open the throttle as much as you demand from pedal position, these days the throttle pedal is meerly a request and can be moderated by the ECU. Remembering back to manually adjusted cars, you would get 'pinking' in the circumstances you describe.
It would seem the obvious remedy is to drive in the appropriate gear with a light throttle, as you suggest. I think my throttle pedal has only touched the carpet twice in the last decade (near suicidal crossing of a dual carriageway).
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TG
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I guess my next question would be 'is pinking normal when driving the car in the manner described or is there something not right?'
The noise is difficult to explain - it was a different engine tone as though it was struggling a bit but not enough to stutter and drop revs, it was though it was surging and trying to suck in more air or power and with this noise there was a slight rattle as thought some stones or pebbles where rattling but in no way would I describe it as a knocking noise.
My car has been back to the honda dealer 7 times in the last 3 months (not for this issue but other things) and I don't get much luck with them fixing things even though I have a 12 month warranty with the car.
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I regularly pull away from 25 mph, in 5th, with a light throttle. Never experienced any pinking. If I over do it the car tells me it doesn't like it and I change down. I use 4th gear and tick over for level 20 mph area. 1.2i-DSi is very flexible.
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If I use light throttle I don't get the noise at all, only if I put foot flat out which in fairness I rarely ever do this, just so happened to do it last night and noticed the noise and now I'm paranoid about the noise haha! It's a bit like when you have a mouth ulcer or broken tooth - you can't stop sticking your tongue in it once you know it's there!!!
I will have to test it in my other Jazz as it's identical to mine and if it does it in that one it's likely not to be an issue.
Car is running generally fine otherwise - I do get a clutch judder when pulling off when the car is cold, seem to have to apply more revs to eliminate this (2k+ or so) but when the car is warm the judder disappears and I can pull off at 1.5k revs as normal. Honda dealer couldn't find a problem when they inspected clutch, flywheel and gearbox but my other Jazz doesn't do it? Kind of lost faith in the dealer as they treat you as a nuisance in the hope that you will give up, disappear and stop 'nagging' them if they don't do anything for you.
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If I use light throttle I don't get the noise at all, only if I put foot flat out which in fairness I rarely ever do this, just so happened to do it last night and noticed the noise and now I'm paranoid about the noise haha! It's a bit like when you have a mouth ulcer or broken tooth - you can't stop sticking your tongue in it once you know it's there!!!
I do get a clutch judder when pulling off when the car is cold, seem to have to apply more revs to eliminate this (2k+ or so) but when the car is warm the judder disappears and I can pull off at 1.5k revs as normal. Honda dealer couldn't find a problem when they inspected clutch, flywheel and gearbox but my other Jazz doesn't do it? Kind of lost faith in the dealer as they treat you as a nuisance in the hope that you will give up, disappear and stop 'nagging' them if they don't do anything for you.
I have had clutch judder on several cars, one good way to cure it is to put handbrake on and deliberately slip the clutch - this will remove any glaze or contamination on friction surfaces.
Believe me, what you have is pinking / pinging / pre-ignition / knocking / detonation - call it what you will, the harder you press the accelerator in a high gear the louder it gets, try it on a hill as well to put engine under more load, it will probably start to pink sooner. Easy enough to try some higher octane fuel, I know I may get some flack for this but do you use supermarket fuel ? Modern cars have knock sensors on the engine to pick up the sound of knocking, in response to input from knock sensor what the ECU does is retard the ignition point (fires the spark later in compression stroke) this reduces damage to engine but also reduces the power, this will allow car with 11:1 compression to run on lower octane but at the price of lower power output. Knocking is trying to force the piston back down the way it came up, but without passing through top dead centre, this will damage the engine. Pinking (a kind of tinkling sound) is what you have left when the knock sensor has done its job, knocking is much louder and more destructive - but using too high a gear and a wide throttle opening will cause any petrol car to ping.
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I remember driving up to Aberdeen, many years ago, when I heard a noise I thought was a big end rumble (I had recently experienced the same on a previous car). I was in two minds whether to turn back or not, but I had my mother and another old dear in the car and they were heading to an important family function, so I carried on. Three years and 50,000 miles later I crashed into the front of a lorry driving that car with not a hint of big end rumble!
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I would go along with the 'pinking' theory as well, the circumstances are typical, wide throttle opening at low speed in an over high gear. Use the gearbox a bit more.
I would ask what fuel you are using, I am not criticising supermarket fuel which I use all the time albeit 99 octane ?
There are fuel stations that have sprung up that are selling an unnamed brand but that is cheaper by a couple of pence than is usual. I wouldn't go near these.
Vic.
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I usually use Esso for fuel as this is close to me, car was running Esso fuel when I had the tickle noise.
Filled up yesterday at Tesco though just because I was low and it was the next station I passed.
Will I have done any engine damage? This is the first time I've had this happen (4/5 ocassions last night trying to work out the noise and its origin) and in the future I will use the gear box more to avoid any unnecessary engine labour.
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And does every petrol car behave in this way? Or is this a fault?
I've always had diesels in the past.
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And does every petrol car behave in this way? Or is this a fault?
I've always had diesels in the past.
Diesels work on compression ignition but petrol cars should not (which is basically what it is doing when it knocks). I guess you are used to running a diesel at low revs in higher gear because of its lower down torque and limited rev range but you will have to get used to revving a petrol engine more to get the best out if it, especially a Honda engine. A tinkling noise, while not ideal should not damage the engine, but if it gets louder, more like a knocking it would, but knock sensors are there to protect the engine that is their job to reduce severity of the knock.
Most petrol engines will ping slightly at low revs in high gear, just because petrol is more flammable than diesel.
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I must be very lucky. I have never had a modern ECM controlled engine pink on me. Back in the old days, it was easy to make an engine pink, but whatever I am doing now seems to avoid it.
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I must be very lucky. I have never had a modern ECM controlled engine pink on me. Back in the old days, it was easy to make an engine pink, but whatever I am doing now seems to avoid it.
My GD 1.4 used to do it if I chose way too high a gear and put my foot down on a hill, but only a tinkle. Honda engines run about 11:1 CR so they must be doing something magic to avoid knocking. I could make it stop tinkling by using 97 or better, and better mpg.
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Culzean - what cat do you drive now?
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As a service to mankind I carried out an experiment this morning. While travelling at 20 mph in 4th gear, with the engine ticking over (my new approach to 20 mph zones), I floored the accelerator, with not a sound of pinking or any other engine noise. I later repeated the experiment in 5th at 25 mph with the same result. All I have ever used, with all of my cars, is supermarket 95 RON. I do at the moment have Redex Petrol Treatment added to the fuel but I haven't noticed any difference in fuel economy or performance since adding it.
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Thanks for this - I will need to test my other Jazz as this is the same as mine.
I wonder if the 1.2 behaves differently under these circumstances compared to the 1.4... I guess I will find out over the weekend!
Should my other Jazz not pink what could be causing this and is it a major problem?
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Modern engines have a knock sensor which should detect the onset of knocking and retard the ignition to compensate. Perhaps the sensor is faulty. I believe that a dirty Mass Air Flow Sensor can also cause pinking.
Something I sometimes get, if I have to change down from 4th into 3rd and stick it in 5th instead (I know, but I'm old and had a good time in the 60's), is my exhaust rattles where the middle box runs close to the offside sill. This has only started to happen since I replaced the exhaust.
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Can the MAF sensor be easily cleaned on the Jazz?
I've watched some videos of cars pinking and knocking on you tube and the sound seems a lot more pronounced to what I'm hearing on mine. I'm just wondering if the sound I'm getting is a rattle from another part of loose fitting somewhere...
I think I need to test my other Jazz to see if this does the same.
For info I did check there is an air filter element present last night
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A little tinkling sound from engine when you are doing what you are doing is to be expected, I will try my wifes 1.4 GE and my Civic today. As I said if it starts 'properly knocking' which is a louder, heavier sound you will now about it and that will need looking at (not to be confused with piston slap which can happen to modern engines until they warm up, but will happen on tick-over with no load). Turn the radio up. There is a reason it is called a 'knock sensor' and not a 'tinkle sensor' - if it only tinkles the knock sensor is doing its job.
I suggest you rev the engine properly and use the gears (which is no chore with the wonderful Jazz box), the Jazz engine is as far from a diesel as you can get in rev terms, I used to rev the nuts off my original Civic (the rev limiter was a good friend) and it did 190,000 miles while I had it, didn't use a drop of oil, never had valve clearance checked - original clutch, starter, alternator and never a spanner on engine, gearbox etc. only replaced 1 exhaust, brake pads and discs and cam belts - trust your Honda !
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Thanks to you both for your advice and help so far, greatly appreciated.
I would love to trust my Honda but in the 3 months of ownership i've had the following:
Clutch judder until car has warmed up (dealer can't find fault but has acknowledged the judder)
Air con failed twice (dealer still can't find a fault and just keeps recharging)
Several trim parts fell off or come apart and have had to be fixed (inside and outside)
Washer jets stopped working
Smell of petrol at startup but disappears when car has warmed up
Battery doesn't seem capable/weak
And now this pinking thing
Just to name a few things... this is from a car that's only had 1 previous owner, full Honda service history and has only done 40k miles.
I want to give the Honda a fair trial though so I will see the car out for a couple of years but it's my first Honda and I'm not overly impressed with it at the moment - maybe I was expecting a lot more as most people talk of Honda as being bulletproof but i've never had any of the above kind of problems with any other brand of cars, even Renault or Citroen which often get generalised stick for being unreliable.
I'm hoping the Honda comes good and I'm a believer in the saying 'only time can tell' so fingers crossed :)
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the Jazz engine is as far from a diesel as you can get in rev terms
I keep forgetting this. I drive my son's 1.4SE GD Jazz (2005) from time to time to keep it moving rather than just leave it standing on the drive. I keep forgetting it loves to rev highly, compared to my diesel H-RV, which is just the opposite really.
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Given 'ChrisJazz89' admission that he does not normally drive at more than a moderate pace, is it possible his pinking is as the result of the plugs needing a good clean and some gunge burnt off the valves etc.
The old Redex tune up might very well help, if a plug change is not on the cards. I have quoted this before and this situation is applicable.
Schoolteacher not old, Triumph Spitfire. Just would not pull, pinked like stink etc. Other garages had looked at with no difference. Established the teacher rarely exceeded 35mph. Gave it a good 'thrashing' with a dollop of Redex. Said teacher could not believe the difference. Never changed her driving habits but used to bring the car in for a tune up.
I am not advocating ChrisJazz89 gives his Jazz a thrashing but a good run at higher than his normal speeds might help. If he doesn't want to do high speeds just remain in a lower gear and use more revs.
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I tip I got MANY years ago was a glass of water through the carburettor. You took the air filter off, opened the throttle a bit, then spooned the water into the open carb mouth (easier on a down draught carb). Basically you steam clean the valves and such.
Don't know if I would try it these days though!
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Battery doesn't seem capable/weak
Just to name a few things... this is from a car that's only had 1 previous owner, full Honda service history and has only done 40k miles.
If battery is original it is over 7 years old - OEM battery may give good service for 5 years if you are lucky, but after that living on borrowed time - get a Yuasa one in there.
Dealer service history is not worth the paper it is stamped on, it is only used to blackmail people into giving dealer money for often doing little more than cleaning the car 'to keep your warranty' , I have bought cars at about 3 years old with full dealer service history and (because I do my own servicing and get down and dirty with cars) have seen oil filters with major rust on them (original, never been changed) air filters that were so black and clogged it is a wonder the engine ran at all, and cabin filters so clogged its a wonder the people in the car could breathe.
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My car came with a full service. When I checked it, the air filter was black and there was no pollen filter fitted!
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Culzean did you manage test yours out today with the pinking thing?
I checked my air filter and in fairness it looks new as does the pollen filter. Oil looks golden too and is at the right level so at least it looks fairly well maintained...
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I was taught to change gear when a car laboured. The last pinking I experienced was a 1929 Riley 9 Monaco. Adjusting the ignition timing via the lever on the steering wheel - it had a series of levers which rotated the magneto to advance/retard the ignition - solved the problem. That was in 1966. :-)
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Thanks for it replies - I was testing this again over the weekend whilst out and about.
On a completely flat road, empty car and pushing pedal down about half way either in 4th or 5th from 35mph to 40mph is when I can reproduce the noise. - I'm not really aye that this is 'labouring the engine' in these gears at these speeds?
As soon as the car hits 40mph the noise stops. The noise only seems to happen at 35-40mph in 4th and 5th gear - even does it going downbank.
Doesn't do it at all in 3rd gear at these speeds.
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Hondas have always had high revving motors,
I personally wouldn't give any engine full throttle below 3 ,500 RPM,ideally 4,000 then let it spin up to its max
,in the case of the Jazz,about 6.500rpm,
its better for the engine to let it spin,rather than flog it like a steam engine .
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I try to avoid giving full throttle under any circumstance but there again, I am particular;y frugal when it comes to revs. My ScanGauge records the maximum revs for any given trip or day and I seldom ever exceed 3500 rpm. I have only ever recorded in excess of 4000 once, since I fitted the ScanGauge. Today, I checked the revs after my morning in town commute, and the maximum revs recorded were 2305. But that is just my driving style.
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Just to clarify, although I do get the noise as full throttle, I can also reproduce it with the accelerator pedal only half way pressed down which I don't think is full throttle?
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Just found this thread.
Our Jazz makes this sucking noise you describe in similar circumstances.
Moderate (not necessarily full) throttle in 5th.
Sounds like induction noise, filter housing, etc.
I've experienced pinking in other cars. This sounds completely different in my opinion.
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Welcome Nick. Have you checked there is a filter element in the air filter box?
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In my experience excessive induction noise is associated usually with air leaks - caused by poor fitting or splits in flexible joints which are difficult to spot *...or as Jocko says no air filter element..
* usually only found by removal and stretching.
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check for air intake leaks with some carb cleaner.
idle the engine and squirt carb cleaner around the intake route. make sure you squirt around gaskets and hoses.
The engine note will change if there is a leak.
I would say it needs a long hard drive as modern engines appear to be suffering from carbon build up when not driven hard enough. Red x may help..
I wouldn't be pouring water down the intake, too much and you will wreck the engine.
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Quick update for my problem...
I'd been irritated by the sucking noise, but not sufficiently bothered to investigate it until I saw this thread.
Having given myself a wake-up slap, I had a dig under the bonnet and discovered that one of the filter cover side clips has lost its plastic locking end (presumably during garage service), so left side of cover is not being pulled down tightly.
For the moment, I've just pushed it down more firmly, and it seems over the past week or so, I haven't noticed the noise as much. Hopefully, this is the cause.
Now, I need to find out whether I can get a replacement clip or need to either buy a whole replacement airbox or cobble together some sort of diy fix.
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I can only describe the noise as a suction noise
Probably just the turbo.
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Thosee clips can be obtained from scrap yeards or your dealer , quite common to have one go missing. Have you checked around the a/c to see if its lurking uinderneath ?
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Airbox clips are cheaper from a main dealer. I had to buy one - under £6 iirc..- I "lost" one.. :o
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It may be that over time the clip has disappeared. BUT the first time I did an air filter, I dropped one down into the engine bay. Undo the engine tray one side ( under the air filter) and keep banging the plastic mine just popped out because the two trays dip towards the centre. Clearly a design fault that one can drop the pesky things.Good Luck.
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Clearly a design fault that one can drop the pesky things.Good Luck.
That design fault? Are you talking about God and his design of the human hand?
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Clearly a design fault that one can drop the pesky things.Good Luck.
That design fault? Are you talking about God and his design of the human hand?
I think auntneddy is referring to the fact that clips are not properly hinged / captive and can be dropped.
The human hand is one of natures finest creations - G-o-d (or any other deity / Idol had nought to do with it* )
(* reference C Darwin, c/o the Beagle, Galapagos Islands, Ecuador North Pacific - 'On the Origin of Species')
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No not him upstairs. The brilliant Honda number cruncher that possibly saves the company a few pennies by NOT making the clip a hinged item like wot they used to do.
The human hand when it gets a bit knackered unfortunately cant go along to your friendly Honda dealer and have a new hinge put on the one thing a Human hand has, is the opposable joint.I know mine are a problem!!!!!!!!!!!
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Temporarily tie a piece of string to clip and attach to local pipe or cable before you try to unclip it - at least it stops clip disappearing into bowels of the engine compartment if you fumble it.
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Quick update for my problem...
I'd been irritated by the sucking noise, but not sufficiently bothered to investigate it until I saw this thread.
Having given myself a wake-up slap, I had a dig under the bonnet and discovered that one of the filter cover side clips has lost its plastic locking end (presumably during garage service), so left side of cover is not being pulled down tightly.
For the moment, I've just pushed it down more firmly, and it seems over the past week or so, I haven't noticed the noise as much. Hopefully, this is the cause.
Now, I need to find out whether I can get a replacement clip or need to either buy a whole replacement airbox or cobble together some sort of diy fix.
Hi Nick, would be interested to know if this has fixed yours as the symptoms are similar to mine. I had a very quick look under my bonnet and all 4 air box clips are present though and I couldn't see anywhere air would leak from. Will need have a closer/longer look though to be certain.
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Sorry to resurrect an old thread but just wondering if the OP solved this noise problem in the end?
I've had the same thing on a 2009 manual 1.2 Vtec Mk2 Jazz for well over 18 months and I just can't seem to pin it down. The noise only appears in 4th and 5th gears between 1600 and 2000 rpm with moderate to heavy throttle and engine under load (but even then it will do it on the flat or slight downhills). It's most noticeable when accelerating up to 40 at the end of a 30mph zone in 4th gear.
So far I've tried 99RON fuel, new spark plugs, Italian tune-up, checking and adjusting the valve clearances, Redex added to the fuel and new manual transmission oil along with the standard service items. None of these have had any effect on the noise problem but did make the car feel livelier.
I can only think now that it's either a loose heatshield, slight manifold leak, a gearbox bearing problem or perhaps a clutch problem.
It'd be great to know if the OP or anybody else has found the fix as it's been driving me crazy :P
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Hi All and hope all enjoying long weekend.
Came here for browse kiling time and been reading about the engine undertray! Without having to get underneath/car on ramp, how would I know if car has engine undertray?
Whilst on this topic, noticed when parked in local asda that rear wheel arches do not appear to have covers/guards (that are clearly visible on the front wheel arches) and is this normal?
Many thanks for any replies.