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Other Hondas & General Topics => Off Topic (Non-Honda) => Topic started by: auntyneddy on July 12, 2017, 11:36:56 AM

Title: Electric cars
Post by: auntyneddy on July 12, 2017, 11:36:56 AM
Yesterday, received an update on our hairdressers Renault ZOE. Back at the main dealers AGAIN. This time a failure of the info system. What the out come was as Husband wasn't back' In her words probably be in black thunder if he has had the usual trouble,wait all day to be told can't fix it have to be new part from France.  That's why I am not allowed to go after I told them Its a pity you are not as good repairing them as you are selling them. So its not only Honda.
Air con failed in the recent heatwave, plus other constant niggles but what has shall we say upset them is the dealer used to allow a free charge up, now it's £6 for half an hour. It was this that showed them they did not have the car they ordered. They wanted a fast charge battery system, but after £6 worth the battery was no where charged. Check paperwork, it's the car ordered according to the paperwork.Sorry that salesman has left, no you can't complain. Both Husband and Wife were present on ordering. So is it a case of taking a tape recorder when you go to a dealer for ANYTHING? All of this is as related, it does nothing to suggest that these electric vehicles have a lot of development before they are foisted onto the public.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: VicW on July 12, 2017, 04:43:02 PM
When a totally electric car will do 450 miles on a charge with the same use all year round and will recharge with the ease with which I refuel with petrol and will cost the same to buy, then I might consider one.

Vic.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on July 12, 2017, 05:34:09 PM
I'm quite interested in electric cars because they would do 95% (possibly more) of my motoring. The longest return trip I've done this year is a 50 mile return trip. I do see the benefits not so much from a climate change point of view but certainly from an air quality one.

Interesting that this has come up today because the old lady next door came back from the shops in a Prius Taxi - a lot of taxis round here are Priuses and old ones at that. I asked the taxi driver how he found the Prius and he said it was great around town as far as mpg goes - less so on longer trips although still pretty good. I asked him if it did any mileage at all on electric only and he said he reckoned the range was no more than 2 miles at low speeds but the car did use the electric only mode quite a lot in stop start traffic.

The enthusiasm for EVs has, to some extent, overshadowed hybrids but they seem ideal as a town car. Not that I'm in the market at the moment but I think I might consider a hybrid next time.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on July 12, 2017, 06:24:13 PM
I am old enough to remember the power cuts of the 1970s.
Where we live in Staffs Moorlands was subject to long blackouts every winter for decades until the electrical supply   systems were improved in the 2000s.

I refuse to rely on electric heating and have a small petrol stand by generator..

Would I wish to be totally dependent on the elctricity supply? Knowing if the car ran out of charge, I would be stuck until it was restored AND the car was recharged...

(And having an automated house running on the mains?)

All our PCs have battery backups (bought cheaply)  due to prior outages.

Wait till the UK runs out of electrical generating capacity..
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on July 12, 2017, 06:47:26 PM
The electricity supply in UK has been getting more and more precarious for decades due to scrapping reliable coal fired stations and putting too much faith in unreliable wind and solar,  and successive governments inability to make decision on building new nuclear stations,  and due to delays country has lost ability to build its own nuclear and we have to go begging to French and chinese.   Most winters we have been down to less than a 5% reserve capacity and there has been talk of shutting industry down if we had any cold weather.

Electricity is hard and expensive to store so you need to generate it when it is needed,  if we had a cold winter with little wind we would be up the creek with no paddle. Solar in UK generates most power when you need it least,  in the daytime in summer.

The truth is we have idiots in charge of our energy policies.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/05/wind-turbines-are-neither-clean-nor-green-and-they-provide-zero-global-energy/ (https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/05/wind-turbines-are-neither-clean-nor-green-and-they-provide-zero-global-energy/)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 12, 2017, 06:53:11 PM
I truly believe that electric cars will never become "big" during my lifetime. For a start, the UK doesn't have enough electricity capacity to charge huge fleets of electric vehicles. We are on the verge of brownouts now. And where do you charge them? Most motorists don't have off street parking near their house.
They just built a new hospital wing here in Kirkcaldy and put in charging bays in the car park. Two of them!
Tesla's Supercharger supposedly gives 80% charge in 45 minutes, but even Tesla takes overnight to charge from a home charger.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: jazzster on July 12, 2017, 07:14:17 PM
I have been looking at electric cars for a while now, i have the same thought about power cuts, dont have many at the moments but uk capacity from power stations suppose to be borderline in winter, also the car are way to expensive and depreciation way to much money in few years, replacment batteries would cost more than most of the car are worth at 4 or 5 years old, I thought about hybrids but they seem to expensive for the savings on mpg.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 12, 2017, 07:40:45 PM
Of the current crop of electric vehicles I think the PHEV models are probably the best bet. Assuming you have your home charger you can probably run "electric" for a load of your normal running about. In my case that would be about 50 - 60% of my motoring. You then have the "hybrid mode" for the rest. The Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV does about 30 miles on battery alone.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on July 12, 2017, 07:46:12 PM
Of the current crop of electric vehicles I think the PHEV models are probably the best bet. Assuming you have your home charger you can probably run "electric" for a load of your normal running about. In my case that would be about 50 - 60% of my motoring. You then have the "hybrid mode" for the rest. The Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV does about 30 miles on battery alone.

I worked with a couple of engineers who had Outlanders as company vehicles,  they say don't rely on more than 20 miles on a full battery (it is a heavy vehicle and the battery weighs 500kg) - after that 30mpg and only a relatively small fuel tank for the size of the vehicle.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 12, 2017, 08:25:27 PM
I just picked the Outlander as an example. I pass an advert every day. It is the principle of PHEV that I am saying seems best compromise at present. Mind you, even 20 miles would be more than adequate for my daily miles. VW Golf would suit me better! It supposedly does 30 miles and takes 2.5 hours to charge.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on July 12, 2017, 08:45:52 PM
There are growing numbers of reports of electric vehicles setting on fire,  especially those with lithium-ion batteries.  Fire departments are worried about how to deal with battery fires in crashed electric cars as well. The amount of power being stored in EV batteries (over 100KW/h ) makes them similar to a bomb waiting to go off. And the amount of toxic fumes released in a Li-Ion battery fire are equivalent to all of Saddam Husseins 'weapons of mass destruction' put together LOL

Remember the problems with Boeing Dreamliner aircraft fires a a few years ago and you still cannot transport Li-ion on passenger aircraft.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/23/lithium-ion-batteries-banned-as-cargo-on-passenger-flights (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/23/lithium-ion-batteries-banned-as-cargo-on-passenger-flights)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 12, 2017, 09:44:08 PM
Personally, I will never have an electric car, for various reason. Unless of course I win the lottery. Then I will have a BMW i8 in my stable!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on July 13, 2017, 09:40:14 AM
The truth is we have idiots in charge of our energy policies.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/05/wind-turbines-are-neither-clean-nor-green-and-they-provide-zero-global-energy/ (https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/05/wind-turbines-are-neither-clean-nor-green-and-they-provide-zero-global-energy/)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TG on July 13, 2017, 09:54:04 AM
Then I will have a BMW i8 in my stable
My next door neighbour in Yorkshire has one - has never plugged it in, and in my London parking structure another i8 and an Audi R8 share three spaces as they are too wide for a standard bay (plus there are no sockets in the reserved spaces); be interesting to see what they fetch at end of lease - new they are £100k.  Chevrolet Bolt (not Volt) is a fantastic car, shame about the badge snob factor, and that an RHD version is unlikely by GM.

After getting a briefing on the new Audi A8, it seems obvious that we will all be getting 'mild hybrid' cars over the next decade as cars standardise on a 48V power subsystem with limited storage in addition to the 12V cold start battery.
--
TG
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on July 13, 2017, 12:28:38 PM
I wonder how the real cost of the charging compares with petrol? A 100kWh battery would cost £15 to £20 to fully charge at current domestic tariffs. Free / subsidised charging will disappear as the number of electric vehicles increases.

Hybrid has a lot of potential as (i) there's the recovery of energy lost to braking and (ii) it allows the engine to spend more of its time operating under the most efficient conditions. Honda's Mk 2 Jazz hybrid was a bit half baked as both the battery (a heavy lead acid lump) and motor/generator were of limited capacity. A hybrid version of the Mk 3 Jazz is sold in some parts of the world but not here.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 13, 2017, 01:00:59 PM
My next door neighbour in Yorkshire has one - has never plugged it in, and in my London parking structure another i8 and an Audi R8 share three spaces as they are too wide for a standard bay (plus there are no sockets in the reserved spaces); be interesting to see what they fetch at end of lease - new they are £100k. 
True, but if I win the lottery none of that will make a blind bit of difference to me! I'd probably use all three bays, lengthwise!!!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on July 13, 2017, 01:07:44 PM
Some good points John. At some stage the decline in tax revenues will force change. I also agree that, as the ICE disappears or certainly gets banned from use in highly populated areas and EVs become the norm then the need for subsidies to attract people to buy them will become less.

In the meantime, I still think hybrids have a role to play in the air quality stakes.

The elephant in the room though, is the advent of fully autonomous vehicles. That might change the whole concept of owning a car if you can just summon one up. Not sure I could make the leap from owning a car but I think I'll be pushing up daisies by the time this takes off completely.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 13, 2017, 01:33:16 PM
but I think I'll be pushing up daisies by the time this takes off completely.

Yes, it is not high on my worry list either. I started driving when petrol was 4/4d a gallon, and MOT's and the breathalyser were well in the future!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on July 13, 2017, 02:56:42 PM
The elephant in the room though, is the advent of fully autonomous vehicles. That might change the whole concept of owning a car if you can just summon one up. Not sure I could make the leap from owning a car but I think I'll be pushing up daisies by the time this takes off completely.

IMHO people who haven't left school yet will also be pushing up daisies before fully autonomous cars are ready for the road and can handle everything that both other vehicles and mother nature can throw at them = things that us mere humans take in our stride and even the dumbest driver can handle - the best they can do at the moment if they hit and unexpected situation is stop where they are.  As for car ownership,  our car is a great source of pride to most of us,  do you really want to share a vehicle with thousands of others ??

The legal stuff will need massive sorting out,  for instance do you need a driving licence to 'be in charge' of an AV,  if the car crashes whose fault is it, the maker of the car,  the software supplier, the other vehicle (if one involved).  I have seen videos of present day 'state of the art' AV's on trial even just on test tracks suddenly veer into barriers or cross to the other side of the road for no reason,  and the LIDAR they use does not have the resolution to pick up objects (even car sized ones) that are too far from the car,  drivers report vehicles not even attempting to brake when approaching stationary traffic queues.

There is a roadmap of 5 levels set out for autonomous vehicles #5 being fully autonomous with no one in charge of the vehicle,  level 5 is a distant dream according to most experts.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on July 13, 2017, 03:18:27 PM
No I don't and that's why I am secretly relieved it's a longish way down the track. I sense upcoming generations have a different mind set though.

PS

Sorry - just to be clear - I agree I don't fancy sharing a car. Not even keen on anybody driving my car.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on July 13, 2017, 04:05:00 PM
No I don't and that's why I am secretly relieved it's a longish way down the track. I sense upcoming generations have a different mind set though.

PS

Sorry - just to be clear - I agree I don't fancy sharing a car. Not even keen on anybody driving my car.

It is actually surprising that polls show that many young people don't like electric cars,  and are not keen on autonomous ones either.   Our roads would soon be clogged with driverless cars scooting around, maybe empty on their way to pick up an indian takeaway or to pick kids up from school.

I you missed this BBC Horizon program recently it is worth a watch on i-player  -horizon-2017-dawn-of-the-driverless-car
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on July 13, 2017, 05:46:44 PM
I did see the Horizon programme - it was interesting.

I suppose one thing we have all probably learned over the years - predictions about the future have a habit of being proved wide of the mark - paperless office anyone?!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 13, 2017, 05:52:10 PM
predictions about the future have a habit of being proved wide of the mark
Anyone who watched "Tomorrows World" can vouch for that.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on July 13, 2017, 08:57:11 PM
Indeed!

TV didn't kill radio - it didn't even kill cinema or theatre.

Culzean touches on an important point about pride of ownership and there is something else. A lot of us will take some pride and even enjoyment in the skills involved in driving - is automating these skills necessarily a good thing?

We often see the word "artisan" being used to describe anything from cheese to beer if it is made by traditional methods - there is still a desire to do stuff rather than let a machine do it all.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 13, 2017, 09:12:54 PM
Just watched the Horizon programme. Really looking forward to bullying the autonomous cars. A bit like driving a banger and forcing your way in on a 17 reg shiny!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on July 13, 2017, 09:35:01 PM
Just watched the Horizon programme. Really looking forward to bullying the autonomous cars. A bit like driving a banger and forcing your way in on a 17 reg shiny!

Looking forward to another source of amusement on the roads as well.

I think roads will have to change before autonomous vehicles can even be considered,  maybe guide wires buried under roads and special transponders or similar built into traffic lights and speed limit signs as a minimum.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TG on July 14, 2017, 12:49:08 AM
I believe that all manufactures will have drivetrains similar to that of the new Audi A8 fairly soon with a small motor/generator in place of the traditional alternator.  There has been widespread consensus in the automotive supply chain to move to 48V systems as the number of drivetrain electric motors is rapidly increasing (suspension, engine control and even in turbochargers) this will save weight and reduce cable size, but for efficiency the power demands and surplus must be averaged out.  What Audi have done is introduce a continuously engaged belt driven alternator starter motor (BAS) with a small 48V 10Ah Li-ion battery, this extends the idle-stop concept to while the car is moving.  This motor can keep the car coasting for a minute or generate power while decelerating, it's also used to start the engine (except for initial cold starting when a conventional 12V Pb battery and pinion starter is used).  In the Audi it's smart as it also uses the navigation system and road/traffic sensors to predict when to coast/generate/or start the ICE.

This car meets level 3 autonomy when faced with a congested dual carriageway (Tesla Autopilot is level 2; if you only need to get in the back seat it's level 5 of 5).  The car's ability to understand it's environment of approaching cyclists along the kerb or weaving in front, white line motor bikes, cars approaching perpendicularly etc. is quite awesome (and a few bits of it are British).  The variety of ultrasonic, optical, infra red and laser sensors enable the car to build a very detailed picture of kerbs, white lines, vegetation, and lifeforms.

One other factor leading towards autonomy is the recent ratification of the V2x wireless protocol (vehicle to everything), this will enable cars to broadcast data up to 500m.  Listeners may be other cars, traffic control systems etc.  For example if a car performed hard braking, listeners behind can take appropriate action, it would also enable cars to convoy more effectively, plus the vehicle mode could respond to environmental inputs such as air quality zones.
--
TG
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on July 14, 2017, 06:42:11 AM
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/98964/electric-car-growth-to-ramp-up-pressure-on-energy-providers (http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/98964/electric-car-growth-to-ramp-up-pressure-on-energy-providers)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on July 14, 2017, 07:54:03 AM
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/98964/electric-car-growth-to-ramp-up-pressure-on-energy-providers (http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/98964/electric-car-growth-to-ramp-up-pressure-on-energy-providers)
That problem can be addressed by having variable tariffs depending on time of day when the power is used which can be easily implemented once everyone has a smart meter.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 14, 2017, 08:35:05 AM
I already have that for my storage heating and water heater.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: pb82gh3 on July 14, 2017, 09:02:33 AM
And what about hackers?- I can imagine them having a field day. The whole country could be brought  to a grinding halt by those pesky Russians.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on July 14, 2017, 10:36:43 AM
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/98964/electric-car-growth-to-ramp-up-pressure-on-energy-providers (http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/98964/electric-car-growth-to-ramp-up-pressure-on-energy-providers)
That problem can be addressed by having variable tariffs depending on time of day when the power is used which can be easily implemented once everyone has a smart meter.

If energy companies ever introduce variable tariffs they will be  Tarrif 1. expensive.   Tarriff 2. very expensive.
And a special meter on your car charger  and government get 80% in tax.  It is the fact that you needed to keep coal fired stations running all the time (can't suddenly switch them on and off) that bought in 'economy 7' as otherwise electricity generated overnight would have gone to waste,  with gas powered it is easier to control the energy that is generated,  and with solar you don't get any at night,  and with wind not so much.

Our leader blind faith in Solar (only works in daytime and in UK makes most of its power when not needed,  in daylight in summer)  and wind (only works when the wind blows in 'goldilocks zone',  but if wind blows too much or not enough does not work either).

Governments have a great track record of waiting until enough people have been lured into a fuel source and then when they are committed introducing a tax on that fuel.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on July 14, 2017, 12:49:51 PM
One of the issues with renewables - especially wind - is that it often produces surges of power which can overload the grid. They then have to be turned off by the grid.

I am no expert but I've read a bit about the inadequacy of the grid - its lack of flexibility. Wider use of electric vehicles, especially if charged at home and at night will even out that particular trough in demand.

Then there's Elon Musk and his Tesla power wall. He certainly thinks battery storage is the future.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: VicW on July 14, 2017, 03:06:24 PM
That problem can be addressed by having variable tariffs depending on time of day when the power is used which can be easily implemented once everyone has a smart meter.

This system already exists in the form of the Economy 7 tariff.
The Smart Meter body has recently admitted that smart meters are not going to be compulsory so not every household will have one.

Vic.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: RichardA on July 23, 2017, 03:25:43 PM
Of the current crop of electric vehicles I think the PHEV models are probably the best bet. Assuming you have your home charger you can probably run "electric" for a load of your normal running about. In my case that would be about 50 - 60% of my motoring. You then have the "hybrid mode" for the rest. The Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV does about 30 miles on battery alone.

I worked with a couple of engineers who had Outlanders as company vehicles,  they say don't rely on more than 20 miles on a full battery (it is a heavy vehicle and the battery weighs 500kg) - after that 30mpg and only a relatively small fuel tank for the size of the vehicle.

Based on that it is incredible that South East Coast Ambulance use these as paramedic response vehicles.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 23, 2017, 03:42:32 PM
Auto Express got 54 mpg over 10,135 miles.
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/mitsubishi/outlander/87981/long-term-test-review-mitsubishi-outlander-phev (http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/mitsubishi/outlander/87981/long-term-test-review-mitsubishi-outlander-phev)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: auntyneddy on July 26, 2017, 11:26:40 AM
It is ironic that HM Government has announced the ending of petrol and diesel car sales in the UK come 2040.
I have just read an  E mail from my Brother in Canada. He moves in far higher circles than I. It seems he was in conversation with somebody important to do with BC power. I assume that British Columbia only has one power company. However the gist of the conversation was that British Columbia is at present time unable to cope with the increased  power demand that will come from electric vehicles. I assume that all of British Columbia's electricity comes from Hydro electric schemes. The government/power company will have to build at least one if not more power plants to cope.
Going back to UK Governments announcement I do wonder if the oil companies will take it lying down.
Another point very rarely mentioned, I believe concrete is one of the most polluting materials. Yet here we are building this that and the other to save the planet. Lithium is a rare earth commodity  I believe, without the huge amount of copper required for motors generators etc. Why on earth can't all the interested parties sit down and work out the relative costs savings. I would suggest while petrol cars pollute diesels definitely do, if we get rid of them how much pollution will be caused by the production of  all the new power stations/wind turbines/solar panels and all of the environmental damage caused by mining and the new factories needed for the 'new' technology. The oil industry is here, the infrastructure is here revised figures tell us oil reserves are far greater than at first believed and are the oil producing countries going to sit back in penury? We have experienced what happens when they can't agree internally and enough of our armed forces have suffered as the result. How bad will it be if we in the west tell them to stick their oil. Boy is this a conversation piece.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: pb82gh3 on July 26, 2017, 11:46:49 AM
These are the factors the environmentalists conveniently omit from their arguments. Electric cars with zero emissions alone don't tell anything like the whole story. Combine that with UK's lamentable electricity production "planning" - we are frighteningly near to blackouts and rationing should a hard winter hit us, even with a tiny number of electric cars and hybrids - and you have a vivid demonstration of the incompetence  of the Department of Energy and Climate Change.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 26, 2017, 12:00:34 PM
If you have not already seen it, watch this presentation. And it doesn't even touch on where the electricity will come from!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BWJcpesr6A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BWJcpesr6A)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on July 26, 2017, 12:59:56 PM
I guess a lot depends on the grid and how that works. Figures I've seen indicate that 95% of EV charging is done at night when the grid is relatively quiet and can probably run on renewables. There are huge strides being made in battery technology as well enabling storage. I am no expert but I don't think you can just dismiss the potential demise of fossil fuels as unrealistic or impossible. 2040 is 23 years hence. That is a positive eternity in technological terms.

At some point oil will run out even if reserves are higher than we first thought and much of the remaining oil will be hard to get at like the tar sands in Canada. We should be aiming for a world free of fossil fuels even if that does mean nuclear to provide a baseload.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on July 26, 2017, 04:49:08 PM
Figures I've seen indicate that 95% of EV charging is done at night when the grid is relatively quiet and can probably run on renewables.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/25/new-diesel-petrol-cars-banned-uk-roads-2040-government-unveils/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/25/new-diesel-petrol-cars-banned-uk-roads-2040-government-unveils/)

The grid is probably only quiet between 12 midnight and 5 am - most electric vehicles need a longer charge time than that.

Solar power does not work at night,  and in winter in UK we have a lot of night and not much day, we also have a lot of clouds in UK which reduce output of solar.   I drive past a lot of wind farms and often see most or all of the generators not rotating,  wind often drops at night when the driver of wind ie. mainly the difference in temperature between land and sea, tend to equalise out.  The truth is we no longer have a steady, reliable source of electrical energy once we go away from coal, gas and nuclear.  Our energy planners live on a different planet to us mere mortals,  a place where the sun shines 24/7 and the wind is always blowing in the 'goldilocks zone' of 20 to 40 mph where wind power is viable.

Storing gigawatts of power in batteries is gonna need an awful lot of batteries and infrastructure, and we all know that a charged battery is like a bomb,  put too many in one place and you have another potential Chernobyl. 

electric vehicles - the inconvenient truth video
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6GeHnMwl1c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6GeHnMwl1c)     
at about 11 minutes in even the CEO of Panasonic batteries (who make batteries for Tesla) says Elon Musk is wasting his time trying to store large amounts of energy using batteries.

Oh,  and has anyone noticed that when electricity is used in a vehicle the makers don't classify it as a fuel,  because apparently some vehicles can go many miles without using any fuel.

I would have more faith in a government that scrapped the HS2 white elephant vanity project that is out of date even before they start building it and spent the money on new nuclear power stations.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on July 27, 2017, 10:50:02 AM
Agree on HS2 and nuclear. I think we need a supply of energy that can meet what I think they call baseload. I also wonder what has happened to nuclear fusion?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: bill888 on July 27, 2017, 11:16:14 AM
Perhaps the oil companies will propose building clean oil powered electricity power stations to cope with all these electric cars :-)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on July 27, 2017, 12:00:31 PM
Agree on HS2 and nuclear. I think we need a supply of energy that can meet what I think they call baseload. I also wonder what has happened to nuclear fusion?


For me Nuclear fusion is in the same basket as self driving cars on our standard unmodified roads mixing with normal traffic,  a nice idea but unachievable in practice.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 27, 2017, 01:11:49 PM
"Self driving cars", Level 3, will never be a success as they still require an alert human to supervise them. However, "Driverless cars", Level 4 and 5 will work and could take to the road today if the powers that be wished it. Even at their current level they are safer than a car driven by a human driver.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on July 27, 2017, 02:46:26 PM
Agree on HS2 and nuclear. I think we need a supply of energy that can meet what I think they call baseload. I also wonder what has happened to nuclear fusion?

I have my Mr Fusion on order. Where I'm going, I don't need roads...
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on July 27, 2017, 02:52:14 PM
"Self driving cars", Level 3, will never be a success as they still require an alert human to supervise them. However, "Driverless cars", Level 4 and 5 will work and could take to the road today if the powers that be wished it. Even at their current level they are safer than a car driven by a human driver.

I disagree,  us humans can make decisions in situations that would leave a 'driverless car' floundering or dangerous,  even indistinct lane markings or lines in the road that are not supposed to be there can cause autonomous car to do stupid and dangerous things, all a human would do is curse the 'bloody local council' and carry on.   I was involved in automation of machines, factories and warehouses for more years than i like to think about and I know how difficult it is to get closed, well routed systems working properly 100% of the time, I can well imagine how difficult it can be to get totally random systems like the traffic on our roads anywhere near the level it needs to be to 'be safer than human driver'.    There is so much hype around EV and autonomous vehicles at the moment I do not believe a fraction of it.  No company wants to be left behind and they are claiming stuff that is not currently workable.  I have seen programs and videos of autonomous vehicles,  even on test tracks doing stupid things like suddenly crossing onto other side of track or crashing into barriers for no explicable reason.  Self driving cars are like something from 'tomorrows world TV program' at the moment - and how many of those things came into mainstream use.

I worry about sensors getting coated with squashed insects, dust, mud or snow and ice, this would cripple the cars systems and the only safe thing it could do is come to a halt exactly where it is,  maybe in the centre lane of a motorway or on an off-ramp.  AI works well in certain set-piece situations,  but it needs an enormous amount of time and work to even come close to a human brains ability to reason and make decisions in real time about random events.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on July 27, 2017, 03:01:14 PM
I am working in AI now and I could not agree more with Culzean. What AI is starting to do now is learn from humans by observing what we do in every situation. The problem is, with the variability of driving these days, the amount of observation and trial by error tp be done will take many years. The only way it could work, even given today's latest t technology, would be for us all to have it fitted and switched off, but in observation mode, recording real world scenarios and human decisions, for many years, before enough data exists for the AI to take over.

Only if every single car had AI driving fitted and they all followed absolutely identical rules and behaviours (none of this Volvo AI vs BMW AI nonsense), and they all communicated in real time with each other about where they are, what speed, direction, acceleration, vehicle condition, weather, what they have seen, all of that - then everything would be wonderful and safe, and so incredibly dull.

But imagine a Volvo AI car approaching an BMW AI car and then something unexpected happens. How can one type of AI anticipate the other types behaviour? Or if a collision is inevitable? Does the car carrying a pair of pensioners head for a tree to save the lives or a car carrying a young family?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 27, 2017, 03:14:14 PM
Does the car carrying a pair of pensioners head for a tree to save the lives or a car carrying a young family?
I think it is the Google autonomous car that is currently programmed to protect the occupants, so to avoid injury to it's one of two passengers it will happily mow down a group of children!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TG on July 27, 2017, 03:30:33 PM
....and they all communicated in real time with each other about where they are, what speed, direction, acceleration, vehicle condition, weather, what they have seen, all of that - then everything would be wonderful and safe, and so incredibly dull.  ....How can one type of AI anticipate the other types behaviour?
The V2X (vehicle to everything) protocol has recently been ratified, although much work will still to be need to be done on the vocabulary.  This will let everything interested in a ~500m area listen for broadcasts, i.e. the hard breaking car hidden by the van in front will alert followers.  Maybe this will mean green traffic lights more often, or not? "Turn green, I'm a VIP approaching"

http://www.st.com/en/applications/automotive-and-transportation/vehicle-to-everything-v2x.html (http://www.st.com/en/applications/automotive-and-transportation/vehicle-to-everything-v2x.html)

"Not every car is going to turn into an autonomous vehicle overnight. As more V2X-enabled cars hit the streets and the V2X network becomes stronger, more information can be shared between autonomous and legacy cars. V2X users benefit from the network effect principle: V2X is designed to be a collaborative technology that gets stronger with each node that’s added to the network"
--
TG
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on July 27, 2017, 06:18:06 PM
Self driving cars will of course require dealer only servicing. Period.
At regular intervals. Period.

Any bodging could and probably  will result in multiple fatalities..
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 27, 2017, 06:42:02 PM
I tend to thing that once autonomous vehicles become common place, you will just hire one as you need it. You will call it up, it will take you where you want to go and drop you there. (I am currently reading "Driverless Car Revolution: Buy Mobility, Not Metal" by Rutt Bridges.)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TG on July 27, 2017, 06:46:17 PM
Self driving cars will of course require dealer only servicing. Period.
....but you won't need to own one if you live in a town, it will just turn up at your door.  One of the theories floating around is that parking will disappear and cars will just drive away to somewhere else and recharge.  Driverless operation is really best if no one is in the car, it can prioritise the safety of those around it instead; I would have loved it earlier today if I could have got out at the ritzy shop I needed to visit (with no parking) and told the car to come back in 10 minutes.

When Oslo found it could not ban vehicles from it's centre, it did the next best thing; the plan is to remove parking instead.
--
TG
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on July 31, 2017, 06:47:49 PM
If anyone is expecting wind turbines to supply electrical energy for vehicles these two articles are a reality check,  all the wind turbines achieve at the moment is to give the people who run electricity grids, (who need to provide power where and when it is needed) a headache,  because of extreme variation in wind and the effect this has on generation some countries just use wind turbines to supply power for pumped storage schemes,  where the lakes can be topped up as and when turbines decide they may generate a bit of power.  Imagine if we had to go back to wind power to move commercial ships around,  it is just too damned unreliable. 

Average output of a wind turbine annually is a small fraction of its full capacity,  which can only be utilised in winds above 30mph and below 50mph, the 'goldilocks zone' LOL

And governments continue to subsidise wind farms,  even though we have many years of experience to show they are a complete waste of time.

https://www.wind-watch.org/faq-output.php (https://www.wind-watch.org/faq-output.php)

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/05/wind-turbines-are-neither-clean-nor-green-and-they-provide-zero-global-energy/ (https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/05/wind-turbines-are-neither-clean-nor-green-and-they-provide-zero-global-energy/)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 31, 2017, 07:04:36 PM
They reckon that battery storage is the future. Battery technology is supposedly moving forward in leaps and bounds. The technology I have linked to is supposedly coming to fruition. It may not come to pass in my lifetime, but it is not that far away.
And even as late as last year Lockheed Martin were still investing heavily in their "compact fusion reactor". When these businesses throw enough money at projects, things start to happen.

http://media.ntu.edu.sg/NewsReleases/Pages/newsdetail.aspx?news=809fbb2f-95f0-4995-b5c0-10ae4c50c934 (http://media.ntu.edu.sg/NewsReleases/Pages/newsdetail.aspx?news=809fbb2f-95f0-4995-b5c0-10ae4c50c934)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on July 31, 2017, 08:51:14 PM
The main challenge is that, in order to achieve continuous controlled nuclear fusion, we have to actually recreate conditions inside the Sun. That means building a machine that's capable of producing and controlling a 100-million-degree-Celsius (180 million degree Fahrenheit) ball of plasma gas - and then somehow extract the heat from the plasma.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on July 31, 2017, 09:05:18 PM
A 2012 paper demonstrated that a dense plasma focus had achieved temperatures of 1.8 billion degrees Celsius, sufficient for boron fusion, and that fusion reactions were occurring primarily within the contained plasmoid, a necessary condition for net power.
In October 2014, Lockheed Martin's Skunk Works announced the development of a high-beta fusion reactor that they hope to yield a functioning 100-megawatt prototype by 2017 and to be ready for regular operation by 2022.
In October 2015, researchers at the Max Planck Institute of Plasma Physics completed building the largest stellarator to date, named Wendelstein 7-X. On December 10, they successfully produced the first helium plasma, and on February 3, 2016 produced the device's first hydrogen plasma. With plasma discharges lasting up to 30 minutes, Wendelstein 7-X will try to demonstrate the essential stellarator attribute: continuous operation of a high-temperature hydrogen plasma.
So it is not that far off. Maybe not in my lifetime but not long after.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on July 31, 2017, 10:39:47 PM
More generally, on electric cars and autonomous cars, I think the boffins are getting ahead of themselves as witnessed by the Horizon programme on BBC4 this evening.

We have 30 million cars on UK roads, mostly ICE and ICE cars are still in production and will be for some time to come. I think I'm right in saying that the UK fleet adds and loses about 2 million vehicles a year so it'll take a long time for the current fleet of vehicles to be replaced even allowing for incentives etc. Added to which polling indicates that 50% of people don't want autonomous cars.

It will come but it's a long way down the track. I'm old enough to remember the paperless office and the claim that nuclear energy would be so cheap it wouldn't be worth sending out bills!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 01, 2017, 07:33:53 AM
I watched that programme last time it was on. Interesting even if tainted by usual BBC bias.
Up until a few weeks ago I was very sceptical about electric cars in general and particularly "Driverless" cars. I then watched a presentation on YouTube which made me stop and think. I then started researching what I had seen (one of the benefits of sitting at home most of the day) and began to see the possibilities. I am currently reading a book by the same guy who gave the original presentation, and it is very enlightening.
One thing to make clear though, there is a huge gulf between electric cars we were initially discussing here and autonomous vehicles. Electric cars are here, now, and will ultimately totally replace ICE powered vehicles. There will still be some ICE vehicles around, just as there are still a few Model T's going about, but eventually they will be in the hands of a few enthusiasts.
Autonomous vehicles are in the future, but with the take over of EV's (Electric Vehicles), or as I have seen them described, EEV's (Emissions Elsewhere Vehicles), autonomous vehicles will become even more of a likelihood.
So much of what we see about so called driverless cars, at the moment, are just driver assisted, which even the boffins and aficionados realise are dangerous. I get bored and inattentive on a quiet motorway using cruise control, never mind having the car steering and maintaining a gap for me too. When a driver has nothing to do but monitor the car, accidents will happen. If two pilots in an airliner, "monitoring", can fly an hour past their destination, what chance has the poor, inattentive driver got. After all, we make a hash of it when we are concentrating!
Here are the links, again, to what has changed my mind about autonomous vehicles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BWJcpesr6A&t=954s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BWJcpesr6A&t=954s)

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00WS1S4AM/ref=oh_aui_d_detailpage_o08_?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00WS1S4AM/ref=oh_aui_d_detailpage_o08_?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 01, 2017, 07:43:49 AM
Rolls Royce are skipping hybrids and going straight to full electric.

http://www.businessinsider.com/rolls-royce-to-skip-hybrids-and-go-straight-to-electric-cars-2017-7?IR=T (http://www.businessinsider.com/rolls-royce-to-skip-hybrids-and-go-straight-to-electric-cars-2017-7?IR=T)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 01, 2017, 08:35:22 AM
The danger of centralising your fuel supply is evident,  if the electric grid goes down no-one gets to work - and what happened in Canada a few years ago where a solar flare can put your whole electrical system out of action for a long time may get more common if the sun gets 'angrier'.  If we had been reliant on electrified cars and trains in WW2 we would have lost the war very quickly, the Germans would have just bombed power stations (as any other enemy could today, including terrorists),  the whole country would have ground to a halt in a couple of weeks.  The only thing that kept UK going was the fact that fuel was de-centralised and easy to store,  steam trains ran on plentiful, easily available coal and road vehicles ran on  petrol which was scarce during the war but there was enough,  and it was so randomly stored that Jerry couldn't knock it all out with a couple of bombs.

I bet the military will never use EV (it is called putting all your eggs in one basket) it would make them too vulnerable to losing electrical power, and when you invade a country the first think that goes out is the electricity supply - and if you use big generators I guess they will be fossil powered,  as wind and solar farms stick out like a sore thumb and easily put out of action - also vehicles immobilised at charging stations would make easy pickings.   

Planes could not fly without fossil fuel,  the energy to weight ratio of fossil fuels makes powered flight possible on a commercial scale (there have been electric aircraft,  but they can just about carry themselves,  let alone any useful cargo or passengers). 

Fossil fuel will be around for a long time yet,  with new commercially viable sources being discovered regularly.

No car maker can afford not to be on the EV 'bandwagon'  and until a lot of the hype has died down and we can see the wood through the trees there will be claims and counterclaims of great innovations and progress, polls suggest that 50% of people don't want EV, Tesla has not made a cent in profit in 10 years, and the initial cost of EV and rapid depreciation make buying a new one out of the question for a lot of people,  and for cheap second hand ones to be available someone has to buy new and take a hit (or lease and take a hit)  at present time battery lease cost for a eg. a Nissan leaf is £70 per month and upwards some people don't even buy that much fuel a month,  to buy the battery is expensive and if it fails you pay to replace it I guess.

Chemicals and metals needed for batteries, magnets for motors, and conductors etc are trashing the environment big time,  so where is the gain for humanity.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 01, 2017, 10:13:22 AM
I know this thread was originally about "electric" cars but as we have also strayed into autonomous vehicles it is worth mentioning that autonomous vehicles do not need to be powered by electricity. It is quite feasible to have an autonomous vehicle powered by an internal combustion engine, or indeed by hybrid power. Modern commercial airliners are pretty much autonomous, or at least, can be, and they continue to burn hydrocarbons and will do for quite some time. I can see a time in the not too distant future when pilot-less aircraft will fly all over the world, still burning the fuel they do now.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: auntyneddy on August 01, 2017, 01:39:44 PM
Sent from Canada, about an article July 29th in the Daily Mail, I will try to get the link, it explains a lot but gives cause for concern. 
http://www (http://www),dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-4734028/Electric-cars-numbering-9m-need-powered-someview.html
Sorry if not a direct link as a I am computer illiterate but it is an interesting perspective.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 01, 2017, 04:27:56 PM
Sent from Canada, about an article July 29th in the Daily Mail, I will try to get the link, it explains a lot but gives cause for concern. 
http://www (http://www),dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-4734028/Electric-cars-numbering-9m-need-powered-someview.html
Sorry if not a direct link as a I am computer illiterate but it is an interesting perspective.

Found it by chopping bits out of your link,  it is what I said,  we are not ready with anywhere near enough generating capacity for EV,  wind turbines are a white elephant that has cost taxpayers loads of money for no return except to make controlling the grid a lot harder,  we have still not got any nuclear properly planned,  and as the article says new fossil fuel supplies are being found almost daily and oil is cheaper than it has been in a long time,  so it seems that if the answer is electric vehicles someone has asked the wrong question.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-4734028/Electric-cars-numbering-9m-need-powered-somehow.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-4734028/Electric-cars-numbering-9m-need-powered-somehow.html)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TG on August 01, 2017, 04:57:29 PM
.... Tesla has not made a cent in profit in 10 years,
As an investor I'm quite happy about that, this is the time for growth and investment.  If you put £5k of TSLA in your ISA or SIPP in 2013 it's now worth £50k, again quite happy about that. Mkt Cap is greater than Ford, GM and BMW.

Elon Musk "If something is important enough, even if the odds are against you, you should still do it."
--
TG
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on August 01, 2017, 05:01:54 PM
I live in an area subject to infrequent but lengthy blackouts (hours)

Anyone depending on electricity in cold weather in winter gets very cold. Anyone depending on electricity for transport is a muppet.

And when it does get cold, you can take all the theoretical sums on grid capacity and range and throw them in the bin...Ranges halve and demand doubles...  a recipe for more blackouts.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 01, 2017, 05:02:41 PM
I truly believe that electric cars will never become "big" during my lifetime. For a start, the UK doesn't have enough electricity capacity to charge huge fleets of electric vehicles. We are on the verge of brownouts now. And where do you charge them? Most motorists don't have off street parking near their house.
They just built a new hospital wing here in Kirkcaldy and put in charging bays in the car park. Two of them!
Tesla's Supercharger supposedly gives 80% charge in 45 minutes, but even Tesla takes overnight to charge from a home charger.
As I said right back at the beginning of the thread, the UK does not have the power generating or distribution capacity.
If you thought installing cable TV to our streets was a nightmare, can you imagine the problems installing charger points. Edinburgh city centre was brought to its knees while they did preparatory work for the trams. That sort of work would have to take place all over the country.
There will be a steady uptake of people who have the ability to charge their vehicles and as technology improves charging will become easier, but we still lack the power generating capacity. Some counties will manage the change.

I don't know about others here, but my life seems to be governed by battery charging at the moment. If it is not the laptop its my razor, toothbrush, Fitbit, tablet, phone, wife's phone or some of the many AA and AAA rechargeable batteries we have all round the house!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 01, 2017, 05:30:07 PM
.... Tesla has not made a cent in profit in 10 years,
As an investor I'm quite happy about that, this is the time for growth and investment.  If you put £5k of TSLA in your ISA or SIPP in 2013 it's now worth £50k, again quite happy about that. Mkt Cap is greater than Ford, GM and BMW.

Elon Musk "If something is important enough, even if the odds are against you, you should still do it."
--
TG

I remember the dot com boom,  where companies were over capitalised on 'future growth potential' and investors were firstly taken in,  and then taken to the cleaners.   A company that is over-capitalised has another name,  'a bubble'.   I wish Musk Well for sticking his neck out,  but there is grave concern whether his buying of solar city (which was started by members of his family, basically he has bailed his family out of debt and transferred their debts to the investors in Tesla motors pockets LOL) has put a millstone round his companies neck,  and also grave concern if Tesla can ever make enough cars at the right price to make a profit,  and pretty soon all the established vehicle makers will be moving in on the territory that he has had to himself up to now.

Tesla owners taking out a class action against the company due to its 'dangerous autopilot 2' system - which operates in an erratic and dangerous manner.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-04-20/tesla-tumbles-after-recalling-over-50000-cars-suvs (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-04-20/tesla-tumbles-after-recalling-over-50000-cars-suvs)

http://suremoneyinvestor.com/2016/06/heres-why-tesla-is-a-giant-ponzi-scheme/ (http://suremoneyinvestor.com/2016/06/heres-why-tesla-is-a-giant-ponzi-scheme/)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 02, 2017, 07:27:06 AM
I was directed to this excellent presentation. Well worth 40 minutes of anyone's time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eOFokM3lUI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eOFokM3lUI)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 02, 2017, 10:11:15 AM
I was directed to this excellent presentation. Well worth 40 minutes of anyone's time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eOFokM3lUI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eOFokM3lUI)

He is flying in the face of other scientists and statistics that have been available to date after 10+ years of NOT getting power from wind,  people talk about the 'amount of wind power installed' ie they just add up the total power of all installed turbines in the world and ignore the fact they are only 15 to 20% efficient.  Sure taller ones will get more wind but they are also harder to build,  take more resource and have more impact on birds and the local environment.  When these people talk about wind supplying 6% of power,  they are talking about installed capacity rather than what these things actually produce.  You could cover the whole land area of the planet with wind turbines and still not meet demand,  but the cost to the planet in energy (to make concrete and steel etc.) and resource would be immense.

There is also a growing body of opinion that solar panels actually add to climate change,  they are a very dark colour, are not very efficient - only converting a small fraction of the absorbed energy into electrical power and reflect / radiate the rest as heat (typically less than 10% , more efficient ones are available but at the moment prohibitively expensive ).   Also all energy ends up as heat (yes even the energy that runs your fridge) so any electricity produced by anything is going to end up as heat.

The bloke who coined the phrase 'there is no such thing as a free lunch' never dreamed that one day it would apply to electrical energy LOL.

The problem is that both wind and solar do not produce electricity continuously, solar does not produce much power in our winter (when we need it most) and as for wind, well it does not produce much anytime but still needs external electric supply to function.   Storage of power will involve chemically nasty batteries which take resource and power both to produce and dispose of / recycle.  This means that you still need to back up these power supplies with other more reliable sources,  so we come back to nuclear or fossil fuels (or geo-thermal heat pumps which means for every 1KW you put in you may get 4 KW back, but which still needs external power to run pumps etc.)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: auntyneddy on August 02, 2017, 11:24:19 AM
Going back to the late 60's early 70's my in laws had a small business in North Cornwall, a small farmer
customer used to come in a chat to pa in law.
Because his holding was not big enough to support him and his family, he had a job 'down west near Falmouth', where they were drilling into the granite. The object was thermal energy, ie using the heat of the rocks to heat water for steam.
I have no idea what happened to that, I do know they had reached the hot rocks. I am not aware if the scheme progressed
Apart from the mess of the drilling that surely is clean energy..
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on August 02, 2017, 01:51:40 PM
Going back to the late 60's early 70's my in laws had a small business in North Cornwall, a small farmer
customer used to come in a chat to pa in law.
Because his holding was not big enough to support him and his family, he had a job 'down west near Falmouth', where they were drilling into the granite. The object was thermal energy, ie using the heat of the rocks to heat water for steam.
I have no idea what happened to that, I do know they had reached the hot rocks. I am not aware if the scheme progressed
Apart from the mess of the drilling that surely is clean energy..
Geothermal energy is well established in some parts of the world but is only now arriving in Cornwall http://www.cornwalllive.com/geothermal-power-plant-could-be-built-near-redruth-in-cornish-energy-revolution/story-30404776-detail/story.html (http://www.cornwalllive.com/geothermal-power-plant-could-be-built-near-redruth-in-cornish-energy-revolution/story-30404776-detail/story.html). It was probably necessary for costs to come down to make it worthwhile using whatever the Cornish rock temperature is.

Tidal and wave energy are both relatively reliable sources but the UK hasn't yet put much effort in their utilisation.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: VicW on August 02, 2017, 02:35:05 PM
Remaining off topic but still about electricity consumption, allegedly the planet is getting warmer so the use and installation of home air conditioning is on the increase. Domestic aircon units consume electricity so will be a further drain on our already marginal supplies.

Vic.


Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 02, 2017, 02:36:33 PM
France built the worlds first tidal power station in 1966, but tidal power has been used since the Middle Ages.

The worlds first large tidal farm was launched in Scotland last September.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/sep/12/worlds-first-large-scale-tidal-energy-farm-launches-scotland (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/sep/12/worlds-first-large-scale-tidal-energy-farm-launches-scotland)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 02, 2017, 03:58:48 PM
http://www.cornwalllive.com/cornwall-could-be-on-the-verge-of-a-mining-revolution-as-vast-reserves-of-precious-lithium-found/story-30068912-detail/story.html (http://www.cornwalllive.com/cornwall-could-be-on-the-verge-of-a-mining-revolution-as-vast-reserves-of-precious-lithium-found/story-30068912-detail/story.html)

Apparently Cornwall is the only place in Europe with large deposits of Lithium.  Looks like we will be selling Lithium to the  EU.   Oh how sweet that is -  economists describe Lithium as 'white petroleum' - we could become the Saudi Arabia of Europe LOL
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 03, 2017, 07:16:29 AM
Tesla have just announced a huge jump in revenue for the three months to end of June, but losses have also increased. Still, the investors are happy with another jump in their share price.
I have decided that if I win the lottery it is a Tesla P100D for me. Only about £160K.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 03, 2017, 09:09:53 AM
Tesla have just announced a huge jump in revenue for the three months to end of June, but losses have also increased. Still, the investors are happy with another jump in their share price.
I have decided that if I win the lottery it is a Tesla P100D for me. Only about £160K.

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/tough-week-tesla-after-safety-downgrade-sinking-stocks-n780166 (http://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/tough-week-tesla-after-safety-downgrade-sinking-stocks-n780166)

Tesla also running into labour problems as they pay lowest wages and their plants have worker injury levels that are too high.  Their quality control has also (kindly I think) been described as 'patchy'.

Tesla could get even further into the mire if their proposed 'high speed' tunnel between New York and Washington goes ahead.

http://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/elon-musk-says-he-has-verbal-approval-his-latest-wild-n784906 (http://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/elon-musk-says-he-has-verbal-approval-his-latest-wild-n784906)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 03, 2017, 09:31:06 AM
I'd still go for one if money wasn't a problem.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on August 03, 2017, 02:06:37 PM
http://www.cornwalllive.com/cornwall-could-be-on-the-verge-of-a-mining-revolution-as-vast-reserves-of-precious-lithium-found/story-30068912-detail/story.html (http://www.cornwalllive.com/cornwall-could-be-on-the-verge-of-a-mining-revolution-as-vast-reserves-of-precious-lithium-found/story-30068912-detail/story.html)

Apparently Cornwall is the only place in Europe with large deposits of Lithium.  Looks like we will be selling Lithium to the  EU.   Oh how sweet that is -  economists describe Lithium as 'white petroleum' - we could become the Saudi Arabia of Europe LOL

Independence for Cornwall.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: auntyneddy on August 04, 2017, 02:40:59 PM
Being an old fart, the TV is more of a companion than perhaps it should be.
Last evening a program called 'How it's made'.
They did a bit on copper production. Depending where the deposits are controls the method of extracting the copper from the ore.
Well if ever there was a case for the anti pollution people there it was.
In one case they were pouring molten slag down the side of what started as a hill.
Given the proportion of copper in the ore can nobody come up with an alternative? Tis no wonder it is so costly.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 04, 2017, 03:37:14 PM
The amount of extra copper needed to replace all motor vehicles with electric ones would only be a drop in the ocean compared with the amount of copper that is currently used  for general wiring and current motor production. I spent a year as an Electrical Maintenance Supervisor with a company manufacturing cables. The amount of copper used is phenomenal, and at huge cost financially and environmentally.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 05, 2017, 03:27:31 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/26/treasury-tax-electric-cars-vat-fuel-duty (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/26/treasury-tax-electric-cars-vat-fuel-duty)

We just knew it would happen, we all get extra 15% VAT on our bills because people can charge their cars at home and government wants to make up its revenue losses from fuel duty and VED.

This is on top of recently proposed £150 a year levy on electricity bills to pay for unreliable and expensive 'renewables'.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on August 05, 2017, 04:33:36 PM
That Guardian article is semi factual but an increase in domestic energy VAT is just a subsidy to motorists.

The easiest solution is:
cut fuel taxes.
Increase VED by the equivalent value for all vehicles.
Increase VED for electric cars...

And the  raise fuel taxes again... :'(
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Garyman on August 05, 2017, 06:45:03 PM
Apologies I haven't read the entire thread but I have a great interest in EV, especially Tesla.

However, they are way out of my budget but I would buy one tomorrow if I could.

Sent from my F8331 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 05, 2017, 09:03:44 PM
Apologies I haven't read the entire thread but I have a great interest in EV, especially Tesla.

However, they are way out of my budget but I would buy one tomorrow if I could.

Sent from my F8331 using Tapatalk
Me too. I have gone from a sceptic to a believer just in the past few weeks. If I won the lottery I'd have a Tesla P100D at the drop of a hat.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on August 06, 2017, 11:33:46 AM
Me too. I've driven an electric car - a Nissan Leaf belonging to a friend and I'm a convert. Not currently in the market for a change though having had my current car just over 18 months.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 07, 2017, 09:21:20 PM
How is this for an electric car. A Porsche 911 Targa.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJLdzRJdKrs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJLdzRJdKrs)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 09, 2017, 10:15:53 AM
The more I read up on electric cars, and the more I see of them on YouTube (Robert Llewellyn's "Fully Charged is a good watch), the more enthused I get about them. Technology is racing on, pretty much following Moore's Law, and battery capacity and charging rates seem to be following the same exponential path. I think the EV and AV disciples might be on to something.
I don't think it just a random choice that has seen Softbank investing heavily in ride hailing companies.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on August 09, 2017, 11:18:31 AM
I'm pretty much the same Jocko. The technology fascinates me and, if I'm being honest, it probably trumps environmental or cost issues. There are also some interesting issues around smart grids - in Berlin engineers are looking at cars being used as battery storage and actually feeding back into the smart grid at times of high demand and taking a charge at low periods of demand.

All this is in its infancy but it will be interesting to see it develop. The ban on petrol and diesel by 2040 is also interesting because it enables the government to look as if they are doing something about air quality but the change will happen organically. There will be few ICE cars left in 23 years anyway.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 09, 2017, 03:54:56 PM
I'm pretty much the same Jocko. The technology fascinates me and, if I'm being honest, it probably trumps environmental or cost issues. There are also some interesting issues around smart grids - in Berlin engineers are looking at cars being used as battery storage and actually feeding back into the smart grid at times of high demand and taking a charge at low periods of demand.

All this is in its infancy but it will be interesting to see it develop. The ban on petrol and diesel by 2040 is also interesting because it enables the government to look as if they are doing something about air quality but the change will happen organically. There will be few ICE cars left in 23 years anyway.

The ban on petrol and diesel will only cover vehicles when the only source of propulsion is the ICE engine,  which lets out  PHEV and hybrids

Interesting about using EV batteries to top up the grid - I have seen this idea described in some articles as a 'non-starter' ,  which is just what will happen to your EV when the grid just nicked all the power out of your EV and you need to use it urgently.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 09, 2017, 04:21:14 PM
The way that solar cell technology is improving exponentially, and the prices dropping, I can see a time, very soon, when almost every house will have their own solar array. At the moment it will cost about £6000 to install, a drop in the ocean compared to the price of a new house (it may even become a requirement of getting planning permission). At present that will give 3 kW. Not a great deal, but as energy output from the cells increases, and prices and physical area required continue to fall, it will not be long before we can get 10 kW for that price. Add to that a battery Powerwall (about another £8000) and you are talking about serious Green electricity.
Battery Powerwalls are a great use for traction batteries which are past their best. Companies will buy used traction batteries, rent them out for storage use, then as they deteriorate further, swap them out and recycle them.
(As a child we had no electricity, so my dad used to rent an "accumulator" to power the radio. When it went flat he would return it to the local electrician and bring home a fresh charged one.)
So I am very positive and optimistic about the future of Electric Vehicles.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on August 09, 2017, 05:05:21 PM
Another development, and possibly why Toyota are late entrants to the pure EV scene having pioneered hybrids, is the solid state battery which, I gather, is a step change from the current crop of lithium ion batteries.

On a side issue I've been reading a bit about Dieter Helm, an economist who is to head up the Government's review into energy pricing. I'd read that some environmentalists were disturbed by his appointment. Turns out that he is a critic of the current crop of renewables and feels we need a bridge in the form of gas so that coal fired power stations can finally be scrapped. He is, however, convinced that fossil fuels are history and will be replaced by much more effective renewables and nuclear in the future. Some new developments in solar using graphene are showing promising results.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 11, 2017, 08:03:32 AM
Norway has reached 42% of new car sales being electric, with 27% of new car sales being pure EV. Seemingly, with the Norwegian tax penalties against ICE vehicles, it is almost as cheap to buy a Tesla Model X as it is a Ford Focus!
It just shows what a committed government can achieve.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 11, 2017, 09:34:25 AM
Norway has reached 42% of new car sales being electric, with 27% of new car sales being pure EV. Seemingly, with the Norwegian tax penalties against ICE vehicles, it is almost as cheap to buy a Tesla Model X as it is a Ford Focus!
It just shows what a committed government can achieve.

Yeah,  like giving huge tax breaks to EV and skewing the market,  but whenever you give tax breaks to some you are subsidising them at the cost of your tax base,   good job Norway is a rich country that gets lots of money selling oil and gas to others and can afford this kind of stuff.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/rrapier/2017/07/12/norways-oil-consumption-rises-despite-42-electric-vehicle-share/#80512687152b (https://www.forbes.com/sites/rrapier/2017/07/12/norways-oil-consumption-rises-despite-42-electric-vehicle-share/#80512687152b)

German car industry (which in Germany is more powerful than the government) is kicking back against targets for EV imposed from EU

https://global.handelsblatt.com/companies-markets/eu-gives-carmakers-electric-shock-808258?ref=NzgzMjI2&utm_source=outbrain&utm_medium=contentmarketing&utm_campaign=outbrain-UK&utm_content=EU%20Gives%20Carmakers%20Electric%20Shock&utm_term=001ec45c75908e7daa98d89e242e05ac99 (https://global.handelsblatt.com/companies-markets/eu-gives-carmakers-electric-shock-808258?ref=NzgzMjI2&utm_source=outbrain&utm_medium=contentmarketing&utm_campaign=outbrain-UK&utm_content=EU%20Gives%20Carmakers%20Electric%20Shock&utm_term=001ec45c75908e7daa98d89e242e05ac99)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 11, 2017, 09:51:26 AM
Just as our government skewed the sales of diesel engined cars here, for a number of years, by reducing the cost of the  fuel. And now they are trying to go the other way with changed to VED.
It's what governments do.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TG on August 11, 2017, 11:57:17 AM
Interesting article in this month's Economist* (https://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21726071-it-had-good-run-end-sight-machine-changed-world-death) on EVs, the grid & the future of oil.   One aspect I'd overlooked is the probable continuing drop in the price of oil as untapped reserves will need to be pumped /refined / sold pretty rapidly leading to wholesale price falls.  Nobody wants to be left with unsold worthless reserves in the ground, but the flip side is that we may accelerate the rate at which it's burnt.
--
TG

* Open in a private tab if you reach your reading limit.
Electric cars: The death of the internal combustion engine. It had a good run. But the end is in sight for the machine that changed the world (https://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21726071-it-had-good-run-end-sight-machine-changed-world-death)
Also: After electric cars, what more will it take for batteries to change the face of energy? (https://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21726069-no-need-subsidies-higher-volumes-and-better-chemistry-are-causing-costs-plummet-after)
(https://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/640-width/images/print-edition/20170812_FBC444_0.png)(https://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/640-width/images/print-edition/20170812_FBC859_0.png)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 11, 2017, 02:30:14 PM
Just as our government skewed the sales of diesel engined cars here, for a number of years, by reducing the cost of the  fuel. And now they are trying to go the other way with changed to VED.
It's what governments do.

If you start from the premise that governments have zero technical knowledge (after all they are mostly lawyers or accountants) but are advised by people with firmly vested interests all the stupidity (diesel cars,  wind turbines, HS2 etc.) begins to make sense.

As for the limelight seeking self-promoting Elon Musk ................https://www.forbes.com/sites/rodadams/2017/07/07/megahype-over-tesla-battery-capable-of-providing-nameplate-power-for-less-than-80-minutes/#4aed6edf4919 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/rodadams/2017/07/07/megahype-over-tesla-battery-capable-of-providing-nameplate-power-for-less-than-80-minutes/#4aed6edf4919)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 11, 2017, 02:54:19 PM
Interesting article in this month's Economist* (https://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21726071-it-had-good-run-end-sight-machine-changed-world-death) on EVs, the grid & the future of oil.   One aspect I'd overlooked is the probable continuing drop in the price of oil as untapped reserves will need to be pumped /refined / sold pretty rapidly leading to wholesale price falls.  Nobody wants to be left with unsold worthless reserves in the ground, but the flip side is that we may accelerate the rate at which it's burnt.
--
TG

* Open in a private tab if you reach your reading limit.
Electric cars: The death of the internal combustion engine. It had a good run. But the end is in sight for the machine that changed the world (https://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21726071-it-had-good-run-end-sight-machine-changed-world-death)
Also: After electric cars, what more will it take for batteries to change the face of energy? (https://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21726069-no-need-subsidies-higher-volumes-and-better-chemistry-are-causing-costs-plummet-after)
(https://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/640-width/images/print-edition/20170812_FBC444_0.png)(https://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/640-width/images/print-edition/20170812_FBC859_0.png)

Oil is going nowhere anytime soon, as Mark Twain said in London after newspapers in USA printed stories that he had died,  "reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated".

The 2040 deadline on Diesel and petrol cars does not include hybrid and PHEV vehicles,  so many people will be buying a hybrid to cash in on the low cost of hydrocarbon fuel,  and wave to the people queuing  at recharging stations as they sail past,  No-one has decided who is going to pay for and install EV charging points,  but whoever it is they will not be doing it for nothing and will want to make a profit.

Many new housing estates are being built without car parking attached to the houses, so people park in the street,  so where are they going to charge their cars,  the problems are worst in city or suburban areas,  which logically should be the home of the EV.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilwinton/2017/05/19/long-distance-electric-car-charging-problems-will-boost-plug-in-hybrids/#32fe90315f39 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilwinton/2017/05/19/long-distance-electric-car-charging-problems-will-boost-plug-in-hybrids/#32fe90315f39)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on August 11, 2017, 03:01:04 PM
I agree we will continue to need an oil industry for some time into the future - aviation fuel and heavy oil for shipping are just two areas where a non oil substitute isn't readily to hand. It is also used to manufacture plastics etc etc.

But one day it will run out and we are already now in the business of using reserves that are harder to recover. It makes sense, to me anyway, to start replacing it where we can and EVs are one way of doing that.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 11, 2017, 03:56:57 PM
I agree we will continue to need an oil industry for some time into the future - aviation fuel and heavy oil for shipping are just two areas where a non oil substitute isn't readily to hand. It is also used to manufacture plastics etc etc.

But one day it will run out and we are already now in the business of using reserves that are harder to recover. It makes sense, to me anyway, to start replacing it where we can and EVs are one way of doing that.

Fuel for vehicles is only the tip of the iceberg of what we get from oil, it touches every part of our lives with plastics and other derivatives and basically a lot of things that cannot be replaced by other resources.  There is plenty of oil left, so we will continue to extract oil and the price of fuel will drop which (unless governments poke their noses in with massive subsidies) will mean that other fuels will be costly by comparison,  renewables have been responsible for a lot of the increase we have seen in industrial and domestic power over the past few decades, because governments subsidised them to make them competitive - and when a government subsidises things it costs taxpayers and consumers money (the sad fact is that governments don't have any money,  but they have the law on their side so taking it from those who do have money that they work hard for is easy for them).

and here is a shock for people who think it is only older people who may not want an  EV

https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnkoetsier/2017/04/17/surprise-70-of-millenials-do-not-want-electric-vehicles/#95483f03f66b (https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnkoetsier/2017/04/17/surprise-70-of-millenials-do-not-want-electric-vehicles/#95483f03f66b)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 11, 2017, 04:11:16 PM
According to Justin Laney, the Commercial Vehicle Fleet Manager for John Lewis Partnership, talking at this year's nationalgrid Future Energy Scenarios, Bio-methane is the way that haulage fleets are looking to go, in the near future.
Off street parking is definitely an issue, regarding the charging of electric vehicles. I can see a time, fairly soon, where people do not own there own car. They just call up one as they need it. Driverless cars will go out of town to a charging station and charge up as required. Those people who do want/need to own their own car will charge them at rapid charging stations, possibly using inductive charging, as the prototype Rolls Royce electric car currently uses. With large capacity storage, and rapid charging, a car would be charged to 80% in little more time than it takes to fill up with petrol. Supermarkets would offer cheap charging, in their car parks, to customers. At present, petrol stations are a draw to get people to shop at a store. Charging points will be the new petrol station.
Norway has huge areas for parking and charging EV's, with free public parking for EV's, and car parks, in the likes of Oslo, that provide FREE charging.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 11, 2017, 04:47:03 PM
Norway has huge areas for parking and charging EV's, with free public parking for EV's, and car parks, in the likes of Oslo, that provide FREE charging.

You really cannot extrapolate anything from what mega rich social democrat Norway is doing,  most of its electricity comes from Hydro and most of its money comes from oil and gas.  The true test will be when EV users have to queue at charging stations to pay market rates for their 'fuel' - not when the government gives the infrastructure and fuel to them free to prove some kind of political points. And apart from Teslas (which is a status thing really lets face it) other EV are not selling well.

As the link in my last post shows, 70% of all age groups from millennials through to 80 year olds have no interest in EV (except some younger ones would want a Tesla for its street-cred value).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: olduser1 on August 11, 2017, 08:04:09 PM
I dont get all the fuss inside the earth there is no way enough cobalt for the UK let alone the continent for future EV batteries. The future is bright around here e vehicvles travel on rails & have done since 1860, self drive vehicles are buses. On the UK road small  turbo charged petrol engines can deliver some enjoyment, as for myself  my Subaru Turbo takes some beating
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 11, 2017, 08:38:31 PM
As an ex bus driver, and a bus pass holder, I am a great fan of buses. The only problem is they never pick you up where you are and never get exactly where you want to go! That's why, if we can afford it, we drive cars. One of the scenarios I read, regarding driverless cars, suggested that free driverless transport could be laid on, for the money the government/councils currently pay in subsidies to the likes of Stagecoach and First Bus!
Cobalt currently comes as a byproduct of copper and nickel mining, and as the price of these metals is dropping so too is the mining. However, as the value of cobalt goes through the roof then mining for cobalt as a principal metal will become viable and they will mine it whether other metals are there or not. And who's to say that technology may be about to come up with cobalt free batteries.
I may be an old fart but I have boundless optimism regarding technology. I remember when CD's were the future! 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on August 11, 2017, 10:49:56 PM
The reality is that nobody can predict the future with any accuracy and certainly not the pace of technological change and innovation. The idea, though, that we continue to use a 19th century technology like the ICE for the rest of time is for the birds.

The ICE is dead and we will get used to it in time.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 12, 2017, 09:34:34 AM
The ICE is dead and we will get used to it in time.

I bet the military will not be in a rush to 'go electric' for tactical vehicles,  sure they are buying them for their desk jockeys to run around in peacetime,  but that is only to meet government 'carbon and alternative fuel targets' - not because they want to.   Nothing up to now can meet the energy density of hydrocarbon fuel,  and it can easily be stockpiled in diverse locations - just what they want,  they do not want to be reliant on a centralised fuel supply, and they certainly won't be building wind turbine farms and solar arrays,  or maybe a temporary Hydro scheme on their front line bases.

Anyway we will still be refining crude to meet the demand for all the other stuff we get from it (paint, plastic, clothes, food, medicines etc. etc.  http://www.ranken-energy.com/Products%20from%20Petroleum.htm (http://www.ranken-energy.com/Products%20from%20Petroleum.htm) )  even the tarmac we drive our cars on obtained from oil, and crude contains an awful lot of petrol and other fuel oils,  so what are we going to do with these new 'byproducts' - dump them in landfills. 

Various studies have shown the large majority of people have no wish to have an electric vehicle, sure improved battery technology may make a dent in that figure,  but after 2040 PHEV and petrol-hybrids will still be built - I doubt we will see 'the disappearance of the ICE engine' in the lifetime of anyone who is alive today (even if they are only 1 year old).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on August 12, 2017, 11:46:23 AM
Are you sure that's right? I thought anything with an ICE would be banned from 2040 and that includes hybrids. Of course there will still be ICE vehicles around because the ban only applies to new sales.

I suspect most people, including the car manufacturers, will have woken up and smelled the coffee long before 2040. It's why it's actually quite uncontroversial - the change will happen organically and I am willing to bet few ICE cars will be bought from, say, 2030.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 12, 2017, 12:03:20 PM
Are you sure that's right? I thought anything with an ICE would be banned from 2040 and that includes hybrids. Of course there will still be ICE vehicles around because the ban only applies to new sales.

I suspect most people, including the car manufacturers, will have woken up and smelled the coffee long before 2040. It's why it's actually quite uncontroversial - the change will happen organically and I am willing to bet few ICE cars will be bought from, say, 2030.

Yes it is correct only vehicles whos only means of propulsion is petrol or diesel will be banned.  But the supply side for all that electricity has not been sorted yet.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/25/new-diesel-petrol-cars-banned-uk-roads-2040-government-unveils/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/25/new-diesel-petrol-cars-banned-uk-roads-2040-government-unveils/)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on August 12, 2017, 02:11:06 PM
Thanks for the link - I'd misunderstood the precise terms of the ban.

On a related topic just read an article in the finance pages of the Guardian where a reader wonders about scrapping his 12 year old diesel Mercedes Estate. A number of replies point out the inherent environmental issues in changing your car too often. I'm sometimes amused by electric car drivers who are on 2 year PCP deals and are already on their 3rd Nissan Leaf. I wonder if they have seen past the low emissions part of the equation and taken into account that buying a new car every 2 years is the exact opposite of being environmentally friendly.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 12, 2017, 02:16:03 PM
From 2050 the UK government says that only full EV's can be sold. 2040 allows hybrids.

The military will NEVER use electric vehicles. A nuclear detonation (even tactical), causes a huge EMP which will fry all electrical systems bar for the very hardest (military spec radios etc). No way they will want any military vehicles other than diesel power, by my way of thinking.
As for the motorist in the street. I think his car, fried, will be the least of his worries!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 12, 2017, 02:40:15 PM
I'm sometimes amused by electric car drivers who are on 2 year PCP deals and are already on their 3rd Nissan Leaf. I wonder if they have seen past the low emissions part of the equation and taken into account that buying a new car every 2 years is the exact opposite of being environmentally friendly.

Well at the moment EV tech is changing so quickly that people are anxious to get the 'latest' (just like Apple bringing out a new i-Phone regularly,  the electric car has become the car equivalent of the i-phone LOL), also it makes some kind of sense to lease or PCP an EV because they depreciate faster than a snowball in the Sahara,  but that depreciation must be reflected in the residual value of the PCP or lease and many people find they have to roll over and get another one because the balloon payment is too large.   There is a big difference between being trendy and being 'green'.  As I have said before a lot of people probably get a Tesla because of its novelty value and badge appeal' rather than anything to do with wanting to save the planet (or they may have been hypnotised by Elon Musk).

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 12, 2017, 02:54:24 PM
I fancy an electric car but green issues are not even in my mind. Hell, I don't even recycle.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TG on August 12, 2017, 03:21:08 PM
Whilst stuck behind a 20 year old Land Rover belching fumes for over an hour, with the fan off, vents closed and the windows steaming up I was hoping for emissions controls to be rapidly tightened up, but when it forded the flood when we had to use the other side's pavement he was vindicated.  Not sure how happy I would have been to drive an EV into the floodwater....  refer to the handbook first I think.

Jocko hits the nail on the head - driverless EVs are ownerless cars.  Even today if Honda could provide me with a Jazz around the city, an Accord for the journey down the A1, and a CR-V for the camping trip I would be very happy (at the right price).  As it stands the Jazz is ideal around town, not comfortable enough on a 4 hour motorway, and wasting money going nowhere in a central London parking structure for half the month.

The shift in personal transportation from a capital outlay, to a brokered service is where the natural home of an EV lies.
- - -
In the ExxonMobil staff magazine earlier this year I was surprised to read that 90% of US oil consumption is on the roads; the other products either refined (butane, propane) or derived from the base elements are really ways of disposing of what might otherwise become a waste issue.  In what was a quite bullish article, the undertones were really quite grim reading for their long term future - they seem to be pinning their hopes on gas.
--
TG
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 12, 2017, 04:16:10 PM
going nowhere in a central London parking structure for half the month.
Seemingly the average private car is parked somewhere for 96% of its life. For something that is, for most people, their second biggest purchase, this is a terrible waste of capital.
I have a mate who doesn't own a car. If he needs one he hires one. He never has to worry about maintenance and repairs, MOT's or tax and insurance. He always has a new, clean car, no worries, and money in his pocket.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 12, 2017, 05:02:30 PM
Most people's washing machine is only used a few hours a week,  but they still buy one rather than going to a laundrette,  people spend 10grand on a pushbike that hardly gets used, despite the fact there are plenty of bike hire places around, likewise people spend up to 20 grand on a motorbike that only gets used occasionally in summer.  Ownership is hard wired into our psyche - we want possessions, we don't like sharing however much financial sense it makes.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on August 12, 2017, 05:24:35 PM
Most people's washing machine is only used a few hours a week,  but they still buy one rather than going to a laundrette,  people spend 10grand on a pushbike that hardly gets used, despite the fact there are plenty of bike hire places around, likewise people spend up to 20 grand on a motorbike that only gets used occasionally in summer.  Ownership is hard wired into our psyche - we want possessions, we don't like sharing however much financial sense it makes.

I think there's a lot in that. Even people, like my daughter, who has a car on a straight lease (not PCP) refers to it as "her" car - she even gets it washed! It will take quite a big psychological adjustment to move away from that mode of thought. I'm not saying it couldn't or wouldn't happen but we are a long way off.

Saying that TG makes some interesting points as well. I have a former colleague who lives in Fulham, terraced house, no drive or any other off road parking. He gave up his car some time ago using the tube and taxis for the most part and occasionally hiring a car for certain journeys but that's London with an overcrowded but generally fairly reliable public transport system. That model wouldn't work out in the sticks or even many small towns.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 12, 2017, 07:30:47 PM
MIT review of driverless cars,  not very encouraging..............
my favourite quote is 'the hype has got totally out of synch with the reality'

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/602210/prepare-to-be-underwhelmed-by-2021s-autonomous-cars/ (https://www.technologyreview.com/s/602210/prepare-to-be-underwhelmed-by-2021s-autonomous-cars/)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 12, 2017, 08:01:23 PM
The batteries won't last, the infrastructure won't cope, the technology isn't good enough, far too expensive, the people won't want them. These are all comments made about mobile phones.
That MIT review was written a year ago, and since then they have already come up with a solution for seeing in rain.
As for the Tesla that killed its driver by not seeing the truck. It did not have LIDAR. LIDAR would have seen the truck. Tesla still does not use LIDAR. It was expensive and spoils the look of the vehicle. However, LIDAR is now available in a small cheap form and people won't bother if their "taxi" has an ugly lump on the roof.
With regard to only working in a small area, the centre of most cities is a small area, and that is the stomping ground of Uber and Lyft at the moment.
Personally, I think that the technology will be engineered to fit the situation. It is the will of government that will be the stumbling block.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 12, 2017, 08:43:37 PM
Found this fascinating video tonight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKaEhBjt1ls (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKaEhBjt1ls)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on August 12, 2017, 10:05:02 PM
The battery thing is interesting. There is a taxi firm in Cornwall that runs several Leafs. The oldest one was retired having lost 2 bars in 170,000 miles and 4 years so it had 80% left.

In the USA, however, especially in hot states, batteries have been losing capacity much quicker. They seem much more suited to temperate climates.

When I've looked at Nissan Leafs for sale in the UK it is rare to see any significant degradation even in the older cars.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on August 14, 2017, 05:37:21 PM
According to Justin Laney, the Commercial Vehicle Fleet Manager for John Lewis Partnership, talking at this year's nationalgrid Future Energy Scenarios, Bio-methane is the way that haulage fleets are looking to go, in the near future.
Off street parking is definitely an issue, regarding the charging of electric vehicles. I can see a time, fairly soon, where people do not own there own car. They just call up one as they need it. Driverless cars will go out of town to a charging station and charge up as required. Those people who do want/need to own their own car will charge them at rapid charging stations, possibly using inductive charging, as the prototype Rolls Royce electric car currently uses. With large capacity storage, and rapid charging, a car would be charged to 80% in little more time than it takes to fill up with petrol. Supermarkets would offer cheap charging, in their car parks, to customers. At present, petrol stations are a draw to get people to shop at a store. Charging points will be the new petrol station.
Norway has huge areas for parking and charging EV's, with free public parking for EV's, and car parks, in the likes of Oslo, that provide FREE charging.

Pity driverless cars don't work in snow as road signs and markings are invisible to sensors... Strangely enough, no-one mentions that.....
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 14, 2017, 05:42:15 PM
Here's another interesting speaker.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b3ttqYDwF0&t=291s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b3ttqYDwF0&t=291s)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 14, 2017, 05:48:25 PM
Pity driverless cars don't work in snow as road signs and markings are invisible to sensors... Strangely enough, no-one mentions that.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vShi-xx6ze8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vShi-xx6ze8)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TG on August 14, 2017, 06:38:18 PM
Pity driverless cars don't work in snow as road signs and markings are invisible to sensors... Strangely enough, no-one mentions that.....
Prompts the question, does a car need vision to read a road sign? 

V2X protocol suggests not, simple passive induction loops allow signs and road features to be read via radio.  Kerbs, verges & cones even today are easy to detect in mixed conditions, problems could occur on temporary multi-lane surfaces such as the construction of a new intersection on say the A1 or North Circular.  Markings might be misleading, maybe future contractors will have to lay guide tapes or maybe up to date geometry is passed to the vehicle on approach.  We have to think wider than just imagining a robotic driver with our existing infrastructure.

i.e. Passive road data beacons in every lamppost could easily prevent vehicles exceeding the 20mph residential limits, although the car's navigation systems should also be aware of that.
--
TG
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 14, 2017, 07:17:11 PM
I'm really looking forward to driver less cars,  will make pulling out of junctions and getting onto islands a cinch for human controlled cars,  just pull out,  the auto car will have to stop, if you are a pedestrian just cross the road anywhere you want as the car will have to stop. The real problem is that driver less cars cannot be programmed to do anything illegal, so can they cross a double white line to pass a slow vehicle ?  Us humans are very good at making use of road space as well,  when I was in Indonesia a three lane road could easily carry five lanes of traffic and very few if any bumps,  different countries all have different driving styles to be catered for, an AI nightmare. 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 14, 2017, 07:23:50 PM
Googles system depend on the area being mapped to within 5mm, and this information is known by the vehicles. If a vehicle comes on a situation it does not understand they will safely park and call a remote operator (hopefully not in a call centre in India), who will be able to control the car remotely (the military do that with drones over Iraq just now).
I would imagine that in the areas that driverless vehicles are operating there will have to be a protocol for "Off road" diversions. Their LiDAR will cope with temporary traffic lights, contraflows and the like. Getting them to drive off their mapped world will not work.
And once one driverless car has been navigated through the problem, the information will be immediately  downloaded to all the other vehicles in the fleet. Just like taxi's currently do for a speed trap or an accident.
The different driving cultures is what makes the difference between a Level 4 and a Level 5 autonomous vehicle. Level 4 can work in one defined area. A Level 5 in any area. Level 5 will be a number of years behind Level 4.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: VicW on August 14, 2017, 07:37:33 PM
If autonomous cars rely in whole or in part on road markings then they will not work in Lincolnshire. Here, as well as not repairing pot holes largely caused by lack of maintenance over many years and letting utility companies get away with murder when they dig the roads up the other 'saving' locally is not to renew white line road markings.
The only time white lines get renewed is after the highways department has covered them three inches of chippings to renew the road surface.

Vic.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 14, 2017, 07:43:06 PM
The lane assist of current cars requires the vehicle to detect the lane markings but autonomous cars do't appear to need them.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 16, 2017, 07:01:42 PM
Found this interesting production from National Grid (8th August 2017) clarifying statements in the press regards charging of EV' s come 2040.
http://fes.nationalgrid.com/media/1264/ev-myth-buster-v032.pdf (http://fes.nationalgrid.com/media/1264/ev-myth-buster-v032.pdf)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on August 16, 2017, 08:54:15 PM
Does anyone else feel that the rush to EVs is backing the wrong horse ? Pure EVs require a huge investment in charging infrastructure both public and private. And even if we can manage a step-change in battery technology and provide roadside charging points every 5m along every residential street, charging your EV is not going to be as convenient as today's procedure of simply pulling into a filling station for a few minutes.

So why not invest in hydrogen filling stations instead of all the chargers ? Cars will use the H2 in fuel cells to drive electric motors so they'll still be emission-free on the roads, and refuelling them will be just as convenient as today's filling stations. Any peak-load issues for National Grid (if they exist) can be resolved by using the power stations to drive electrolysers in exactly the same way that fuel refineries are now. H2 is even piped into everybody's homes in the form of water, you could conceive of having a home electrolyser in the garage if you really want. Yes, H2 can be dangerous but so is petrol; the Wikipedia article on the Hindenburg disaster (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindenburg_disaster (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindenburg_disaster)) suggests that "Hydrogen fires are notable for being less destructive to immediate surroundings than gasoline explosions because of the buoyancy of H2, which causes heat of combustion to be released upwards more than circumferentially as the leaked mass ascends in the atmosphere; hydrogen fires are more survivable than fires of gasoline or wood".

So why not spend the money on a hydrogen infrastructure rather than electric chargers ? Perhaps the hidden agenda behind the rush to EVs is to reduce congestion (as opposed to emissions) by making vehicles less convenient to use, and thereby reduce the overall number.

Just thinking ...
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 16, 2017, 09:44:13 PM
I think it comes down purely to economics. An electric car requires virtually no maintenance, with electric motors currently good for 500,000 miles. A hydrogen powered ICE car will be just as maintenance intensive as current cars. Hydrogen electrolysers are extremely expensive and very inefficient. It is cheaper to extract hydrogen from hydrocarbons.
Recharging EV's is getting faster as technology advances. It may never get as quick as filling your tank at a garage, but if you can do your supermarket shop while your car gets a full charge in the car park that will suit most people who cannot charge there cars at home. And as range increases so you will need to recharge much less often. The new Tesla Model 3 will do 310 miles between charges. For me that is about once a fortnight. The Tesla can charge at 170 miles in half an hour.
As I said, it will be purely economics. If EV's don't make economic sense they won't take off as promised. If hydrogen fuelled cars make the best economic sense then they will be the norm. Joe public votes with their wallet. Whatever happens it will be interesting times.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on August 16, 2017, 11:24:23 PM
A hydrogen powered ICE car will be just as maintenance intensive as current cars.
I wasn't thinking of burning H2 in an ICE - as you say, that'd be the worst of both worlds - but rather using it in a fuel cell to generate electricity. Like in the Honda Clarity Fuel Cell:
http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-reviews/honda/honda-clarity-fuel-cell-2017-review/ (http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-reviews/honda/honda-clarity-fuel-cell-2017-review/)
So you get an electric car with a 400 mile range that can be refuelled in a few minutes at a conventional filling station (albeit one dispensing H2 rather than petrol).

... if you can do your supermarket shop while your car gets a full charge in the car park ...
Call me cynical, but I really don't think that's going to happen reliably. Every supermarket parking space in the country with charging points ? And there'll be one available when I really, REALLY, need it ? Wouldn't it be more sensible if, instead of putting in all those charging points, the supermarket replaced some of it's petrol pumps with H2 dispensers ?

Joe public votes with their wallet.
True, up to a point. For the many people (self included) who live in streets of terraced houses with no chance of charging at home, pure EVs are seriously bad news. I would welcome having the option of easier fuelling with hydrogen, and if I have to pay a bit more for that privilege then so be it ... because the alternative would be having no vehicle at all.

And as for the economics, yes, you're right, it's currently not very attractive for a variety of reasons. There needs to be lots of investment in the infrastructure and the vehicles to bring the costs down. So all I'm suggesting is that that seems a more sensible thing to invest in than putting hundreds of thousands (millions ??) of charging points all over the country.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 17, 2017, 07:05:06 AM
Using Hydrogen in fuel cells to drive an electric car would be a much more efficient way of using the hydrogen than ICE. Honda's idea of a BEV that gives a choice of battery or hydrogen at the touch of a control sounds a good idea. Doing the sums it looks like the H2 would work out about the same price as petrol giving 30 mpg, but I would imaging that with increase in scale, the rise of cheap solar electricity and technology advancements, that would improve.
The only fly in the ointment is the date Honda hope to be selling the vehicles. 2022. I think by then they will pretty much have missed the bandwagon for mass uptake.
Regarding supermarket car parks. If Asda don't have as many charger points as Morrisons the shoppers will make their choice, which will force the adoption by the big supermarkets.
Here in Kirkcaldy, Tesco didn't have a dedicated car park, depending on a nearby, small council car park. Despite it being a large store it was forced to close, because their rivals all had dedicated parking. Similar will happen with charger points.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 17, 2017, 08:21:43 AM
https://www.greenoptimistic.com/hydrogen-cars-efficiency/#.WZVFYprWSUk (https://www.greenoptimistic.com/hydrogen-cars-efficiency/#.WZVFYprWSUk)

Production, compression and transport of hydrogen is very energy intensive,  batteries much more efficient.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinB on August 17, 2017, 09:09:58 AM
https://www.greenoptimistic.com/hydrogen-cars-efficiency/#.WZVFYprWSUk (https://www.greenoptimistic.com/hydrogen-cars-efficiency/#.WZVFYprWSUk)

Production, compression and transport of hydrogen is very energy intensive,  batteries much more efficient.
Thanks for that insight, some good points there and maybe they help to answer my question about "Why not H2 ?". But the underlying assumptions in any "EVs are better" argument are firstly that batteries are going to become much better at storing energy safely, and secondly everyone is going to have access to charging facilities when they want/need it. The jury's out on the first point, and fixing the second issue will require absolutely massive infrastructure investment (and I've not seen any suggestions about who's going to pay for that). I just don't see it happening, which is why maybe H2 has a place even with it's inefficiencies.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 17, 2017, 11:26:42 AM
As solar panels become more efficient it may be possible to have a fold out solar array on the roof of your EV to top up the battery while parked,  if PV cells go from  say 10% to 40% efficiency then you need only 1/4 of the active panel area to get same power.   Only proviso is that you always have to park facing south LOL

At the moment a good domestic panel of 1600 x 1000 mm of about 18% efficiency  will produce 300 watts so would take over 3 hours to generate 1kwh under ideal conditions. In a Nissan Leaf 1Kw/h would take you about 3 miles.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 17, 2017, 11:51:07 AM
Attached is an interesting .PDF  from the energy trust

It says EV vehicles are more efficient at lower speeds (typical urban speeds of 30mph or less),  where peak ICE efficiency is around 45 to 50mph.  That use of heater and aircon will drain EV battery faster than you may think. 

I think range for EV is given at steady 50mph,  so stay below that and you could increase range,  but go above it and range reduces quite quickly.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 17, 2017, 03:36:10 PM
With Hyundai promising, today, their new EV will have 300 mile range, most of the other manufacturers of similar vehicles are probably about the same place.
According to the Energy Trust using the heating consumes 10% of your range. That is only a reduction of 30 miles on a car with that sort of range.
(https://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/7D29/production/_97414023_gettyimages-517068842.jpg)

The other big news on the energy front is Professor John Underhill, from Heriot-Watt University, saying that the gas reserves in shale rocks in the UK have been "hyped". The government should have a plan B.
Prof Underhill said his research on the influence of tectonic plates on the UK suggested that the shale formations have been lifted, warped and cooled by tectonic action. These factors make shale gas production much less likely.
"The complexity of the shale gas basins hasn't been fully appreciated so the opportunity has been hyped," he told the BBC.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 17, 2017, 05:02:10 PM
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/electric_vehicle_ev (http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/electric_vehicle_ev)

interesting stuff about EV batteries,  this article says EV makers oversize the battery to allow for battery fade with age.

Just look at the weight of the Tesla - 2100 Kg - The BMW i3 is half that weight,  the Tesla battery alone is half the weight of the complete i3.

Some info about fuel cells as well - in fact the BU site is a mine of information

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/bu_1005_fuel_cell_vehicle (http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/bu_1005_fuel_cell_vehicle)

And something I have always known -------- http://driving.ca/auto-news/news/motor-mouth-people-can-still-drive-better-than-computers-when-we-want-to (http://driving.ca/auto-news/news/motor-mouth-people-can-still-drive-better-than-computers-when-we-want-to)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 17, 2017, 05:54:12 PM
Interesting post, on another site, from a Leaf owner.

Battery packs that need to be heated - already do this automatically. For our 2015 Leaf, it is most important to heat the battery during charging - and it does this.

I actually don't mind wearing a coat and gloves (and hat if needed) inside the car - because that is how you have to dress to be outside in cold weather. You're out of the wind, and heated seats are quite nice, and they take virtually nothing away from range.

Heating the battery, though, does become noticeable when it gets really cold. Low teens* and below, the range is affected.

The ONLY time you need to use the heater - is to keep the windows clear, or to melt ice.


* 13°F is -10°C.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 18, 2017, 08:25:00 AM
http://driving.ca/auto-news/news/as-robots-take-the-wheel-driving-skills-begin-to-hit-the-skids (http://driving.ca/auto-news/news/as-robots-take-the-wheel-driving-skills-begin-to-hit-the-skids)

Seems that people already finding other things to do (other than watching the road) even in cars with the simpler 'driver assist functions' - accidents going up.  Seems a lot of them don't understand that emergency auto braking only works <20mph.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 18, 2017, 08:49:23 AM
I agree. Even cruise control used to make me lose concentration.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 18, 2017, 09:24:55 AM
Found this on YouTube. May be of interest to some of you. As a man who has completed dozens of laps of the Nurburgring, albeit on the Xbox, I found it fascinating.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcepG9Twa_8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcepG9Twa_8)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: auntyneddy on August 18, 2017, 02:30:50 PM
Mr Trump bangs on about fake news. The learned Professor has told us that the shale gas is a con.  Is HM Government subsidising the shale gas exploration? It really would be nice if the experts would stop coming up with their own particular 'bit' and told us the truth. Not the Professor as what he says makes a lot of sense.
As to Culzean pointing out that the auto braking only works at < 20mph, HOW many car owners read even only a bit of their handbook?  A press hack states so and so car is fitted with auto braking and members of the public forget abut the brake pedal.
Being an old fart terrifies me as I cannot grasp all this technology, why o why are manufacturers putting all this 'equipment' into cars. Why not make them cheaper by leaving out the self parking type gizmos etc and why can't we the human being just learn to drive properly. After all we con ourselves into believing we are superior to other life. I can just about understand why a battery needs to be warmed on a cold day to maximise charging, sorry it just appears that Homo Sapien is hell bent on coming up with something new just for the sake of it.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 18, 2017, 03:34:41 PM
I watched an interview with the CEO of Good Energy, and she says that energy, particularly oil and gas, is subsidised beyond belief. Witness the £2.5 billion pledge to the oil industry, made in Aberdeen, immediately after the election fiasco.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on August 18, 2017, 04:31:22 PM

Being an old fart terrifies me as I cannot grasp all this technology, why o why are manufacturers putting all this 'equipment' into cars. Why not make them cheaper by leaving out the self parking type gizmos etc and why can't we the human being just learn to drive properly. After all we con ourselves into believing we are superior to other life. I can just about understand why a battery needs to be warmed on a cold day to maximise charging, sorry it just appears that Homo Sapien is hell bent on coming up with something new just for the sake of it.

 ;D

2 things spring to mind as a result of this post. Firstly, the old boy across the road has a top of the range Civic (he changes every 3 years - I think he gets motability) and he found a button that scared him so much he put tape over it in case he pressed it by accident. I think he thought it was an ejector seat!

Secondly, in the latest Which car buyers guide, Dacia come out quite well on reliability and one reason is there is so little equipment there is nothing to go wrong!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 18, 2017, 05:05:57 PM
EV's are nothing new. This is the the land speed record holder from 1899. Speed was 57.65 mph.
Problem was battery storage technology. And we all know what happened next.
(https://img.newatlas.com/the-first-world-land-speed-record-ev-18.jpg?auto=format%2Ccompress&ch=Width%2CDPR&crop=entropy&fit=crop&h=347&q=60&w=616&s=59ed438696806d3993d178a725490405)
The first record holder was a Jeantaud, also electric. Jeantaud started making EV's in 1881. It was 1885 before Karl Benz built what is recognised as the first "production" car (1808 was first ICE vehicle - H2 powered).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on August 18, 2017, 05:26:32 PM
Good post Jocko. There is definitely an element of "Back to The Future" about current developments.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 18, 2017, 09:30:07 PM
Found this today. Blown away. And this is still early stages. Well worth a watch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfRqNAhAe6c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfRqNAhAe6c)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on August 19, 2017, 09:19:45 AM
...Dacia come out quite well on reliability and one reason is there is so little equipment there is nothing to go wrong!

Simplicity is a good thing when it's made of Renault parts.  ;)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: auntyneddy on August 19, 2017, 11:21:57 AM
Peteo48 has hit the nail on the head. We unfortunately overlook a junction of minor roads. I also live in the West Country, whereby the latest reg is the thing. I am completely at a loss to understand why the older generation buy the car they do. Opposite is a retired farmer, he has always bought Ford!!!!! He can barely walk nor appears to know what day of the week it is. His Brother visits, a brand new Audi A6, a year ago it was a Jaguar. Both must be mid 70's. They terrify me. As to the motability business matey probably has to pay a surplus to get top of the range, whats the point. As my poor Wife says, a car should go when you want it to and to be waterproof. I like a bit more than that. We both can have a motability car but we decided not to because we prefer automatic and most of what they offer is base model small engine UNLESS you want to cough up!!!!
As to the Dacia, being reliable! well why can't Renault emulate that after all as I understand it a Dacia is made of Renault's yesterday engineering, which surely confirms what is the point of making them more and more complicated. We downsized our car, the Jazz fitted the bill, it is not new and it bothers me not in the slightest. It is all very well buying the latest flashiest car but what's the point when you can't pay the other bills and believe me that is very much the case in this part of the world.


Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on August 19, 2017, 02:02:10 PM
Just wondering, with reference to Dacia and the use of older Renault technology, if that doesn't also explain why Skoda are consistently more reliable than VWs or Audis?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 21, 2017, 09:48:42 AM
if that doesn't also explain why Skoda are consistently more reliable than VWs or Audis?

Maybe Skoda have more quality 'Czechs' on their production line (A lot of German cars are probably built by Turkish and other third world workers which explains why angelic Merkel loves third world immigrants so much).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 21, 2017, 12:51:41 PM
It is all very well buying the latest flashiest car but what's the point when you can't pay the other bills and believe me that is very much the case in this part of the world.

All depends on people's priorities,  there are some small rented terraced houses by us and some of them have big mercs and beamers with latest reg outside (may also be drug dealers keeping one step ahead of the law),  I am also convinced that more than a few people with vanity plates have them to hide the true age of their car,  still cannot understand why UK is only country in the world with registration date on the number plate except to cater for people who need to have 'newest car' (normally a company car).



Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on August 21, 2017, 02:00:34 PM
with registration date on the number plate except to cater for people who need to have 'newest car'.
You have hit the nail on the head. The registration year letter (now numbers) was at the behest of the motor industry to promote sales. The change to twice a year was to spread the "blip", and even the date it changes is because the 1st of January wasn't convenient for the motor industry/dealers.
My "vanity " plate shoes the car as much older than it really is.
Also, I wouldn't mind betting there are probably as many "private lease" vehicles registered these days as company vehicles. The car dealerships near me no longer have the "Drive away for £500 deposit" stickers on the car. They are now "Lease for £109 per month". My step-daughter got caught with that. Her circumstances changed and she had to return her leased Polo. It cost her £4000 to get out of the contract.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on August 21, 2017, 09:27:37 PM
Came across this article under the heading 'it's been a tough week for self-driving cars'

http://driving.ca/auto-news/news/motor-mouth-autonomous-cars-uber-san-francisco

and on the same site..........

http://driving.ca/auto-news/news/the-road-to-fully-autonomous-cars-is-the-most-dangerous

http://driving.ca/nissan/leaf/auto-news/news/self-driving-cars-will-worsen-traffic-and-nobody-will-care
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 01, 2017, 08:43:41 AM
Reading an interesting bit about autonomous cars saying that they could well be ICE powered. No need to be electric.
They are already carrying out tests with autonomous trucks, in the US, and they are just conventional diesel powered "Semis".
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 04, 2017, 09:30:36 AM
I see that Samsung has been granted a licence to test autonomous cars on the roads of California. They are not looking to build cars of their own, but to develop a system that can be licensed for use by other vehicle manufacturers.
A sort of "Windows" for autonomous vehicle.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-41122102 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-41122102)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 06, 2017, 09:40:49 PM
This could be the cork out of the bottle.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-selfdriving/house-unanimously-approves-sweeping-self-driving-car-measure-idUSKCN1BH2B2?utm_campaign=trueAnthem%3A+Trending+Content&utm_content=59b046e104d3012442b7bd3d&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=facebook (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-selfdriving/house-unanimously-approves-sweeping-self-driving-car-measure-idUSKCN1BH2B2?utm_campaign=trueAnthem%3A+Trending+Content&utm_content=59b046e104d3012442b7bd3d&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=facebook)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 10, 2017, 09:33:44 PM
Tesloop, a City to City transport service running out of LA (ride sharing like a small bus) uses Teslas. Their first car, a model S, has just done 300,000 miles in two years. Total running costs were $10,294 for fuel and maintenance which included a replacement for a damaged headlight at $3,500. They estimated it would have cost them $86,000 for an equivalent ICE car. At the current rate, they will have done 1,200,000 miles before the battery/drivetrain eight year/unlimited mileage warranty expires, in 2023.
The fuel costs were virtually zero because they used the Tesla Supercharger system.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DIf9z6PWsAEMWsx.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 11, 2017, 07:10:59 AM
China has announced its intention to ban the sale and production of petrol and diesel powered cars. As yet they have not set a date for the ban to be implemented. I feel, with China's love of the electric car, it will be sooner rather than later. As the worlds largest manufacturer of motor vehicle (two and a half times as many as its nearest rival, the USA) this will have a profound effect on economies around the globe. China is also the worlds largest buyer of cars.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 11, 2017, 08:34:24 AM
China has announced its intention to ban the sale and production of petrol and diesel powered cars. As yet they have not set a date for the ban to be implemented. I feel, with China's love of the electric car, it will be sooner rather than later. As the worlds largest manufacturer of motor vehicle (two and a half times as many as its nearest rival, the USA) this will have a profound effect on economies around the globe. China is also the worlds largest buyer of cars.

Other countries may stop trading with China soon, including USA because China wants to be a world power but does not yet realise that with power comes responsibility.  China is using North Korea as a proxy to see how far it can push USA and its allies,  but they have to realise that they are no longer dealing with 'appeasement Obama' and that Trump will pretty soon stop USA trading with any country who still trades with NK and that will suit USA as it brings jobs back home.  China also needs to get its human rights in order - EU will probably still trade with China as they need the money, especially after we leave, and with a shrinking involvement in world trade the EU can't afford to sacrifice trade for the moral high ground - despite what its loony lefty socialist dreaming non-elected leaders may preach.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/01/19/news/economy/china-fourth-quarter-gdp-economic-growth/index.html

China economy is overheating,  with massive corporate and private debt - how much longer before the bubble bursts.  Also their workforce is shrinking due to ageing  (they have also killed a lot of them with pollution and industrial accidents LOL)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 11, 2017, 09:30:10 AM
China buys $116Bn of goods from the US, albeit considerably less than the US buys from China. If the US stopped trading with China tomorrow, the bulk of those imported goods sales, currently coming from China, would go to India, Malaysia, Japan and South Korea. Not a lot of American jobs coming from there.
As for Trump. He is just a blustering buffoon. He is US president in name only. North Korea, China and Russia all see through his bluffing. He is fast realising he can do little without the backing of Congress and the Senate. Except Tweet that is.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: zzaj on September 11, 2017, 09:57:36 AM
China buys $116Bn of goods from the US, albeit considerably less than the US buys from China. If the US stopped trading with China tomorrow, the bulk of those imported goods sales, currently coming from China, would go to India, Malaysia, Japan and South Korea. Not a lot of American jobs coming from there.
As for Trump. He is just a blustering buffoon. He is US president in name only. North Korea, China and Russia all see through his bluffing. He is fast realising he can do little without the backing of Congress and the Senate. Except Tweet that is.

Whoops!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 12, 2017, 09:55:05 PM
BMW for 2021. Looks like something out of Joe 90.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=v9L3q7FaGmY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=v9L3q7FaGmY)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lKzSAOM82A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lKzSAOM82A)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: auntyneddy on September 15, 2017, 02:42:54 PM
I am getting old and the brain cells are rusty but can you with chaps explain the ad I saw recently.
Good old VW. It was an ad for a Golf GTE presumably GT electric. Unfortunately the TV was on mute but at the end came up 'petrol+electric' speed ( I think it was speed).
The ad appeared to suggest the car had a petrol engine and an electric motor.
As I said I did not hear the blurb ( most ads are muted in our house) but what is the point of an  petrol engine which produces electricity to power an electric motor to give speed.
Clearly i have missed something but as VW have previous for conning the world perhaps this is another German master race idea to blind us with science. .
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 15, 2017, 03:11:27 PM
It is not unusual to use both an electric motor and an internal combustion engine. That is what the current Formula One use to give added power. If you have a 150 bhp engine driving the front wheels and a 50 bhp engine driving the rear you effectively have a 200 bhp vehicle. The batteries can be charged by regenerative braking (as per F1) as well as using the engine to charge the battery when you don't need the 150 bhp. Or, in the case of a PHEV, you charge it, mainly, from the mains.
It would appear that the GTE is a pretty conventional Plug In Hybrid. The electric motor is also used to give low down torque, combining with the ICE when it is required for more grunt. This is similar to the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: VicW on September 15, 2017, 03:33:14 PM
It is not unusual to use both an electric motor and an internal combustion engine.

Isn't this what the Jazz Hybrid, Honda Insight, Toyota Prius plus others did or do?

Vic.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 15, 2017, 03:55:05 PM
It is not unusual to use both an electric motor and an internal combustion engine.

Isn't this what the Jazz Hybrid, Honda Insight, Toyota Prius plus others did or do?

Vic.

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-reviews/long-term-tests/bmw/bmw-i3-range-extender-2017-long-term-test-review/

BMW i3 has a range extender engine to top up its 100 mile range,  I think it is an option - my joke about city people without access to home charging using a Honda mobile generator to charge the battery may not have been too wide of the mark after all.  The i3 is pretty porky at 1440KG,  no wonder they had to use carbon fibre, if I remmber correctly the Jazz is around 400KG lighter.   Cost from factory of i3 is best part of £37,000 (before taking off around £5K plug-in grant courtesy of UK taxpayer LOL) - you need to save a lot of fuel to justify that price - don't know if you lease the battery though.

Anything with 'hybrid' in the name will be an ICE + leccy motor / battery setup.

Even the flagship BMW i8 is not immune to plummeting residuals,  look in the link above and nearly new cars are available over £30K less than new (£100K whew !!) cost.  Average mpg on 110 mile motorway commute was 35mpg.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on September 15, 2017, 04:05:13 PM
Here's an illustration of what is still wrong with the charging network for pure EVs. My wife's brother-in-law is over from South Africa and staying with his son and his wife in Rotherham. We are popping over to see him on Sunday - 140 mile round trip. This has just been arranged this lunchtime. Check on zap map and there are no chargers on either of the main Manchester to Sheffield routes (snake and Woodhead passes). This is a trip arranged at short notice and one that a Nissan Leaf couldn't do without a huge amount of faffing. Yes you could put a few miles on by using a plug at the destination but only a few. You'd then have to drive into the town centre and sit in a council car park for 40 minutes on a wet Sunday afternoon.

The infrastructure is still a joke and will remain a joke until charge points are as common as petrol pumps. EV an ideal second car at the moment but, as your only vehicle? No - not yet.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 15, 2017, 04:13:09 PM
The infrastructure is still a joke and will remain a joke until charge points are as common as petrol pumps. EV an ideal second car at the moment but, as your only vehicle? No - not yet.

Charge points need to be much more common than petrol pumps, a single petrol pump can easily service over 10 cars and hour (a normal garage with say 10 pumps = say 70 to 80 cars an hour to allow for queuing to pay and waiting for other cars to move),  a single EV charge point 1 car per hour at a push (an average UK EV charging point with a couple of outlets = 2 cars an hour, but sometimes if two cars plug in at same time charging current is halved - even with a Tesla supercharger,  so a 1 hour charge now becomes a 2 hour charge to get same range ) - and what is worse if your EV runs out of fuel on the road you can't stop a passing car and get a lift to nearest garage for a can of fuel, or ring your mate to bring one out - when I was an apprentice I was sent to stores for a 'box of amps' - that is what you will need with an EV,  the AA towing a big battery around.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 15, 2017, 04:59:14 PM
The currently available EVs, with the exception of the Tesla, are not suitable for long distance journeys. However, range is being extended all the time and battery/charging technology is improving at a phenomenal rate. EVs may never be a replacement for ICE cars, for every occasion. A group of people will never be able to jump into a car at Land's End and drive non stop to John O Groats by sharing the driving and only stopping for the toilet and fuel. But how many people do that. An EV with 300 mile range and overnight charging would suit my driving requirements, and probably most peoples personal motoring. Driving for an eight hour day at 70 mph would require 560 mile range. No one, sales rep or other, would ever need to do that (or should be allowed to do that). The current Tesla Model S 100D currently boasts 420 miles. 560 miles is not that far off.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on September 15, 2017, 05:24:55 PM
In terms of charge points you might not need as many points as petrol or diesel pumps because most charging will be done at home but you certainly need the spread.

I agree with Jocko that you will see improvements in battery technology but this will need to filter down below the sorts of prices that Tesla charges for a car albeit an upmarket one. I think that's why the deadline - 2040 - is about right.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 15, 2017, 06:55:11 PM
I am in my 70th year and I firmly believe that electric cars for the masses will take off in my lifetime.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: VicW on September 15, 2017, 07:42:50 PM
Nobody has yet answered the question how EV owners with no off street parking are going to charge their cars.
I don't think that the government has given this problem a thought either, remember they don't live in the real world along with the rest of us.
Don't think for one minute the local authorities are going to line the streets with charging points the cost would be horrendous.
How many millions of cars are there in this country, where is the electricity coming from to charge them all?
What will the government introduce to take the place of petrol/diesel tax?
An electric HGV doing 400 miles a day, I don't think so.

Vic.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 15, 2017, 07:47:30 PM
(https://nikolamotor.com/threesixty/3.jpg)

https://nikolamotor.com/one (https://nikolamotor.com/one)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: VicW on September 15, 2017, 08:05:48 PM
And the special charging points for all these millions of HGV's?

Vic.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 15, 2017, 08:13:01 PM
That one uses Hydrogen fuel cells. Fills up like a pump.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 15, 2017, 08:29:24 PM

An electric HGV doing 400 miles a day, I don't think so.


Read a bit about feasibility of battery powered lorries and due to weight of batteries required you soon reach the point where weight of batteries is eating into the payload big time, that is probably why they use hydrogen cells for that truck in Jacko link.   But with present technology hydrogen can either be made with electrolysing water (inefficient and power intensive) or from cracking hydrocarbons (fossil fuels) - ironically you use the hydrogen and the carbon becomes a waste product.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 15, 2017, 08:39:56 PM
But once we have cheap renewable energy that we can "waste"!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 15, 2017, 09:27:32 PM
But once we have cheap renewable energy that we can "waste"!

Solar and wind technology, after 50 years of subsidies, produces less than 1 percent of the world’s energy

there is installed capacity to provide about 7%,  but as we have seen with wind and solar  'installed capacity' bears no relation to actual power produced.  Nuclear provides more energy than renewables, and over 90% of world energy still comes from fossil fuels - renewables are not even keeping up with the increase in world energy requirements,  let alone making even a dent in the basic requirements.

Just underlines that 'there is no fuel like an old fuel' .............

Government (read - 'taxpayer') subsidies of renewables are muddying the water on the economic case,  much like the French farmers made a lot of money from EU Common Agricultural Policy by just owning a farm (whether it produced any food was neither here nor there) people are building renewables and in most cases they would not make economic sense without subsidies - nuclear is still the cleanest most reliable energy source but is being stifled by the skewing of the energy market that subsidies always produce.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 16, 2017, 08:37:00 AM
And you don't think nuclear is subsidised? Or oil, gas and even coal? The oil industry has just gone to Mrs May this week, asking for more government (taxpayer) handouts.
And according to the World Bank data, in 2014 renewables were at 22%, and rising rapidly.
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/EG.ELC.RNEW.ZS?view=chart (https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/EG.ELC.RNEW.ZS?view=chart)
With the UK at 19%.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on September 16, 2017, 09:12:36 AM
I have always thought that the answer is tidal energy, it is an immense and largely untapped source of energy. Wind may come & go, but you can't turn the moon off.

They are currently testing a single 2MW floating tidal rig in Orkney that has produced 116MWh over the period of a week, 7% of Orkney's total electricity consumpton. Estimates vary, but most agree that there is enough energy in the Pentland Firth to produce at least 50% of Scotland's electricity needs, some say over 100% with improving technology.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 16, 2017, 09:44:30 AM
I have always thought that the answer is tidal energy, it is an immense and largely untapped source of energy. Wind may come & go, but you can't turn the moon off.

They are currently testing a single 2MW floating tidal rig in Orkney that has produced 116MWh over the period of a week, 7% of Orkney's total electricity consumpton. Estimates vary, but most agree that there is enough energy in the Pentland Firth to produce at least 50% of Scotland's electricity needs, some say over 100% with improving technology.

My thoughts exactly,  wind and solar are too reliant on things that are not reliable enough to power our energy hungry society - the wind is not at all reliable or predictable, and turbines only operate in 'goldilocks' too little wind (below about 15 mph) = no power,  too much (over about 40mph) = no power as the turbine blades have to be feathered to protect the turbine.   Solar is too variable as well,  daytime cloud can reduce output to less than 10% of rated capacity, and in winter we only get at most 7 hours of daylight,  and only about 4 hours of that is useful to generate energy.   All the variability of renewables is making controlling the grid very challenging, making sure voltage and power levels are within legal useable values.

here is another source of fossil fuels yet to be tapped
http://e360.yale.edu/features/the-world-eyes-yet-another-unconventional-source-of-fossil-fuels-methane-hydrates
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 16, 2017, 03:48:33 PM
The opening paragraph kind of says it all.
Vast quantities of methane hydrates — frozen deposits of natural gas on the sea floor — exist worldwide. But as experimental drilling moves forward, many experts question the wisdom of exploiting a costly, environmentally risky trove of fossil fuels that will accelerate global warming.
Regarding wind turbines. The current designs of commercial wind turbines operate up to 55 mph. I live near a wind farm and there is very little time that one or more of them is not working. Usually when a turbine is stationary it is either down for maintenance of surplus to requirements (enough energy being delivered by generators that cannot be shut down quickly).
Tidal is definitely the way to generate a steady supply of electricity. The Solway Firth, Morecambe Bay area is the best for large tides. The Forth is very good too. The Pentland Firth and Orkney area is actually rather poor. Their popularity is probably because variations in height, between low and high tide, are not too extreme. After all, it is still in its infancy, relatively speaking.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on September 16, 2017, 07:26:51 PM
Tidal power is great, but it is a unique energy source which can be frequently totally destroyed for years due to natural events which were considered extreme when the installation was designed..  (eg 200 mph hurricanes, force 7 gales etc...)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on September 16, 2017, 07:49:25 PM
The Solway Firth, Morecambe Bay area is the best for large tides. The Forth is very good too. The Pentland Firth and Orkney area is actually rather poor.

I was always under the impression that The Pentland Firth was potentially one of the best sites for tidal power, the tidal race through the Firth is one of the fastest in the world.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 16, 2017, 08:52:38 PM
It depends on the type of tidal generator. A turbine type works great in a fast current (Pentland Firth). For the rise and fall type of generator you want a large variation between high and low tide (Solway Firth)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on September 16, 2017, 09:59:07 PM
I think that turbines are the thing up there, they are playing with floating rigs and seabed anchored types.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on September 16, 2017, 10:02:02 PM
I think the points Culzean makes about the ability of the grid to handle the variable power that come from the current crop of renewables are valid but, in my view, that is not an argument for not using them. It's an argument for a mixed economy in energy generation and that will include nuclear.

I watched a very good "Fully Charged" video on the work being done on Orkney. The 2 guys Robert Llewellyn was speaking to were not tree huggers but serious engineers. They opined that the current grid couldn't cope with more than about 25 to 30% renewables. It could cope with more if battery storage was part of the mix and more again if tidal (a largely unvariable renewable source) was deployed.

Another interesting point arose from some new houses being built there. Each house came with a Tesla power wall as standard. They also had a small solar array on the roof. The reason it wasn't larger was there was so much wind power on Orkney that the grid there simply couldn't cope with all the renewable energy being produced. On top of that, insulation standards were so high that the houses were only just below "passive house" standards - ie properties that required no heat.

We don't need to be burning stuff - time to move beyond the stone age. Fossil fuels have made a huge contribution but their time is gone. Oil is needed for other stuff - let's not keep burning it.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 17, 2017, 09:27:22 AM
I think the points Culzean makes about the ability of the grid to handle the variable power that come from the current crop of renewables are valid but, in my view, that is not an argument for not using them. It's an argument for a mixed economy in energy generation and that will include nuclear.

Due to variability of wind power, some countries use it for pumping water up into storage dams so they can use the hydro as and when they need it. They don't even try to wind directly to feed into grid.

here is an extract from an article on wind power..........

The main drawback in the use of wind energy for the generation of electricity is the intermittent nature of its source. Wind is extremely variable and there is no guarantee that it will blow when it is most needed.
For this reason, large scale integration of wind is a threat to the stability and reliability of utility grids hosting wind energy conversion systems. Moreover, wind power does not help in providing any of the ancillary services such as regulation reserves, voltage control and frequency control and therefore requires a substantial capacity of conventional energy generation that can provide regulation reserve to follow the wind power.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 17, 2017, 10:19:58 AM
I think, that as storage becomes cheaper and more efficient, this will become less of a problem. As I said earlier, often when you see turbines stationary it is because they have no use for the energy they could be producing. More and better storage would mitigate this. And we are not necessarily talking about Tesla Powerwalls here. Molten salt is used to store solar energy, but there is no reason why it could not be used to store energy produced by wind. Nowhere near as efficient, but if the energy is produced cheap enough then efficiency becomes less of an issue. They have even been used compressed air storage (since 1978), and flywheel storage! Options that become more attractive as the cost of generation goes down.
China is investing billions in renewables, and to recoup those billions they will want to sell to the rest of the world.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on September 17, 2017, 01:24:40 PM
Another interesting point arose from some new houses being built there. Each house came with a Tesla power wall as standard. They also had a small solar array on the roof. The reason it wasn't larger was there was so much wind power on Orkney that the grid there simply couldn't cope with all the renewable energy being produced. On top of that, insulation standards were so high that the houses were only just below "passive house" standards - ie properties that required no heat.

Orkney is a net exporter of electricity, but the cable to Scotland is often running at capacity, and there is no sign of any investment to improve the link. There are a number of options being explored to prevent (expensive) forced turbine shutdowns when the grid is unable to accept the electricity generated, such as the experiments with hydrogen production for the ferries, and heating initiatives on the North Isles to dump excess electricity into domestic storage heaters at discounted rates.

Orkney has a relatively high requirement for domestic heating. Although most new build is of high quality and very energy efficient, there is also a large stock of traditional housing which is very poor thermally.

The problem with the abundance of energy in places like Orkney, and to some extent some off shore wind, and even nuclear generation, is the transmission distances required. The electricity is simply not where it is needed, and transmission losses can be very significant with current technology. It is no accident that coal fired generation was built in a pattern radiating out from major population centres.

As Jocko said, the answer to wind/solar is storage. However, the grid and generation facilities are now being built around these unreliable renewable sources of electricity, and vast amounts of money are being poured into accommodating long term supply contracts for peak demand supply. I live near two 2GW coal fired power stations slated for closure soon, a new gas fired station of similar capacity has been built behind one, a new fast response gas station is being built now, and plans are emerging for another fast response gas station on the same site.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 17, 2017, 03:12:43 PM
Another interesting point arose from some new houses being built there. Each house came with a Tesla power wall as standard. They also had a small solar array on the roof. The reason it wasn't larger was there was so much wind power on Orkney that the grid there simply couldn't cope with all the renewable energy being produced. On top of that, insulation standards were so high that the houses were only just below "passive house" standards - ie properties that required no heat.
a new gas fired station of similar capacity has been built behind one, a new fast response gas station is being built now, and plans are emerging for another fast response gas station on the same site.

I don't understand why gas is used to make electricity (except as a cheap and quick short term 'patch'  to build replacement for other 'dirtier' fossil fuels),  conversion efficiency of gas to electric energy is about 40 to 45%  and then transmission losses.  You can burn that same gas in a domestic condensing boiler at over 90% efficiency - pretty much double the efficiency, even a 'low tech' gas boiler will get over 80% -  what a waste of gas.......................................
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 17, 2017, 07:19:01 PM
Another example of long battery life in a Tesla.

http://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-s-400k-km-250k-mi-7-percent-battery-degradation/ (http://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-s-400k-km-250k-mi-7-percent-battery-degradation/)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 17, 2017, 08:21:50 PM
Another example of long battery life in a Tesla.

http://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-s-400k-km-250k-mi-7-percent-battery-degradation/ (http://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-s-400k-km-250k-mi-7-percent-battery-degradation/)

Teslas batteries may well outlast the company.........................they are making a loss of $16,000 per car.

http://www.autonews.com/article/20170504/BLOG06/170509893/teslas-good-ideas-cant-pay-the-bills-forever

The Tesla autopilot has also been officially blamed for the crash that killed a driver when car hit a truck, the families response that  'the car did not kill our son' could well have been written by the Tesla legal department, Tesla refused to comment on whether an out of court settlement had been reached with the family - yeah right !! .   Big condemnation from the investigators was that even with cruise control set to high speed (up to 90mph) there was still no requirement for driver to even hod the steering wheel - seems to be a big gap where silicon valley meets common sense.

Other drivers have had close shaves using autpilot when it didn't detect stopped traffic in front of car,  luckily they weren't watching game of thrones on a video and were able to manually brake the car.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 17, 2017, 08:56:35 PM
Does your Jazz have cruise control? Do you have to hold the wheel to use it? I don't have cruise control on my Jazz but my Volvo didn't need me to hold the wheel.
Immediately after the incident Tesla admitted they needed to amend the software, and every Tesla was updated wirelessly. I have just had to wait 6 months for Honda to finally replace my airbags.
Tesla's accounts, as of 31st Dec 2016, showed a positive balance of $1,000M and Tesla Inc had a Debt to Total Capital ratio of 54.69%, a lower figure than the previous year's 105.43%. Even at a loss of $16,000 per car, Tesla has a long way to go before they are in difficulty. Even the article you linked to, said that Tesla has "incredible potential". And "Automotive News" receives most of its advertising revenue from the established motor industry! It is like reading an article in the "Daily Mail" that says immigrants are all crooks.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on September 17, 2017, 10:26:48 PM
I don't understand why gas is used to make electricity (except as a cheap and quick short term 'patch' to build replacement for other 'dirtier' fossil fuels)

I think that just about hits the nail on the head.

Gas has a number of advantages over other electricity sources. It is cheap and fast to build. Amazingly fast, in fact. I also noted the local paper boasting of the thousands of jobs secured building the current project... and 15 jobs created for people to run it. Yes, just 15.

The latest combined-cycle gas turbines are said to be 60% efficient, but it's still poor in the scheme of things, really.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 18, 2017, 09:29:09 AM
Musk has proved very adept at getting American taxpayers money in the form of subsidies and cheap loans,  every Tesla sold carries around US$8,000 'discount' courtesy of hard working Americans tax,  it has got sweetheart deals from states to build plants there - he has also managed to dazzle and hypnotise investors into piling money in with no visible return.  Building cars is different to writing software, as silicon valley has found out. Silicon valley (Google, Uber etc) boasted that it was going to put the 'old fashioned' car makers out of business,  if you look now there is non-one from silicon valley trying to build cars,  all they are interested in is writing software for other car makers to use.  I have been involved with 'old style' car makers pretty much all my working life installing robots and technology, and it is a brutal, low margin dog-eat-dog business (relying on selling vast numbers of cars to make even a reasonably modest profit),  where one recall can cost you the profit you made on the vehicle in the first place.

It is early days yet and the established car makers are moving into territory Tesla had to themselves for a while...........it will be interesting,  another slice of humble pie anyone ?

https://www.wired.com/2017/04/detroit-stomping-silicon-valley-self-driving-car-race/
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 18, 2017, 10:27:12 AM
It is early days yet and the established car makers are moving into territory Tesla had to themselves for a while...........it will be interesting
Without a doubt. Whoever ends up building electric cars in the future, EVs are here to stay, and the time of the ICE powered car is in the wane.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on September 18, 2017, 02:23:13 PM
I agree Jocko. We are witnessing the end of the Internal Combustion Engine - the end of an era - an exciting era and one that has opened up personal mobility to millions but it's time for something else.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on September 19, 2017, 12:47:14 PM
Useful article http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41268513 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41268513).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 19, 2017, 04:42:22 PM
Useful article http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41268513 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41268513).

Quite a balanced and common sense article,  quite a shock to get anything balanced from the BBC lately.  These days they are so liberal / left that it clearly shows in their coverage of pretty much everything.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 19, 2017, 05:01:57 PM
quite a shock to get anything balanced from the BBC lately.
My thoughts, exactly.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: zzaj on September 19, 2017, 05:34:41 PM
quite a shock to get anything balanced from the BBC lately.
My thoughts, exactly.

Even if it is an electric shock.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 20, 2017, 12:26:10 PM
The news, today, is about an electric bus which has just travelled over 1000 miles on one charge.
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/9EF5/production/_97939604_electricbus.gif)
The 40ft Catalyst E2 Max bus has a 660 kWh battery.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-41333063 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-41333063)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 20, 2017, 12:45:01 PM
The payload of an electric bus is nothing compared to an HGV,  50 passengers at 100kg each is still only 5 tonnes, and 1 tone of luggage would be a lot.

You get to the point of diminishing returns when you try to run vehicles with a big payload (20 tones or more) off batteries where the weight of the batteries required becomes way too heavy and reduces the payload considerably - that is why one of the few heavy vehicles that is practical and in use runs off a big hydrogen fuel cell.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 20, 2017, 12:55:49 PM
I didn't say anything about HGV's. The bus has a huge floor area which allows for the installation of a huge battery. This is not the same as an HGV. Probably could be possible (just about) for a LGV though.
Stagecoach, for whom I drove, has a fleet of over 8,000 buses. That is a huge market for EV's
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: zzaj on September 20, 2017, 01:04:36 PM
The payload of an electric bus is nothing compared to an HGV,  50 passengers at 100kg each is still only 5 tonnes, and 1 tone of luggage would be a lot.

You get to the point of diminishing returns when you try to run vehicles with a big payload (20 tones or more) off batteries where the weight of the batteries required becomes way too heavy and reduces the payload considerably - that is why one of the few heavy vehicles that is practical and in use runs off a big hydrogen fuel cell.

Presumably that's why the electric milk float died? We use to get an electric bakers van too. The fishmonger and butcher used cycle delivery.  All sounds quite modern now!
 
Tanfield recently set out to build battery powered courier vans for TNT but I think that too died a death.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 20, 2017, 01:17:05 PM
Back in the 50's our local Co-op had an electric baker's shop that used to trundle all round the town. It wasn't very fast but managed a 6 - 8 hour shift.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/9e/17/5e/9e175efeece8cb6e3a97e18536ffc0f0.jpg)
It was similar to this Smiths van here.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TG on September 23, 2017, 11:28:13 AM
You get to the point of diminishing returns when you try to run vehicles with a big payload (20 tones or more) off batteries where the weight of the batteries required becomes way too heavy and reduces the payload considerably
"Despite the amount of energy required to move this 110-ton beast, it turns out that it can be done with an electric powertrain.

Lithium Storage GmbH and Kuhn Schweiz AG disassembled the Komatsu 605-7 and replaced the diesel engine with a synchronous electric motor capable of 590kW (800hp) of continuous power and up to 9,500 Nm torque.  They originally planned to fit a massive 600 kWh lithium-ion battery pack to power the electric motor, but they actually managed to fit 700 kWh of energy capacity on the chassis of the vehicle by using 1,440 prismatic NMC cells for a total battery pack weight of 4.5 tons."

"The truck's daily schedule - trucking material from a mountain ridge down into a valley 20 times a day - makes it ideal for electric conversion. Instead of wasting heat energy on the brakes as the truck descends, the energy can be harvested and used to charge the batteries.  If all goes as planned, the team claims, the truck apparently harvests more energy going downhill than it needs for the ascent, so it can actually feed surplus electricity into the grid (It's not exactly clear how that squares with the laws of thermodynamics).

.... the truck will be able to recuperate 40 kWh of its way down, something the truck does 20 times a day for a total of 800 kWh of energy capacity through regenerative braking."

--
TG
(https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2017/09/e-dumper-stopperbild.jpg)

http://www.techradar.com/news/the-worlds-biggest-electric-vehicle-is-this-dumper-truck
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 23, 2017, 09:02:44 PM
the team claims, the truck apparently harvests more energy going downhill than it needs for the ascent, so it can actually feed surplus electricity into the grid (It's not exactly clear how that squares with the laws of thermodynamics).
They may go downhill loaded and uphill empty.
Some of these big dumper trucks are actually driverless. Works well in the confine of the quarry or mine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_Re68mLf9Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_Re68mLf9Q)
(https://static1.squarespace.com/static/54f4cf23e4b02841c1824db0/t/56352b6be4b0767213f41332/1446325103927/giant+self+driving+dump+truck)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 25, 2017, 02:28:17 PM
On the news today, that the Chief Executive of Scottish Power says the UK needs to increase its generating capacity by 25% to cope with electric cars and the shift to electric heating. Keith Anderson was speaking as the firm reached the milestone of 2,000  megawatts of wind power capacity.That equates to about an eighth of the British total.
He also said there would have to be a major investment in the wiring necessary to handle rapid charging of car batteries.
He said that once the price of electric cars falls to that of petrol or diesel, which it is thought will happen between 2022 and 2025, there could be a rapid shift in buying patterns and electricity usage.
Earlier this month, First Minister Nicola Sturgeon announced a target of shifting from petrol and diesel-fuelled cars to battery power by 2032, while the UK government intends to make that shift by 2040.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-41373466 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-41373466)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 26, 2017, 06:33:10 PM
I see Dyson have announced they are investing £2bn to start building battery powered electric cars. He will have a car ready by 2020. Seemingly a team of 400 engineers have been working on the project for the past 2 years. He is keeping his cards close to his chest on details.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 26, 2017, 07:35:08 PM
I see Dyson have announced they are investing £2bn to start building battery powered electric cars. He will have a car ready by 2020. Seemingly a team of 400 engineers have been working on the project for the past 2 years. He is keeping his cards close to his chest on details.

Hope the cars are put together better than his vacuum cleaners.  Is he expecting to clean up the market ? Wonder why he hopes to succeed where the silicon valley whizz kids have failed ? Car makers have the skills to make cars, they can buy in any tech they need.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 26, 2017, 07:44:57 PM
I have a Dyson vacuum cleaner and it is brilliant. Been using it for a few years now. Even the battery lasts well, which surprised me.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: zzaj on September 26, 2017, 10:01:33 PM
I see Dyson have announced they are investing £2bn to start building battery powered electric cars. He will have a car ready by 2020. Seemingly a team of 400 engineers have been working on the project for the past 2 years. He is keeping his cards close to his chest on details.

Hope the cars are put together better than his vacuum cleaners.  Is he expecting to clean up the market ? Wonder why he hopes to succeed where the silicon valley whizz kids have failed ? Car makers have the skills to make cars, they can buy in any tech they need.

To be fair I suspect he is focusing on the motors and batteries. Any car maker can assembly the car. He seems to  have recruited the Product Development Director of Aston Martin. The car won't be cheap!

Bloombergs account below sets out an interesting insight into Dyson's aspirations.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-09-26/dyson-will-build-radically-different-electric-car-by-2020

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/dyson-car-former-aston-martin-product-development-director-joins-dyson

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 27, 2017, 08:18:17 AM
One of the articles says Dyson has no plans (or the money) to set up charging infrastructure and is looking for government money (i.e. taxpayers money) to fit 21kw charging points in people's homes, now 21kw is about 84 amps, and the total supply to most homes is 80 to 100 amps (with a supply company fuse to protect their cables). You really won't be able to have a shower or boil your kettle while car is charging LOL - I don't think supply companies have the money or the will to upgrade their infrastructure to give houses extra power, and the cables are not sized for all households to draw max current at same time (diversity factor), so it will be equivalent of Tesla power wall in the house to level out the demand on the supply cables.

Dyson also says their car won't be cheap (which is a given for Dyson stuff, their hand driers are best part of £2grand each)  what he does not say is if it will be held together with flimsy plastic tags that break when you try to open a cover to fix the car).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 27, 2017, 08:30:05 AM
One of the articles says Dyson has no plans (or the money) to set up charging infrastructure and is looking for government money (i.e. taxpayers money) to fit 21kw charging points in people's homes

Dyson also says their car won't be cheap
Can you please link to the articles quoted as I am having trouble finding them?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 27, 2017, 08:54:40 AM
Found this reference: "There's no point in doing one that looks like everyone else's," he said, adding that it would not be a sports car and it would not be "a very cheap" car.
A big difference between "a very cheap" car and won't be cheap. A Tesla is not cheap, but to me a very cheap car is the likes of the Tata Nano or the old Kia Pride. I think what he is saying is it won't be a Sinclair C5!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 27, 2017, 09:03:16 AM
How about one of these. The Bollinger. Look familiar?
(http://bollingermotors.com/assets/img/compressed/0875_Bollinger_TopCarousel_01_86A2872_Resized.png)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 27, 2017, 10:50:16 AM
One of the articles says Dyson has no plans (or the money) to set up charging infrastructure and is looking for government money (i.e. taxpayers money) to fit 21kw charging points in people's homes

Dyson also says their car won't be cheap
Can you please link to the articles quoted as I am having trouble finding them?

They are the links in zzaj post, Bloomberg and autocar articles.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on September 27, 2017, 11:09:11 AM
One of the issues that is becoming more apparent (to me anyway) is just how inadequate the current charging infrastructure is for charging electric cars on the move. Now we will not need as many individual outlets as we do petrol stations because around 90% of charging is done at home but there are still charging deserts and still journeys that are next to impossible in an EV.

In short, despite the best efforts of some really quite small players like Ecotricity and Charge Your Car, the network is pants, garbage, rubbish - whatever you like to call it and the responsibility for that needs dumping where it belongs and that is on most EV manufacturers who appear to have zero interest in creating a useable network. Only Tesla "get" what is required and that is multiple chargers at each location so there is always a charger free and always a charger working.

Sometimes you need to set targets to focus minds - we probably all had targets set for us at work - I know I did so this would be a workable target:

"It should be possible to charge an EV at 50 mile intervals. That charger should be rapid. Charging should be standardised across all makes and the need for Apps to check in advance should be abolished."

How hard can it be given the will? I can see why governments have set a 2040 deadline because we are light years away from a useable charging network. Currently EVs remain something for the "Early Adopters" amongst us. Nothing wrong with that but I won't buy an EV until the target above is reached. At my age that may well mean never.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on September 27, 2017, 11:15:33 AM
Just to add - read a post on an EV forum recently - another target:

"200 miles range at 70 mph with aircon, heating, wipers and lights on in wet weather at 5 degrees. That car to cost no more than a comparable ICE car."

This probably in reach and might mean the charging network target becomes less essential although should still be an aspiration
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 27, 2017, 11:19:00 AM
They are the links in zzaj post, Bloomberg and autocar articles.
Right thanks, Bloombergs wouldn't allow me to see their page because of my ad blocker. Disabled it and found the parts you were referring to.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 27, 2017, 11:26:22 AM
There is no doubt that the charging infrastructure is letting EVs down, and until it is up to scratch then uptake of EVs will never reach its full potential (no pun intended). It is not in Nissan, GM, BMW, Ford, etcs own interest to invest in charging. They sell ICE cars and would be more than happy to do so foe ever and a day. As Tesla only sell EVs they have to offer charging support. If Ford suddenly found it could only sell EVs in the UK (as it will do after 2040) it will bend over backwards to provide charging infrastructure. The same will go for all the other ICE manufacturers.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: auntyneddy on September 27, 2017, 11:42:42 AM
If Mr Dyson is looking into the EV market and he is keeping it all close to his chest, can one blame him? When he developed his vacuum cleaner with it's cyclone he had to take on Electrolux and others who pinched his ideas.
We had two Dysons in earlier years and we had problems. We have just dumped the second Miele, which was conforming to the new EU regs it was useless. In the spring we bought one of Mr Dyson's DC40's and it is still lifting stuff that the Miele left behind and I can assure you this is not a dirty house
The DC40 is well inside the EU directive.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: pb82gh3 on September 27, 2017, 12:34:36 PM
Almost all my battery powered devices at home take AA or AAA rechargeable batteries, so refreshing batteries is very quick and simple. I suppose it would be too much to hope that the motor industry could cooperate and standardise so that simple and quick battery swap in/out was achievable.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 27, 2017, 02:27:18 PM
If Mr Dyson is looking into the EV market and he is keeping it all close to his chest, can one blame him? When he developed his vacuum cleaner with it's cyclone he had to take on Electrolux and others who pinched his ideas.
We had two Dysons in earlier years and we had problems. We have just dumped the second Miele, which was conforming to the new EU regs it was useless. In the spring we bought one of Mr Dyson's DC40's and it is still lifting stuff that the Miele left behind and I can assure you this is not a dirty house
The DC40 is well inside the EU directive.

The 'Dyson' cyclone had been in use for a very long time in industry before it was 'discovered' by Sir James in the 1980's, the cyclone was patented by Robert Kent in 1917.  When Jimmy was a kid he used to visit a sawmill near his house and saw how they sucked up the sawdust and separated it, a similar device has been used in compressed air filters for ages to separate water out of compressed air. The other vacuum cleaner makers were making more profit out of replaceable  dust filters than they ever made out of selling the cleaners so were in no hurry to change their designs even though they were well aware of the cyclone principles (same thing now with printers, they virtually give the printers away just so you will have to buy their ink cartridges).

The other makers came out with competing cyclone cleaners very quickly because Sir Jimmy could not really patent something that he did not invent.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 27, 2017, 03:11:36 PM
same thing now with printers, they virtually give test printers away just so you will have to buy their ink cartridges
I can vouch for this. I worked for Lexmark, in their cartridge production factory in Rosyth (before they closed down their UK operation because of our stringent health and safety culture). The cartridges we produced, for distribution with new printers, held enough ink to do the initial set up and print a couple of foolscap sheets. After that, you had to buy the cartridges made with Chanel No5, 50 year old malt, and unicorn urine.
The sale price of the printers doesn't quite recover the cost of manufacturing.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on September 27, 2017, 05:11:56 PM
There is no doubt that the charging infrastructure is letting EVs down, and until it is up to scratch then uptake of EVs will never reach its full potential (no pun intended). It is not in Nissan, GM, BMW, Ford, etcs own interest to invest in charging. They sell ICE cars and would be more than happy to do so foe ever and a day. As Tesla only sell EVs they have to offer charging support. If Ford suddenly found it could only sell EVs in the UK (as it will do after 2040) it will bend over backwards to provide charging infrastructure. The same will go for all the other ICE manufacturers.

Excellent summary of why we are where we are.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on September 27, 2017, 06:04:59 PM
Almost all my battery powered devices at home take AA or AAA rechargeable batteries, so refreshing batteries is very quick and simple. I suppose it would be too much to hope that the motor industry could cooperate and standardise so that simple and quick battery swap in/out was achievable.

As battery capacity and performance are a - if not THE - KEY element in EV performace, any suggestion of a universal battery size/fittings is pie in the sky. Furthermore BIG EVs require bigger batteries than small EVs so battery interchangeability is not going to be easy.
And a standard battery layout would constrain makers of differing car types and sizes.
In my opinion, it is never going to happen.. Until batteries weigh under 10kgs and are under 10*10*10cms in size...
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 27, 2017, 06:14:27 PM
Seven minutes and a few seconds into this video shows them fitting the "small" battery fitted to the Renault ZOE. You can appreciate why they are not readily changeable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxGauhTIRXQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxGauhTIRXQ)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on September 28, 2017, 05:48:01 PM
Almost all my battery powered devices at home take AA or AAA rechargeable batteries, so refreshing batteries is very quick and simple. I suppose it would be too much to hope that the motor industry could cooperate and standardise so that simple and quick battery swap in/out was achievable.

As battery capacity and performance are a - if not THE - KEY element in EV performace, any suggestion of a universal battery size/fittings is pie in the sky. Furthermore BIG EVs require bigger batteries than small EVs so battery interchangeability is not going to be easy.
And a standard battery layout would constrain makers of differing car types and sizes.
In my opinion, it is never going to happen.. Until batteries weigh under 10kgs and are under 10*10*10cms in size...

And, just in support of this, it isn't even possible to swap the 24kwh battery in the Nissan Leaf for a 30kwh - not through official channels anyway.

Wonder, if at some time in the future, there might be after market players entering the fray?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TG on September 28, 2017, 06:38:48 PM
With the whole platform concept such as the MQB (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Group_MQB_platform) with VW/Skoda/Audi/Seat it should be theoretically possible to have a standard range of batteries but the rate of change is so rapid that a 2019 battery is likely to be much better than a 2017 version.  An engineering manager I know who is indirectly involved in analysing tear-downs of competitors cars tells me that the battery management, monitoring, cooling & protection takes up more room than the battery itself in a BMW i3.  It seems quite likely that these ancillaries will be so tightly integrated that it will take much more than just a cell swap to have a viable upgrade or renewal path.
--
TG
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 29, 2017, 09:14:04 AM
As with pretty much anything, it is the early adopters that get the problems and take the financial hit. Wait till it has settled down and tech is sorted, soon the subsidised honeymoon period will be over and governments will show their hand on new tax regimes for EV, new real world prices for public charging points etc. My guess is road pricing will be introduced because governments can't have differential taxes for electricity used to charge EV at home and power used for domestic purposes unless they have two meters one for house and one for car, which would be pretty much impossible to enforce as people can charge (more slowly at 3kw from a regular 13amp socket), they cannot expect other electrical power users to subsidise EV users fuel.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on September 29, 2017, 11:48:01 AM
I can certainly see some new tax regime being necessary once EVs take off in a big way. Good point about early adopters - some of the contortions they go through with short range EVs are simply unacceptable to a majority of people used to the convenience of ICE cars or, of course, hybrids. The rest of us depend on early adopters, they perform a useful service but I might have mentioned a trip from Warrington to a village just outside of Rotherham - 140 miles. I did some research, on a purely academic basis, to see if this trip was possible in an EV. It wasn't - end of.

Not only were there no chargers on either of the main trans Pennine routes to Sheffield but a zap-map check on using the M62 as an alternative (140 miles became 180 incidentally) revealed that the Ecotricity chargers at the service station I would have used were out of order on both carriageways. Yesterday, because I'd had a discussion with a mate who simply wouldn't believe that the trip was impossible, I got onto a site that plans a route for you including charge stops.

It indicated that I wouldn't reach my destination in a Nissan Leaf!!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on September 29, 2017, 09:42:41 PM
Edinburgh is introducing electric buses starting this Sunday. They will run on a city centre route, through the worst polluted part of the city.
The buses have a 130 mile range and can be recharged in 3 or 4 hours.

(http://cdn-01.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/uk/article36178479.ece/0adf9/AUTOCROP/w620h342/bpanews_503ae332-1973-4864-9821-08fabece1847_1)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-41429207 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-41429207)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on September 30, 2017, 09:59:59 AM
An ideal use for an EV due to stop start nature of buses, battery charge could also be topped up at bus stops if inductive coils were fitted in the road activated by RFI chips in the bus. Wonder how the passenger heating and cooling is powered, as buses are notorious for being either too hot or too cold, and windows always misted up inside on wet days.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 01, 2017, 10:34:36 PM
Watched the Fully Charged review of the new Volkswagen E Golf - and I want one. It is a classic Golf but an EV to boot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9LZNQBfm9U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9LZNQBfm9U)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 02, 2017, 09:09:38 AM
Watched the Fully Charged review of the new Volkswagen E Golf - and I want one. It is a classic Golf but an EV to boot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9LZNQBfm9U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9LZNQBfm9U)

If you wait 12 months you will pick one up for less than half  price of a new one LOL, caveat emptor !
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 02, 2017, 09:39:30 AM
There is currently a £4,500 grant towards the cost of a new E Golf, plus the current scrappage scheme. Makes buying a new one at the moment rather attractive. A 2016 model will cost about £21K with a new one £32K minus discounts, so no real incentive to buy a second hand car.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 02, 2017, 10:34:21 AM
Watched the Fully Charged review of the new Volkswagen E Golf - and I want one. It is a classic Golf but an EV to boot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9LZNQBfm9U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9LZNQBfm9U)

If you wait 12 months you will pick one up for less than half  price of a new one LOL, caveat emptor !

The pricing of EVs - generally - is a bit of a tangled web. For example the headline price of a new Nissan Leaf 30 kwh car may be around £27,000 but almost nobody pays that. I asked car wow to get me some quotes from Nissan dealers for a brand new 30kwh Leaf (as an academic exercise) and you were looking at £19,000 tops and the cheapest offer I got was £18,500 so the depreciation looks horrendous but that's only if you were daft enough to pay the sticker price.

An interesting little twist in the market at the moment is Nissan's scrappage scheme. You can chop your old diesel in against second hand Leafs - this seems to have firmed up the prices especially on the 30 kwh Leaf which is almost as expensive second hand as car wow can do a new one for.

And finally, even more than most cars, EV's are typically leased or PCP'd.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 02, 2017, 12:09:23 PM
You have to be careful with the Nissan Leaf. Often you think "that's a great price", then find out the battery is on a lease.
Talking of Nissan Leafs. There is a taxi firm, here in Kirkcaldy, using the Nissan Leafs, and NHS Fife has bought a fleet of  Nissan e-NV200s, to replace their small vans.
These ones are in Northumbria.

(http://nissaninsider.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Northumbria-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TG on October 02, 2017, 02:44:56 PM
At ex-colleagues company where VW Group is a client, they have an e-Golf & 4 GTE in the pool, the latter of which are first choice over a fairly wide range of other desirable stuff.
--
TG
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 02, 2017, 03:24:53 PM
The GTE is very desirable too, being a Plug in hybrid. Has more oomph and, of course, greater range.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 02, 2017, 04:53:06 PM
The reason people lease or pcp EV is battery, its like with an ICE car saying you can have the car for £150 a month,  but if you want the petrol tank it will cost you an extra £80 a month,  or you can buy the petrol tank outright for £8000, but we advise you to get petrol tank insurance because if it goes bad a service replacement petrol tank will cost you about £5000.

As Jocko says, most cheaper used EV have battery on lease, so add £70 to 80 a month to running costs,  and who would pay good money for a 4 year old EV with battery owned outright, with a chance that battery may go bad at any time.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 02, 2017, 05:51:51 PM
That is one good reason to buy a car new and buy the battery outright. If you treat the battery correctly there is no reason why it won't last the life of the car. The e-Golf’s 24 kWh lithium ion battery pack is covered with an 8-year, 100,000 mile warranty. Volkswagen says they developed the battery pack with the “intention of it having 80 per cent of its original capacity after 10 years’ use.” The target is based on an electric vehicle travelling about 9000 miles annually.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 02, 2017, 06:40:43 PM
One thing to remember with an EV battery is that you are only allowed to access 75 to 80% of its rated capacity, this is to protect the battery as no battery ever likes to be fully discharged, as it will damage the battery chemistry. The real world range of e Golf is about 120 miles, with economy mode available for longer range where the car switches off air on, heating etc.  I read in a few articles that with EV things like heated seats and heated steering wheel are fitted instead of normal 'whole car' heating because it gives an 'impression' of the car being warm, but uses less energy. The normal yardstick of 3 (normal) to 4 (economy) miles per Kw/h for EV would lead you to believe that e Golf with 24kw/h battery should have a range of 75 to 100 miles max, so they must be using regeneration to top up battery. The original 24kw/h battery fitted to a Nissan Leaf would only give 70 miles range.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 02, 2017, 07:30:15 PM
The e-Golf has a 35.8 kWh battery, driver selectable regenerative braking and, according to Jonny Smith of Fully Charged, he got 130 miles without using regenerative braking and without reducing the output by selecting Eco or Super Eco modes. There is also a Heat pump optional extra which reduces the electric power usage of the heating system by recycling heat from ambient air and waste heat from the drivetrain components. Mind you, most of my driving is done with no heating on anyway. I normally only do 4 miles at a time, and, to save fuel by letting the engine warm up, I leave the heater matrix closed off. Only time I put the heater on is when the coolant temperature achieves 80°C, which only ever happens on my weekend 80 mile jaunts. And I reckon the e-Golf will happily manage 80 miles, plus a bit of cabin heat, on one charge.
Mind you, that's a moot point, as I will be moving south of Edinburgh before getting an EV (whatever I go for), so I won't have my 80 mile weekend trips!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 02, 2017, 08:26:31 PM
The e-Golf’s 24 kWh lithium ion battery pack is covered with an 8-year, 100,000 mile warranty.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 02, 2017, 08:56:14 PM
On the Leaf my information is that a majority on the second hand market have the battery bought - ie not on a lease of £70 per month. Some of the more enlightened dealers - Chorley Group Motors in the North West for example - have all their used stock as battery owned - they buy out the leases if the car has one. They have realised that "flex" cars, as they are known, are pretty much unsellable on the used car market.

It's much more of a problem with the Renault Zoe.

But something you should always check.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 02, 2017, 10:04:33 PM
The e-Golf’s 24 kWh lithium ion battery pack is covered with an 8-year, 100,000 mile warranty.
That is the old model. The one I am looking at is the new one with the bigger battery. Still 8 year, 100,000 miles though.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 02, 2017, 10:15:08 PM
From VW UK site:

e-Golf 136PS BEV
Maximum speed (where law permits)   93mph
Gearbox   Direct Drive
Torque   214 lbs.ft
Power   136PS
Acceleration (0-62mph)   9.6 sec
CO2 Emissions   TBA
Payload   480kg
Battery Type   Lithium Ion
Max Power   TBA
Nominal Capacity   35.8kWh
DC Charge Time   60 minutes
AC Charge Time   650 minutes
Nominal Voltage   323V
Battery Weight   318Kg
Range, NEDC cycle   186miles
Battery Warranty   8years
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 02, 2017, 10:28:15 PM
Performance a bit disappointing, my Civic with 140ponies (about same power as VW claim) does 0-60 in 8.2 sec and over 130mph (speed limit permitting LOL). Also sounds luvverley.

Could it be that at 1540kg the VW is a bit porky compared to Civic at 1300kg.

Read in auto car review that VW gets to 60 OK, but 'runs out of steam' after that, what does that mean when going up a hill at 70 or over ?

If you look on EV car forums they complain that NEDC figures for range are even less accurate than mpg figures claimed for ICE vehicles, and if you get near 80% of claimed range you are doing very well, and more variables with a battery to affect range. In tests I read on Tesla a decent run on motorway at 70 dropped the range from claimed 320 down to just over 200 miles, that has never happened to any ICE car I have driven.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 03, 2017, 07:21:13 AM
culzean. I know you just don't like electric car and will never ever own one. For me the e-Golf is ideal. As I never go faster than 60 mph it doesn't matter a toss if it runs out of steam above that speed. 0-60 times mean sod all. As Top Gear once showed, a car that does 0-40 in 2 seconds and on to 60 in 10 accelerates much faster than a car that does 0-40 in 7 seconds and goes on to 60 in 10. For a manual transmission 0-60 times are measured using brutal gear changes and seldom seen by normal drivers. The e-Golf however has no gears hence no need for gear changes, brutal or otherwise. Which also explains why it runs out of acceleration above 60 mph. This is a function of the axle ratio.
Regarding range. The figures NEDC comes up with are probably just imagined. They give relative numbers between different vehicles tested in the same way. Nothing else. The figures I quoted were as experienced by Jonny Smith on "Fully Charged".
What I am saying is, when I am in a position to buy and run an electric car I will do. It may be an e-Golf, or a Leaf or even - if the gods smile on me - a Tesla. When the time comes I will have an EV.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 03, 2017, 10:22:09 AM


If you look on EV car forums they complain that NEDC figures for range are even less accurate than mpg figures claimed for ICE vehicles, and if you get near 80% of claimed range you are doing very well, and more variables with a battery to affect range. In tests I read on Tesla a decent run on motorway at 70 dropped the range from claimed 320 down to just over 200 miles, that has never happened to any ICE car I have driven.

The NEDC ratings are almost useless. That Golf will never, ever, do 186 miles or anything even remotely close. Just as the 30 kwh Leaf will never, ever do 155 miles or the 24 kwh Leaf ever do 124 miles.

A rough rule of thumb is that you could possibly rely on two thirds of the NEDC range so I reckon the Golf will be good for around 120 miles in the real world.

The American EPA figures are much better because unlike the bent, corrupt NEDC rules they approximate to real life situations. So NEDC for the 30 kwh Leaf is 155 - the EPA is 107.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 03, 2017, 10:39:59 AM
NEDC says 186 but Volkswagen says, that in the real world it will do 124. Jonny Smith reckoned 130 miles in Normal mode. There is also ECO and ECO+. In ECO+ mode the e-Golf is limited to 56 mph and that stretches the economy some. 120 miles would suit me.
My mate, Brian, doesn't own a car, but hires one when circumstances make it necessary. He hires a car about three times a year. I'd be happy to do that if I needed to make a long journey that the EV wouldn't manage. Enterprise picks you up and drops you back home, after you return your rental.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 03, 2017, 10:54:00 AM

The NEDC ratings are almost useless. That Golf will never, ever, do 186 miles or anything even remotely close. Just as the 30 kwh Leaf will never, ever do 155 miles or the 24 kwh Leaf ever do 124 miles.

A rough rule of thumb is that you could possibly rely on two thirds of the NEDC range so I reckon the Golf will be good for around 120 miles in the real world.

The American EPA figures are much better because unlike the bent, corrupt NEDC rules they approximate to real life situations. So NEDC for the 30 kwh Leaf is 155 - the EPA is 107.

Even though there are choices of economy modes it looks as though VW  have already limited the standard performance in the interests of battery range.  For the claimed 135PS power the performance is nowhere near what you should expect. I gave my Civic (with pretty much identical power)  performance as an example of what should be available. The fact that the eGolf is about 250kg heavier than Civic is a clue, but not the whole story.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 03, 2017, 01:01:36 PM
NEDC says 186 but Volkswagen says, that in the real world it will do 124. Jonny Smith reckoned 130 miles in Normal mode. There is also ECO and ECO+. In ECO+ mode the e-Golf is limited to 56 mph and that stretches the economy some. 120 miles would suit me.
My mate, Brian, doesn't own a car, but hires one when circumstances make it necessary. He hires a car about three times a year. I'd be happy to do that if I needed to make a long journey that the EV wouldn't manage. Enterprise picks you up and drops you back home, after you return your rental.

That's a point - hiring a car - that is often missed. Many in the current EV community are early adopters and have a certain pioneering spirit. I, like you I suspect, have watched hours of YouTube footage on EVs and renewable energy generally. I've seen people fiddling about with Apps and bits of plastic in the pouring rain, having to get permission to use the service road and other inconveniences including actually running out. In a reply to a comment I'd made on one early adopter's YouTube channel about these ridiculous Apps he said that fiddling about in the rain was a "rite of passage."

A rite of passage I'm happy to let the early adopters get on with. A more balanced outlook comes from people like Michael Boxwell who has written a book about the Nissan Leaf. He says that if you drive more than 50 miles more than a few times a month AND if the EV is going to be your only car then they are not for you at this point. He described a long trip to Cornwall in an EV as being tedious and wearying.

But as you say, £110 road tax is 2 thirds the way towards a hire car for a week. If an EV can do 90% or more of your journeys then they become viable.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 03, 2017, 05:29:30 PM
The American EPA figures are much better because unlike the bent, corrupt NEDC rules they approximate to real life situations. So NEDC for the 30 kwh Leaf is 155 - the EPA is 107.

The General figure for range on BEV is 3 to 4 miles per kw/h - with 3 being for normal driving and 4 for economy mode. Due to electric motor and transmission and inverter being same weight as engine in ICE and anywhere between 150 to 300 kg for battery, unless some serious weight reduction goes on (which BMW tried to do by using carbon fibre in i3 and i8) then range can only be improved by lighter more energy dense battery.

I believe that range is calculated at steady 50 to 55 mph, probably with everything electrical turned off.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 03, 2017, 08:29:46 PM
I know Robert Llewellyn, when he had a Leaf before his Tesla, tried to get 100 miles out of his 24 kwh Leaf. This involved driving, on a fine day, at a constant 40 mph (I think he said). The NEDC figures are almost criminally deceptive but then we know that from claims for ICE cars in terms of mpg.

I thought a new system was imminent - seems to have gone quiet on that front.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on October 04, 2017, 08:58:18 AM
Don't know about electric cars stamina and duration, but I reckon this thread has got a lot of life left in it yet.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 04, 2017, 10:42:49 AM
Don't know about electric cars stamina and duration, but I reckon this thread has got a lot of life left in it yet.

No range anxiety on this thread then. 

Best description I heard of EV battery was 'rubber bucket' which sums up the variables of battery temperature, ambient temperature, battery age etc.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on October 04, 2017, 11:04:11 AM
The trouble with EVs simply put is:
The most sensible place to use EVs is in cities. Charging in cities for many flat dwellers has huge issues.
Most people who try to walk and cycle tend to use cars in bad weather and winter. Range of EVs plummets in winter due to use of heating/wipers etc.
Electricity infrastructures - cables, switchgear and substations are designed for average domestic us of well under 30 Amps on average.  EVs need to be charged at as high a current as possible or recharging at under 30 Amps takes hours and hours..


Structural issues like the above are neither easy to fix nor cheap nor can they be done in a hurry.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 04, 2017, 11:26:59 AM
Some good points by madasafish. The marketing people at Toyota have cottoned on to this in pushing their hybrid cars, the advert for the Yaris Hybrid sees it driving past an EV charge point covered in cobwebs. There's another item I picked up where they had recorded maximum test drives conducted in EV only mode so they can see that buyers who might well be concerned about air quality and/or climate change together with fuel economy can be turned away from full EV's at least until the joke charging network is improved and it is a joke.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: auntyneddy on October 04, 2017, 12:07:17 PM
When I started this particular post on the 12th July 2017, I never thought it would produce the amount of discussion it has.
Two points I would like to stir the pot with, when J Clakson tested some BMW highbrid??????? allegedly giving some fantastic mileage per gallon, he was very upset as I believe he found the car did little more to the gallon than the standard  equivalent BMW. Now Jocko, a VW surely you as a canny Scott are not going to fall for yet another VW sleight of hand?
Perhaps this will get another few months of controversy.
I might be deaf I might be a miserable ol git but I can still indulge in a bit of mixing.
The Middle East and  the ICE manufacturers are never going down without a fight. Oh of course they will all pay lip service but when money comes into the equation only the wealthy( the large worldwide producers) will survive it's the law of averages. Whether it will be EV's or something else.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 04, 2017, 12:20:29 PM
Just expanding on what auntyneddy says above, I sometimes watch YouTube videos by an Australian called John Cadogan. He doesn't mince his words and can be quite funny. He did a hilarious review of the Mitsubishi Plug in Hybrid and claimed that the official mpg figures were bent to the point of corruption. He made the very valid point that when it was not in EV mode it was spectacularly inefficient as it was lugging an internal combustion engine, an electric motor and a heavy battery around. Of course it was slightly unfair as, if used as they should be used, the petrol motor would only be used on longer trips.

I may have mentioned, as well, that a BMW dealer is on record as saying that many buyers of the BMW plug in hybrid never charged the battery up buying it because the Benefit in Kind tax system was more favourable.

I'm less sure the resistance to EVs - long term - will be as strong as you think though. Some signs that oil companies are starting to move into the EV charging market. A light bulb has gone on. Shell will be charging 49 pence per unit of electricity as opposed to a typical 14 pence domestic unit.

Kerrching! - you can almost hear the finance director saying.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 04, 2017, 12:31:07 PM


I may have mentioned, as well, that a BMW dealer is on record as saying that many buyers of the BMW plug in hybrid never charged the battery up buying it because the Benefit in Kind tax system was more favourable.

I'm less sure the resistance to EVs - long term - will be as strong as you think though. Some signs that oil companies are starting to move into the EV charging market. A light bulb has gone on. Shell will be charging 49 pence per unit of electricity as opposed to a typical 14 pence domestic unit.

Kerrching! - you can almost hear the finance director saying.

A viable EV charging network is going to cost serious money and will have to be paid for somehow, it should not be down to bottomless pocket of taxpayer or people that use electrical power for reasons other than charging EV to continue subsidizing EV users.

I look forward to the day when the EV hype settles down and honeymoon period is over and users pay full cost of buying and running their vehicle, without subsidies,  only then will we get the full picture and a level playing field, and be able to make a rational decision.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 04, 2017, 01:26:11 PM
Now Jocko, a VW surely you as a canny Scot are not going to fall for yet another VW sleight of hand?
I wouldn't trust Volkswagen as far as I could throw them, but the range was that achieved  by Jonny Smith of "Fully Charged", and he did say that after years of lying to us, VW finally appeared to be telling the truth regarding the real world range of the e-Golf.
I am not drawn to a hybrid. If you are going to have an ICE then why bother with the weight of a battery and electric motor too. I'd rather stick with a conventional car.
When I move over to the south side of Edinburgh I fancy an EV for the short trips around the city and to the shops. I'll have a drive and garage/workshop, I want to put PV's on the roof, and who knows, if funds permit, I may even go for a Powerwall.
However, between now and then, something better may come along. Honda may offer a Jazz EV. Or perhaps autonomous vehicles, you call up instead of own, may take over. Or I may even have to give up driving altogether! Who knows what the future may hold for us.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 04, 2017, 02:54:52 PM
http://www.msn.com/en-gb/cars/news/ford-plans-to-shift-focus-to-suvs-and-evs/ar-AAsSVvN?li=AA8sb7&ocid=spartandhp

Ford planning big move away from traditional cars. Hybrids and EVs dominating future line ups.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 04, 2017, 03:01:36 PM


I may have mentioned, as well, that a BMW dealer is on record as saying that many buyers of the BMW plug in hybrid never charged the battery up buying it because the Benefit in Kind tax system was more favourable.

I'm less sure the resistance to EVs - long term - will be as strong as you think though. Some signs that oil companies are starting to move into the EV charging market. A light bulb has gone on. Shell will be charging 49 pence per unit of electricity as opposed to a typical 14 pence domestic unit.

Kerrching! - you can almost hear the finance director saying.

A viable EV charging network is going to cost serious money and will have to be paid for somehow, it should not be down to bottomless pocket of taxpayer or people that use electrical power for reasons other than charging EV to continue subsidizing EV users.

I look forward to the day when the EV hype settles down and honeymoon period is over and users pay full cost of buying and running their vehicle, without subsidies,  only then will we get the full picture and a level playing field, and be able to make a rational decision.

Subsidies, of one sort or another, are involved in almost all energy production - especially nuclear. There is, in my view, a very strong case for subsidies to stop dirty vehicles polluting our towns and cities.

Or, alternatively, punitive congestion charges. The change needs to be pushed and pushed hard.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 04, 2017, 03:04:57 PM
Sorry - was going to put this link in above. IMF measurement of fossil fuel industry subsidies. Mind blowing sums to prop up the oil and other industries.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/may/18/fossil-fuel-companies-getting-10m-a-minute-in-subsidies-says-imf
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 04, 2017, 03:10:07 PM
Ford planning big move away from traditional cars. Hybrids and EVs dominating future line ups.
I was surprised when I saw it on the early morning news that they were shifting away from cars and concentrating on SUVs and trucks. I assume that Ford Europe won't be making such a dramatic shift.
Wonder how Trump will feel about the new North American Focus being built in China!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 04, 2017, 03:48:09 PM
Sorry - was going to put this link in above. IMF measurement of fossil fuel industry subsidies. Mind blowing sums to prop up the oil and other industries.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/may/18/fossil-fuel-companies-getting-10m-a-minute-in-subsidies-says-imf


Oil exploration is an expensive business, a company may drill many potential sites in far flung and remote locations at vast expense  before they actually strike oil. Also people think we use oil just for powering vehicles, when oil products are used for a myriad of things, whether it be plastics, tarmac for roads, paint, fertilizer, medicine etc. etc. So just to get things straight, just because we don't need oil for cars does not mean we can stop drilling and refining it, we are so dependent on it for so many things including air travel and ships.

Subsidies for wind power are bad use of good money, as wind adds very little to our grid capacity as it is too variable and makes directly connecting it to the grid almost impossible, it has to be used indirectly via pumped storage or similar and still only produces on average 20% of its installed capacity.

My problem is that EV are directly subsidized , be it via company car tax rates ( and as BMW say, many drivers never plug battery in, just have the car to save tax) direct subsidy by taxpayer of price of EV, and subsidy by other consumers of electrical power, and if local authorities are expected to provide charging points, that will be further subsidy paid for out of council taxes.  Tesla have received a lot of taxpayer money, which is probably why they can offer free charging for their EV, otherwise their business model would be even more shaky than it appears to be.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 04, 2017, 05:04:24 PM
As I am typing this 21.7% of the UK's energy is coming from wind and 20.5 from nuclear. Figures courtesy of
http://gridwatch.co.uk/ (http://gridwatch.co.uk/)
So surely wind deserves every bit as much of a subsidy as nuclear does?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 04, 2017, 05:40:06 PM
As I am typing this 21.7% of the UK's energy is coming from wind and 20.5 from nuclear. Figures courtesy of
http://gridwatch.co.uk/ (http://gridwatch.co.uk/)
So surely wind deserves every bit as much of a subsidy as nuclear does?

The difference is that the nuclear power is reliably available 24/7/365 and is easy to manage,  combined gas power stations (waste of valuable gas that would be more efficiently used in other ways, but that is another matter) are another base load steadfast supply, but react quicker to changing demands than nuclear. Until cheap load levelling mass storage  (salt water batteries or similar) are available both wind and solar will be problematic to people who to balance the grid to ensure reliable supplies to consumers.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 04, 2017, 05:53:56 PM
Looking at yesterdays graph, nuclear and wind power are pretty constant for the full 24 hours, with CCGT taking up the slack. A very interesting site.
(https://i.imgur.com/y8EgaHw.png)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 04, 2017, 05:59:05 PM
Looking at last months average on same site tells a story, wind almost disappeared on some days.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 04, 2017, 06:01:13 PM
Looking at last months average on same site tells a story, wind almost disappeared on some days.
Agreed. But when wind is available it means we don't have to burn oil, so they all have their worth.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 04, 2017, 10:28:08 PM
I agree Jocko. We need a balanced portfolio of energy supplies and renewables can be a major part of that. They have one great advantage over fossil fuels and that is that they will never run out.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 05, 2017, 10:21:26 AM
Everything you read about wind and solar PV power (unless it is from the raving lunatic I love wind at any cost green party manifesto) says that every wind turbine and PV solar panel  needs 100% backup from either coal, gas or nuclear (ie the reliable sources)  because without being able to store energy from those sources to cover windless and cloudy days (more than one day, in other words medium term storage ) they are severely handicapped.  On a lightly clouded day PV solar can be reduced to less than 10% of rated output,  and below about 30mph wind turbine output drops off very rapidly.  Germany has less wind than UK (UK is one of the windier places, most suitable for wind turbines) but to placate the greenies Germany has installed lots of turbines, and they produce over a year about 18 % of their rated (installed) capacity,  UK even with our more steady wind averages a heady 21% of installed capacity actually produced.   I really feel sorry for the people who have the ever more complicated job of integrating renewables without any storage to level output into our grid,  it's like trying to run a business where often on some days most of your workers may not turn up and the ones that do will often be found sleeping at their desk, you would soon be advertising for 'reliable' staff,  and that is when the agency sends around the fossil and nuclear workers,  and boy, would you be glad to employ them (even though some of them smell and others wear a lead overcoat).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 05, 2017, 11:41:14 AM
Gridwatch.co.uk has been updated since yesterday(!) and now has a meter showing % renewables.
http://gridwatch.co.uk/ (http://gridwatch.co.uk/)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: auntyneddy on October 05, 2017, 04:14:26 PM
There is something truly weird about the whole energy industry.
Some years back I had the fortune to go around Dungeness Nuclear Power station. I did have some reservations but apart form the waste problem I cannot see why Nuclear is such a problem with some people. Safety was paramount and when we left we all had to be checked. Well my size 10's didn't go all the way into the measuring machinery and off went the alarm, yes of course there are those that would say it was a gimmick.
Moving on some years and now EDF is building a new nuclear station in Somerset at some incredible subsidy to the French and Chinese.  This must be manna to the ears of the renewable lobby. Recently having had enough of EDF and their eternal price rises I changed my supplier. Supposedly easy but EDF had other ideas.
What makes me smile is that the company I have gone to, claim their supplies come from all renewables. How they work out their costs I know not as the difference in price  tween EDF and them is considerable. This of course makes me a hypocrite as I do despair with the endless wind farms and solar farms despoiling the Cornish countryside. BUT living in an all electric house I need the power.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 05, 2017, 07:01:47 PM
What makes me smile is that the company I have gone to, claim their supplies come from all renewables. How they work out their costs I know not as the difference in price  tween EDF and them is considerable. This of course makes me a hypocrite as I do despair with the endless wind farms and solar farms despoiling the Cornish countryside. BUT living in an all electric house I need the power.

Makes me smile as well, I guess like most houses yours only has one electric cable coming in, and this is fed from main grid, so how can this company supply you with green energy unless they fit a filter to sort out all the electrons that come from non green sources.  It is a bit like changing your water supplier to another one that promises you will only now get water from sustainable renewable sources and it will taste better than your neighbours water, even though you are both supplied from same water main in the street.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 05, 2017, 07:16:44 PM
The company you are paying only buys green electricity, so they are only paying for green electricity. Once it goes into the grid it is all the same. You may even be getting French electricity, if you live in the South East! But at least your money goes towards furthering renewables, even though you could be using "coal electricity".
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 06, 2017, 10:47:45 AM
Yes that's right. Companies buy electricity wholesale and charge you for that. Green tariffs mean that you can be assured none of your money goes to fossil fuel producers but the stuff that comes down the wire is the same for everybody in your area.

Even the big 6 often offer green tariffs undertaking that your dosh goes to renewables. Ecotricity is interesting in terms of gas because they are a producer and are putting gas made from grass, yes grass, into the grid.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: auntyneddy on October 06, 2017, 12:29:07 PM
Thank you gentlemen Yes I know it all comes down the same cable!!!!!!!!!!!! As far as I know the only LOCAL generating outfit is in Plymouth and that is run on gas.
I know not if it is general but here all power is actually 'supplied' by Western Power Distribution who on occasion we have had to contact over problems. We were plagued with power cuts 10 in one day. About 30metres away is a distribution cabinet. Along would come a man and another in separate vehicle and one would done great big gloves and go in and reset the fuse. Well we all got fed up with continuous power cuts and they found a broken cable outside our bungalow. Poor installation. Several cases since.
Western Power have ALWAYS been helpful and polite. When we changed 'supplier' we were told to contact Western Power Supply. That is a hint about the same 'Lectric' going down the line.
Seriously if it wasn't for the National Grid and people like Western Power we would be in a state if we had to rely on people like EDF to actually physically supply the power. AS to Water we have NO choice just pay an awful lot of money to South West Water for lousy water. If you complain  all you get is the water is of drinkable quality!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!2017 and our water is gravity fed from a cistern on a hill far away,which in turn is fed from Meldon reservoir. When they built Meldon there was considerable concern about the arsenic mines that surround the are. This of course was discounted. The joke is between the cistern and Meldon is a whopping great reservoir, no we can't have that it's for Plymouth. that's progress.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 06, 2017, 02:01:42 PM
Interesting article on the news today. Researchers at Rice University, a private research university located on a 295-acre campus in Houston, have found that using carbon derived from bitumen in the making of Lithium batteries allows them to charge 10 to 20 times faster. It also reduces the formation of the deposits that limit the life of the battery.
A battery, built this way, can be charged from zero to full charged in 5 minutes.
Once this is fully developed it brings the prospect of charging your battery in little more than it takes to top up with petrol or diesel.
It does not get round the infrastructure problems, nor the fact that to charge that quickly requires extremely high voltage or current (or both), but these are issues they will overcome in time. It may be that a charging station will be supplied by a high voltage 3 phase supply (as factories are now), which will be used to charge permanent battery or super-capacitor installations. These storage devices will be able to rapidly dump the 100 kW or whatever the car requires, almost instantly. A bit like the way NASCAR teams rapidly fill their cars with fuel. Fill the can with a normal pump, dump it in the car in seconds.
(https://cdn-2.motorsport.com/static/img/mgl/2500000/2550000/2551000/2551400/2551482/s8/nascar-cup-daytona-500-2015-refueling.jpg)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-41523653 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-41523653)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 06, 2017, 05:09:39 PM
Yes that's right. Companies buy electricity wholesale and charge you for that. Green tariffs mean that you can be assured none of your money goes to fossil fuel producers but the stuff that comes down the wire is the same for everybody in your area.

Even the big 6 often offer green tariffs undertaking that your dosh goes to renewables. Ecotricity is interesting in terms of gas because they are a producer and are putting gas made from grass, yes grass, into the grid.

So another case of 'renewables' being propped up by 'reliables' because whether your 'green' power supplier gives money to fossil or nuclear generators the fact is that you are probably reliant on fossil / nuclear for a 24/7/365 supply. On hols in Cornwall today and went past a few windfarms today, including Goonhilly, needless to say (and far too common) non of the turbines rotating.

If these shonky operators are selling green power, then when no green power is available their customers should go without, otherwise they should have to calculate how much 'conventional' electricity they relied on to supply their customers and give that amount to the reliable providers - otherwise it's all smoke and mirrors.

As for making gas from grass, IMHO grass is for cows to eat to make milk and steaks, it is not a good use of arable land to grow grass to supply gas, that way lies madness.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 06, 2017, 05:17:13 PM
Interesting.

I wonder how the charging/range conundrum will pan out over the next few years. The more range the car has, the less the need to charge on the move. I realise that's stating the obvious but it's this current generation of EVs where the issue is critical.

A petrol head who has made the leap to electric cars is Quentin Willson - Top Gear main presenter pre Clarkson - you know - when it was about cars.

His advocacy is based entirely on air quality rather than climate change but he has been pestering Nissan for some time about the provision of uprated batteries for existing cars. Interestingly I've read various accounts on why this can't be done from marketing issues to technical but when he has put them on the spot they have not denied that uprating the battery should, and is, technically possible. Willson make the very valid point that people won't make the switch in the next few years if they think their car will be obsolete as soon as they get it - as he says - 2040 is a long long way in the future - people who change every 3 years might expect to own 7 cars in that time.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 06, 2017, 05:24:16 PM


So another case of 'renewables' being propped up by 'reliables' because whether your 'green' power supplier gives money to fossil or nuclear generators the fact is that you are probably reliant on fossil / nuclear for a 24/7/365 supply. On hols in Cornwall today and went past a few windfarms today, including Goonhilly, needless to say (and far too common) non of the turbines rotating.

If these shonky operators are selling green power, then when no green power is available their customers should go without, otherwise they should have to calculate how much 'conventional' electricity they relied on to supply their customers and give that amount to the reliable providers - otherwise it's all smoke and mirrors.

As for making gas from grass, IMHO grass is for cows to eat to make milk and steaks, it is not a good use of arable land to grow grass to supply gas, that way lies madness.


I think that's wrong on several counts. Your "reliables" are anything but - they will run out and as more marginal sources are mined or extracted the environmental costs will get higher and higher. There is already robust resistance to fracking especially where it is due to take place and that resistance is not from the usual suspects alone. People don't want this stuff.

The gas from grass initiative - launched by Ecotricity - does not involve any arable land, whatsoever, being used. Dale Vince and Ecotricity are applying to build grass mills wherever the fossil fuel industry tries to frack. Marginal grass lands will provide all the gas needed. This is on the assumption that electricity generation becomes wholly carbon neutral in time.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 06, 2017, 05:31:21 PM
Scotland has announced this week that the current ban of fracking will continue indefinitely and that Underground Coal Gasification will also be banned.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TG on October 06, 2017, 05:45:33 PM
.... unless they fit a filter to sort out all the electrons that come from non green sources.
I realise you are only poking the wasps nest but it's very easy; we have this with one of our properties - the supplier only buys from renewable sources.  The generation mix is chosen by each supplier quite freely, but there are targets to meet versus levies to pay. 
--
TG
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 06, 2017, 05:48:38 PM
There is enough coal still in the ground to last an awful long time, same with oil and gas,  also USA has enough of the atomic stuff in storage to generate all their electrical power needs for over 700 years, and they have enough left over to nuke north korea many times over.

USA and Canada are nett exporters of oil and gas due to fracking and shale. This has bought OPEC to heel and oil prices have plummeted, Saudi wants to undercut
North American  cost of production by keeping oil flowing at low price.

Unfortunately it is too common a site in UK (one of the windiest and most suitable for wind power in Europe, if not the world) to drive past windfarms where the turbines are playing statues. The only way we can reliably have EV is to build another 20 nuclear power stations,  anything else is just dreaming.

As for making biomethane from grass, it is calculated that over 60% of UK agricultural land would be required, this does not include the land needed to house the digesters and pipelines. The Co2 released converting gas to burnable quality is being ignored by ecotricity as are a lot of other things,  no such thing as a free lunch.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 06, 2017, 05:50:03 PM
There is not a lot of wind or solar energy being generated today. We are buying almost as much from France at the moment.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TG on October 06, 2017, 05:53:28 PM
Toshiba claim a new battery composition can give 300km range on a 6 minute charge.
http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2017_10/pr0301.htm

The new battery also offers high energy density and ultra-rapid recharging characteristics, and its titanium niobium oxide anode is much less likely to experience lithium metal deposition during ultra-rapid recharging or recharging in cold conditions—a cause of battery degradation and internal short circuiting.
".... maintains over 90% of its initial capacity after being put through 5,000 charge/discharge cycles, and ultra-rapid recharging can be done in cold conditions, with temperatures as low as minus 10°C, in only ten minutes."

・New battery realizes driving range of electric vehicles boosted to 320km on 6-minute, ultra-rapid recharge, triple that possible with current lithium-ion battery.
・New anode material, titanium niobium oxide achieves double the capacity of the anode of current lithium-ion batteries.

--
TG
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 06, 2017, 06:01:44 PM
Storage solutions are improving exponentially and as it does the market for conventional hydrocarbon powered vehicles, electricity generation and therefore oil production will diminish.
Canada has ditched plans to build two huge pipelines. Lots of reasons given but fundamentally the money men don't want to get lumbered with massive depreciating assets. Canada's oil is not cheap to produce and with the increasing solar, wind and tidal production, oil is fast becoming cheaper, and who wants to buy expensive Canadian oil when Saudi Arabia is giving it way.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 06, 2017, 06:04:55 PM
Five year price of oil.
(http://proxy.markets.businessinsider.com/cst/MarketsInsiderV2/Share/chart.aspx?instruments=300002,5,0,333&style=instrument_double_precision&period=FiveYears&timezone=Eastern%20Standard%20Time)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on October 06, 2017, 07:00:43 PM
There is not a lot of wind or solar energy being generated today. We are buying almost as much from France at the moment.
And that's most likely being generated by nuclear power stations!

I'd like to see some of the small modular reactors being built. They are expected to produce power at significantly lower cost than Hinkley Point C http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/09/09/go-ahead-mini-reactors-energy-crunch-looms/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/09/09/go-ahead-mini-reactors-energy-crunch-looms/).

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 06, 2017, 10:00:20 PM
A brilliant piece on Tidal energy just been posted on Fully Charged.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEQQl-qpkCc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEQQl-qpkCc)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: auntyneddy on October 07, 2017, 11:34:18 AM
One of the first wind farms certainly in Cornwall was built on Laneast Down a few miles from Launceston. I have never seen all turbines working. A few years back a turbine blade fell off fortunately these turbines are quite small and away from the road.
Just up the road alongside the A388 three turbines were erected, they are quite large and very close to the road. It appears they have been erected for a chicken farm but now that they are operational we now have some form of 'eco' holiday village.  I do not like these great turbines close to a road, it makes me feel very vulnerable. It is not just a case of a blade falling off it's the fact that will probably bounce or cartwheel
As to coal, I hope I remember correctly but some years back when the question of energy was becoming a talking point it was written that GB is sitting on 400 yrs of supply. I am just reading a book about the steam locomotive and it's workings and it has shown to me the problems allied to production of steam for powering machinery BUT what has happened to the work on cleaning coal emissions? It seems we are being subjected to the old political correctness. Closing coal power stations prior to end of life buying coal from Australia. What happened to the geo thermic work in west Cornwall?  Even the other night they were talking of the Lizard where the serpentine rock is the result of the earths crust being comparatively thin there. When will it all end? Basically it is all down to money, in my opinion not lack of it but not enough can be made by the greedy few who control everything. No I am not a communist they are just as bad, Whats mine is mine and whats your is mine too!!!!!!!!! I am just a member of joe public at the end of his years who just wants to be warm and fed and secure, all impossible it seems judging by the way the people that control us are carrying on.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 07, 2017, 12:15:20 PM
It might not be fashionable amongst some circles to say it but I think nuclear power will be an essential component for many years to come and we absolutely can't just stop using fossil fuels at the drop of a hat. Long term we need to though both on environmental grounds but also on security of supply.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinS on October 07, 2017, 01:28:07 PM
It might not be fashionable amongst some circles to say it but I think nuclear power will be an essential component for many years to come and we absolutely can't just stop using fossil fuels at the drop of a hat. Long term we need to though both on environmental grounds but also on security of supply.

I began my working career 46 years ago with the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority (UKAEA).  Why the government stopped investing in this area I do not know.  We could have been world leaders in the technology instead of importing from France.  Politics!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 07, 2017, 02:37:54 PM
Just on this "gas from grass" thing. Ecotricity do not plan to use any land currently used as arable land.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/nov/18/could-gas-from-grass-rival-fracking-to-heat-uk-homes

Also, completely agree with Colin. How we have lost our world leader status in nuclear is criminal on the part of all governments. Hinckley -  built by the French Government's energy arm - EDF - and financed by a communist state - China. It's enough to make you weep.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 07, 2017, 10:23:13 PM
Read an interesting article on wind turbines. Usually, when you see them stationary, it is not lack of wind that causes that but too much electricity. Because wind turbines can be shut down readily, the national grid PAYS the operators to shut them down when demand drops. It is known as "Constraint". It is easier to shut down 100 wind turbines than one oil or coal fired station, and certainly a lot easier than shutting down a nuclear power station. The average wind turbine is shut down for 38 days a year for Constraint. The operators are paid around £3M per month to shut them down. The price of going green!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 08, 2017, 11:24:14 AM
Read an interesting article on wind turbines. Usually, when you see them stationary, it is not lack of wind that causes that but too much electricity. Because wind turbines can be shut down readily, the national grid PAYS the operators to shut them down when demand drops. It is known as "Constraint". It is easier to shut down 100 wind turbines than one oil or coal fired station, and certainly a lot easier than shutting down a nuclear power station. The average wind turbine is shut down for 38 days a year for Constraint. The operators are paid around £3M per month to shut them down. The price of going green!

The main problem may be that renewables are so damn unreliable they are an embarrassment and a complication to grid operators,  so when they do generate some power it catches everyone by surprise so it is easier just to not have the power they are offering. The EU has been paying people (including farmers) to do nothing for years, renewables are just an extension of that ethos.

quotes from a couple of articles on renewables.........

As long as you have below 10 percent wind and solar, says Clements Triebel, of the German energy management company Younicos, “nobody notice that you will become any problem at the grid.”

And more than a bit of intermittent power can cause real problems for the grid—worst case, even a blackout. So to keep the grid stable, Germany’s had to slow down the introduction of some new renewable sources. Sometimes,  Triebel says, it even has to shut some wind and solar generators down.
Which, he says, is “a very, very, yeah, stupid situation. But you can imagine if people, knowing more about this situation, they’re running crazy, and they say it’s not what we want.”

While mature economies such as Germany and California have trialed large-scale renewables successfully, these successes weren’t achieved without fossil fuels backing them up. The Energy Information Administration’s Annual Energy Outlook 2017 to 2050 has renewables at only 18-26 percent penetration by 2050. Electric vehicles currently have 1 percent of the market and are projected to have only gained 6 percent by 2040.


Anyone who has any delusions about the place of renewables should read this.....

the opening paragraph says it all really

Humanity is owed a serious investigation of how we have gone so far with the decarbonization project without a serious challenge in terms of engineering reality. – Michael Kelly, Prof. Electrical Engineering, Cambridge

https://www.friendsofscience.org/assets/documents/Renewable-energy-cannot-replace-FF_Lyman.pdf

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 08, 2017, 12:06:30 PM
These are opinions. They may have reasoning behind them but they ARE opinions. There are plenty of opinions saying the exact opposite.

Fossil Fuels will run out. What then?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 08, 2017, 12:08:26 PM
I'm not saying we can do away with fossil fuels, and for every article, paper and argument for them there is an equal and opposite article, paper or argument against. I am not against fossil fuel use, though I am very much against the building of more nuclear energy plants (especially if France and China have a hand in it). In a future confrontation China could melt down our nuclear power plants via a software back door. I'm sure Trump wishes he could do that in NK.
Our energy sources are a national defence and as such only the UK should have control of them.
What I am saying is with the improvements in technology that man is developing we should make use of them, and these include solar power generation and energy storage.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 08, 2017, 12:14:12 PM
Pretty much my take on things Jocko.

I mentioned opinions above. Here are some opinions refuting the opinions quoted by Culzean above.

http://www.greenpeace.org/international/en/campaigns/climate-change/energyrevolution/renewable-energy-myths/

Of course it's Greenpeace and they have an axe to grind but so do many proponents of fossil fuels. The poster boy for the anti green lobby is Matt Ridley. Turns out he had an open cast coalmine on his land and has investments in a company making fracking equipment.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 08, 2017, 12:16:29 PM
These are opinions. They may have reasoning behind them but they ARE opinions. There are plenty of opinions saying the exact opposite.

Fossil Fuels will run out. What then?

This reply came pretty quickly but it takes a while to read a 44 page article properly, they are more than opinions, they are reality at the moment.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 08, 2017, 01:48:31 PM
Pretty much my take on things Jocko.

I mentioned opinions above. Here are some opinions refuting the opinions quoted by Culzean above.

http://www.greenpeace.org/international/en/campaigns/climate-change/energyrevolution/renewable-energy-myths/

Of course it's Greenpeace and they have an axe to grind but so do many proponents of fossil fuels. The poster boy for the anti green lobby is Matt Ridley. Turns out he had an open cast coalmine on his land and has investments in a company making fracking equipment.

They keep banging on about 'smart grids' and stuff,  even the smartest computer cannot draw power from a source that is not making any.  That is what the Cambridge Professor in my link meant,  when he said what he did about engineering reality.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 08, 2017, 03:16:05 PM
I think the elephant in the room here is whether or not you believe in man made climate change. I do. For this reason I support the development of renewable energy sources and also nuclear power as well. When you are on a particular side of this debate a thing called confirmation bias kicks in. I'm probably guilty of this as much as the next person.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 08, 2017, 03:22:26 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friends_of_Science

These people are funded by the fossil fuel industry. Confirmation bias. Not to be trusted IMO but then not everybody trusts the other side.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: auntyneddy on October 08, 2017, 04:20:54 PM
Which ever side of the fence you come down on there is one problem which  I do not know if it has been fixed.
When I was a village bobby we had every so often to test the alarms in our offices. These gave us warning of a nuclear attack.  The signal was transmitted along telephone lines. Numerous bobbies far cleverer than I asked the question If there is a nuclear attack what happens to the phone lines? Usual answer don't ask stupid questions.
I can remember when  the western world laughed at the Russians because they the Russians still had old technology in their aircraft etc. Then someone woke up to the pulse that comes after a nuclear explosion which would destroy ALL  computers etc.
Now everything we use depend on and need is run by computers but I have never found out if the 'Pulse' problem has ever been resolved. Moving on the modern times, if NK gets it's way all the wind power solar panels power stations won't be  worth diddly squat. I don't think the public were ever shown the effect of a nuclear blast on the infrastructure, people etc as it was  decided to be too frightening. The world is getting to be a very fragile place because man wants to be top dog over his fellow man. We are fortunate in the West as we have much BUT for how long? It is always a case of the grass is greener and the hordes are looking at our perfect life. Yes we need energy but why can't the experts wake up and stop arguing about who is right over how we  produce the energy we need .Perhaps the EV is the answer BUT I understand the production of electricity is very inefficient so perhaps we should concentrate on making the production more efficient and less wasteful.  Just to really throw a spanner in the works. There are those that condemn Nuclear power and then spend thousands to get to lay on a beach soaking up  sunlight.  Miserable git aint I.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 08, 2017, 05:35:45 PM
The EMP from a nuclear blast is still a problem but has a very limited range from a ground detonated explosion (the NK tests have no effect other than in the detonation area). The problem lies with high altitude detonations, where a large area south of the detonation position would be affected. Lots of the effects are temporary. Modern electronics, particularly military equipment, are not as susceptible as the early solid state equipment.
I too believe that man made climate change is affecting the world. I watched a scientist, on the news today, talking about how climate change is causing the sea temperatures to rise, which lead to greater evaporation, which in turn create bigger and stronger storms. And this year's hurricane season is testament to that.
On a totally different tack, Australia is looking at changing the law so that it will not be an offence for a drunk driver to be in charge of an autonomous vehicle. It will be considered like being in a taxi. Other governments are looking at similar changes. I would imagine this will only pertain to Level 4 and 5 vehicles, not the driver's aids we have at present.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinS on October 08, 2017, 07:34:24 PM
Why are we talking about a nuclear blast within the context of power generation?  It is physically impossible for a power station to undergo a nuclear explosion.  Such could only occur if fissile material were forced to a critical mass within a minute period of time.  Not possible in a nuclear reactor.

The worry would be a conventional detonation causing fissile material to be released into the atmosphere, but this is a totally new topic.  Lets not go there.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 08, 2017, 08:01:39 PM
We are not talking about a blast in a nuclear power station. We are discussing the effect of a nuclear weapon being detonated, and its effect on the grid, or at least, that was my belief.
"Countryfile", this evening, had some interesting stuff on power generation, fracking, and solar energy storage.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 09, 2017, 07:07:01 AM
Just re-watched the section of "Countryfile" where they looked at solar energy. They said that farmers tend to be early adopters of technology, if it will save them a bob or two, and solar was one such technology. The farm they visited was self sufficient for energy having a large solar array and storage. The presenter asked, "are these the batteries". and it was pointed out that batteries were a dirty word and they were "energy storage machines". There were about 3 or 4 container sized units. They went to great length to point out that the area used for the solar arrays was not wasted, as it was also used to graze sheep. They were selling excess energy, surplus to their own requirements, to the grid.
The point of the piece was to show that those that could make use of large arrays (farmers, warehouse companies, supermarkets and such), were adopting solar, and that was freeing up electricity for the charging of EVs. However, as often stated here, how the infrastructure will be adapted to accommodate charging was not discussed.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: auntyneddy on October 09, 2017, 08:46:22 AM
I fully intended to apologise for my outburst, it was a very bad 'BLACK DOG' day.
How ever it seems as always Jazzers have taken it in their stride. Yes I was talking about a Nuclear conflagration. Nuclear power stations would of course be affected but then that would be the least of our worries. It is not only NK that is worrying. BUT of course we are talking here about EV and the where withal to have enough capacity to power them. So I apologise for straying so far off subject.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 09, 2017, 10:15:27 AM
In UK we probably have more 'land owners' than farmers,  because growing crops, milk and animals is a very, very low margin business and people who own land can get subsidies for 'setting aside' (ie doing nothing with the land except grow flowers that are considered weeds on farmland, but are not part of human food chain) they can get subsidies for solar and wind infrastructure on their land, along with generous feed in tariffs so why wouldn't they do it ?  The average age of a UK farmer is over 60,  so pretty soon we will not have any farmers as such - just people to go around cleaning solar panels and collecting dead birds and bats from under wind turbines.

We grow less than 50% of the food we consume in UK,  most of the imported stuff no doubt arrives in smelly ships burning diesel or thick black sulphurous bunker oil, or on planes burning kerosene, we have outsourced our farming  in the same way we outsourced our industry, which means we can claim to be 'greener'  because all those nasty smelly things now take place on other peoples land (lamb from New Zealand, apples from South Africa or Chile or New Zealand,  milk from heaven knows where),  while we install solar panels and wind turbines - tokenism at its finest.

here is a quote from former director of Greenpeace.......

Notable Quote
•   I had no idea that after I left they would evolve into a band of scientific illiterates…. Clearly, my former Greenpeace colleagues are either not reading the morning paper or simply don’t care about the truth.
John Passacantando

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 09, 2017, 10:18:34 AM
Notable Quote
•   I had no idea that after I left they would evolve into a band of scientific illiterates…. Clearly, my former Greenpeace colleagues are either not reading the morning paper or simply don’t care about the truth.
John Passacantando

What's that got to do with the price of fish?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 09, 2017, 10:34:07 AM
Culzean has a point about the way we have outsourced so much agricultural production. There is a huge amount to be said for more localism.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 09, 2017, 11:40:35 AM
It is over 100 years since Britain has been able to grow our own food. The population is just too large. Add to that the fact we can import food cheaper and it is understandable why we import so much. Britain has priced herself out of the market in many cases. We, the buying public, want to buy goods cheaply, the supermarkets want to sell to us, and if rubbish Granny Smiths are cheaper from Bulgaria than here (never mind what they taste like), they will buy them and we will be stuck with them. (Mind you, Granny Smiths originally came from Australia!)
It is the same with holidays. I often go away for a long weekend, somewhere in the UK, and I could have 10 days in the sun for a similar price (well I could before the £ fell).
As for the average age of farmers. The average age of the UK population is over 40 now and getting older. There are plenty young farmers, just their fathers are still living and owning the farms. We are not going to run out of farmers.
As an aside, the Scottish government is stepping in to buy up butter, to protect commercial bakers and the like. The reason there is a butter shortage is because farmers are shying away from milk production. And the reason for that is the fact the supermarkets have depressed the price of milk so low, farmers cannot make a living from producing it.
No one can blame a farmer for turning his land over for solar and wind turbines. They need to make a living and a return on their investment (the land) so if farming, per se, doesn't pay, then why not energy production.
It all stems from government policy since before the Great War.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 09, 2017, 12:59:21 PM
Notable Quote
•   I had no idea that after I left they would evolve into a band of scientific illiterates…. Clearly, my former Greenpeace colleagues are either not reading the morning paper or simply don’t care about the truth.
John Passacantando

What's that got to do with the price of fish?

Pretty much my take on things Jocko.

I mentioned opinions above. Here are some opinions refuting the opinions quoted by Culzean above.

http://www.greenpeace.org/international/en/campaigns/climate-change/energyrevolution/renewable-energy-myths/

Of course it's Greenpeace and they have an axe to grind but so do many proponents of fossil fuels. The poster boy for the anti green lobby is Matt Ridley. Turns out he had an open cast coalmine on his land and has investments in a company making fracking equipment.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 09, 2017, 01:17:57 PM
As for the average age of farmers. The average age of the UK population is over 40 now and getting older. There are plenty young farmers, just their fathers are still living and owning the farms. We are not going to run out of farmers.

Quote from a Guardian article below in italics......
(we all know that teachers are the last people on earth qualified to give careers advice to children as many of them have never really left the school environment and ventured into the real world). Many older farmers are unable to leave farming due to the shaky position of their finances, especially if they do not own the land they farm.

"Many of those who guide school children in their choice of career are unaware of the challenges and opportunities that agriculture offers – not only to those who are practical and interested in technology and engineering, but to science students interested in animal and plant breeding, nutrition, and soil management.

A report by the Royal Agricultural Society of England used the often-quoted statistic that the average age of a British farmer is 59 to predict a pressing requirement for 60,000 new farmers to replace those who will shortly leave the industry. Figures from Eurostat and CEJA, the European Council of Young Farmers, point out that the percentage of farmers under 35 in the UK has fallen from 16% in 1990 to 2.8% in 2016. It is clear that a steady supply of able, young entrants is needed to meet the challenges mentioned above."
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 09, 2017, 01:53:06 PM
A report by the Royal Agricultural Society of England used the often-quoted statistic[/i]
I am very sceptical of statistics. I know how lobby groups can manipulate them and the old adage, "Lies, damned lies, and statistics", attributed to Benjamin Disraeli springs to mind.
I don't know, and I believe you don't know either, whether their definition of a farmer is the dictionary definition of "a farmer" as someone who owns or takes care of a farm, or someone who has studied and trained in farming. If it is the first instance, then there will be very few young men who own farms or even manage them, however, the second definition covers a far greater field (no pun intended).
Much though I hate quoting The Guardian for anything, according to this article
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/mar/31/agriculture-uk-fastest-growing-subject-career-student-farmers (https://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/mar/31/agriculture-uk-fastest-growing-subject-career-student-farmers)
agriculture is the fastest growing subject at universities in the UK.
As I say, for every person/group/lobbyist saying black, there is another person/group/lobbyist saying white.
We all have our opinions, right or wrong.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 09, 2017, 01:56:11 PM
One thing I'd like to clarify. Is this the five minute argument or the ten minute argument?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 09, 2017, 06:11:03 PM
I see that the BBC has cottoned on to the fact that the Scottish government announced, last week, that plans were soon to be announced for the "electrification" of the A9, with areas with charging points being installed, making it Scotland's first "electric highway".
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 09, 2017, 07:56:45 PM
That will be a big step forward Jocko. The A roads need chargers especially these longer stretches in the countryside.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 09, 2017, 09:14:22 PM
Lots of highland roads have big lay-bys so you can stop and picnic or make a toilet stop. They intend building more and then putting chargers in them all. They will stretch all the way to Scrabster, which has a ferry terminal for the Orkneys.
There are quite a lot of charging stations on the A9 already, or at least in the towns just off the A9, but putting more on the road itself will be a big help for visitors.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on October 10, 2017, 09:40:53 AM
I went past a sign for a Tesla supercharger on Sunday, never seen one of those before.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TG on October 10, 2017, 03:16:40 PM
Thought there was a Tesla S in my London parking structure yesterday, sadly on closer inspection it was just a Maserati.
--
TG
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 11, 2017, 12:08:05 PM
Couple of quotes on Artificial intelligence (the stuff that autonomous cars need )

"Success in creating AI would be the greatest event in human history. Unfortunately it may be the last...”
Stephen Hawking

“I don’t understand why some people are not concerned.”
Bill Gates

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 11, 2017, 02:35:46 PM
Quite true. When AI overtakes humans in every aspect, we are "all doomed". Doesn't stop AI being better at driving than us though. That shouldn't be difficult!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 11, 2017, 07:50:44 PM
I think the warnings about AI are worth paying attention to. We are going to end up like vegetables - unable to do anything - it's a major deskilling. I'm no boy racer - never have been - but driving a car to the best of your ability can be satisfying.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 11, 2017, 08:19:16 PM
I spent a large portion of working life installing and programming automation in car factories, one of the operators who was being made redundant by robots put his finger on it.  He just said "you do realise a robot is never going to buy a car".   Or buy anything else for that matter - we are sleepwalking into an era (or should that be error ?) where more and more of the technology that controls our lives is made and owned by fewer and fewer people and large corporations,  from agriculture (GMO with seeds that don't grow next year) to internet and phones,  and soon it will be cars.   Many experts predict (the law of unintended consequences) that autonomous vehicles will increase traffic because empty cars will join the traffic flow and when people no longer have to drive they will find jobs further from  where they live and work in the car (unless they are having to share the ride with others).

And soon as peteo48 says,  we will all be mindless, de-skilled humans with very little to do (it's all done for you) and 'the devil makes work for idle hands'.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on October 12, 2017, 11:04:06 AM
one of the operators who was being made redundant by robots put his finger on it.  He just said "you do realise a robot is never going to buy a car".

My kids are at an age where they have to make a choice as to what career path to follow. I am gently trying to steer them towards careers which are less likely to face oblivion. Eldest wants to be a vet, which is not so bad, youngest has a scientific/technical bent but does not know what he wants to do.

The biggest problem facing future generations is where the money is for these goods and services comes from, when nobody else has a job to pay for them. The Government already preserves millions of jobs that pay less than it cost to live, the current trend to reduce state dependency will fail.

The only answer I can see on the horizon at the moment is a citizen's income.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 12, 2017, 11:20:06 AM
one of the operators who was being made redundant by robots put his finger on it.  He just said "you do realise a robot is never going to buy a car".

My kids are at an age where they have to make a choice as to what career path to follow. I am gently trying to steer them towards careers which are less likely to face oblivion. Eldest wants to be a vet, which is not so bad, youngest has a scientific/technical bent but does not know what he wants to do.

The biggest problem facing future generations is where the money is for these goods and services comes from, when nobody else has a job to pay for them. The Government already preserves millions of jobs that pay less than it cost to live, the current trend to reduce state dependency will fail.

The only answer I can see on the horizon at the moment is a citizen's income.

Which begs the question, where is the money for a citizens income coming from ?

Many people now are on zero hours contracts with minimum wage - this is mainly due to loss of 'proper' (manufacturing) jobs, due to either loss of companies or automation of existing ones.  Just look at voracious Uber,  wants to run a profitable business and pay no tax but will not acknowledge that its 'drivers' (soon to be redundant as well due to Uber driverless cars - ha, ha) are actually employees of the company and should get sick pay, paid holidays and NI contributions paid.  What we have is companies like Uber and Amazon paying no tax, paying lowest wages they can and their 'employees' (zero hours contractors) wages are being topped up by other taxpayers through tax credits, income support etc.

Vets seem to do well,  but I think it is mainly 'small animal' (ie pets) vets,  due to booming pet insurance business the fees that vets can charge has gone through the roof ...... when I look at what vets charge now compared with what they charged when we last had a pet (adjusted for inflation) it is horrendous,  and the number of procedures offered for pets has also multiplied (nose and boob jobs etc LOL).

We are rapidly developing into a 'service industry' world,  full of personal shoppers, personal trainers, financial advisors etc. - with economy dependent on people spending money they haven't got buying goods they don't really need (mainly imported) and house building (many materials also imported). 

Widespread use of AI will only make things worse...................
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 12, 2017, 05:18:42 PM

We are rapidly developing into a 'service industry' world,  full of personal shoppers, personal trainers, financial advisors etc. - with economy dependent on people spending money they haven't got buying goods they don't really need (mainly imported) and house building (many materials also imported). 

Widespread use of AI will only make things worse...................

I guess the issue, in future years, will be how many jobs will be lost to AI - some people think we are only at the start of where it could go. In that scenario, how do you distribute wealth?

(I don't know the answer btw)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: auntyneddy on October 13, 2017, 09:52:04 AM
Until you condition Homo Sapien to stop being greedy, wealth will never be distributed fairly. We have the Indian sub continent, extremely wealthy but still millions of people who live under the starvation line. Girls are still being killed at birth because they bring no wealth. China buying up the world and yet still working on the elite few being in control and if I wrote this in China the light of day would never be seen again.
Man is beset by all sorts of ailments because the human skeleton in thousands of years has never adapted to walking upright. Yes surgeons can help people to walk after horrendous spinal injuries but it must be like lugging a great box around with you. Yes I know it is. I have seen brains and spinal cords after they have been removed from the body and the awesome part is how small they are in comparison to what they do. I feel it will be a very long time before man can duplicate these two organs.
AI might progress to a point BUT it is unlikely in the foreseeable future that the human brain will be superseded. Unfortunately the problem arises because not every one can be a boffin. However, outside my home, not directly outside as I clear my bit of path and gutter but we have shrubs, yes shrubs growing out of the gutter. Every so often along comes a road sweeping machine which merely skates over the top. A man with a shovel and broom is inconceivable in this day and age but he would have not allowed the shrub to grow in the first place. These shrubs have already damaged the road surface so what price progress.  Perhaps we should be learning to walk before we try and run. After all EV's need electricity, our generating capacity is on it's knees according to a report today so do we have a chicken and egg scenario?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: PJ Hall on October 13, 2017, 10:06:28 AM
Gulp! Future is looking pretty bleak, i think I'll hang myself now.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 13, 2017, 10:23:14 AM
We will connect bicycles up to generators and we can all earn our living by pedalling like fury to keep the elite driving their Lucid Airs and Teslas. Problem solved.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: zzaj on October 13, 2017, 10:43:03 AM
The elephant in the room is that the world's population has increased from 1 billion to 7 billion in 200 years and will increase to 15 billion in another 100 years.

Levels of material consumption (and thus pollution waste) have increased by many multiples of that.

The UK population has increased 50% since WW2.

Some (most) African countries populations have increased (exponentially) 3 times in 40 years.

Marx had an answer to income distribution.

You can be assured the investors in AI (which, like electric cars, is by no means new) will only do it for the money.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: JohnAlways on October 13, 2017, 11:36:11 AM
And I see we will no longer be able to have Gas at home (2050) to meet emissions rules!

Using gas for heating and cooking should be banned by 2050, the Government said yesterday. (Daily Mail) I know but it's in print.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 13, 2017, 01:12:11 PM
The elephant in the room is that the world's population has increased from 1 billion to 7 billion in 200 years and will increase to 15 billion in another 100 years.

Levels of material consumption (and thus pollution waste) have increased by many multiples of that.

The UK population has increased 50% since WW2.

Some (most) African countries populations have increased (exponentially) 3 times in 40 years.

Marx had an answer to income distribution.

You can be assured the investors in AI (which, like electric cars, is by no means new) will only do it for the money.

I have always said that over population will destroy the planet long before CO2 / climate change / global warming or whatever it is called these days.  The problem for me is that although global leaders are happy enough to bang on about CO2 etc, (mainly because carbon is taxable) they go a bit quiet about controlling population which is undoubtedly the cause of land degradation, loss of habitat for wild animals,  poverty, famine and drought (caused by deforestation and overgrazing of habitat by domesticated animals - cows, goats etc.)

China has been roundly criticised for imposing a single child policy in the 60's, but their decision was very far sighted in the light of present day world population, but common-sense things that are easy for a dictatorship to do are hard to do in democracies with their pressure groups and lobbyists.

I will take climate change debate seriously when it includes measures to reduce world population growth,  until they we are just tinkering around the edges, and certain people are making lots of money from climate change scare tactics.

Bio-fuel are responsible for the loss off many thousands of square miles of rainforest, and growing corn and sugar cane to make vehicle fuel suggests to me that the inmates have finally taken over the asylum.

EV's wont save the planet but birth control just might.

I find it very ironic that as population explodes, computers and AI are destroying jobs,  a real double whammy.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 13, 2017, 01:22:25 PM
And I see we will no longer be able to have Gas at home (2050) to meet emissions rules!

Using gas for heating and cooking should be banned by 2050, the Government said yesterday. (Daily Mail) I know but it's in print.



Gas burnt in a domestic heating boiler is now over 90% efficient,  if you burn the same gas in a power station and use the electricity to heat the same home the efficiency drops to about 50% - what a waste of precious gas.  Unfortunately the same bureaucrats that convinced everyone that diesel and 100watt kettles would save the planet are still running the show, and still just as capable of making stupid decisions.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 13, 2017, 02:27:04 PM
Gulp! Future is looking pretty bleak, i think I'll hang myself now.

Don't forget to use low carbon rope made using local labour from a 'fairtrade' sustainable environmentally friendly source, transported to UK on a low pollution sailing vessel (feel free to add any buzz words I have forgotten)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: zzaj on October 13, 2017, 02:50:00 PM
And I see we will no longer be able to have Gas at home (2050) to meet emissions rules!

Using gas for heating and cooking should be banned by 2050, the Government said yesterday. (Daily Mail) I know but it's in print.



Gas burnt in a domestic heating boiler is now over 90% efficient,  if you burn the same gas in a power station and use the electricity to heat the same home the efficiency drops to about 50% - what a waste of precious gas.  Unfortunately the same bureaucrats that convinced everyone that diesel and 100watt kettles would save the planet are still running the show, and still just as capable of making stupid decisions.

Note "should".

If a kettle (or vacuum cleaner) needs so much power to complete a given quantity of work, doesn't a lower wattage appliance take commensurately longer to complete the task, thus no energy saving - like with low energy lamp bulbs, you need more central heating to heat a house to a given temperature? (And what is energy saving with central heating, when once upon a time the world lived happily (even gratefully) with one fire and thicker clothes).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 13, 2017, 03:24:02 PM

Note "should".

If a kettle (or vacuum cleaner) needs so much power to complete a given quantity of work, doesn't a lower wattage appliance take commensurately longer to complete the task, thus no energy saving - like with low energy lamp bulbs, you need more central heating to heat a house to a given temperature? (And what is energy saving with central heating, when once upon a time the world lived happily (even gratefully) with one fire and thicker clothes).

What you say is true, the total amount of energy required to raise the temperature of say 1 litre of water from 10degC to 100degC is the same whatever the wattage of the kettle (except if wattage is too low the heat is escaping faster than it is being added and water will never boil),  but in order to reduce the peak  load on our sagging (read renewables) electrical supply they think it is OK to take 10 minutes instead of 2 to boil, - in fact numpties that they are they have probably convinced themselves that it is saving energy.   The latest EU initiative is to introduce low temperature teabags by 2021.

Yeah, I agree about replacing heat that used to be given out by domestic filament bulbs (lights that are mainly used in the winter) with extra gas used by central heating,  The  heat emitted from filament bulbs is only a problem when they are outdoors, where heat is entirely wasted, and the light from a filament bulb is much nicer and more mellow than LED output,  and as for compact flourescent bulbs, they were hopeless, did not have a long life and very polluting to make.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on October 13, 2017, 03:29:19 PM
I agree with Culzean about population growth and I don't know why some people never mention it in the mix of policies that are needed to enable us to survive on the planet. Regardless of your take on Climate Change there is a resource and space issue at the very least.

On the low carbon rope, I read somewhere that you can now buy compostable jeans!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 13, 2017, 04:12:59 PM
My jeans are compostable, especially just before they go in the wash!

The only way to reduce the world's population, unless you go for draconian measures such as compulsory sterilisation or limiting family size (as China tried), is to make contraceptives freely and readily available to all. Most counties that are contributing to the rise in population are poor, and with little access to contraception for all. Most people would happily have smaller families, it is just that they don't have a lot of choice.
The population of the UK is growing, but mainly from immigration rather than by births. There are about 100.000 more births than deaths in the UK each year yet migration increased the population by 273,000 (2015/16).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on October 13, 2017, 07:08:55 PM
Which begs the question, where is the money for a citizens income coming from ?

Well, it's not going to come from taxing working people, because there won't be many of those left.

Most people think this is all in the future, but we are already well along this road. There are millions of jobs which can be done by machine now, and only exist due to subsidy of below subsistence wages. Sooner or later, even these low wages, and the other costs of employment, will exceed the cost of the technology to replace them.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 13, 2017, 07:33:03 PM
If citizens don't have a wage, who will buy the stuff the AI makes? If they cannot sell, how do they buy raw materials? Perhaps everything will be self levelling. Maybe governments will have to tax industry at a high enough rate that they will then be able to give a wage to citizens. All I can say is, I am glad I won't be around long enough to find out.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on October 13, 2017, 11:59:57 PM
All I can say is, I am glad I won't be around long enough to find out.

You never know Jocko, it might come sooner than you think.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 14, 2017, 08:51:21 AM
Love him or hate him, Jeremy Corbyn has just announced some innovative ideas.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41614820 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41614820)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 14, 2017, 09:34:37 AM
Love him or hate him, Jeremy Corbyn has just announced some innovative ideas.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41614820 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41614820)

He is right to criticise Amazon, Uber Yodel, Deliveroo and such companies as we have had parcels delivered after 8pm by very disgruntled and harrassed looking drivers. As for who owns and controls robots it is normally the person who pays the bills that owns and controls something,  but in Corbynworld, who knows. 

A company I was tech manager for used to manufacture semi-automated and fully automated battery assembly lines,  we sold machines to China and you would have thought that with their excess of labour they would want the manual and semi-auto kit,  but no,  they went for the fully auto equipment,  mainly I feel to get their hands on up to date stuff to copy but  they never made anyone redundant at the Peoples #32 battery factory,  the workers took it in turns to press the start button each day and then went back to their tea drinking.  As their labour costs rose they would have to make people redundant.  I feel that Corbyn has such a communist / socialist mindset to have the robots and not sack anyone - and micro-manage industry from his political chair - the poor guy has no concept of how business works (like most of our politicians sadly,  who are either trained as lawyers or accountants).  The people who take the risks / foot the bills say what happens, not some wooly headed politician.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: auntyneddy on October 14, 2017, 12:16:42 PM
Quite some while ago when I had a functioning brain, I tried to better myself with a degree. My first year was dealing with Technology in the form of power generation, people and such allied bits. One thing we did was an experiment on heat. Put one person in a room at a certain temperature, then increase the number of people and the temperature would rise.  So perhaps the thicker jumper is not such a bad idea IF it saves X amount of energy.  It was there and I know things have improved it was stated that production of electricity was not really cost effective. Forgive my memory but I seem to think it was worked out on a ton of coal or X number of cu ft of gas and what came out was something like 30% of input. I am pretty sure those figures are now out of date. However once you had the electricity it was cheaper to move it around the country.
zzaj   questions  this stupid EU rule about lower wattage kettles etc. I have forgotten the formula but if you use less power you need a greater quantity to achieve the end aim.
As to contraceptives to the masses, surely it is not the availability of  contraceptives that is the problem it is the 'need' to produce a son and the more children you have is wealth. Education is what they need and perhaps that nice Mr Blair should have gone out to Africa and the Indian sub continent and banged the drum there. I am purposely not incurring some racial discrimination act by not actually mentioning those people who live on that sub continent that killed and maimed many of our very brave military. YET they
still come here and plague us for housing, money etc. Work you must be joking and to really stuff myself, Nepal, sent their young men to fight for us and all we have done is drop fertilizer from a great height BUT we can give Bangladeshi's money and a hole in the wall card to be used in their own country. Perhaps IF we woke up and used some of the money here to update our electricity production our EV's will be a thing of fact.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on October 14, 2017, 05:03:15 PM
Love him or hate him, Jeremy Corbyn has just announced some innovative ideas.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41614820 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41614820)

Somebody needs to start thinking differently.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on October 14, 2017, 05:18:42 PM
"Let workers control robots" Says Corbyn.

A way to ensure no-one invests in robots in UK..

Robots do jobs better than workers - not all jobs but some.

Moronic is a kind word to describe that policy.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on October 14, 2017, 09:17:14 PM
It was there and I know things have improved it was stated that production of electricity was not really cost effective. Forgive my memory but I seem to think it was worked out on a ton of coal or X number of cu ft of gas and what came out was something like 30% of input. I am pretty sure those figures are now out of date. However once you had the electricity it was cheaper to move it around the country.
Perhaps domestic CHP (combined heat and power) will get back on the agenda as an efficient way to use fossil fuels (or possibly wood via gasification) as the process both generates electricity and then provides heating with the waste heat. I believe that trials held a few years ago revealed serious reliability issues. Urban CHP is also implementable using small power stations and a network of hot water pipes (which will involve digging up the roads).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: auntyneddy on October 15, 2017, 09:33:37 AM
Thank you John Ratsey for reminding me about CHP it featured very much in my 'studies'. Now, I cannot rely on my memory enough to be certain but somewhere, recently I either read or heard that a power station had been taken off line affecting x number of homes who were on a CHP system.
If that ain't madness what is?
CHP is used on the continent and I believe the USA and yet good old Blighty  has sailed on regardless.
Just remembered something. New Tricks episode involving Battersea Power Station. Good old Brian trotting out his facts and figures. Battersea was state of the art,  had emission controls and supplied heat and power to the surrounding area. Of course it burnt coal so it had to  go.
Hopefully one of you brighter ones will put me right if I have the wrong end of the stick.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 16, 2017, 08:08:16 AM
To get back to the original thread, this is a brilliant little Smart Charging device shown on "Fully Charged" this week. The Zappi charger, which can be set up to ONLY use your green, free, energy.
How the CT knows which direction the current is flowing in the meter tails is beyond me, unless it is monitoring the DC component, before the inverter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EtegQfZQRw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EtegQfZQRw)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 16, 2017, 08:17:12 AM
I think I have found the answer to my CT problem. By measuring whether the current leads or lags the voltage will show what direction the POWER is flowing.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on October 18, 2017, 03:41:22 PM
Today is windless and sunless. Guess what? Wind and solar  energy input to the Grid is minimal less than 10%.
http://gridwatch.co.uk/
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 18, 2017, 05:03:33 PM
I saw that this morning. Pretty dismal for green energy.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 19, 2017, 08:45:07 AM
To get back to the original thread, this is a brilliant little Smart Charging device shown on "Fully Charged" this week. The Zappi charger, which can be set up to ONLY use your green, free, energy.
How the CT knows which direction the current is flowing in the meter tails is beyond me, unless it is monitoring the DC component, before the inverter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EtegQfZQRw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EtegQfZQRw)

Robert Llewellyn must be accumulating an expensive collection of battery and renewable stuff at his country pile, I bet all of it is FOC if he agrees to do a favourable program.   For me it is ironic that Llewellyn went from 'scrap heap challenge' to being the doyen of the renewables / EV community.   Most presenters (and I include petrol head Clarkson in this) will swap sides if they can keep their cushy lifestyle and celebrity status,  they sniff out any opportunity to pick up the latest fashion and get a comfy seat on the bandwagon.

Anyone relying on solar today will eat a cold dinner in the dark, clouds are touching the ground by us. A bit of wind (but that can happen when you eat uncooked food LOL).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 19, 2017, 09:03:29 AM
I bet all of it is FOC if he agrees to do a favourable program.   For me it is ironic that Llewellyn went from 'scrap heap challenge' to being the doyen of the renewables / EV community.
He makes it quite clear on a number of the videos that everything he has installed he has paid for and that he does not take FOC stuff from the various places he visits. I know his Tesla is leased and his Leaf he has had for years.
Regarding Scrapheap Challenge, I suppose that is the ultimate in green recycling, so no conflict there.
Sorry your weather is so miserable today. We have a gorgeous, dry, warm, sunny, morning here despite the fact the sun doesn't rise until almost 8 am this time of the year.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: auntyneddy on October 20, 2017, 09:26:07 AM
A friend who sends me 'Funnies' sent this:

Headlines from 2030

'OZONE created by EV's now killing millions'

I sincerely hope this will not generate another 25 pages.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 20, 2017, 09:56:54 AM
It was on the news a week ago that the hole in the ozone layer could take 30 years longer to repair, than expected, because of chlorine containing chemicals. Used in Paint stripper and PCB manufacture (among other things), these chemicals are mainly produced, unregulated, in China.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-41585552 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-41585552)

On a brighter note, This little lot, courtesy of Bosch, on latest episode of "Fully Charged".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4k5TDZ6irG4&t=804s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4k5TDZ6irG4&t=804s)

I'd love one of the scooters!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on October 20, 2017, 10:38:07 AM
I thought the Bosch mower on FC looked quite funky, until I looked the price up online.  :o
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 20, 2017, 11:13:03 AM
A friend who sends me 'Funnies' sent this:

Headlines from 2030

'OZONE created by EV's now killing millions'

I sincerely hope this will not generate another 25 pages.

No-one could argue with the headline that 'humans are destroying the only habitable planet in the known universe with their selfishness, greed and runaway overpopulation'.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 20, 2017, 11:14:47 AM
The stuff on show were all made by 3rd parties. Only the components are manufactured by Bosch.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 20, 2017, 11:35:19 AM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/24/exclusive-green-energy-tycoon-eye-storm-electric-car-charging/

The article says it costs about £50K to install and maintain one charging point,  did anyone think prices would not rise. 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 20, 2017, 12:09:21 PM
Of course they quote a cost like that. They are trying to justify fleecing the motoring public. Image Shell putting their petrol up to £5/Litre then saying the rise was due to the cost of installing and maintaining a petrol pump and quoting £50K instead of the £7K it actually costs. You'd laugh your socks off and go elsewhere.
This story is about a man, who is not satisfied with his £100 million fortune and wants to make more by taking it out of our pockets. Typical of all big businessmen, worldwide.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 20, 2017, 06:52:59 PM
Of course they quote a cost like that. They are trying to justify fleecing the motoring public. Image Shell putting their petrol up to £5/Litre then saying the rise was due to the cost of installing and maintaining a petrol pump and quoting £50K instead of the £7K it actually costs. You'd laugh your socks off and go elsewhere.
This story is about a man, who is not satisfied with his £100 million fortune and wants to make more by taking it out of our pockets. Typical of all big businessmen, worldwide.

I have seen figures from USA municipalities that put costs from $40,000 to $52,000 to install level 3 charging points,  you have to get the (3 phase) power to the site, pay for the actual electrical gear, prepare and concrete / tarmac the site,  pay your liability insurance in case your charger electrocutes someone etc.  etc.   Then there is an ongoing maintenance cost (including when the scrotes keep nicking your cables for the metal LOL).   Installing stuff on motorway service area is bound to be expensive as they are normally a long way from anywhere.

I will be happy when we can see the true cost being payed by EV users and then see what the economics are  - they cannot live in their taxpayer subsidised bubble for ever.  I have a feeling that private EV charging companies will want to see a return on their investment, as should government funded ones.  Tesla will want to raise their charges soon,  as they cannot keep providing a free / subsidised infrastructure and fuel  for ever - that is a terrible business model.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 20, 2017, 07:21:53 PM
Tesla cannot keep providing a free / subsidised infrastructure and fuel  for ever - that is a terrible business model.
Only on cars purchased before 1st January 2018.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on October 26, 2017, 09:57:56 AM
This morning - as I write -  Gridwatch says renewable sources provide 10% of all electricity consumed...
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 26, 2017, 10:18:31 AM
It is weird their mix today. Demand is high, we are almost at max CCGT, but little or no wind in the equation. It is blowing well here and all the local turbines are turning, but the rest of the country must be becalmed in this high the weather lot are talking about.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on October 26, 2017, 01:44:49 PM
No wind here (Staffordshire/Cheshire borders).

Next door's flag hanging lifeless..
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: auntyneddy on October 26, 2017, 02:38:34 PM
Haircut Tuesday. Latest on the ZOE.   I didn't realise that different manufacturers use different plugs for recharging.
Hairdresser still glad the ZOE is going. She related a trip which was well within the cars range but it was night and raining so she pulled into service area where she knew there was a charging point, for a top up while she had a coffee only to find it was out of action and the other point was a different fit. She is no shrinking violet but the episode made her a little nervous as she was on her own. Her thoughts were what would have happened had she travelled a few miles more before returning for home.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 26, 2017, 02:47:53 PM
Haircut Tuesday. Latest on the ZOE.   I didn't realise that different manufacturers use different plugs for recharging.
Hairdresser still glad the ZOE is going. She related a trip which was well within the cars range but it was night and raining so she pulled into service area where she knew there was a charging point, for a top up while she had a coffee only to find it was out of action and the other point was a different fit. She is no shrinking violet but the episode made her a little nervous as she was on her own. Her thoughts were what would have happened had she travelled a few miles more before returning for home.

I think for a female who travels alone, that presently an EV is not a good choice. IMHO no matter how many charging points are fitted,  because of their location (in car parks, side of main roads etc.) there will be a good chance chance of them being vandalised, probably will have the charging cables stolen for copper scrap. After all who is going to vandalise a petrol pump on a petrol station when they are normally open 24 hours and have good CCTV.   If charging points have to be staffed like petrol stations to prevent vandalism that will both reduce the number of charging sites and push price of charging up.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 26, 2017, 02:55:24 PM
No wind here (Staffordshire/Cheshire borders).

Next door's flag hanging lifeless..

Not a breath of wind in Shropshire either,  and very cloudy - which is bad news for 'renewables' today, when I looked a short while ago the gas powered CCGT (the renewables best friend) were supplying 60% of our grid power, with nuclear at 20% wind <5% and solar <3% LOL

If they keep burning gas at this rate to keep electric grid happy my CH boiler and cooker will be going out soon, followed by the house lights and TV when they use up all our gas reserves ( our only hope is fracking).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on October 26, 2017, 03:31:01 PM
All these gas fired power stations are paid to be on call - in case renewables don't produce.
And people wonder why are bills are rising..

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 27, 2017, 09:54:29 AM
Getting back on thread, I was directed to this today.

https://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2017_10/pr0301.htm (https://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2017_10/pr0301.htm)

This could be a game changer.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 27, 2017, 12:02:45 PM
https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/road-tests/96441241/mazdas-new-skyactivx-petrol-plans-to-put-the-pressure-on-electric-vehicles

To be fair I think my brothers new Skoda 1.4 direct injection petrol works pretty much the same way,  he gets good performance (0-60 in less than 8 seconds) and good economy (60mpg+) on a run.   The main thing is getting rid of pumping losses by getting rid of the throttle butterfly found in petrol engines (but not in diesel,  which is the main reason they get better mpg, combined with the fact that diesel is heavier and more dense than petrol and contains about 20% more energy).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on October 27, 2017, 12:11:14 PM
Getting back on thread, I was directed to this today.

https://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2017_10/pr0301.htm (https://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2017_10/pr0301.htm)

This could be a game changer.

Yes definitely a game changer in the UK.. 
"320km on 6-minute, ultra-rapid recharge, triple that possible with current lithium-ion battery."

So battery capacity approx 81KWH - approx..  so to charge it requires a 810KWH connection  (6mins)  which at 240 V =approx 300amps .
The mains cables in the substations will melt.. .No UK house could charge that - the consumer unit would stop at 100Amps..

20 years to update the infrastructure.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 27, 2017, 01:47:26 PM
Getting back on thread, I was directed to this today.

https://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2017_10/pr0301.htm (https://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2017_10/pr0301.htm)

This could be a game changer.



20 years to update the infrastructure.

Will take longer than 20 years to decide on charging voltage and plug standards - otherwise most people will rock up at charging point and plug will not fit their car, otherwise a boot full of adaptor plugs, like travelling abroad.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 27, 2017, 01:55:20 PM
What you have is battery storage in the back of your garage. That is trickle charged, by either the mains or your PV cells. When you need to charge your car in a hurry you just dump the lot.
Regarding cables, all EVs can be charged from a standard 13A plug top. Not rapidly, but charged nonetheless.
As a maintenance engineer for 50 years it was my job to look for solutions, not further problems. Not many maintenance engineers here today.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 27, 2017, 02:26:00 PM

Yes definitely a game changer in the UK.. 
"320km on 6-minute, ultra-rapid recharge, triple that possible with current lithium-ion battery."

So battery capacity approx 81KWH - approx..  so to charge it requires a 810KWH connection  (6mins)  which at 240 V =approx 300amps .
The mains cables in the substations will melt.. .No UK house could charge that - the consumer unit would stop at 100Amps..

20 years to update the infrastructure.

Actually at 240 volts 1 kw = 4 amps,  so 810KW x 4 = 3,240 amps for 6 minutes - that is some cable you will need, mind you we will have superconductors at room temperature by then so cable will only be 1mm diameter (all aboard the 'Tomorrows World' bus LOL).

Just a guess but at that charging rate I guess the battery may get hot (Boeing Dreamliner fires a few years ago)  so may need to add a cooling system to battery - further increasing weight of vehicle.

When I was in maintenance we did predictive fault finding, using experience to highlight possible weak spots in equipment,  once you have found the problem the solution can be pretty straightforward.  I can see many weak spots in EV roll-out the way it is being done (by Hype and subsidies) when lack of standards and infrastructure are being ignored by clueless governments who are being advised by people with very firmly vested interests (in their own profits,  not the future of the planet).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 27, 2017, 07:27:40 PM
The following calculations disregard inefficiencies of invertors, transformers etc.
The battery quoted is 32kW. At 375 volts you would be talking about 850 amps to transfer that from a Storage battery to the car. A huge current but not insurmountable as designs improve (multi pin connectors a possibility). Running direct off a single phase of the mains, at the UK standard of 230 volts, would require 1400 amps, which can never happen. Even 3 phase would require a huge current. However, single phase, 230 volts, 20 amps would charge the storage battery pack in less than 8 hours.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on October 27, 2017, 08:21:05 PM
The following calculations disregard inefficiencies of invertors, transformers etc.
However, single phase, 230 volts, 20 amps would charge the storage battery pack in less than 8 hours.

For an 100kw/h battery, which will become the norm as most EV can get around 3km per KWh.

230 volts single phase at 20 amps would put 5KW an hour into battery,  that means at least 20 hours (ignoring inefficiency of equipment and charging efficiency of battery), off a 13 amp plug it would be 3KW an hour, or 33 hours.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 27, 2017, 08:58:33 PM
Sorry. The battery quoted is 32kW not 320kW. The charge rate for 6 minutes is where the 320kW came in to the equation. The battery storage would need 32kW hence my numbers.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TG on October 28, 2017, 01:56:20 PM
The rapid chargers are DC, the use of a local storage battery is implied.  The neighbourhood grid will not have to deal with temporary high peak loads.  The long term aim is to locally buffer generated power for local supply.  It will end up as part of a more holistic approach incorporating solar feed in, power loan back, & demand balancing.

This is the same method drone flyers use: at the field you rapid charge your small flight packs from a large storage battery.
--
TG
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on October 30, 2017, 06:41:23 AM
"Toyota are working on a new solid state battery technology which promises to be game changing – if not quite disruptive – with the original claims for the batteries suggesting they would deliver a 600 mile range and cost 90 per cent less than current batteries."

Read more: http://www.carsuk.net/toyota-wont-share-600-mile-ev-battery-technology/#ixzz4wyGx0pSk
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: rogbro on October 31, 2017, 03:30:25 PM
Conclusion of an environmental impact of electric cars .

  Over the cars life, from mining the Lithium and Cobalt for its batteries, to the breakers yard. 
Environmentally Electric cars are NO better that a modern petrol one.   In fact if the electricity used to charge it, is from a fossil fuel generating plant.  They are worse.   
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on October 31, 2017, 03:37:00 PM
Conclusion of an environmental impact of electric cars .

  Over the cars life, from mining the Lithium and Cobalt for its batteries, to the breakers yard. 
Environmentally Electric cars are NO better that a modern petrol one.   In fact if the electricity used to charge it, is from a fossil fuel generating plant.  They are worse.

Without any reference to back up such a bald statement, it's less than useless...
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 31, 2017, 04:18:45 PM
Lithium is extracted from Brine. Very little is mined. Cobalt is a by product of copper and nickel mining. Vast amounts of electricity is used in the refining of petrol. So unless we all go back to horses and Shanks' Pony we will continue to pollute the planet.
The supertanker bringing the oil from Saudi to Milford Haven burns 4,000 tons of crude plus roughly the same going back empty. Everything we do pollutes. EVs are no worse than any other car.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 31, 2017, 04:31:42 PM
Oh yes. What about the Platinum, Palladium and Rhodium used in catalytic converters? Production of them, either by mining or recycling, is also polluting the environment.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: zzaj on October 31, 2017, 07:56:02 PM
Conclusion of an environmental impact of electric cars .

  Over the cars life, from mining the Lithium and Cobalt for its batteries, to the breakers yard. 
Environmentally Electric cars are NO better that a modern petrol one.   In fact if the electricity used to charge it, is from a fossil fuel generating plant.  They are worse.

Sounds logical to me.

Whilst city air might be better, the power generation pollution will be moved somewhere else.

Who would have thought even twenty years ago that nuclear power would today be cheered as the solution to all our problems. It used to be thought that radio active waste, which had half lives of centuries, eliminated practical use of nuclear power.

I suspect all this is a case of what you gain on the roundabouts you lose on the swings.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on October 31, 2017, 08:22:21 PM
Who would have thought even twenty years ago that nuclear power would today be cheered as the solution to all our problems. It used to be thought that radio active waste, which had half lives of centuries, eliminated practical use of nuclear power.
Anyone who thinks that nuclear power is the saviour of mankind is delusional. It is uneconomic to construct (unless you have a government printing the money to do so), it isn't safe, and it will leave a lasting legacy of polluted land and materials that will foul the planet  for centuries. Radioactive isotopes eventually decay, or disintegrate, to harmless materials. Some isotopes decay in hours or even minutes, but others decay very slowly. Strontium-90 and Caesium-137 have half-lives of about 30 years (half the radioactivity will decay in 30 years). Plutonium-239 has a half-life of 24,000 years. We would do less damage to the planet burning stuff.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 02, 2017, 07:01:11 AM
Tesla has just announced its biggest ever quarterly loss, pushing their shares down by 5%. They are failing miserably in ramping up production of the Model 3, and also experiencing problems with their Gigafactory battery production.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 02, 2017, 09:29:37 AM
Tesla has just announced its biggest ever quarterly loss, pushing their shares down by 5%. They are failing miserably in ramping up production of the Model 3, and also experiencing problems with their Gigafactory battery production.

This is where the big 'professional' car makers will win out,  they have the design, planning, R&D / testing  and technical ability - not just pie in the sky ideas, crossed fingers and a hand held out for taxpayer subsidies and shareholder money LOL.

I have worked in first tier suppliers plants and car-plants installing automation, and I can tell you car making is a dog-eat-dog industry,  where not only do car brands compete against each other but different plants of the same company compete against each other for quality, efficiency and profitability,  and the losers don't get the new models when they are planned.

Of the 11 initial 'wannabee' makers of autonomous vehicles in USA there are only 6 left,  mainly the large 'old-tech conventional car companies' that silicon valley was 'gonna  blow out of the water with their sheer brainpower' LOL  ??? Making cars is a complicated high volume low margin business, one recall can cost you dearly,  as Tesla will find out real soon.  Sell your shares now if you have any.  Once the 'wheels start to fall off' (literally - see link at bottom of post) Tesla business model, hard headed investors will make rats leaving a sinking ship seem slow,  and his boast of having more cash than GM and Ford will evaporate, then he better hope that his space rockets, pods sucked through tube mass transport etc will keep his company afloat.

Here are some fun photos of Tesla cars where the suspension has failed and / or the wheel has simply decided to go in a different direction to the others (they really need to sort the auto-pilot software out).

https://www.flickr.com/photos/136377865@N05/albums/72157658490111523

One of the comments was 'if Tesla made aircraft, all their models would be grounded by now'.

Tesla may be better offering free vehicle recovery than free charging,  as it seems a Tesla is at its most dangerous when there is some power in the battery to propel the vehicle.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 03, 2017, 09:03:52 AM
https://www.wired.com/2017/04/detroit-stomping-silicon-valley-self-driving-car-race/

More bad news for silicon valley boys.

My guess is that having avoided using LIDAR on cost grounds that Tesla will have to start using it (everyone else seems to be) and that will  knock their 'affordable car' dreams on the head.  Cameras just do not cut it in certain situations that humans and Lidar can deal with.

Another reason why AI is not ready yet to replace humans.......

https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/2/16597276/google-ai-image-attacks-adversarial-turtle-rifle-3d-printed

Because AI doesn’t look for patterns and forms the same way humans do. I wrote a bit more about this problem here, but it helps to think of these systems as essentially alien consciousnesses. They are completely devoid of any of the context or knowledge all humans on this planet take for granted. Like, what an animal is or isn’t, or whether something looks heavy or light, or a thousand other factors.

Instead, they pick up on very subtle cues to recognize objects, and often we don’t know what it is they’re picking up on. They might learn to recognize a cat is because it has whiskers (but so does nearly every other animal), or they might think that anything with fur is a cat. Or it could be just when they see seven dark pixels followed by six light ones in a diagonal pattern, that’s a cat. They’ll think this simply because that’s a pattern that fits all the cats they’ve previously seen. But show them one picture of a cat that doesn’t fit this pattern, and they’ll be confused. It’s why these systems are so fragile — and not just vision ones. They don’t have general knowledge about the world.


on actually making cars...........

“With all of that in mind, it’s far easier for an existing car manufacturer to replicate the sort of logistics platform that Uber or Lyft have than it is for those companies to invest in and create the development, manufacturing, and service infrastructure that [original equipment manufacturers] have,” Abuelsamid said. “That’s exactly what’s already happening as all the leading OEMs already invested in or developing their own services.”

Abuelsamid noted that Tesla was ranked pretty far down the “contender” because Elon Musk’s company is “lacking in quality, distribution, financial stability and their [Autopilot] 2.0 hardware will never be more than limited Level 4-capable at best.” In other words, Musk would be advised not to start gloating about his company being valued higher than Ford quite yet.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 03, 2017, 12:47:02 PM
They do seem to be struggling to get the model 3 out and the new 2018 Nissan Leaf looks a much better bet for people at the lower end of the market.

Where Tesla do score, if you can afford one, is in their much better charging network. The current infrastructure for other EVs remains a joke. Yes it's improving but from a very low base. Still too much fiddling with apps in the driving wind and rain for my liking. Even passionate EV advocates post videos of charging nightmares. The current infrastructure is inadequate, unreliable and the mechanism for charging impossibly complex. There is no need for an App - I have asked this question many times on EV forums and nobody can come up with an answer.

I've decided I'll be a laggard in the EV take up - after all I've got 23 years left and I'll be in my 90s when the ban on ICEs comes in (assuming I live that long!!!)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 03, 2017, 02:24:33 PM
They do seem to be struggling to get the model 3 out and the new 2018 Nissan Leaf looks a much better bet for people at the lower end of the market.

I've decided I'll be a laggard in the EV take up - after all I've got 23 years left and I'll be in my 90s when the ban on ICEs comes in (assuming I live that long!!!)

Yeah,  the new Leaf is a much better looking car than their strange offerings up to now, and with a usable range.

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/nissan/leaf/100743/new-nissan-leaf-2018-prices-specs-release-date

I think most people are like you,  waiting for prices to drop,  range to increase and charging infrastructure to standardise and get its ars3 into gear before they make a switch,  with technology changing so fast and no sign of being able to upgrade older models to new (larger) battery capacity people are wary of buying something that will be out of date and well down in value in a year or two.

With their production failing and the company continuing to haemorrhage (taxpayer and shareholder) money Tesla may not be in a position to roll out more charging stations at the rate they have been.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 03, 2017, 02:43:14 PM
Very good point about the battery upgrade. The manufacturers are reluctant to allow this. There are also myths being perpetrated that it will be possible to replace dud cells in a degrading battery. I have looked into this in some detail. I have posed the question on a number of EV forums along the lines of "Do you know anybody who has replaced a dud cell in a battery." The silence is deafening. The best answer I got came from somebody who said that when he had his battery analysed all the cells were degrading at a similar rate so replacing one or two would be pointless.

There is some way to go before mass adoption. They make a great second car if you have an ICE for longer trips but, as a one car family, they are not for me as yet or even close if I'm honest.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: auntyneddy on November 04, 2017, 10:51:55 AM
When I started this thread I had no idea of the interest it would bring. Has any other thread managed 28 pages and still going.
Perhaps motor manufacturers might do well to read Club Jazz on the subject of EV's. might give them some pointers.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on November 04, 2017, 01:08:55 PM
Very good point about the battery upgrade. The manufacturers are reluctant to allow this. There are also myths being perpetrated that it will be possible to replace dud cells in a degrading battery. I have looked into this in some detail. I have posed the question on a number of EV forums along the lines of "Do you know anybody who has replaced a dud cell in a battery." The silence is deafening. The best answer I got came from somebody who said that when he had his battery analysed all the cells were degrading at a similar rate so replacing one or two would be pointless.

There is some way to go before mass adoption. They make a great second car if you have an ICE for longer trips but, as a one car family, they are not for me as yet or even close if I'm honest.

http://www.hybridbatterysolutions.co.uk/prices-and-services/   is one of many repairers..Google will find many more. 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 04, 2017, 05:29:59 PM
I notice this is specifically for Toyota Hybrids. Of course there are a lot of these on the road so after market providers have a big customer base. It may be, in time, a similar set up arises for EVs but, at the moment, a lot of people seem to be putting up with the loss of battery capacity. The value of a car with lost capacity drops like a stone. I'm seeing some Leafs at around the £3,000 mark now - not many and not at dealers but shows that an old Leaf is not worth a lot.

One thing that I have gleaned from lurking round the EV scene is that Tesla batteries seem to be holding up better but they, unlike the Leaf, have active battery cooling.

The advice seems to be that you need to build in battery degradation into any purchase so that probably explains why most Leafs are bought on PCP deals. If you are buying second hand the advice seems to be to ask yourself how long you want to keep the car and whether you could still cope with, say, 75% capacity after 6 years or so. This means a car that could do 80 miles would be down to 60 and, possibly, below 50 in bad weather.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on November 04, 2017, 08:03:00 PM
Many Leafs are cheap because you still have to lease the batteries. Prices rise if you buy one with owned batteries.

The repairers for Toyota are mirrored  - in a smaller scale - for other hybrids. Not that there are many of them..
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on November 04, 2017, 09:38:09 PM
Old Leafs with battery seem to start around the £5-6K mark, unless you are prepared to delve into salvage auctions... which wouldn't put me off at the right price.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 04, 2017, 10:54:03 PM
Old Leafs with battery seem to start around the £5-6K mark, unless you are prepared to delve into salvage auctions... which wouldn't put me off at the right price.

I have seen some discussion around buying an old Leaf with a degraded battery and putting a new one in for, I think, around £5,000 thus giving you a car with decent capability for around £7,000 to £8,000.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TG on November 05, 2017, 06:14:07 PM
Still wouldn't drive an EV through a ford.
--
TG
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 05, 2017, 06:51:17 PM
Still wouldn't drive an EV through a ford.
I, after over 50 years of driving, have only once encountered a ford. Depends where you live I suppose. Flooding, an increasingly more common occurrence, would be a bigger worry.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 06, 2017, 07:11:50 AM
E.on has announced it is going to expand its charging network across Europe by a further 10,000 charging points by 2020. These will include the UK. They will be rapid chargers, capable of 150 kW (equivalent to the Tesla Supercharger) and with a modular upgrade option for 350 kW available.
They have also released a cool video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaC7QCZvZ74&list=PLLmBxZJyM4N82bkFkwWSbGgUiPkVMuVBf&t=3 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaC7QCZvZ74&list=PLLmBxZJyM4N82bkFkwWSbGgUiPkVMuVBf&t=3)

This comes on top of BMW, Daimler, VW Group and Ford announced their plans to add 400 ultra-fast chargers by 2020 as well. That is a drop in the ocean, but if the four are working together it at least means some standardisation in connectivity.

Add to that that Chris Grayling is expected to announce later today that legislation should be in place, by 2021, permitting self driving vehicles to be used on UK roads.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 06, 2017, 08:48:05 AM
Still wouldn't drive an EV through a ford.
I, after over 50 years of driving, have only once encountered a ford. Depends where you live I suppose. Flooding, an increasingly more common occurrence, would be a bigger worry.

When driving through flood (or even parked up on a flooded area) and electricity and water meet the resultant gassing would re-float the car,  and any passing hydrogen car could get a free fill-up,  after which the EV would either explode from a spark in the electrics or the occupants would be subject to 'electric chair' treatment LOL

Better make sure they don't install charging points on flood plains or flood prone areas (which unfortunately includes most areas in UK where houses are built).

I'm assuming that any EV caught in a flood would have its battery and inverters and any electronics 'below the water level' well and truly fried - ££££££££'s
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: auntyneddy on November 06, 2017, 09:39:50 AM
Has the Fire Service sorted out their concerns over putting water on an EV? Given Culzean's comment about water plus other = hydrogen I am not surprised Trumpton is concerned.
Sorry no disrespect to the Fire service. Working alongside retained Fire persons we were Plod and they were Trumpton.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on November 06, 2017, 09:44:27 AM
I can drive through a small ford locally once a week when travelling to our Beekeeping Association Apiary. It's not very deep in dry weather but over 30cms in wet. I choose not to as frequent immersion in water can lead to water ingress into the wheel bearings - bad news. (Citroen Xantias had gearbox water ingress in floods!).. Water in car electrics usually means future contact corrosion and multiple electronic problems.. run away job.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 06, 2017, 10:00:01 AM
Has the Fire Service sorted out their concerns over putting water on an EV? Given Culzean's comment about water plus other = hydrogen I am not surprised Trumpton is concerned.
Sorry no disrespect to the Fire service. Working alongside retained Fire persons we were Plod and they were Trumpton.

Most EV batteries work at 350V DC and above,  bearing in mind that anything over 48volts is considered a shock hazard in IEEE electrical regs no wonder Trumpton is a bit wary of dealing with EV,  also when an EV crashes the amount of energy stored is well capable of causing an explosion,  and unlike petrol you can't wash electricity away with water or foam.  The leakage of flammable Ethylene Glycol coolant (basically alcohol) from battery cooling systems can feed the flames.

https://jalopnik.com/watch-volunteer-firefighters-in-austria-extinguish-a-fi-1819665352

It is not only shock hazard,  fire fighters have to wear breathing apparatus to deal with the toxic cocktail of gasses given off by Lithium battery fire,  and Tesla advise keeping vehicle in quarantine for minimum 48 hours after crash to make sure other fires / explosions do not spontaneously happen - scary stuff.

Why Tesla don't fit an 'isolate on impact' device I don't know,  normal cars have a device to disconnect fuel pump power supply in event of a crash.   I wonder if the not-so-well known (it has been hushed up) propensity for Tesla cars to have suspension failure resulting in wheels randomly falling off was the cause of this crash,  or a failure of autopilot software.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 06, 2017, 10:37:56 AM
or a failure of autopilot software.
It looked like a cause of auto pilot failure to me. Or to be more precise - a driver sitting behind the wheel who failed to notice the warning signs followed by concrete barriers in the road.
Just a practical demonstration of Darwin's theory
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 06, 2017, 01:03:22 PM
or a failure of autopilot software.
It looked like a cause of auto pilot failure to me. Or to be more precise - a driver sitting behind the wheel who failed to notice the warning signs followed by concrete barriers in the road.
Just a practical demonstration of Darwin's theory

Don't tell me that tesla useless cameras that are supposed to brake the car didn't notice the barrier either - who would have thought it.  Wonder what their excuse will be this time as no white clouds behind a white lorry to blame.

I bet that when pilot plays a movie the autopilot watches it as well.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 06, 2017, 03:01:40 PM
The main thing is, without trying to defend Tesla, their Autopilot is sold as a driver "assist". It is not there to replace the driver. It is not able to replace the driver (as you are so keen to point out). If a driver wishes to risk their life by depending on a system that is still being developed then that is their lookout (and any other poor soul that gets on their way). I haven't seen the Tesla users manual (I am sure thought that it will be a lengthy tome), but I am positive it will state, in no uncertain terms, that the Autopilot cannot and should not be the sole method of controlling the car.
Every other developer of EVs seems to use LIDAR. Tesla does not. I am sure, in the future, they will regret that engineering choice.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 06, 2017, 03:17:20 PM
The main thing is, without trying to defend Tesla, their Autopilot is sold as a driver "assist". It is not there to replace the driver. It is not able to replace the driver (as you are so keen to point out). If a driver wishes to risk their life by depending on a system that is still being developed then that is their lookout (and any other poor soul that gets on their way). I haven't seen the Tesla users manual (I am sure thought that it will be a lengthy tome), but I am positive it will state, in no uncertain terms, that the Autopilot cannot and should not be the sole method of controlling the car.
Every other developer of EVs seems to use LIDAR. Tesla does not. I am sure, in the future, they will regret that engineering choice.

All this just makes plain to me that all the autonomous vehicle roadmap levels 1 to 4 are a waste of time and only level 5 (a fully autonomous vehicle) is workable, any attempt to 'assist' the driver are  waste of time, as you end up with neither the car or driver in charge, you get a distracted driver and a potential accident.  Statistics coming from USA (which I posted earlier in thread) point to the fact that accidents have increased by 15% since 2014 when 'driver aids' were introduced in vehicles because drivers think that whatever they do the car will save them.  I actually think that airbags, seatbelts, crumple zones, and other safety features   actually mean drivers take more risks, so fooling them into thinking a semi autonomous car will save their sorry @ss from their stupidity and lack of attention is asking for trouble.

https://www.vox.com/new-money/2017/7/5/15840860/tesla-waymo-audi-self-driving
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 06, 2017, 03:50:53 PM
I agree almost entirely. I remember when seat belts were first introduced they gave a feeling on invincibility.
The only thing I disagree with is the "waste of time" levels. Both 4 and 5 are fully autonomous. Level 4 means the vehicle is autonomous in a defined area (be that a city, a state or a country). Level 5 means the vehicle can go anywhere in the world. I consider myself Level 4, because I am comfortable in the UK, as long as I am not in a city I don't know! I hate driving in busy cities and wouldn't dream of driving in London. When I was younger I was Level 5, driving anywhere in the world I was sent.
So an autonomous taxi may be programmed for Greater London and no more. That is an example of Level 4.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: ColinS on November 06, 2017, 04:12:04 PM
I think modern motoring has given us a cocooned sense of security within warm and soundproofed cabins and in my opinion, autonomy levels 1 to 3 add to this feeling of reliance on the vehicle.

A prime example of the motorist not taking the responsibility is the use of headlights in the fog.  Some of us forget there is a manual on/off switch (well maybe not off but that’s a different subject).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 06, 2017, 05:21:56 PM
I think modern motoring has given us a cocooned sense of security within warm and soundproofed cabins and in my opinion, autonomy levels 1 to 3 add to this feeling of reliance on the vehicle.

A prime example of the motorist not taking the responsibility is the use of headlights in the fog.  Some of us forget there is a manual on/off switch (well maybe not off but that’s a different subject).

A good many drivers need to be reminded that being allowed to drive over a tonne of metal at high speed on a road network shared with millions of others is a big responsibility, requires all your attention all the time and is not to be taken lightly and that it is a privilege not a g#d given right.

Motorbike riders call cars 'fug boxes' - an apt description of the enclosed, overheated atmosphere inside.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on November 06, 2017, 09:28:24 PM
The main thing is, without trying to defend Tesla, their Autopilot is sold as a driver "assist". It is not there to replace the driver. It is not able to replace the driver (as you are so keen to point out). If a driver wishes to risk their life by depending on a system that is still being developed then that is their lookout (and any other poor soul that gets on their way). I haven't seen the Tesla users manual (I am sure thought that it will be a lengthy tome), but I am positive it will state, in no uncertain terms, that the Autopilot cannot and should not be the sole method of controlling the car.
Every other developer of EVs seems to use LIDAR. Tesla does not. I am sure, in the future, they will regret that engineering choice.

All this just makes plain to me that all the autonomous vehicle roadmap levels 1 to 4 are a waste of time and only level 5 (a fully autonomous vehicle) is workable, any attempt to 'assist' the driver are  waste of time, as you end up with neither the car or driver in charge, you get a distracted driver and a potential accident.  Statistics coming from USA (which I posted earlier in thread) point to the fact that accidents have increased by 15% since 2014 when 'driver aids' were introduced in vehicles because drivers think that whatever they do the car will save them.  I actually think that airbags, seatbelts, crumple zones, and other safety features   actually mean drivers take more risks, so fooling them into thinking a semi autonomous car will save their sorry @ss from their stupidity and lack of attention is asking for trouble.

https://www.vox.com/new-money/2017/7/5/15840860/tesla-waymo-audi-self-driving

Thanks for the above link . I read it with interest...so full automation with no driver input is the way to go it seems?

I drive along single track unlisted roads every week form March to September to travel to our Association Apiary to help to train novice beekeepers. There are passing spaces every 100 meters to every 500 meters depending on the road. I find it difficult to believe that the road will be passable for fully autonomous cars as the judgement required to pull off the road involves an assessment of the surface conditions (mud,ruts,banks) and the hazards - many very steep but hidden ditches, horses,tractors coming out of hidden field entrances etc (you hear them before you see them) etc.
This could mean some roads in such a car might become inaccessible..
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 07, 2017, 06:56:19 AM
Personally I think there will be many years of Level 4 before level 5 is sufficiently developed. Initially, I believe, Level 4 will be confined to cities. The major cities will have fleets of autonomous cabs, and as technology improves the autonomous vehicle will be rolled out wider and wider.
Having said that, a self driving vehicle, on a road like you quoted, will probably be a lot safer than most drivers. It won't push on just because it is a 4x4 and will intimidate smaller vehicles, it will more easily be able to compute the speed of oncoming vehicles, using its sophisticated LIDAR (judging speed of approaching vehicles is the most difficult task for humans, especially as they get older, and is one of the reasons many older motorists end up in accidents), and the wheel and inertia sensors on autonomous vehicles make excellent choices regarding road surface and grip.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 07, 2017, 09:35:31 AM
I think Culzean sums up for me part of the problem with increasing but not yet full autonomy. As the car takes over some functions but still relies on the driver for overall control, complacency is going to set in - indeed IS setting in. The distractions of these wretched infotainment systems are another factor.

I wonder if we will see an increase in RTAs over the next few years as we enter this semi autonomous era.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 07, 2017, 09:49:10 AM
accidents have increased by 15% since 2014 when 'driver aids' were introduced in vehicles
As culzean says, this has already happened.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 07, 2017, 10:14:47 AM
accidents have increased by 15% since 2014 when 'driver aids' were introduced in vehicles
As culzean says, this has already happened.

It is happening with aviation as well with computers taking over the mundane tasks in aircraft.  A case in the link I posted where an Air France passenger plane en-route South America to France had all its speed sensors ice up, the autopilot turned itself off and the crew had no idea what was wrong and did all the wrong things,  by the time the crew thought to wake the (older) senior pilot who did realise what had happened it was too late and plane 'belly flopped' into the Atlantic.  Another recent episode where a fuel leak on one airbus engine was draining fuel from one tank the crew suspected computer problems and manually took over,  in the end the plane ran out of fuel mid-Atlantic and they had to glide the aircraft 75miles to land on a military airfield in the Azores.

Aviation and vehicles have the same problem, too much reliance on computers is breeding complacency and sapping the skills of aircrew and when the computers fail or do the wrong thing humans have to take over and it is a very steep learning curve.  The fact is that the heroes of most aviation incidents are older pilots who have more idea what to do when the computers screw up or things generally go t!ts up.  Hopefully if an autonomous car screws up it will just pull over and put the hazards on and auto-dial the AA to come and rescue it.

I was recently given a flying lesson as a birthday gift, the pilot who I was with was mid-thirties and a fully qualified 'heavy' pilot (up to 4 engine aircraft), he gave it up to do 'proper' flying as an instructor on light aircraft at local flying because he said airliner pilots these days are no more than glorified bus drivers / computer minders and it is boring as h3ll.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 07, 2017, 10:27:01 AM
accidents have increased by 15% since 2014 when 'driver aids' were introduced in vehicles
As culzean says, this has already happened.

Came across this article under the heading 'it's been a tough week for self-driving cars'

http://driving.ca/auto-news/news/motor-mouth-autonomous-cars-uber-san-francisco

and on the same site..........

http://driving.ca/auto-news/news/the-road-to-fully-autonomous-cars-is-the-most-dangerous

http://driving.ca/nissan/leaf/auto-news/news/self-driving-cars-will-worsen-traffic-and-nobody-will-care
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: auntyneddy on November 07, 2017, 03:00:16 PM
Again a deviation: One thing Trumpton used to impress upon us was the extreme dangers of a burning car and this was before EV's. Most of the rubber used in modern cars when ignited gives off highly toxic fumes and so Trumpton ALWAYS wore breathing apparatus when dealing with a car fire.
I was mindful when attending  a car fire of the immediate danger, after being hot on the tail of those little darlings that nobody understands, when they set light to the car as they vacated it. Of course we had to stay with the car because of the hazard to others. It was the first and only time I had been close to a burning car when it was just set alight. Well remembering that which we had been told I stood back when the tank went. Not funny but unlike american films the whole car did not disintegrate but bits of metal sure did fly.
I should think Hydrogen is a much different kettle of fish. Many years ago at BOC welding school, they were very touchy on safety. Acetylene not used much now but if the fire got inside, the cylinder would unwind, acetylene cylinder were made like toilet roll inners.. If Oxygen got inside NOTHING just everything in the immediate vicinity vapourised. What does H and O do togather?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 07, 2017, 05:31:59 PM
A hydrogen fire, in the open, though fierce, tends to be over quickly with not a lot of damage. Because the hydrogen in lighter than air it goes up into the air pretty quick and people on the ground have a chance of escaping (think Hindenburg - of the 97 on board 62 survived). A petrol fire of a similar magnitude is far more dangerous.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TG on November 07, 2017, 11:36:06 PM
.... Having said that, a self driving vehicle, on a road like you quoted, will probably be a lot safer than most drivers. It won't push on just because it is a 4x4 and will intimidate smaller vehicles, it will more easily be able to compute the speed of oncoming vehicles, using its sophisticated LIDAR
Don't forget, the cars will talk to each other probably before they can see each other, plus the benefits of collective intelligence about road conditions, hazards, obstacles etc.  They same as the benefits we get from collective speed data harvested from sat nav apps on the phone.
--
TG
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 08, 2017, 07:10:57 AM
Waymo, Google's autonomous vehicle wing, is extending their driverless taxi system in a couple of months.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/nov/07/google-waymo-announces-fully-autonomous-ride-hailing-service-uber-alphabet (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/nov/07/google-waymo-announces-fully-autonomous-ride-hailing-service-uber-alphabet)

From Waymo's own website:
Like many Americans, Ted, Candace and their four kids have a busy driving routine — heading to work, to school, soccer practice, student council, choir rehearsal and more. Except Ted and Candace aren’t commuting in a typical car. Over the last month, this family, along with a handful of Phoenix, AZ residents, has been riding around in Waymo’s fleet of self-driving vehicles. They’re among the very first people in the world to take part in Waymo’s early rider program.
Now, residents in the Phoenix area can apply to join Candace, Ted, and their family in the early rider program. Over the course of this trial, we’ll be accepting hundreds of people with diverse backgrounds and transportation needs who want to ride in and give feedback about Waymo’s self-driving cars. Rather than offering people one or two rides, the goal of this program is to give participants access to our fleet every day, at any time, to go anywhere within an area that’s about twice the size of San Francisco.


So, say what you like, the future is here, whether you want it or not.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 08, 2017, 09:21:31 AM
Waymo, Google's autonomous vehicle wing, is extending their driverless taxi system in a couple of months.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/nov/07/google-waymo-announces-fully-autonomous-ride-hailing-service-uber-alphabet (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/nov/07/google-waymo-announces-fully-autonomous-ride-hailing-service-uber-alphabet)

From Waymo's own website:
Like many Americans, Ted, Candace and their four kids have a busy driving routine — heading to work, to school, soccer practice, student council, choir rehearsal and more. Except Ted and Candace aren’t commuting in a typical car. Over the last month, this family, along with a handful of Phoenix, AZ residents, has been riding around in Waymo’s fleet of self-driving vehicles. They’re among the very first people in the world to take part in Waymo’s early rider program.
Now, residents in the Phoenix area can apply to join Candace, Ted, and their family in the early rider program. Over the course of this trial, we’ll be accepting hundreds of people with diverse backgrounds and transportation needs who want to ride in and give feedback about Waymo’s self-driving cars. Rather than offering people one or two rides, the goal of this program is to give participants access to our fleet every day, at any time, to go anywhere within an area that’s about twice the size of San Francisco.


So, say what you like, the future is here, whether you want it or not.

Waymo are not allowed to unleash driverless cars on the roads of California where their headquarters is,  even in Pheonix they still have a technician in the car.

Quote from NY times article ..............

"And though the cars are driverless, they are not entirely without humans, at least for now. Waymo employees sit in the back seat of the cars, monitoring them, a company spokesman, Johnny Luu, said."


Some of the challenges facing driverless cars that humans take in their stride everyday,

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/07/technology/autonomous-car-technology-challenges.html?action=click&contentCollection=Technology&module=RelatedCoverage&region=Marginalia&pgtype=article

And apparently Uber lied that one of their employees was driving the car when it drove through  a red light in San Francisco, some employees blew the whistle later................

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/24/technology/anthony-levandowski-waymo-uber-google-lawsuit.html?action=click&contentCollection=Technology&module=RelatedCoverage&region=Marginalia&pgtype=article
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 08, 2017, 11:01:52 AM
There's no doubt in my mind that autonomous cars are the future. Alongside that will come the end of individual car ownership - you will just hail one on an App and, once it has got you there, it will go on and respond to another call. This means, instead of 30 million lumps of metal cluttering up the place you might be able to manage with 10% of that number given that stats suggest the average car is unused for 90% of its time.

My fear is that people are getting ahead of themselves. This is going to take a long time and there is considerable consumer resistance. I don't expect to see the fully autonomous future in my lifetime and it might not be for another 30 or 40 years.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 08, 2017, 11:28:41 AM
There's no doubt in my mind that autonomous cars are the future. Alongside that will come the end of individual car ownership - you will just hail one on an App and, once it has got you there, it will go on and respond to another call. This means, instead of 30 million lumps of metal cluttering up the place you might be able to manage with 10% of that number given that stats suggest the average car is unused for 90% of its time.

My fear is that people are getting ahead of themselves. This is going to take a long time and there is considerable consumer resistance. I don't expect to see the fully autonomous future in my lifetime and it might not be for another 30 or 40 years.

Auto cars will be like trains and buses, there will have to be enough capacity to cover peaks, and unlike trains and buses people will not be allowed to be standing up and crammed into cars like 'battery' animals. There will also be empty auto cars running around,  I am sure many kids will find themselves packed off to school while parent does other stuff like having extra time in bed.  I have seen many articles saying that when people are relieved from 'chore' of driving there will be a movement of people further out into suburbia for cheaper housing with a large increase in commuting.  I still remember all the hype about people working from home and the paperless office when computers came in, never turned out like that at all, people still travel long distances to work at an office or factory,  and the amount of paper used has increased exponentially.

I agree we are still very much in the 'beta' stage of autonomy, much more proving and testing to be done,  the day an autonomous car ploughs into another car or pedestrians it will put a brake on things, because it will be a generic car / software problem, not the fault of an individual driver (as Uber tried to claim in SF).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 08, 2017, 12:17:07 PM
Coldest day we have had for a while, 45GW demand (just on edge of amber zone), 85% of power being supplied by Gas, nuclear, coal, hydro and biomass.  Come on renewables - you have cost taxpayer great deal but fail to deliver when we need it - if it had been even lightly cloudy today we would have lost the bit of solar we had and it would have been well over 90% from 'non-renewable' sources.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 08, 2017, 12:27:15 PM
Solar doing well today. Just no wind.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 08, 2017, 01:30:29 PM
I think the other thing that will put a brake on full autonomy is economics. Car manufacturers are still making conventional cars and there are no immediate plans to stop. There is a huge amount of equity in people's cars and a lot of debt as well. This is going to take some managing as we transition to a new model. I have heard people airily talk about scrappage schemes but it would have to be one almighty scrappage scheme to take, say, 20 million cars off the road to be replaced by autonomous vehicles that can be summoned as and when.

It's why people are getting ahead of themselves - this is going to take a long long time and there will be difficulties along the way.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 08, 2017, 02:01:51 PM
People like me, where a car purchase is a distress purchase, will probably be the first to change. If you cannot afford a car why buy one. Go down the autonomous cab route. Those in the know reckon it could be on par with a bus fare, for trips around town. Just so much more convenient. This will depress used car prices dramatically, so the people who have bought new will hold on to their cars for longer. When they eventually need to replace their vehicle then they too will go down the autonomous route.
It will all come down to economics. While it is cheaper to own and use your own car then autonomous vehicles wont have a great take up. The first to change are the people who use taxis and Uber style hires. Many of those don't own cars at the moment. The young will lap them up too. Many young people have no interest in learning to drive (I had my provisional for my 17th birthday and was out on the road that morning). My two grandsons have no interest in car ownership or learning to drive. Why should they. They like to go out drinking with mates, they live with their girlfriends (no need for a back seat) and taxis are a way of life for them.
Eventually, and it may take a few years, autonomous car hire will be so convenient and much cheaper than owning a car, so why should want the expense. People may still have the odd car for high days and holidays. Brought out in the summer, just as many born again bikers do with their machines.
There is no denying it. It will happen, like it or not. And probably sooner than many of us think.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 08, 2017, 02:54:30 PM
https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2017/06/22/what-will-car-ownership-look-like-in-the-future/#4febf6c66b99

It seems that Uber is displacing bus, train and taxis more than car ownership, this article says that cost of transport does not figure large in a lot of peoples minds - he cites the case of people who live in a city or suburbs but own a boat that needs to be towed around a couple of times a year - you would expect them to buy a small car for their mainly urban lifestyle and hire a 4X4 a couple of times a year to tow the boat,  but no they will buy and run a 4X4 for the whole time.  I know there is some truth in this because two of my brothers had boats and until recently they had 4X4 vehicles to tow the boat occasionally (they are a bit old to enjoy the boats now and have plumped for large estate cars).

http://economicstudents.com/2013/05/the-irrationality-of-the-rationality-assumption/

So another skill will be lost to humanity - driving,  which done properly is a proper brain workout.  They tested some drivers on a program the other day and asked them to do tasks while driving (counting backwards from 100, answering questions etc.), vast majority failed to do both,  some highly trained Police drivers took part and they admitted they couldn't do both but concentrated on the driving rather than allow their brain to be distracted by other tasks like the others did.

Autonomous cars is just continuing the really bad trend of more and more of the worlds technology and knowledge being compressed into fewer and fewer large corporations, and dumbing down the world for everyone else.

Best part of 10 million peoples jobs in USA are linked to transportation and are at risk, I don't have figure for UK but it will be a lot of people at risk of losing their job.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 08, 2017, 03:18:48 PM
2 interesting posts above and I agree with both of them in different ways!

Jocko is right, I think, about how the transition may happen. He is also right about the attitude of the young to driving. It has become ludicrously expensive to get on the road with insurance being a particular bug bear. If you fancy a drink then a car is a flippin' nuisance to be honest. Tomorrow we are meeting my cousin and her husband for a meal. The restaurant requires me to drive so half a shandy or an alcohol free beer tops for me whilst my wife and the other 2 glug a few glasses of Malbec. I just hate that (taxi would be £80 btw).

There is also a long standing migration of people to city centre type locations. If you live in London then a car is largely superfluous as it is in some other cities like Manchester with a decent tram system.

All these have seen a steep decline in new drivers.

But Culzean is also right about the dumbing down thing. How far do we want technology to replace human skills? A future where you ask Alexa to pour you a beer, cook you a meal and then summon up a ride is a future of pure vegetation. I think it's interesting that there are movements towards relearning some of the old skills like growing food on allotments etc.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on November 08, 2017, 04:25:55 PM
All very well for the urban young to have no cars: lots of choice..

Those who live at the edge of /in the country/small towns have zero choice: bus?  err none /slow. taxi? cost?  metro/underground? none...
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 08, 2017, 04:36:06 PM
Those who live at the edge of /in the country/small towns have zero choice: bus?  err none /slow. taxi? cost?  metro/underground? none...
This is perfectly correct but I still see a future where you will be catered for by an autonomous vehicle. You may well own it, instead of hire it. But even if it is not autonomous, I'd like to bet it will be electric (or whatever comes along to replace EVs!).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 08, 2017, 05:09:09 PM
Go down the autonomous cab route. Those in the know reckon it could be on par with a bus fare, for trips around town. Just so much more convenient.
It will all come down to economics. While it is cheaper to own and use your own car then autonomous vehicles wont have a great take up. The first to change are the people who use taxis and Uber style hires. Many of those don't own cars at the moment. The young will lap them up too. Many young people have no interest in learning to drive (I had my provisional for my 17th birthday and was out on the road that morning). My two grandsons have no interest in car ownership or learning to drive. Why should they. They like to go out drinking with mates, they live with their girlfriends (no need for a back seat) and taxis are a way of life for them.


Those who live at the edge of /in the country/small towns have zero choice: bus?  err none /slow. taxi? cost?  metro/underground? none...
This is perfectly correct but I still see a future where you will be catered for by an autonomous vehicle. You may well own it, instead of hire it. But even if it is not autonomous, I'd like to bet it will be electric (or whatever comes along to replace EVs!).

Many millennials stay with their parents far too long, they are too comfortable and have no get-up-and-go.  They may prefer to rent a small city apartment as an easy option for a while but soon the suburbs will call..............

https://www.inc.com/dustin-mckissen/studies-show-millennials-are-moving-to-suburbs-employers-are-following.html

https://www.forbes.com/sites/axiometrics/2017/05/02/will-millennials-follow-in-parents-home-buying-footsteps/#2fb401e13b3b
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 09, 2017, 06:45:15 AM
Many of you will be delighted to see that a driverless shuttle bus, in Las Vegas, was involved in a crash within two hours of starting the trial.
In its favour was the fact that the bus stopped when an artic started to reverse back into an alley. The lorry didn't, and eventually struck the front of the bus. Not a lot the bus could have done, assuming it was programmed to deal with the situation, as a car had stopped behind it. Having said that, as an ex bus driver, our written SOP was NEVER to reverse the bus except at a bus station or the bus garage. In a similar situation our priority was to stop the bus and keep the passengers safe, not to worry about the vehicle getting damaged. Never mind though. The naysayers will have a field day.

http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/11/08/self-operating-shuttle-bus-crashes-after-las-vegas-launch/ (http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/11/08/self-operating-shuttle-bus-crashes-after-las-vegas-launch/)

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 09, 2017, 09:38:21 AM
Now here is a statistic .....

One hundred million. That’s the number of miles, on average, that it takes a human driver to kill someone in the United States. It’s also the number of miles Tesla’s semi-autonomous ‘Autopilot’ feature had racked up by May this year.

One fatal accident every 100,000,000 miles...  lets see if Autonomous vehicles can match that,  because if they can't their whole Raison D'etre is null and void. 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 09, 2017, 03:25:49 PM
Watched an interesting thing, courtesy of a link from "Fully Charged". It was an Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill Parliamentary Scrutiny Committee meeting, and the questioning regarding insurance was most enlightening.
The insurers are most enthusiastic, and don't see a problem with autonomous vehicles. They reckon they will be far safer, lead to considerably cheaper premiums (even a reduction in premiums for conventional vehicles), and will lead to better proportioning of blame in a accidents. Here is the link (there is a portion near the beginning where the meeting is private so it actually starts about 9:34 on the clock)
Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill Parliamentary Scrutiny Committee meeting (http://Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill Parliamentary Scrutiny Committee meeting)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 09, 2017, 04:47:30 PM
Is this the same parliamentary committee that told everyone to buy diesel because of their ultra clean exhausts that were going to stop climate change ? Politicians are pretty much lawyers and accountants and know Jack-sh!t about anything, they are easily manipulated by lobbyists and hype.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 09, 2017, 04:52:55 PM
It was the Insurance and Road Research Laboratory experts that were the ones of interest. The politicians were just asking the questions. The same questions I would have wanted to ask them.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 10, 2017, 10:28:04 AM
Is this the same parliamentary committee that told everyone to buy diesel because of their ultra clean exhausts that were going to stop climate change ? Politicians are pretty much lawyers and accountants and know Jack-sh!t about anything, they are easily manipulated by lobbyists and hype.

Interesting you should bring this up. Had a meal last night with my cousin and her husband. He is a retired mechanical engineer who spent all his working life in and around the motor industry. He said that the dirty truth about diesel was known when the decision to encourage take up was made. A classic example of box ticking politics by the government of the day.

He was interesting on the subject of autonomous cars. He is firmly of the opinion that the idea that we will all be using autonomous cars anytime soon and in great numbers is strictly for the birds. Widespread uptake is many many years away. The big motor companies are getting involved but his sources indicate that planning for new conventional petrol and diesel cars are still in progress and new conventional models will be coming on to the market for years to come.

I wonder if, like the paperless office and nuclear energy so cheap it wouldn't be worth billing people for, these ideas of flying autonomous cars will be seen to be another prediction that is some way wide of the mark. There will be autonomous vehicles but possibly in limited applications.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 10, 2017, 11:02:57 AM
Is this the same parliamentary committee that told everyone to buy diesel because of their ultra clean exhausts that were going to stop climate change ? Politicians are pretty much lawyers and accountants and know Jack-sh!t about anything, they are easily manipulated by lobbyists and hype.

Interesting you should bring this up. Had a meal last night with my cousin and her husband. He is a retired mechanical engineer who spent all his working life in and around the motor industry. He said that the dirty truth about diesel was known when the decision to encourage take up was made. A classic example of box ticking politics by the government of the day.

He was interesting on the subject of autonomous cars. He is firmly of the opinion that the idea that we will all be using autonomous cars anytime soon and in great numbers is strictly for the birds. Widespread uptake is many many years away. The big motor companies are getting involved but his sources indicate that planning for new conventional petrol and diesel cars are still in progress and new conventional models will be coming on to the market for years to come.

I wonder if, like the paperless office and nuclear energy so cheap it wouldn't be worth billing people for, these ideas of flying autonomous cars will be seen to be another prediction that is some way wide of the mark. There will be autonomous vehicles but possibly in limited applications.

Apparently the 'visual' (spacial) maps needed for Waymo / Google autonomous vehicles to function (they are like Google streetview) have to be massively detailed which results in massive files and at the moment limits their use to small areas (and presumably slows down processing times).  Don't know what will happen when on larger roads with no real closely spaced visual clues, or if someone builds a new building or a new roundabout appears or a road gets re-routed (we all now what can happen on normal satnav). Seems that the streetview files will need constant updating.

My brother in law comment when he had his first satnav many years ago is very telling, he said 'I get to places but haven't a clue where the place is or how I got there' - didn't know if he had driven North, South, East or West !  Big tech doesn't care about the public, and whether autonomous cars are a solution looking for the problem or not,  all they care about is their bottom line......  They don't give a sh!t about how dumb our lives get as long as the dollars keep rolling in.  If Darwin was right about evolution,  right now our brains are shrinking and pretty soon our legs will wither (but our bodies will keep getting fatter).

Alexa order my autonomous car for 7-30......... and then cook my breakfast and make coffee, Oh iron my shirt and turn the TV on as well..............
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 10, 2017, 12:26:09 PM
I think the deskilling of humanity is a serious issue. It might be widening the debate beyond electric cars but a recent report in Prospect magazine indicated that the widely held view that excessive eating was the sole factor behind the obesity epidemic was way wide of the mark. Actual average calorific consumption had actually declined but inactivity had massively increased. Women do 7 hours a week less housework than they used to do, time spent commuting had increased, all sorts of other jobs had been outsourced - washing your own car marks you out as an eccentric where I live. A minority might be out jogging but the broad mass of the population rarely gets up off its collective bottom preferring machines and screens to take over their lives.

"Progress" isn't always for the best.

Maybe the Luddites had a point.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on November 10, 2017, 12:48:59 PM
I think the deskilling of humanity is a serious issue. It might be widening the debate beyond electric cars but a recent report in Prospect magazine indicated that the widely held view that excessive eating was the sole factor behind the obesity epidemic was way wide of the mark. Actual average calorific consumption had actually declined but inactivity had massively increased. Women do 7 hours a week less housework than they used to do, time spent commuting had increased, all sorts of other jobs had been outsourced - washing your own car marks you out as an eccentric where I live. A minority might be out jogging but the broad mass of the population rarely gets up off its collective bottom preferring machines and screens to take over their lives.

"Progress" isn't always for the best.

Maybe the Luddites had a point.

Obviously not seen the trolleys in Asda full of fizzy drinks and bread and pies..

"Britons are increasingly under-reporting their daily calorie consumption according to a new study, which could hamper the efforts of health experts to cut rising obesity levels."

"Participants in the study consumed closer to 3,000 calories on average, compared to the 2,000 often reported by adults in official statistics."


https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/aug/08/britons-under-reporting-calorie-intake-tell-us-how-much-you-really-eat
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 10, 2017, 02:25:10 PM
http://www.thedrive.com/opinion/7324/the-way-we-talk-about-autonomy-is-a-lie-and-thats-dangerous

Interesting article, comment below this article also mentions google self-driving test cars have a massive computer server in the boot to handle the massive amounts of data their system requires,  and that is just for very restricted area use, and data will need continual updating.

Another point is does each LIDAR have its own unique frequency to prevent other vehicles picking up stray or reflected or direct pulses from other cars ? Same with vehicle to vehicle radio comms, how does that work with vehicles closely packed together, and the bandwidth required.  A telling thing in article is that no progress has been made even in USA on this, no infrastructure exists.

Extract from comment on article.......

Good article,  but it ignores one thing about the current "autonomous" cars operated by Google et al: These cars essentially have a server farm in their trunk that stores a 3D map of the entire city they are operating in.  Any changes to the city's roads require re-scanning and update of this 3D map.  This is completely impractical for widespread use.  In order for an autonomous car to be feasible for widespread use, it must be able to operate on much less pre-populated data.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on November 10, 2017, 02:54:50 PM
Women do 7 hours a week less housework than they used to do

Shocking! How much more housework do me do?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on November 10, 2017, 03:45:32 PM
I do 168 hours housework every week..
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TG on November 10, 2017, 03:52:07 PM
Any changes to the city's roads require re-scanning and update of this 3D map.  This is completely impractical for widespread use.
Presumably this is accomplished exactly the same way existing 2D sat nav paths are updated and refined by sampling the collective data fed back by the users, of course it helps the first one down any route to have seeded data just as the test vehicles are collecting, processing and re-using.  The strengths of autonomy is that knowledge will be shared - as soon as a couple of vehicles have gone by the skip on the road, every other car will be expecting it; the pedestrian hidden by the bus will be made known to vehicles behind by the first one to pass them.
--
TG
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 10, 2017, 04:05:15 PM
I don't know about LIDAR but sophisticated RADAR uses a system whereby the pulse time and duration is random generated and the receiver knows what signal it is looking for. RADAR also uses narrow band discrete frequencies, but interference can occur, especially in busy coastal waters like the Channel and Solent. Something will have to be engineered to allow mass use of LIDAR.
The size of the computers used at present is down to them being four wheel laboratories and the eventual production vehicles will have much smaller systems installed. The size of chips is falling at a tremendous rate and every year you can squeeze more onto a chip than you did last year. That also dramatically reduces the energy requirements of the computer.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on November 10, 2017, 08:04:42 PM
Any changes to the city's roads require re-scanning and update of this 3D map.  This is completely impractical for widespread use.
Presumably this is accomplished exactly the same way existing 2D sat nav paths are updated and refined by sampling the collective data fed back by the users, of course it helps the first one down any route to have seeded data just as the test vehicles are collecting, processing and re-using.  The strengths of autonomy is that knowledge will be shared - as soon as a couple of vehicles have gone by the skip on the road, every other car will be expecting it; the pedestrian hidden by the bus will be made known to vehicles behind by the first one to pass them.
--


TG

So stupendous quantities of data will be fed in real time to a central processing point and redistrubuted to autonamous vehicles in real time. In a country where rural areas have limited signal access and areas like tunnels, between mountains where there is none--- this is all going to be very challengeing . The current mobile network will look like a child's toy.. And when one local feed goes down, - which it will - what happens? All fall down?

You are talking invetsments which make mobile telecomms look like  a child's plaything.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 10, 2017, 08:30:54 PM
From everything I have read, cars will communicate with each other via WiFi. The only time they will communicate with a central hub will be for downloading data and uploading updates.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 10, 2017, 09:02:34 PM
Any changes to the city's roads require re-scanning and update of this 3D map.  This is completely impractical for widespread use.
Presumably this is accomplished exactly the same way existing 2D sat nav paths are updated and refined by sampling the collective data fed back by the users, of course it helps the first one down any route to have seeded data just as the test vehicles are collecting, processing and re-using.  The strengths of autonomy is that knowledge will be shared - as soon as a couple of vehicles have gone by the skip on the road, every other car will be expecting it; the pedestrian hidden by the bus will be made known to vehicles behind by the first one to pass them.
--


TG

So stupendous quantities of data will be fed in real time to a central processing point and redistrubuted to autonamous vehicles in real time. In a country where rural areas have limited signal access and areas like tunnels, between mountains where there is none--- this is all going to be very challengeing . The current mobile network will look like a child's toy.. And when one local feed goes down, - which it will - what happens? All fall down?

You are talking investments which make mobile telecomms look like  a child's plaything.

+100

As usual there is loads of hype and expectation around at the moment,  the devil is in the detail - no infrastructure is available at the moment to talk between vehicles let alone allow the sort of thing TG suggests.  Those 3D road layout files are huge, its like a 3D video but with global locations and distances data included.

Anyone with a satnav has had dropouts around tall buildings,  and mobile phone apps are probably worse, including around mountains and in rural areas.

Self-driving vehicles,  a solution looking for a problem to solve,  1 death every 100,000,000 miles of 'human driving'  is a hard act to follow, chances are the control system will be programmed to protect occupants rather than pedestrians, so we are gonna need continuous armco along all our roads to shield the pavement. Most autonomous vehicle crunches so far (and there have been more than a few, in which the self driving vehicle is never to blame according to google) have been low speed affairs with more damage to pride of google than to vehicle,  but a crash at highway speed is another thing all together.  I would bet good money that the sensor system on these vehicles will have a hard time seeing potholes,  and they can cause major crashes.  I also bet that the sensors can't differentiate between a paper or plastic bag blowing in the road and a real obstacle,  something humans do without thinking.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 11, 2017, 09:50:06 AM
There were 1732 deaths on UK roads in 2016. If you can reduce that by 90% (the number of accidents caused by human error), you save 1558 lives.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 11, 2017, 10:05:29 AM
There were 1732 deaths on UK roads in 2016. If you can reduce that by 90% (the number of accidents caused by human error), you save 1558 lives.

Not if you replace those 'supposed' human errors and more by computer, software and sensor error.  It is pure supposition and conjecture at present to assume autonomous cars will be safer than Human drivers, there is no real data,  just a few highly supervised vehicles trundling around with no other auto cars to interfere with them.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/when-it-comes-to-safety-autonomous-cars-are-still-teen-drivers1/

Only time will tell,  and that time is certainly not now, that time will be in 40 years time when autonomous cars are more common on the roads.  Google, Uber et tal have been quick to blame humans for accidents up to now, but in certain cases when these companies swore that a human was in charge at the time some employees have spoken out to refute the claims and confirmed it was the auto vehicles fault.   We need honesty from these companies,  but corporate greed and honesty have never been comfortable bed-fellows in cut-throat business world.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: auntyneddy on November 11, 2017, 11:39:05 AM
One way to save lives and the drinks industry is the reason it's not done in this country is make it NO alcohol in the blood. As some Scandinavian countries have done. Enforce the mobile telephone legislation and tighten up on the appalling driving standards of some.
Before you all shout foul, go out an pick up the pieces after an RTA, then shout foul if you still think this is draconian.
I suppose an EV can't ever be accused of drunk driving.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 11, 2017, 12:20:44 PM
One way to save lives and the drinks industry is the reason it's not done in this country is make it NO alcohol in the blood. As some Scandinavian countries have done. Enforce the mobile telephone legislation and tighten up on the appalling driving standards of some.
Before you all shout foul, go out an pick up the pieces after an RTA, then shout foul if you still think this is draconian.
I suppose an EV can't ever be accused of drunk driving.

I agree entirely about zero tolerance on blood alcohol,  I would also be very hard on any driver involved in fatal accident due to distraction by phone use in car - they would be charged with manslaughter and expect a sentence of 20 years minimum,  they have killed someone by their stupid selfish actions just as surely as if they had stabbed or shot them.

EV may have foreign things in its circuitry because it has been hacked / infected with a virus,  so maybe any EV involved in a shunt needs to have a virus check LOL
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on November 11, 2017, 02:24:45 PM
One way to save lives and the drinks industry is the reason it's not done in this country is make it NO alcohol in the blood. As some Scandinavian countries have done. Enforce the mobile telephone legislation and tighten up on the appalling driving standards of some.
Before you all shout foul, go out an pick up the pieces after an RTA, then shout foul if you still think this is draconian.
I suppose an EV can't ever be accused of drunk driving.

My solution for driving whilst on the mobile is simple: confiscate the phone and destroy the sim card. The resulting aggro for the offender trying to put their phone together again  (Yes I know many do back up.. but I suspect a minority) might have a significant deterrent effect..
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 11, 2017, 03:25:17 PM
Google, Uber et tal have been quick to blame humans for accidents up to now, but in certain cases when these companies swore that a human was in charge at the time some employees have spoken out to refute the claims and confirmed it was the auto vehicles fault.
The discussions for the Electric and Autonomous Vehicles Select committee were particularly enlightening. To be allowed on UK roads the autonomous vehicles must be on an approved list, and to qualify for that list the data must be available from all the vehicle sensors, for accident investigation. The data will also show when the vehicle was being driven by a human and when it was under autonomous control. Another thing to come out of the discussions was that the autonomous mode could only be used on Motorways and Dual Carriageways. And the car would have the final say in when autonomous mode could be selected. So no "Shoot. I'm about to crash. Bang it in autonomous mode".
Obviously, the regulations can be changed when, well in the future, Level 5 vehicles are proven safe and effective.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on November 11, 2017, 11:38:35 PM
Enforce the mobile telephone legislation and tighten up on the appalling driving standards of some.
Before you all shout foul, go out an pick up the pieces after an RTA, then shout foul if you still think this is draconian.

The problem is that the punishment depends upon the outcome, and not the offence.

For the many thousands that routinely get away with speeding, drink driving or mobile use, an unlucky few hundred might get a fine and penalty points, or in the case of drink driving, a ban. One or two out of this number might cause an accident, or even kill someone. They might be vilified and get 10 years in prison, but the initial offence that caused, or contributed to, that terrible outcome is exactly the same offence committed by the hundreds that get fines.

It might sound extreme, but if people thought that drink driving, using a mobile, or even speeding, would result in a prison stretch, how many would risk it?

All a bit off topic, but anything that can reduce the scope for human error, including autonomous vehicles, has to be a good thing. Of course, they would have to be proven to be at least as safe as a human driver, and that should be entirely possible.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 12, 2017, 12:51:25 PM
Tesla Model S Shooting-brake. Looking forward to seeing this finished.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=7&v=Ydb9TW3Bmh8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=7&v=Ydb9TW3Bmh8)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 12, 2017, 03:16:56 PM
One way to save lives and the drinks industry is the reason it's not done in this country is make it NO alcohol in the blood. As some Scandinavian countries have done. Enforce the mobile telephone legislation and tighten up on the appalling driving standards of some.
Before you all shout foul, go out an pick up the pieces after an RTA, then shout foul if you still think this is draconian.
I suppose an EV can't ever be accused of drunk driving.

I'd go along with a reduction to 20 mg which some countries have adopted. This is a quarter of the current legal limit and caters for those borderline cases where a small trace of alcohol is present but not at any dangerous levels. A few years ago (2014 in fact) we were on holiday in the Czech Republic which has, I gather, a zero limit but a sliding scale of penalties and with an element of police discretion.

Certainly our limit is too high. If an average sized man drank 3 pints of low strength beer - like a 3.8% bitter - he would likely squeak under our limit. There is no way he would be safe to drive though.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 12, 2017, 04:50:25 PM
Scotland is 50 mg. I don't even have a drink the evening before a morning drive now. Just not worth it.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 13, 2017, 10:34:54 AM
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/bu_1004_charging_an_electric_vehicle
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/electric_vehicle_ev

These are interesting articles, to allow for battery degradation the batteries are oversized to start with but the depth of charge and discharge are limited, as the battery ages these limits are moved to account for loss of capacity,  the owner therefore thinks the battery is not actually losing capacity as the range may not decrease much,  but more of the battery is being bought into usage, downside is that this extra depth of usage degrades the battery more rapidly.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 13, 2017, 12:30:19 PM
Doesn't really matter how they go about governing the life of battery as long as it works and you get the life they quote. Works for me.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 13, 2017, 03:15:06 PM
Trouble is oversizing the battery adds weight, which means it needs more power to move the vehicle. Bit like carrying 20 gallons of petrol but only having access to 12.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on November 13, 2017, 08:55:52 PM
Trouble is oversizing the battery adds weight, which means it needs more power to move the vehicle. Bit like carrying 20 gallons of petrol but only having access to 12.
Which reminds me of my hybrid Jazz. Only once did I see the battery charge level drop below half. Honda appear to have been very protective of the lead acid hybrid battery used in that vehicle. That's good for longevity - no one here has reported needing a battery replacement - but not so good for fuel efficiency.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on November 13, 2017, 09:09:28 PM
Trouble is oversizing the battery adds weight, which means it needs more power to move the vehicle. Bit like carrying 20 gallons of petrol but only having access to 12.
Which reminds me of my hybrid Jazz. Only once did I see the battery charge level drop below half. Honda appear to have been very protective of the lead acid hybrid battery used in that vehicle. That's good for longevity - no one here has reported needing a battery replacement - but not so good for fuel efficiency.

Toyota hybrids are the same.. only approx 40% of battery capacity is usable to conserve battery life.. When a new battery is £3k that seems an eminently sensible approach..
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 14, 2017, 09:22:42 AM
If anyone doubted the challenges of making new chemistry batteries that actually get through the testing and life proving stage into actual production read this article. even a small degradation in capacity at each charge / discharge cycle can have a big impact on longevity, and hence the viability of the battery in real life. Some of the announced 'major breakthroughs' in battery technology fall down when longer testing is done.

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/better-batteries-charge-forward



Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 17, 2017, 07:48:22 AM
Tesla finally announce its electric truck AND a new sports car.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/nov/17/elon-musk-tesla-electric-truck-sports-car-surprise (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/nov/17/elon-musk-tesla-electric-truck-sports-car-surprise)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 17, 2017, 08:42:37 AM
Just watched the full release video. Okay, it's all hype, but what amazing vehicles.
The new AWD Tesla Roadster 2+2 does 0 - 60 in 1.9 seconds, 8.9 second quarter mile, top speed 250+, 620 mile range at highway speeds and has an amazing 10,000 Nm of torque. Available 2020.
The artics are out of this world, with a 500 mile range at 60 mph, hauling 80,000 lbs. They use Megachargers, which will give a 400 mile charge in 30 minutes. 1,000,000 mile drivetrain warranty. Available 2019.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 17, 2017, 09:50:45 AM
I forgot to mention. The Artic tractor unit will do 0 - 60 in 5 seconds and hauling 80,000 lbs (max load allowed to be hauled in US) will do 0 - 60 in 20 seconds. And no gears to change. It has a Cd of 0.36.
(https://s1.reutersmedia.net/resources/r/?m=02&d=20171117&t=2&i=1210195009&r=LYNXMPEDAG090&w=1280)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 17, 2017, 09:51:55 AM
The new roadster.
(https://cdn0.tnwcdn.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/2017/11/Tesla-Roadster-back.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 17, 2017, 03:57:24 PM
Tesla finally announce its electric truck AND a new sports car.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/nov/17/elon-musk-tesla-electric-truck-sports-car-surprise (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/nov/17/elon-musk-tesla-electric-truck-sports-car-surprise)

Musk will go down as one of histories great showmen, how many more rabbits are in his oversized hat.
Reckon he is just trying to keep the spotlight on his company to try to distract from the progress that
Detroit and other 'archaic' vehicle builders are making,  real progress and guess what,  they actually have
the skills to volume build their vehicles,  watch and learn big boy !!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on November 17, 2017, 05:10:22 PM
Musk will go down as one of histories great showmen, how many more rabbits are in his oversized hat.

You know, what we need is a Monorail

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDOI0cq6GZM

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on November 17, 2017, 05:15:53 PM
Musk deserves a lot of credit for pushing the boundaries, IMHO. Many of his concepts may seem wacky, but some of his plans labelled as loopy years ago are now reality.

It just goes to show how far you can actually get from a standing start, when you have conviction and a big pile of cash.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 17, 2017, 05:47:25 PM
Musk deserves a lot of credit for pushing the boundaries, IMHO. Many of his concepts may seem wacky, but some of his plans labelled as loopy years ago are now reality.

It just goes to show how far you can actually get from a standing start, when you have conviction and a big pile of cash.

A big pile of other people's cash, they may even get a little bit of it back if they are very lucky and sell their shares before the house of cards falls down...........
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 17, 2017, 05:49:33 PM
Musk will go down as one of histories great showmen, how many more rabbits are in his oversized hat.

You know, what we need is a Monorail

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDOI0cq6GZM

Yeah, love the Simpsons, and that episode was typical of the hype that goes on..........
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 17, 2017, 06:05:38 PM
A big pile of other people's cash, they may even get a little bit of it back if they are very lucky and sell their shares before the house of cards falls down...........
Most of Tesla's big investors are smart money men, who make shewed investments and walk away with a profit. Many are big managed funds. Those guys don't risk their money.
Fidelity® Contrafund® is a huge investor in Tesla. They manage a $107 billion fund. No mugs there.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 17, 2017, 06:42:23 PM
I remember when the BBC today programme had five year olds picking shares and 'smart money men' doing the same,  I guess you know what is coming? The kids did better- could have probably done the same with monkies and the money men.  It is a guessing game, and when a bandwagon appears the smart money men fall over themselves to get on it, scared of missing something - but sometimes it is the 'emperors new clothes' and no one will step out of line.  The smart money men should have seen 2007/8 crash coming, but guess what - they were part of it and their gullibility and greed caused it......

Tesla has managed to squeeze a lot of federal and state money as well, but its not their money, and if they lose it they just put taxes up......

Warren Buffet, America's most consistent and successful investor will not buy Tesla shares,  guess what he invested $10Billion in General Motors,  now that is smart.

here is what Buffet said ...

Companies with big capital needs, but low profit potential - don't touch them

He said in his letter to shareholders, "The worst sort of business is one that grows rapidly, requires significant capital to engender the growth, and then earns little or no money."


You could be forgiven for thinking he was talking about Tesla specifically
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 17, 2017, 07:37:13 PM
It's interesting - the whole Tesla thing. I think Culzean has a point. If you want an affordable new EV most people will think "Nissan Leaf" - if you want a used EV, there is a critical mass of used Leafs for sale. If you now want an affordable EV that will do 150 miles plus - well Nissan are there again with the second generation Leaf at vaguely affordable prices. In the meantime there are people who stumped up a £1,000 reservation fee for the Tesla Model 3 nearly 2 years ago now - they are still waiting.

So at least one traditional car maker is in pole position in the EV market.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 17, 2017, 07:55:39 PM
It's interesting - the whole Tesla thing. I think Culzean has a point. If you want an affordable new EV most people will think "Nissan Leaf" - if you want a used EV, there is a critical mass of used Leafs for sale. If you now want an affordable EV that will do 150 miles plus - well Nissan are there again with the second generation Leaf at vaguely affordable prices. In the meantime there are people who stumped up a £1,000 reservation fee for the Tesla Model 3 nearly 2 years ago now - they are still waiting.

So at least one traditional car maker is in pole position in the EV market.

Exactly,  I have significant experience of car industry and it is a high volume low margin business, Tesla will be overtaken soon by traditional car makers who have the resources, infrastructure and skills to make large volumes of cars,  while Tesla will be more like Aston-Martin - producing high margin cars but not many of them - Tesla at present has about $4billion of capital and over $7 billion of debt.  All of the other 'silicon valley' wannabee car makers dropped out of trying to make cars and decided to concentrate on the technology,  only Musk / Tesla left and his position gets more tenuous by the day.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 17, 2017, 10:12:56 PM
while Tesla will be more like Aston-Martin - producing high margin cars but not many of them
So what you are saying is Tesla and Aston Martin are both crap because they both build some of the best cars of their class. Aston Martin spent years pushing the envelope and now Tesla are doing it with EVs.
And today it has been announced that Jaguar are trialling driverless cars in the streets of Coventry. Not that it counts. After all Jaguar is another niche market, selling luxury performance cars.
Tesla sells a lot of cars. The company's Model S was the world's best-selling plug-in electric car in 2015 and 2016. Global sales of the Model S reached 150,000 units in November 2016. In September 2015 the company released its Model X. The Model 3 was released in July 2017. Tesla global sales passed 250,000 units in September 2017. Nissan sold more than 250,000 Leafs worldwide through December 2016, making the Leaf the world's all-time best-selling highway-capable electric car in history. But not all that far ahead of Tesla.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 17, 2017, 10:35:07 PM
I suppose the acid test will be in, say, 10 years time. Who will be selling and producing the most EVs? At some point, or so they keep telling us, it will possible to buy electric cars for the same price as ICE cars. Will Tesla be knocking out millions of supermini sized electric cars at, say, £15,000 in today's money?

My guess is that they won't and that mass market will be dominated by the usual suspects. Tesla may not be as niche as Aston Martin but they may well remain a luxury car brand. A BMW or a Mercedes and not a Ford or a Toyota.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 18, 2017, 10:05:15 AM
while Tesla will be more like Aston-Martin - producing high margin cars but not many of them
Not that it counts. After all Jaguar is another niche market, selling luxury performance cars.
Tesla sells a lot of cars.

Tesla is not even in the same league as JLR,  who produced and sold over 550,000 cars in 2016 (that is more than 1 vehicle a minute 24/7/365),  while Tesla sold just over 70,000 in the same period.  It has taken Tesla from 2003 until nearly end of 2017 (14 years, or about 18,000 cars per year) to produce less than half the number of vehicles JLR produced in just one year,  and as you say JLR is a niche manufacturer of luxury high performance cars.

For  a 'niche' luxury, high end car producer JLR sure shifts a lot of cars - musk and his team should visit their factory to see how the proper car companies do things .....

In 2016 Toyota produced over 10 million vehicles (including trucks and other) which is pretty impressive,   even Honda made nearly 5 million cars (but they were all cars) and 17 million motorcycles in 2016.

As I have said before car making is a cut-throat, high volume low margin business, not a hobby or pastime.  A couple of the companies I worked for made parts for car makers their volumes were huge,  but the profit per part was low - the penalty clause for say BMW Mini were £250,000 per hour if you short shipped them and stopped their production line,  at one time our company had equipment problems and we had a fleet of Transit vans running to Oxford and back like a conveyor belt,  until we could produce enough parts to start filling the HGV lorries again.  Every nut, bolt. rivet and operation is costed down to fractions of a penny, if a supplier is inefficient they can have a full order book,  be running 24/7 and still lose money.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 18, 2017, 10:08:07 AM
Tesla may very well go to the wall. There are many automotive leaders over the years who failed to survive.
Hispano-Suiza (ended up building turbines), Argyll (twice), Jowett, Jensen, Lea-Francis, Armstrong-Siddeley, Bristol and more recently, Lotus.
Then there were all the others who were unable to exist on their own and were absorbed by big manufacturers such as Bentley, Riley, Wolseley et al.
All of these were, and still are, motoring milestones. leaders in innovation in automobile engineering. Just because they failed to survive doesn't mean they are any less worthy. And Tesla, whether they fail or survive, should be treated with the same respect.
If Tesla hadn't come on the scene we would still only have a few 80 mile range Nissan Leafs and Prius and Insight hybrids. Tesla took the EV idea, ran with it, and dragged all the big manufacturers into the 21st Century. I'd like to see them survive, if for no other reason than we need dreamers to push technology and engineering forward, and to shake some life into the fuddy duddys who want to live in the past.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 18, 2017, 10:31:26 AM
I agree with both Jocko and Culzean and they don't agree with each other - how does that work??!!

I think Elon Musk is an innovator - we need people like him to push boundaries and explore what is possible. That said I can't see his company displacing the big boys any time soon - rather he will trail blaze. A bit like James Dyson who isn't, as I understand it, the biggest manufacturer of vacuum cleaners but is a leading innovator leading where others follow.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 18, 2017, 10:54:43 AM
I agree with both Jocko and Culzean and they don't agree with each other - how does that work??!!

You need to draw a Venn diagram with Jocko and me as separate circles and you as a circle overlapping both of our circles LOL

A bit like James Dyson who isn't, as I understand it, the biggest manufacturer of vacuum cleaners but is a leading innovator leading where others follow.

Dyson could not patent the bagless vortex vacuum because it was not his idea - that is why Hoover and Vax et al bought them out so quickly after Dyson - (they had been making most of their money selling vacuum bags to customers - nice little earner, same with inkjet printers and ink, they could afford give the printers away if people had to buy the ink from them).  Vortex had been around since 1920's and he saw it in operation when he was young at a sawmill sucking up sawdust.  It is also used on compressed air systems to remove water droplets from compressed air.

Dyson has large R&D facility in Maidenhead, Berks. and is branching out into all sorts of stuff,  including rumours of an EV - I would concentrate on the tech and keep away from making vehicles - remember what happened to (Sir) Clive Sinclair ? He was an innovator as well,  but his products after computers were deeply flawed.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on November 19, 2017, 11:16:38 AM
Stand by for graphene-based hybrid supercapacitor technology...

500 mile range and 1 minute recharge!

https://electrek.co/2017/11/14/fisker-solid-state-battery-breakthrough-electric-cars/
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 19, 2017, 11:31:07 AM
Technology is moving at a phenomenal rate. I started in the valve era, moved on through transistors, into integrated circuits and ended up working in a chip manufacturing fab for 10 years. The rate of change during my working life was unbelievable. I used to install transistors into the ELDO inertial navigation systems, that cost the same as an E-type Jag. By the 1980's I was buying the same at a pound for 10.
Scientists are currently working on things that we cannot conceive. Technology is always progressing, finding answers to questions and questions for answers.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: MartinJG on November 19, 2017, 01:07:00 PM

Seems to me it is all about energy storage. Currently, this is not commercially viable on a large scale. Crack that nut and we literally jump to a new dimension. But I suspect 'the crack' will be more the result of a slow process of cumulative R&D. Solve that one and the implications are immense as solar energy can then be converted, bottled, stored and distributed. Meanwhile, the EV early adopters are financing R&D. 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 19, 2017, 03:31:54 PM
Stand by for graphene-based hybrid supercapacitor technology...

500 mile range and 1 minute recharge!

https://electrek.co/2017/11/14/fisker-solid-state-battery-breakthrough-electric-cars/

Then why are they using Li-ion in their cars,  this company has a history of making wild claims,  this is just one more.  Trouble is with capacitors compared to batteries is that their voltage drops as they discharge,  batteries store a chemical reaction that is capable of maintaining output voltage until battery is pretty well exhausted  capacitors store electricity directly,  and they have a 'discharge curve' where as they discharge the terminal voltage drops.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 19, 2017, 03:58:07 PM

Seems to me it is all about energy storage. Currently, this is not commercially viable on a large scale. Crack that nut and we literally jump to a new dimension. But I suspect 'the crack' will be more the result of a slow process of cumulative R&D. Solve that one and the implications are immense as solar energy can then be converted, bottled, stored and distributed. Meanwhile, the EV early adopters are financing R&D.

The early EV adopters are being somewhat subsdised by taxpayer and electricity users as a whole.

Attached PDF is a photo I took yesterday of gridwatch dashboard,  if you hover mouse over the meter it brings up the label shown.  What it is saying is that the solar that is deployed in UK at present is making little or no difference to demand at midday (when solar is strongest and you would expect it to replace demand on other sources of electricity, at least for a few hours ) they are seeing no such  evidence - they admit the figure for solar they show on their meter is being  'generous',  and figure shown was just above 3%. 

There is an installed solar PV capacity in UK (as of May 2017) of 12,318 megawatt,  yesterday panels were supposedly generating about 1.4GW,  which as the site states  is an 'overestimate' as they are not seeing any such affect from solar on the grid to lessen demand from other sources.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on November 19, 2017, 04:05:07 PM
capacitors store electricity directly,  and they have a 'discharge curve' where as they discharge the terminal voltage drops.

To be fair, there are ways around that - the important thing is the amount of energy stored, if indeed the technology works at all.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 19, 2017, 04:11:02 PM
Then why are they using Li-ion in their cars,  this company has a history of making wild claims,  this is just one more.  Trouble is with capacitors compared to batteries is that their voltage drops as they discharge,  batteries store a chemical reaction that is capable of maintaining output voltage until battery is pretty well exhausted  capacitors store electricity directly,  and they have a 'discharge curve' where as they discharge the terminal voltage drops.
They are only just patenting the technology. If they get a patent (not automatic), and the technology is developed (they may license the development to a more able third party), we may see a working, saleable product in the not too distant future. Unless something else comes along sooner!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 19, 2017, 04:20:51 PM
The good thing about EVs is it doesn't matter where the electricity comes from. Solar, nuclear, coal, all the same when it comes out of the charger.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 19, 2017, 04:40:14 PM
capacitors store electricity directly,  and they have a 'discharge curve' where as they discharge the terminal voltage drops.

To be fair, there are ways around that - the important thing is the amount of energy stored, if indeed the technology works at all.

Problem with capacitors they don't store anywhere near the power of li-ion batteries, and it leaks away - they can stand many more charge-discharge cycles than li-ion and can be fully charged and discharged without damage, they can absorb and release power very quickly, but they are more complementary to batteries than competing with them. Could maybe be used to capture regenerated energy that will be used again  fairly quickly - trouble is all this is adding extra weight to the EV.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: MartinJG on November 19, 2017, 05:10:27 PM

Seems to me it is all about energy storage. Currently, this is not commercially viable on a large scale. Crack that nut and we literally jump to a new dimension. But I suspect 'the crack' will be more the result of a slow process of cumulative R&D. Solve that one and the implications are immense as solar energy can then be converted, bottled, stored and distributed. Meanwhile, the EV early adopters are financing R&D.

The early EV adopters are being somewhat subsdised by taxpayer and electricity users as a whole.

Attached PDF is a photo I took yesterday of gridwatch dashboard,  if you hover mouse over the meter it brings up the label shown.  What it is saying is that the solar that is deployed in UK at present is making little or no difference to demand at midday (when solar is strongest and you would expect it to replace demand on other sources of electricity, at least for a few hours ) they are seeing no such so evidence - they admit the figure for solar they show on their meter is being  'generous',  and figure shown was just above 3%. 

There is an installed solar PV capacity in UK (as of May 2017) of 12,318 megawatt,  yesterday panels were supposedly generating about 1.4GW,  which as the site states  is an 'overestimate' as they are not seeing any such affect from solar on the grid to lessen demand from other sources.

Yes to subsidies, as with windpower and most forms of 'green' energy. Nice ideas but not really very viable in the UK.

On the solar energy, I was thinking more specifically about countries with abundant sunshine. So, all those useless deserts will suddenly have a commercial use, politics and big money permitting. Somewhat ironic that the oil producers in the middle east for instance could be ushering out the old and ushering in the new. However, terrorism is probably a big problem. Don't think it takes too much effort to blow up acres of solar panels and I think terrorism in its many guises is here to stay. Find a way through that minefield and the technological pitfalls and it seems to me there is huge harvesting potential but the middle east is not the only place blessed with plenty of sunshine. There are miles and miles of 'outback' in Australia which, as things stand, is largely the preserve of wildlife and a few natives and they are reasonably stable apart from when it comes to the Ashes.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 19, 2017, 07:11:01 PM
The US also has huge areas with abundant solar energy. They are already building PV installations on the roofs of supermarkets, warehouses and malls. Walmart is self sufficient in energy, in some areas.
Capacitors do lose there charge over time (as do batteries), but this is dependant on construction and type. I have worked with huge capacitors that kept their charge as long as batteries. And as for the amount of energy they can store, that can be enormous. Again it just depends on size how they are configured. Some hypermilers are already using super capacitors instead of batteries.
And we are talking about entire new technology with Graphene super capacitors, so who knows how good they may end up.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 19, 2017, 07:16:59 PM
bit of info about difference between capacitors and batteries.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/whats_the_role_of_the_supercapacitor
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: MartinJG on November 19, 2017, 07:59:49 PM

Yes, it occurred to me after I posted that the USA is where it is all happening at the moment and they are certainly not short of sunshine. Probably a dash of contrarian thinking. The principle of energy storage is a given but is existing battery technology barking up the wrong tree? No problems with the electric motor but it seems there are considerable physical hurdles to clear and I wonder whether there will be a rethink on how to actually store/generate/access/convert energy into electricity.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 19, 2017, 08:25:03 PM
bit of info about difference between capacitors and batteries.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/whats_the_role_of_the_supercapacitor

Interesting article. It mentions Graphene Electrodes being 15 years away, but the original article was published 7 years ago so perhaps Fischer's patent will see their forecast correct.

Regarding storage, battery technology is almost 370 years old (although it may be even older, as an urn, uncovered in Baghdad, may have been an early battery. Discovered in the 1930s, the urn dated back to sometime between 250 B.C. and A.D. 250. The artefact contained a copper pipe with an iron rod in its centre - which could have served as the battery's electrodes - and had an asphalt cork at the top. Still inside the urn was the residue of an acidic liquid that could possibly have provided the electrolyte element). It is about time science came up with a better way of storing electricity!

And talking of subsidies. I see the oil industry have their hands out hoping for tax changes in this week's budget, to help them out.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: MartinJG on November 19, 2017, 10:34:47 PM

Well there are a lot of high profile vested interests in oil, not least the dollar. Not everyone has an interest in progress.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: auntyneddy on November 20, 2017, 08:57:56 AM
This am on TV was an item from our local station. A Farmer in Cornwall who is well into solar energy is working on electricity storage.  The storage units appeared to be in two ship containers ( may be more but typical Farmer being cagey)  The storage medium? is Vanadium suspended in a liquid. The electrons attach to the Vanadium and when used the Vanadium is reabsorbed into the liquid.
Sorry guys I am not clever with technology so might have missed the point and could well have merely repeated that already posted.
I looked up Vanadium and it appears NOT to be a rare element but is already used in hardening steel.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 20, 2017, 10:27:59 AM
It is a Vanadium redox battery. From what Wiki says, it is okay if you have the space for it.
The thing about this kind of energy storage is you can charge it from overnight, low cost, off peak electricity. Then use it during the day when the prices go up.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanadium_redox_battery (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanadium_redox_battery)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 20, 2017, 01:13:13 PM
Bad news for Tesla on their bid to make cheaper EV for mass market ( model 3 ) on top of even more production delays  -  soon  their cars will be losing taxpayer funded subsidies (when they hit 200,000 milestone, if ever), because this is a fixed subsidy not a % of car value its reduction will have a big effect on a more price sensitive car like model 3 than on their $100K models.

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/tesla-model-3-production-delay-issue#gs.OV8NMqk

A reality check on how cheap renewable energy can get, when you start adding storage the costs rise and make it less competitive.  India and China are building nuclear power stations at a rapid pace to ensure they have power they need when they need it.  In Germany their production industry segment, which is the basis of their strong economy is fighting the phasing out of coal stations 'because they cannot rely on fickle renewables for their 24/7 needs' and don't want power shortages disrupting their production.

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/the-truth-about-renewables-and-storage-in-lazards-cost-analysis#gs.2O=5c_4
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TG on November 20, 2017, 01:28:27 PM
Bad news for Tesla....  soon  their cars will be losing taxpayer funded subsidies
Do you mean the federal development funding made available to all the US auto makers and also taken up by the likes of Ford, GM etc.?
--
TG
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 20, 2017, 02:08:21 PM
Do you mean the federal development funding made available to all the US auto makers and also taken up by the likes of Ford, GM etc.?
That's certainly what the link alludes to.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 20, 2017, 03:26:21 PM
Bad news for Tesla....  soon  their cars will be losing taxpayer funded subsidies
Do you mean the federal development funding made available to all the US auto makers and also taken up by the likes of Ford, GM etc.?
--
TG

Yes it applies to all EV makers, but only up to the point they sell 200,000 vehicles then it reduces. Will affect all makers, but most are more efficient at producing cars than Tesla,  and if it comes to a price war..................
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on November 21, 2017, 10:22:33 AM
I see the oil industry have their hands out hoping for tax changes in this week's budget, to help them out.

Notice the petrol & diesel prices creeping up in the week of so before the budget? Happens every year, without fail.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on November 21, 2017, 01:04:11 PM
I see the oil industry have their hands out hoping for tax changes in this week's budget, to help them out.

Notice the petrol & diesel prices creeping up in the week of so before the budget? Happens every year, without fail.

Err NO.

Crude oil prices spiked to $64 as Venezuela is reducing production and Saudi want prices to rise (thus reversing policy of pump and pump)..
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 21, 2017, 01:49:35 PM
Petrol prices regularly go up before the budget. It is just that this year part of that increase is justified.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on November 21, 2017, 06:16:35 PM

Err NO.


Is that 'NO. you haven't noticed that', or 'NO, it doesn't happen'?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: VicW on November 21, 2017, 06:48:07 PM
Interesting article from Autoexpress on EV charging. It looks like charging your car at some points could be as nearly as expensive as petrol or diesel. I assume most charging would be done at home if you can park off road.

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-tech/electric-cars/96638/electric-car-charging-in-the-uk-prices-networks-charger-types-and-top?_mout=1&utm_campaign=autoexpress_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 21, 2017, 09:53:02 PM
I think the majority of people with an EV will charge at home. Chargers you have to pay to use will, for most, be a distress purchase. Like buying coffee and a sandwich at the airport! The reason I do not have an EV is because I cannot have a home charger. Once we move to the house an EV will be top of my purchase list, though I doubt my wife will put such a high priority on one.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 22, 2017, 08:53:59 AM
HMRC are not going to take loss of fuel duty lying down, it is a large contributor to treasury coffers, my guess is that because government cannot put price of domestic electricity up without unfairly penalising every user they may either introduce smart meters with special tariff for charging (A chip in the vehicle charging socket may well communicate with a receiver in the charging plug to make a higher tariff for vehicle charging use)  or a charge per mile specifically for EV,  which will by law have to be fitted with GPS trackers or similar (and to hell with the privacy issues). Maybe to even things up they may have to remove fuel duty from petrol, diesel and LPG and go completely over to road pricing.

Apparently meters are now smart enough to know whether they are metering power from 'clean' wind and solar or 'dirty' coal, nuclear and gas,  knowing when an EV is plugged in will be a doddle. 

If you think that cost of running EV is gonna stay low because governments want to save the planet etc. we are having austerity cuts to everything at the moment, they will not give up a rich source of funds like road users.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/26/treasury-tax-electric-cars-vat-fuel-duty
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 22, 2017, 10:06:37 AM
There is no doubt about it, the government will still want their pound of flesh. I think it will have to be done with metering on the charging circuit. If they do it on miles driven, that will hit motorists with their own electricity supply (either PV or wind). It will also hit drivers with a light touch and not those that drive hard all the time. And regenerative braking won't be all that necessary, other than to extend range.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 22, 2017, 10:18:36 AM
I am not sure they will clobber electricity - too complicated to separate out what is used for domestic use given that 90% of EV charging will be done at home. The likely targets will be road pricing and/or vehicle excise duty.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 22, 2017, 10:20:43 AM
I think the majority of people with an EV will charge at home. Chargers you have to pay to use will, for most, be a distress purchase. Like buying coffee and a sandwich at the airport! The reason I do not have an EV is because I cannot have a home charger. Once we move to the house an EV will be top of my purchase list, though I doubt my wife will put such a high priority on one.

Just out of interest Jocko - have you thought about what you will get?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 22, 2017, 10:27:14 AM
There is no doubt about it, the government will still want their pound of flesh. I think it will have to be done with metering on the charging circuit. If they do it on miles driven, that will hit motorists with their own electricity supply (either PV or wind). It will also hit drivers with a light touch and not those that drive hard all the time. And regenerative braking won't be all that necessary, other than to extend range.

Those people with their own power supply will still be using road infrastructure so HMRC may increase VED on leccy vehicles,   fuel duty should help to keep the roads usable - not sure what VED pays for (apparently DVLA have lost about £400 million in revenue since tax disc was abolished,  and that includes the 'savings' they were gonna make by getting rid of discs LOL),  but council tax pays for roughly 25% of road repairs locally (in theory,  but does not seem to cover repairing potholes,   When income is cut the government and local councils always seem to cut the most obvious things ( like road repairs and cleaning road signs etc.) so that people will notice them more. 

https://news.sky.com/story/wrong-turn-car-tax-disc-abolition-costly-as-evasion-trebles-11128854

Governments are still capable of stupid use of taxpayers money even in times of austerity .......

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2101000/MPs-spend-400k-taxpayers-money-12-fig-trees-offices.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2342045/120billion-money-drain-EVERY-year-The-astonishing-Whitehall-waste-send-British-family-annual-luxury-holiday.html
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 22, 2017, 10:32:27 AM
Governments are still capable of stupid use of taxpayers money even in times of austerity .......
We will probably see a perfect example of that - somehow - after this afternoon's Budget!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: auntyneddy on November 22, 2017, 11:03:34 AM
On the subject of revenue and smart meters for EV charging, whilst slightly off subject in a way relevant. A few years back a neighbour who drove a coach asked if we would be interested in Christmas in Austria. Given the price we jumped at the chance and it was one of the best holidays we have ever had.
Somewhere in Austria, Henry the neighbour filled up with diesel. Off he went to pay. The time ticked on and no Henry and after some time a police car arrived. Eventually Henry came back to tell us that the previous driver had removed the 'black box'. This was the problem. As I understand it this box was mandatory in Austria and other countries maybe. It recorded information about the vehicle etc in order that the Austrian authorities could either charge duty on the vehicle or the fuel.
Now given the huge amount of duty that will be lost if the EV takes off, it would appear the technology is there and well tested.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 22, 2017, 02:10:47 PM
See the government is allocating £540m to support the growth of electric cars, including more charging points. They want to see Britain leading the world in EV and Autonomous technology, and rightly so.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 22, 2017, 04:12:40 PM
See the government is allocating £540m to support the growth of electric cars, including more charging points. They want to see Britain leading the world in EV and Autonomous technology, and rightly so.

Using taxpayer money to install charging points is like using  taxpayers money to build petrol stations, which would never happen.  Electrical power suppliers should fund charging points and then charge market rates to users i.e.. cost of electricity plus cost of installing ( to get payback in a reasonable time) and maintaining infrastructure.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 22, 2017, 05:42:51 PM
See the government is allocating £540m to support the growth of electric cars, including more charging points. They want to see Britain leading the world in EV and Autonomous technology, and rightly so.

Using taxpayer money to install charging points is like using  taxpayers money to build petrol stations, which would never happen.  Electrical power suppliers should fund charging points and then charge market rates to users i.e.. cost of electricity plus cost of installing ( to get payback in a reasonable time) and maintaining infrastructure.

I think the government would say, with some justification, that subsidising charging points all helps towards the removal of polluting petrol and especially diesel vehicles off our roads thus improving health and reducing the burden on the NHS. There is also the issue of climate change.......................
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 22, 2017, 06:16:52 PM
The reason the Chancellor gave was Clean Air. If they can invest heavily in Hinkley Point, to phase out coal, they can help the uptake of EVs.
As an aside, they have just released figures for the Top 10 CO2 producers in Scotland.
http://www.fifetoday.co.uk/news/environment/mossmorran-third-biggest-in-scotland-for-green-house-gases-1-4619216 (http://www.fifetoday.co.uk/news/environment/mossmorran-third-biggest-in-scotland-for-green-house-gases-1-4619216)

As expected, the petrochemical plants come out worst, but it is the Biomass power station at Number 9 that I was concerned about.
And talking about concern - there has not been much said aboutthe suspected Russian nuclear accident! The Institute for Radioprotection and Nuclear Safety (IRSN) said on 9 November it had detected ruthenium-106 in France. It added that the source of contamination could have been an accident at a nuclear facility in either Russia or Kazakhstan.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-42064192 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-42064192)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 22, 2017, 06:19:57 PM
There is also the issue of climate change.......................

The planets climate has been changing since it was formed, Humans can only live in a very narrow band of temperature, what really surprises me is how and why the climate has been so accommodating to us for so long (even though it is only a fleeting millisecond in the history of the Planet).

We cannot stop using oil even if world goes fully electric,  we can only do without oil if we are willing to go without roads, medicines, fertilizers, plastics etc. etc. etc. and all the other stuff we get from oil.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 22, 2017, 09:12:35 PM
On climate change, as a non scientist, I don't feel qualified to express a personal opinion. Let's just say I've looked at both sides of the argument and have opted for the man made climate change option.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 22, 2017, 09:23:51 PM
On climate change, as a non scientist, I don't feel qualified to express a personal opinion. Let's just say I've looked at both sides of the argument and have opted for the man made climate change option.

Science is well known for changing its collective mind on a regular basis, they are adamant on one point until someone comes up with another theory. A lot of money has been made out of carbon taxes, and even more money on the table for other things like EV.  Scientists mostly chase funding, and rarely if ever dare express a view that disagrees with the funding provider.  Soon someone will discover that the suns output affects temperature on earth (it is our only real source of heat), and that suns output fluctuates, also earth rotation axis wobbles every so often and causes changes in climate.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: MartinJG on November 22, 2017, 09:34:47 PM
Culzean

What about the Earth's core? Although it happened a few years ago, one might consider the core to be a sort of big storage heater. In fact,  I am sure I recall reading or hearing talk of tapping the heat by drilling down. Probably the same scientists who were looking for further funding. Or was that a Hollywood movie.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 22, 2017, 10:07:14 PM
You don't have to drill that far down. Deep mining such as some coal mines, gold mines and diamond mines are deep enough to get very hot. I was once taken down Seafield Colliery, under the Firth of Forth, and it was very warm down there. The main shafts went down to 600 metres and the deepest workings were 1000 metres. It closed in 1988 leaving 150 years of coal (they reckoned 60 million tons) untouched.
The deepest mine in the world, AngloGold Ashanti’s Mponeng gold mine, located south-west of Johannesburg in South Africa, is currently the deepest mine in the world. The operating depth at Mponeng mine ranged from between 2.4km to more than 3.9km below the surface. Ongoing expansions have resulted in deeper digging at Mponeng, pushing the record to beyond the four kilometre mark. Air-conditioning equipment is used to cool the mine from 55 °C (131 °F) down to a more tolerable 28 °C (82 °F). The rock face temperature reaches 60 °C (140 °F).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: MartinJG on November 22, 2017, 10:23:27 PM

Yes. I watched an interesting documentary featuring the Anglogold mine you mention. The way things are going we could end up living on something resembling a Swiss Cheese.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 22, 2017, 10:46:33 PM
On climate change, as a non scientist, I don't feel qualified to express a personal opinion. Let's just say I've looked at both sides of the argument and have opted for the man made climate change option.

Science is well known for changing its collective mind on a regular basis, they are adamant on one point until someone comes up with another theory. A lot of money has been made out of carbon taxes, and even more money on the table for other things like EV.  Scientists mostly chase funding, and rarely if ever dare express a view that disagrees with the funding provider.  Soon someone will discover that the suns output affects temperature on earth (it is our only real source of heat), and that suns output fluctuates, also earth rotation axis wobbles every so often and causes changes in climate.

I think this funding argument is a zero sum game. Most climate change sceptics are financed by the fossil fuel industries.

Stephen Hawking and Brian Cox are not in the climate change business but they are pretty sure man made climate change is a fact. I'll take either of them against Nigel Lawson any day on matters of science.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 23, 2017, 08:38:00 AM
Stephen Hawking and Brian Cox are not in the climate change business but they are pretty sure man made climate change is a fact. I'll take either of them against Nigel Lawson any day on matters of science.

Most of us have heard the tale of 'The Emperors New Clothes' where despite the fact the guy was as nekked as the day he was born everyone agreed his new clothes were very good indeed (because they had been told by the makers that stupid people would not be able to see the clothes) - this caries on until a child (who was not in on the plot and did not tell the Emperor what he thought he wanted to hear) blurted out 'but he hasn't go any clothes on' after which everyone had to agree with the child and the whole scam was rumbled. 

https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/the-emperors-new-clothes.html

Co2 theory suited governments,  who could see Dollar signs from all the (easily) levied 'Carbon Taxes' which could swell their coffers without really doing much except to instruct industry to 'reduce your carbon footprint' , as time went on the Global warming / climates change (changed the name when they realised that the last 10 years after 1998 had actually seen a drop in temperature, and they wanted to cover all the bases and convince people that it was not only global warming,  but it was gonna make the climate 'unstable' and basically it could warm up or cool down and they would still appear to be right).  Out of the MMGW / CC theory grew a worldwide movement dedicated to spreading the message (and if they could make a career and governments could make loads of easy money, where was the downside).

The same 'Emperors new clothes' works in all walks of life,  some call it peer pressure, groupthink etc.  but it all boils down to the fact that no-one wants to appear out of line or stupid.  This works extremely well in the 'modern art' world, (surely the biggest scam of all)   with many documents cases of getting kids to splash paint on a canvas,  signing it with a well known artists name and seeing the 'experts' fall over themselves to see the 'meaning' in the splashes of paint, and guess what these people don't even have the honesty to be embarrassed when the fraud is pointed out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink

Stephen Hawkings and Brian Cox may be clever people,  but at the end of the day humans can only work to the limit of present knowledge,  and even people like those can be influenced by peer pressure and groupthink.

The sun only has to sneeze and we catch a cold,  there has been a lot of worry lately about increasing sun activity, solar storms etc. which have the power to take out our precious computers (look out Autonomous vehicles) and electrical supplies (happened in Canada a few years ago).

Ice sheets have actually been increasing lately,  and they reckon any melting due to soot and black particulates (diesel) landing on ice surface and absorbing suns heat.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 23, 2017, 08:40:16 AM
Culzean

What about the Earth's core? Although it happened a few years ago, one might consider the core to be a sort of big storage heater. In fact,  I am sure I recall reading or hearing talk of tapping the heat by drilling down. Probably the same scientists who were looking for further funding. Or was that a Hollywood movie.

it is called geothermal energy,  but when an area is used it has a finite life before it cools due to heat being extracted (normally by water pumped down and back up).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on November 23, 2017, 12:55:09 PM
it is called geothermal energy,  but when an area is used it has a finite life before it cools due to heat being extracted (normally by water pumped down and back up).

Surely that depends where you are, and how deep you go. There must be a point where the extraction rate does not exceed the rate the heat is replenished.

Did you see the video where they were drilling for geothermal in Iceland and hit an underground lava pocket?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 23, 2017, 01:39:42 PM
In a billion years or so you will extract all the heat from the Earth's core.  ;D
http://www.bgs.ac.uk/research/energy/geothermal/ (http://www.bgs.ac.uk/research/energy/geothermal/)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 23, 2017, 02:47:01 PM
Stephen Hawking and Brian Cox are not in the climate change business but they are pretty sure man made climate change is a fact. I'll take either of them against Nigel Lawson any day on matters of science.

Most of us have heard the tale of 'The Emperors New Clothes' where despite the fact the guy was as nekked as the day he was born everyone agreed his new clothes were very good indeed (because they had been told by the makers that stupid people would not be able to see the clothes) - this caries on until a child (who was not in on the plot and did not tell the Emperor what he thought he wanted to hear) blurted out 'but he hasn't go any clothes on' after which everyone had to agree with the child and the whole scam was rumbled. 

https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/the-emperors-new-clothes.html

Co2 theory suited governments,  who could see Dollar signs from all the (easily) levied 'Carbon Taxes' which could swell their coffers without really doing much except to instruct industry to 'reduce your carbon footprint' , as time went on the Global warming / climates change (changed the name when they realised that the last 10 years after 1998 had actually seen a drop in temperature, and they wanted to cover all the bases and convince people that it was not only global warming,  but it was gonna make the climate 'unstable' and basically it could warm up or cool down and they would still appear to be right).  Out of the MMGW / CC theory grew a worldwide movement dedicated to spreading the message (and if they could make a career and governments could make loads of easy money, where was the downside).

The same 'Emperors new clothes' works in all walks of life,  some call it peer pressure, groupthink etc.  but it all boils down to the fact that no-one wants to appear out of line or stupid.  This works extremely well in the 'modern art' world, (surely the biggest scam of all)   with many documents cases of getting kids to splash paint on a canvas,  signing it with a well known artists name and seeing the 'experts' fall over themselves to see the 'meaning' in the splashes of paint, and guess what these people don't even have the honesty to be embarrassed when the fraud is pointed out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink

Stephen Hawkings and Brian Cox may be clever people,  but at the end of the day humans can only work to the limit of present knowledge,  and even people like those can be influenced by peer pressure and groupthink.

The sun only has to sneeze and we catch a cold,  there has been a lot of worry lately about increasing sun activity, solar storms etc. which have the power to take out our precious computers (look out Autonomous vehicles) and electrical supplies (happened in Canada a few years ago).

Ice sheets have actually been increasing lately,  and they reckon any melting due to soot and black particulates (diesel) landing on ice surface and absorbing suns heat.

Just to be clear - you are dismissing as conspiracy theory and rubbish the views of Brian Cox and Stephen Hawking?

The people funding climate change scepticism are very clever people. The American pollster Frank Lunz has advised the Republican Party in the USA and, more recently, the fossil fuel industry. He took his cue from the very successful lobbying of the tobacco industry who fought tooth and nail against government action once a link to cancer and other disease had been established. Lunz took the view that, in the face of convincing evidence, the best approach was to cast a bit of doubt. Get a rogue scientist to publish a paper, pick holes in the methodology and the doubt is established.

Lunz advised the fossil fuel industry himself although he now accepts the science behind climate change. Again the aim is to cast a little doubt. This will enable policy makers to soft pedal on restrictions (in fact not only do they soft pedal but the subsidies to the fossil fuel industries continue unabated).

You mention group think - all people of any persuasion could be said to suffer from group think especially climate change sceptics so I don't think that is particularly relevant here. We are at zero sum again.

But I would throw cognitive dissonance into the mix. Faced with unpalatable facts that might mean uncomfortable change people will try to find anything to enable them to continue to believe that their way of life is OK. We even have some companies like Exxon Mobile funding climate change scepticism when their own scientists told them that climate change was real!

There is little or no doubt amongst the scientific community that man made climate change through the emission of green house gases is a real threat. At some point we have to face up to the fact that the planet has finite resources and a finite capacity to absorb pollution.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 23, 2017, 02:57:40 PM
I would take climate change more seriously if delegates did not hold their conferences in far flung places, stay in posh airconditioned Hotels (more energy guzzling), eat exotic imported food and get there on fossil fuel guzzling jet planes.  I may even respect them if they linked climate change to human overpopulation, but you can't tax people for how many kids they have, no leader has the means or the balls to do that.  So we come back to taxing carbon emissions which is easy-peasey and very lucrative. Nice gravy train, people can make a good living out of being a climate change confirmer, why would you not make the most of it.

Someone from climate change lobby forgot to tell the ice caps they should be melting, they have increased year on year since the low of 2012. This has cast doubt on their entire business (and computer) model, people will be asking for their carbon taxes to be paid back.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamestaylor/2015/05/19/updated-nasa-data-polar-ice-not-receding-after-all/#1a3edac12892
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: auntyneddy on November 23, 2017, 03:23:00 PM
Interesting comment today when the Mayor of London was on about a new clean air act for the 21st Century. Gas that saviour was named as a pollutant.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 23, 2017, 04:18:03 PM
Interesting comment today when the Mayor of London was on about a new clean air act for the 21st Century. Gas that saviour was named as a pollutant.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wants to ban wood burning stoves,  I thought that they were touted not long ago the sustainable carbon neutral answer to a greenies prayers.   Do VW make wood burners,  have they fudged the carbon emissions ??
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 23, 2017, 04:49:53 PM
As I said elsewhere, ninth, out of the top ten CO2 emitters in Scotland, is the Biomass Power plant here in Fife. That's a wood burning stove, isn't it?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 23, 2017, 05:02:45 PM
As I said elsewhere, ninth, out of the top ten CO2 emitters in Scotland, is the Biomass Power plant here in Fife. That's a wood burning stove, isn't it?

Yes it sure is,  but touted as sustainable by greens because new growth of wood supposed to gobble up the carbon released when you burn the wood,  but when wood chips are sourced from Canada or elsewhere and transported on oil burning lorries to ports, then loaded onto oil powered ships and transported across thousands of miles of ocean to be loaded onto yet more lorries the theory begins to look a bit thin......... Oh well back to the drawing board.....  (probably takes as much energy to transport the stuff as you get back,  but it looks good to politicians who crow about such stuff but understand jack sh!te about most things).

Problem is us humans are energy hungry creatures,  its just our nature.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 23, 2017, 05:46:20 PM
The biomass burnt here in Fife comes from 90% recovered timber, diverted from landfill, and the virgin timber is chipped locally from logs supplied from a number of Forestry Commission Scotland sustainable managed forests.
http://www.rwe.com/web/cms/en/429434/rwe-generation-se/fuels/location-overview/uk/markinch-chp-biomass-plant/ (http://www.rwe.com/web/cms/en/429434/rwe-generation-se/fuels/location-overview/uk/markinch-chp-biomass-plant/)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on November 23, 2017, 07:01:55 PM
If politicians were serious about man made climate change, they would ban flying for holidays..
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: zzaj on November 23, 2017, 07:24:57 PM

Yes it sure is,  but touted as sustainable by greens because new growth of wood supposed to gobble up the carbon released when you burn the wood,  but when wood chips are sourced from Canada or elsewhere and transported on oil burning lorries to ports, then loaded onto oil powered ships and transported across thousands of miles of ocean to be loaded onto yet more lorries the theory begins to look a bit thin......... Oh well back to the drawing board.....  (probably takes as much energy to transport the stuff as you get back,  but it looks good to politicians who crow about such stuff but understand jack sh!te about most things).


Yes, it's a bit like washing food packaging (in hot water) before you put it in the recycling bin.......... Where's the benefit it that?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 24, 2017, 01:53:22 PM
I would take climate change more seriously if delegates did not hold their conferences in far flung places, stay in posh airconditioned Hotels (more energy guzzling), eat exotic imported food and get there on fossil fuel guzzling jet planes.  I may even respect them if they linked climate change to human overpopulation, but you can't tax people for how many kids they have, no leader has the means or the balls to do that.  So we come back to taxing carbon emissions which is easy-peasey and very lucrative. Nice gravy train, people can make a good living out of being a climate change confirmer, why would you not make the most of it.

Someone from climate change lobby forgot to tell the ice caps they should be melting, they have increased year on year since the low of 2012. This has cast doubt on their entire business (and computer) model, people will be asking for their carbon taxes to be paid back.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamestaylor/2015/05/19/updated-nasa-data-polar-ice-not-receding-after-all/#1a3edac12892

Actually the point you make about swanning round the world in planes is a fair one. It's why Professor Kevin Anderson of the Tyndall Centre hasn't flown since 2004. He accepts he can't advocate change if he isn't prepared to change himself. Anderson is an interesting character - an engineer who designed oil platforms until he saw the error of his ways!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TG on November 24, 2017, 06:37:30 PM
Someone from climate change lobby forgot to tell the ice caps they should be melting, they have increased year on year since the low of 2012. This has cast doubt on their entire business (and computer) model, people will be asking for their carbon taxes to be paid back.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamestaylor/2015/05/19/updated-nasa-data-polar-ice-not-receding-after-all/#1a3edac12892
Statistics are great when you compare one extreme point against a new single data point especially when quoting a random guy with these credentials*, perhaps a graph might help.  The grey area is the median average from 1981-2010, the 2012 extreme low is dotted, the last 5 years are highlighted.  You'll note that the two lines for 2016 & 2017 don't look that great compared to the extreme and the average; 2016 ends up below the extreme and 2017 is headed that way.  But hey maybe Trump will get his way, sorry the lobbyists way and eliminate their funding, then we can rely on the guy you quoted.
(http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/files/2017/11/asina_N_iqr_timeseries.png)
--
TG

Source:
The National Snow and Ice Data Center (http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/) at The University of Colorado Boulder with partial support from NASA.

* James Taylor, CONTRIBUTOR  I am president of the Spark of Freedom Foundation.
Opinions expressed by Forbes Contributors are their own
I have presented environmental analysis on....  Fox News Channel, and several national radio programs

Forbes Runs Misleading Article on Climate Change (https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:n6omqHnOk30J:https://theballastonline.com/2017/01/03/fake-news-endures-in-2017/+&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk)
The Spark of Freedom Foundation has a stated goal of pushing information and policy favoring nuclear, hydro, and natural gas power. They also have an implicit goal of debunking climate change. The same author has articles on Forbes with the tired argument that cold winters disprove climate change.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 24, 2017, 07:35:47 PM
http://www.climatedepot.com/2016/07/20/global-warming-expedition-stopped-in-its-tracks-by-arctic-sea-ice/

well this was an embarrassment for a team that went to arctic to show how little ice there was,.................
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 25, 2017, 12:37:12 PM
Back to cars lol!

I must have too much time on my hands because I have been mulling over changing my car for some time now. I think I have finally turned against Electric Cars until they get the range and charging infrastructure sorted. As a one car family we need something that is capable of doing all our motoring. One off holidays and I would have hired an ICE car with the savings I made on fuel and road tax but these aren't the problem.

It's these mid distance trips. For some time I'd been logging, on a fairly rough basis, my daily mileage. I went right through to September when I encountered a 140 mile round trip that didn't have a single EV charge station en route. Last week we visited some friends who have moved to just inside North Wales. 76 mile return trip and dodgy in a short range EV.

Conclusion? If it's your only car, now is probably not the time to go EV. If it's your second car - ideal. The situation will look different in the next 2 years or so.

I haven't had a brand new car for many many years. I know it's a waste of money but I can't get the image of a shiny red 67 plate Jazz EX out of my mind!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 25, 2017, 04:45:50 PM
Watched the latest edition of Fully Charged and he was talking about the Tesla announcements on their truck and roadster. What the EV experts are reading into the 200 kW battery for the roadster is that Tesla is about to make a jump forward in energy density. They reckon that there is no way you could install a 200 kW battery of current energy density in such a small car.
They also figure that Tesla is about to reduce battery prices dramatically. The 1 MW battery that is fitted to the truck would have to be produced for $100/kW to allow the planned price of $150,000 for the tractor unit. Current battery prices are $200 - $400 per kW.
Now, before culzean has apoplexy, I know that this could all be pie in the sky, and until we see the vehicles for sale with the spec and prices quoted, they could just be figments of Elon Musk's imagination. But those in the EV design and manufacture are excited by the Tesla announcement. So perhaps in two years, Pete, you will get a car with the range you (we all) need.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on November 25, 2017, 08:37:38 PM
I haven't watched any FC for a week or two, so thanks for the reminder Jocko.

Also, thanks for reminding me that I don't use the word 'apoplectic' nearly enough these days!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TG on November 25, 2017, 10:17:51 PM
http://www.climatedepot.com/2016/07/20/global-warming-expedition-stopped-in-its-tracks-by-arctic-sea-ice/
It would be better if you quoted genuine sources rather than clickbait from one man band lobbyists, this type of thing harms your credibility.
--
TG

ClimateDepot.com....  has received funding from ExxonMobil, Chevron. 
Marc Morano, Media Matters “Climate Misinformer of the Year”....  began his career with Rush Limbaugh.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 26, 2017, 10:18:12 AM
http://www.climatedepot.com/2016/07/20/global-warming-expedition-stopped-in-its-tracks-by-arctic-sea-ice/
It would be better if you quoted genuine sources rather than clickbait from one man band lobbyists, this type of thing harms your credibility.
--
TG

ClimateDepot.com....  has received funding from ExxonMobil, Chevron. 
Marc Morano, Media Matters “Climate Misinformer of the Year”....  began his career with Rush Limbaugh.

And other scientists receive money from the climate change lobby and governments who collect carbon taxes,  and only they will tell you the real truth... it's a bit like expecting the BBC to give you real truths when they are visibly controlled by the Liberal elite - they are funded by licence payer but their output (especially news and current affairs) has a distinct liberal tinge to it.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 26, 2017, 10:44:50 AM
This conspiracy theorising gets us nowhere. Where did the meeting take place to make up a phony science? Who was there? This, as I've said before, puts us in zero sum territory - you point the finger at governments wanting to invent new ways to tax us - I point the finger at Exxon Mobile and other companies who fund climate change scepticism.

Not all governments want to tax more - governments of the centre right generally prefer low tax low spending regimes so I don't see the Conservative Party attending meetings to make up carbon taxes and absolutely not the Republican Party in the USA.

Even Climate Change sceptic Matt Ridley (business interests in coal and fracking equipment) accepts that methane and CO2 are greenhouse gases - why? Because they are.

Scientists from other areas have examined the science and found it soundly based. There really is very little doubt about it.

But people continued to deny the science behind cigarettes causing cancer - some still do. It's uncomfortable to accept that change in behaviour is necessary.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 26, 2017, 11:11:26 AM
I have witness the weather changing during my 70 years of life on the planet, and from my observations the climate is definitely changing. The summers are getting wetter and the winters are getting warmer. As a youth we would get several falls of snow, here on the Fife coast, that lay for a week or two at a time. Now the one or two falls per winter are gone by lunch time.
Whether it is man made change or natural, I cannot voice an educated opinion, but it seems rather quick compared to other changes in climate over the past 1,000 years or so.
So, personally, I believe man is changing the Earth's climate, and not for the better.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 26, 2017, 11:28:15 AM
This conspiracy theorising gets us nowhere. Where did the meeting take place to make up a phony science? Who was there? This, as I've said before, puts us in zero sum territory - you point the finger at governments wanting to invent new ways to tax us - I point the finger at Exxon Mobile and other companies who fund climate change scepticism.

Not all governments want to tax more - governments of the centre right generally prefer low tax low spending regimes so I don't see the Conservative Party attending meetings to make up carbon taxes and absolutely not the Republican Party in the USA.

Even Climate Change sceptic Matt Ridley (business interests in coal and fracking equipment) accepts that methane and CO2 are greenhouse gases - why? Because they are.

Scientists from other areas have examined the science and found it soundly based. There really is very little doubt about it.

But people continued to deny the science behind cigarettes causing cancer - some still do. It's uncomfortable to accept that change in behaviour is necessary.


Climate or carbon tax is not like other taxes which are seen 'as greedy wasteful governments grabbing more money', they are seen as money given to caring governments to save the planet.

Governments  knew about Diesel and asbestos problems a long, long time ago but never instigated and changes until loads of people had died from asbestos related problems, similarly they stuck with Diesel until the bitter end where the VW cover up exposed in USA mad it impossible for them to maintain the 'clean diesel' myth any longer. Governments knew about smoking as well but the tax on tobacco managed to assuage any pangs of conscience they may have had about keeping it quiet.

Governments lied to us about Iraq, guess I was the only one in our office that spotted Tony B Liar was doing this for reasons other than saving us from Iraqi rockets loaded with nuclear warheads  (UN weapons inspectors tried to warn everyone that there were no WMD in Iraq,  but political expediency overruled common sense) , and the aftermath of that little adventure is the whole middle east / north africa totally de-stabilised and in anarchy and flames for foreseeable future).

Its easy to tell when a politician is lying,  their lips are moving.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 26, 2017, 01:06:16 PM
I agree with you about politicians but this, surely, is a matter of science.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on November 26, 2017, 01:56:09 PM
This conspiracy theorising gets us nowhere. Where did the meeting take place to make up a phony science? Who was there? This, as I've said before, puts us in zero sum territory - you point the finger at governments wanting to invent new ways to tax us - I point the finger at Exxon Mobile and other companies who fund climate change scepticism.

Not all governments want to tax more - governments of the centre right generally prefer low tax low spending regimes so I don't see the Conservative Party attending meetings to make up carbon taxes and absolutely not the Republican Party in the USA.

Even Climate Change sceptic Matt Ridley (business interests in coal and fracking equipment) accepts that methane and CO2 are greenhouse gases - why? Because they are.

Scientists from other areas have examined the science and found it soundly based. There really is very little doubt about it.

But people continued to deny the science behind cigarettes causing cancer - some still do. It's uncomfortable to accept that change in behaviour is necessary.


Climate or carbon tax is not like other taxes which are seen 'as greedy wasteful governments grabbing more money', they are seen as money given to caring governments to save the planet.

Governments  knew about Diesel and asbestos problems a long, long time ago but never instigated and changes until loads of people had died from asbestos related problems, similarly they stuck with Diesel until the bitter end where the VW cover up exposed in USA mad it impossible for them to maintain the 'clean diesel' myth any longer. Governments knew about smoking as well but the tax on tobacco managed to assuage any pangs of conscience they may have had about keeping it quiet.

Governments lied to us about Iraq, guess I was the only one in our office that spotted Tony B Liar was doing this for reasons other than saving us from Iraqi rockets loaded with nuclear warheads  (UN weapons inspectors tried to warn everyone that there were no WMD in Iraq,  but political expediency overruled common sense) , and the aftermath of that little adventure is the whole middle east / north africa totally de-stabilised and in anarchy and flames for foreseeable future).

Its easy to tell when a politician is lying,  their lips are moving.

+1

Where are the Brexit supporters who did any sums except those which showed we would save "£18B" a year by leaving. None of them told us there would be a charge to leave  - latest estimate £40B.

There are lots of people stupid enough to believe what politicians say : reality suggests a healthy dose of scepticism couple with a demand to show the evidence for any claim is far more sensible .

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on November 26, 2017, 03:05:27 PM
I have witness the weather changing during my 70 years of life on the planet, and from my observations the climate is definitely changing. The summers are getting wetter and the winters are getting warmer. As a youth we would get several falls of snow, here on the Fife coast, that lay for a week or two at a time. Now the one or two falls per winter are gone by lunch time.
Whether it is man made change or natural, I cannot voice an educated opinion, but it seems rather quick compared to other changes in climate over the past 1,000 years or so.
So, personally, I believe man is changing the Earth's climate, and not for the better.

But then when I was at school I can remember the tar on the roads melting in summer,  we used to have fun sitting on the kerb messing around with it. We also had one of the coldest winters on record (1962/3) and another in 1982/3 and 2010/11.   Summers seem to be cooler and winters warmer just lately but that is a short time to judge climate.
More co2 in atmosphere increases plant and algae growth, which absorbs co2.  One decent volcanic eruption puts more shit3 in the atmosphere than we can, and they have been happening since planet formed, and are actually getting less frequent.  From looking at fossils of insects and their huge sizes scientists reckon that when insects were alive earth atmosphere was over 30% oxygen, which would be a problem today because things would spontaneously combust.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on November 26, 2017, 09:04:50 PM
As with every other motoring forum I have ever visited, eventually any discussion of electric vehicles eventually ends up as a discussion on whether global warming is a manmade occurrence or natural, if it exists at all. But even if fossil fuel burning has nothing to do with harming the environment there is still a great argument for electric vehicles.
During the life of an EV they are no more polluting than conventional vehicles, either in manufacture and or use. If you can live with their currently limited range, and have somewhere to charge your vehicle they are a great option. Maintenance costs are considerably less than for a conventional vehicle. They offer a super smooth automatic transmission (actually no transmissions as such), and I for one think nothing beats an automatic transmission. They are quiet and cause much less pollution in our cities.
Some of you will say, “But I like changing gear”. Sure. We all enjoy the control it gives us, but I have recently had to make a couple of morning rush hour trips into Edinburgh and driving a manual car was a nightmare. A three hour trip was done at an average speed of 25 mph. And half of that three hours was open road with light traffic. Why anyone would chose to use a manual transmission for that sort of journey is beyond me.
Noise, or lack of it, is less of a bonus. Most traffic noise in a city (other than goods vehicles), is tyre noise. I dare say, if you miss your engine noise you could have something piped in via your audio system. A burbling V8 if you wish.
Autonomous vehicles are a different kettle of fish, another step again. There is no need for an autonomous vehicle to be electric. There are dozens of conventional trucks, testing autonomous equipment, currently running in the world. Airliners are all but autonomous at present. So too are much of the worlds merchant fleet. Super tankers have a watch keeping officer and a watch keeping engineer. The engine room is controlled by satellite communication from ashore.
The ideal autonomous vehicle would be a train (no steering, goes where the points are set and has to obey signals), or for a road going vehicle, a tram.
Personally I see electricity as just another power source for a road vehicle. Just as LPG and Biofuels are at present. If EVs become the predominant road vehicles it will be by natural selection (possible influenced by legislation), but it will be a choice.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on November 27, 2017, 03:04:36 PM
I love autos. The only problem with autos is that they go wrong, and when they do, it gets expensive. The semi-auto solenoid operated manual gearboxes are even worse.

Bring on the electric cars, I say. If it can drive itself and I can have a nap, so much the better.  8)

None of them told us there would be a charge to leave  - latest estimate £40B.

Latest I hear is that they have bashed out a deal, and it is going to be kept secret from the public. With a bit of luck, BoJo will get to know... we will all know shortly after.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 27, 2017, 03:11:07 PM
Excellent post Jocko.

Good points about auto transmissions. Because I do so little driving (3,000 ish per annum) and the car is only used 4 times a week tops using the slick manual on the Jazz is not an issue until............

Last week we visited friends in North Wales - on the way back to Warrington we hit rush hour. Stop start traffic for nearly an hour. I was getting mightily peed off with going into neutral, clutch down, back into gear, move short distance, back into neutral etc etc. In my commuting I did a lot of shift work so missed a lot of heavy traffic - if I did a commute at rush hour then I might even consider a CVT!

The electric car excels in this environment. It's not belching out carcinogens and the de facto automatic must make driving a boon. I've had several lifts in a Leaf now and it's a great car - as a second car I'd buy one tomorrow but I am the only driver in our household. Unfortunately there are 2 or 3 trips per year that an EV would struggle with especially with the crap charging network in the UK (Tesla are an honourable exception here).

But I'd still like one!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TG on November 27, 2017, 09:48:19 PM
'Royal Dutch Shell has announced it will work with some of the world’s biggest carmakers to offer high-speed charging points for electric vehicles in 10 European countries.  The points to be installed in partnership with Ionity involve high-powered chargers capable of topping-up an electric car in five to eight minutes — up to three times faster than is currently possible.  An average of six fast-charging points will be installed at each of the sites....  Each charging point will have a capacity of 350 kilowatts, compared with today’s industry standard of 50kW.

Shell last month agreed to buy NewMotion, Europe’s largest electric charging points operator with a network of 80,000 sites.'


https://www.ft.com/content/9e879ee6-d121-11e7-b781-794ce08b24dc
--
TG
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: auntyneddy on November 28, 2017, 09:47:55 AM
This am on Radio 4, discussion re space weather forecasting. Of course the question was is it important? I admit my thoughts a well.  It seems it is extremely important. Some years back Canada suffered problems caused by a magnetic pulse in the atmosphere. We experienced one some years back. As I understand it, the Sun is the culprit. Observers of the Sun watch for solar flares and if one is directly pointed at Earth we have a problem. So far it seems we are escaping BUT one of the problems are that these flares cause magnetic pulses and they have the capability to take out satellite navigation. OOPS being a Luddite I think I will stick to my conventional car and a printed map. OR will all the computer gizmos on the Honda be affected. Will driverless cars have a fail safe???
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on November 28, 2017, 05:32:26 PM
Just watched a YouTube video by a guy who calls his channel EV Opinion. He was musing about the fact that mainstream car makers were still developing new petrol engines and will, clearly, want a return on these. Nissan are no different in this respect than many other car makers. I drove a new Civic last month as a loaner - all new 1.0 litre engine.

I then saw an advert for a 4 year old Nissan Leaf - just under £7,000 - big mileage but still decent battery health. Ideal town car was my immediate thought.

In short I think there is still a fair bit of life left in the ICE. 23 years until we have to go all electric and that's a long time. I've also been mulling over the Mk3 Jazz and it sums it all up for me. Where EVs need to be is £15,000 (ish) for a supermini, 250 miles in the worst possible conditions and easily chargeable on longer trips. I think we are still some way from that.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 01, 2017, 07:08:46 AM
Tesla has its Mega battery up and running in South Australia, well within the 100 days Elon Musk said they would do it by (or it would be free of charge). It uses the same technology used for Tesla cars.
What is important is the fact it is charged from a wind farm, not by solar, which Australia is big on.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-42190358 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-42190358)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on December 01, 2017, 11:07:37 AM
Just on batteries and range I came across an item on google the other day. I'd post a link but can't find it at the moment. The guy has devised a test to reveal the maximum range of the cars in the worst conditions. This involves 90% motorway at 68 mph in low temperatures with the climate control set to 22 degrees (motorway driving being the worst conditions for an EV).

The Nissan Leaf 24 will do 57 miles in these conditions - the Nissan Leaf 30 will do 78 miles.

The guy is on the right lines. Anybody who has followed EV news on YouTube or various forums will see people clad in arctic gear, peering through gaps in a misted windscreen and driving at 50 mph on the motorway.

I want no part of that but, more generally, I find worst case scenarios far more helpful than any official figures on mpg for petrol cars or range for EVs.

Here are my findings for my Mk2 1.4 Ex looking back over records kept on fuelly.com

Urban driving in cold wet conditions and heavyish traffic(max distance 4 miles return) - 35 mpg.
Motorway driving in rainy conditions at 70 mph with some steep gradients - 47 mpg.

I can work with those figures and improve them. The NEDC figures are pure fantasy.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 01, 2017, 01:35:00 PM
Just on batteries and range I came across an item on google the other day. I'd post a link but can't find it at the moment. The guy has devised a test to reveal the maximum range of the cars in the worst conditions. This involves 90% motorway at 68 mph in low temperatures with the climate control set to 22 degrees (motorway driving being the worst conditions for an EV).

The Nissan Leaf 24 will do 57 miles in these conditions - the Nissan Leaf 30 will do 78 miles.

The guy is on the right lines. Anybody who has followed EV news on YouTube or various forums will see people clad in arctic gear, peering through gaps in a misted windscreen and driving at 50 mph on the motorway.

I want no part of that but, more generally, I find worst case scenarios far more helpful than any official figures on mpg for petrol cars or range for EVs.

Here are my findings for my Mk2 1.4 Ex looking back over records kept on fuelly.com

Urban driving in cold wet conditions and heavyish traffic(max distance 4 miles return) - 35 mpg.
Motorway driving in rainy conditions at 70 mph with some steep gradients - 47 mpg.

I can work with those figures and improve them. The NEDC figures are pure fantasy.

You are right, this is the kind of information that should be made more available, not the 'absolute best case scenario' of driving everywhere in bright, warm sunshine at 50mph with no hills.

Nissan claims 155 miles range from 30Kw battery,  so only 50% of that range achieved - that is a massive difference from claimed range.... 

Here is 'piston heads' discussion..  https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=247&t=1656779
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: auntyneddy on December 01, 2017, 03:30:20 PM
Because the RAC and AA were trying it on I finally bought my breakdown insurance off Gem. Yesterday, a magazine dropped through the letter box from GEM. In side is an article on three vehicles. A Renault Zoe, a Mitsubishi Outllander PHEV and a Toyota Prius. Comparisons were done. The writer states that the official NEDC figures give the Zoe with the ZE 40 battery a range of 250 miles on one charge. However Renault  qualify with 186 miles in Summer and 124 miles in Winter.It seems the batteries don't like cold weather. The writer had problems with accessing charging points. One was blocked by motorists who couldn't find anywhere else to park?????????????? One point of issue was the claim that electricity could be bought at 16p KWh. The other two of course are not EV's and the Mitsubishi only had a range of 22miles so on battery alone at £43,000 is a lot of money for a vehicle that still depends on the ICE. They thought it a great vehicle.
The last the Prius was a betweener but it doesn't have electric power alone and at nearly £30000 is a lot of money. Ironically the Zoe which is what started all this was well liked.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on December 01, 2017, 03:45:05 PM
In November I sold my HRV and replaced it with a Toyota Rav4 Hybrid. This has a 2.5 litre petrol engine. It goes hardly anywhere on pure electric, other than far enough off my estate at 0630 that I don't wake anyone up.

I have no illusions as to getting high MPG figures, but it does approach the efficiency of my Diesel HRV in some situations, particularly on my stop start commute into Leeds, involving some motorway driving too.

Bottom line - I am happy I don't drive a diesel anymore and my larger 4x4 replacement is not much more thirsty and runs on slightly cheaper fuel.

There is no EV on the planet that could meet my needs right now.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on December 01, 2017, 08:32:21 PM
I think hybrids have got a bit lost in all the discussion around EVs. For many people they make excellent sense, less tailpipe emissions in heavy traffic or at lights etc but the ability to do decent distances.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on December 01, 2017, 10:19:13 PM
Tesla has its Mega battery up and running in South Australia, well within the 100 days Elon Musk said they would do it by (or it would be free of charge). It uses the same technology used for Tesla cars.
What is important is the fact it is charged from a wind farm, not by solar, which Australia is big on.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-42190358 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-42190358)

They're building a 49MW battery a few miles up the road from me, part of a 200MW system over several sites.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: auntyneddy on December 02, 2017, 11:19:49 AM
I was really surprised at an item in the GEM magazine over hacking into car computer systems.
In 2015 hackers got to a Chrysler Jeep and in the 12 mths Chrysler spent fixing the problem the hackers uprated their attack and got through where Chrysler had not anticipated.  Tesla were hacked by 3 Chinese hackers over 12 miles from the car, Tesla claim to have fixed it. A security expert with IBM discovered he could still access and unlock his old car even after undertaking a full factory reset and wiping all of his personal information from the car's computer, by logging into his smartphone app re enabled all the data and there was nothing the manufacturer could do. The data was eventually erased. Nissan's head of development 'even if a team could engineer an autonomous car to deal with 99% of the sort problematic scenarios that currently flummox them the remaining 1% would be, by their definition, even more complicated and difficult to navigate. Some scenarios, he posits, are so complex that only a human brain will be able to navigate their way through.'
I hope the writer Carlton Boyce will forgive some of my paraphrasing but it is a long article.
So at the end of the day, cars will still need a driver and those that have raised the security problems of keyless entry, it seems are only seeing the beginning of problems with data in car computers whether powered by ICE or Electricity. It seems it doesn't even have to be an autonomous vehicle as car computer hacking is becoming a very big problem.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 02, 2017, 07:00:07 PM
Just watched "Guy Martin v The Robot Car" on Channel 4 catch up. Brilliant. But there again, I enjoy everything he does. He just comes across as a great guy. Worth a watch, if you are so inclined.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 03, 2017, 06:04:16 PM
Just watched "Guy Martin v The Robot Car" on Channel 4 catch up. Brilliant. But there again, I enjoy everything he does. He just comes across as a great guy. Worth a watch, if you are so inclined.

Unfortunately Guy will be remembered as the best rider never to win the TT - he admitted himself that he does not have the attention span for a race that length,  but he has also had some awful bad luck when he was in a position to win that robbed him of victory.  Nowadays he seem to be doing OK as a TV personality..... (which may be a longer career, and less dangerous).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 03, 2017, 06:13:11 PM
I was really surprised at an item in the GEM magazine over hacking into car computer systems.

 It seems it doesn't even have to be an autonomous vehicle as car computer hacking is becoming a very big problem.

Any equipment that runs on software and needs to use internet or phone network (or any wireless system) will never be secure -- it is a fact of life,  it is an arms race between programmers and hackers,  and the hackers always seem to be one step ahead - there is undoubtedly more money to be made from hacking than from programming, so hackers have more incentive to do a good job.

It will be fun to see autonomous vehicles being hacked and driving themselves down to the docks and parking themselves neatly in shipping containers ready to have their memory wiped and shipped abroad LOL - and bank robbers (doing it the old fashioned way LOL) won't even need a getaway driver any more.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on December 03, 2017, 07:49:09 PM
I was really surprised at an item in the GEM magazine over hacking into car computer systems.

 It seems it doesn't even have to be an autonomous vehicle as car computer hacking is becoming a very big problem.

 

It will be fun to see autonomous vehicles being hacked and driving themselves down to the docks and parking themselves neatly in shipping containers ready to have their memory wiped and shipped abroad LOL - and bank robbers (doing it the old fashioned way LOL) won't even need a getaway driver any more.

Now my wife is as technophobe as they come but, sometimes, it takes people from outside the bubble, as it were, to ask the pertinent questions. As she says if you can control your EV from your smart phone then someone else can! The hacking thing is important and answers are not forthcoming. I'm all for progress but questions do need asking.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on December 03, 2017, 08:38:14 PM
If we had autonomous cars, the North Koreans could immobilise a country without launching a rocket of firing a shot.  Given the patent and obvious inability of car makers to make secure cars, it's going to be easy for terrorists to do a lot of damage at little personal risk.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 03, 2017, 09:06:00 PM
If we had autonomous cars, the North Koreans could immobilise a country without launching a rocket of firing a shot.  Given the patent and obvious inability of car makers to make secure cars, it's going to be easy for terrorists to do a lot of damage at little personal risk.

Agreed,  with ever increasing reliance on software, WiFi, internet and cell phones we are sleepwalking into a situation where nothing will be secure.  Everything is accessible to people who do not have our best interests at heart, at the click of a mouse button.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: richardfrost on December 04, 2017, 08:30:35 AM
Everything is accessible to people who do not have our best interests at heart

And not just people, remember Skynet?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on December 04, 2017, 11:55:45 AM
Everything is accessible to people who do not have our best interests at heart

And not just people, remember Skynet?

Arnie is too old now to save us  ;D
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 04, 2017, 12:24:17 PM
http://www.carbuyer.co.uk/tips-and-advice/160649/electric-car-battery-life-explained

Interesting article on EV batteries.

One statement is particularly interesting 'it is a bad idea to keep battery fully charged because the change in battery chemistry damages the battery'.   Article indicates that 50 % charged seems to be the best condition (which may be why the software will only allow 50% of capacity of new battery to be used (never letting battery charge or discharge too much),  gradually allowing more capacity to be used as battery ages to maintain range) - but once more of the capacity is allowed to be accessed there is a downward spiral of capacity.

WTF !  It is like saying of an ICE vehicle 'don't keep your fuel tank more than 50% full as it will damage the tank and reduce capacity'.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on December 04, 2017, 12:39:43 PM
If capacity cannot be used, it is not capacity...

So are makers quoting ranges based on usable capacity or total capacity?  If the latter, they are going to screw consumer expectations with predictable consequences.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 04, 2017, 01:18:35 PM
If capacity cannot be used, it is not capacity...

So are makers quoting ranges based on usable capacity or total capacity?  If the latter, they are going to screw consumer expectations with predictable consequences.

They are quoting range based on usable capacity, on a warm summers day, never going over 50mph and no hills (NEDC figures).

Problem is BEV is carting around a heavier battery than it should to allow for drop in capacity caused by charge / discharge cycles,  once some extra capacity is made available as battery ages (to maintain range), the rate of degradation / loss of capacity increases more rapidly,  the more capacity is used the more the battery degrades in a vicious downward spiral.

Quentin Wilson was on daily politics show today warning politicians not to hype up autonomous cars too much, as in his opinion (he talks to motor industry a lot) level five is 'at least' 20 years away.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 04, 2017, 01:51:25 PM
level five is 'at least' 20 years away.
I watched his piece and I was amazed how "Pro" self driving cars he was! And as for 20 years time. I remember 20 years ago quite clearly. It was only yesterday!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 04, 2017, 02:25:02 PM
Watched the latest episode of Fully Charged and there was some interesting stuff discussed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z61wL27eDRw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z61wL27eDRw)
Norway has now reached a point with EV ownership where it is profitable for businesses to install charging points. So the charging network is expanding very quickly, without government subsidy. Currently, EVs are 46.7% of new car purchases. Diesel cars have fallen from 92% of new cars, to 21%.
They were also talking about the EV sharing scheme that runs in Paris. Autolib has dedicated pick up and drop of charging points. You can either use their App to find the nearest vehicle or pre-book. You can also pre-book a drop of point, so that there is not a car there already, when you arrive. The cars are always charged as you have to plug in to the charger to stop your hire, and if the car is not sufficiently charged it cannot be used and is shown as such on their system.
Another interesting point was the “What3Words” global addressing system. This has been developed to give a discrete three word address to every spot on the earth’s surface. Each 3m x 3m spot has been given a three word reference (words chosen at random from a 40,000 word list). There are 57 trillion of these addresses. Mercedes Benz is using the system, and it will be available on their cars from next year. So instead of putting a postcode into your Sat Nav (or autonomous vehicle) you will just give it a three word command. play.chop.glee finds me.

https://what3words.com/2017/09/mercedes-benz-introduces-worlds-first-car-3-word-address-voice-navigation-system/ (https://what3words.com/2017/09/mercedes-benz-introduces-worlds-first-car-3-word-address-voice-navigation-system/)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on December 04, 2017, 02:49:26 PM
If capacity cannot be used, it is not capacity...

So are makers quoting ranges based on usable capacity or total capacity?  If the latter, they are going to screw consumer expectations with predictable consequences.

In my reading round EVs I gather that Nissan Leaf's do not use all their capacity - there is a built in margin of error - so your 24 kwh Leaf might have 21 useable kwh (stand to be corrected on this but think I'm right).

On top of this Nissan recommend keeping the charge in the 20% to 80% range most of the time. Occasional full charges are not a problem as long as the car is used straight away.

Certainly the claimed 124 miles for the 24 kwh Leaf and the 155 miles for the 30kwh Leaf (based on NEDC figures) are, to all intents and purposes, fantasy not to say fiction. 80 and 110 much more like it and much less than this if you throw in cold wet weather, climate control and normal motorway speeds.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on December 04, 2017, 03:01:31 PM
So system designed so everyone has to learn another address for each location.. That's bound to succeed - in confusing people.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 04, 2017, 03:04:41 PM
It is much simpler than an OS reference, and covers the entire world (including oceans).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on December 04, 2017, 03:30:37 PM
Just seen the first PCP deal on a new 40kwh Leaf. £5,000 down and £295 per month with a £10,000 plus final payment. Whatever else it is it isn't cheap motoring.

Nissan have been very clever. They phased out the old car and left a gap of 6 months before you can buy a new one. There will be a lot of pent up demand.

It looks a nice car though.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 04, 2017, 08:03:05 PM

Norway has now reached a point with EV ownership where it is profitable for businesses to install charging points. So the charging network is expanding very quickly, without government subsidy. Currently, EVs are 46.7% of new car purchases. Diesel cars have fallen from 92% of new cars, to 21%.

By far the largest exports of Norway are oil and gas, everything else is minimal, they will really see a truly massive hole in their economy if people from other countries stop using these products and go EV.  But since when has that stopped a virtue signalling socialist democrat / centre left government from going ahead with a 'lets not just shoot ourselves in the one foot, when we can do both feet' scheme !!
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on December 04, 2017, 09:44:12 PM
Just on pricing, the new Leaf is not a cheap car. Nissan still make an awful lot of ICE cars - there's a new, or at least facelifted, Qashqai out for example. Honda are still bringing out new engines like the 1.0 turbo unit in the new Civic. With that investment in the ICE (always remembering that 2040 is the key date here) it would not be in their interest to effectively undercut their own products. I wonder if this is why we are not seeing cars that would directly compete, in terms of purchase price, with an ICE. Nobody is bringing out an EV for the price of a Fiesta for example despite the fact that batteries are said to be cheaper and the mechanicals of an EV are much simpler than that of an ICE.

No doubt that day will come but I do wonder if the big boys will want a gradual switch to EVs rather than a wholesale one.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on December 04, 2017, 09:48:39 PM

Norway has now reached a point with EV ownership where it is profitable for businesses to install charging points. So the charging network is expanding very quickly, without government subsidy. Currently, EVs are 46.7% of new car purchases. Diesel cars have fallen from 92% of new cars, to 21%.

By far the largest exports of Norway are oil and gas, everything else is minimal, they will really see a truly massive hole in their economy if people from other countries stop using these products and go EV.  But since when has that stopped a virtue signalling socialist democrat / centre left government from going ahead with a 'lets not just shoot ourselves in the one foot, when we can do both feet' scheme !!

In the September 2017 elections a coalition government came to power. The centre right not the centre left are in power at the moment. The lefties and the greens are in a minority.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_parliamentary_election,_2017
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 04, 2017, 09:54:17 PM
By far the largest exports of Norway are oil and gas, everything else is minimal, they will really see a truly massive hole in their economy if people from other countries stop using these products and go EV.  But since when has that stopped a virtue signalling socialist democrat / centre left government from going ahead with a 'lets not just shoot ourselves in the one foot, when we can do both feet' scheme !!
Which was pretty much what the Norwegian relating the fact said! Mind you, Norway has been putting their oil revenue into a fund, not spending it on aircraft carriers, nuclear armed subs and aid to India (among many deserving cases!!).
I think the first cheap, Fiesta type EV, will come from an independent. Tesla, Lucid and the like are into luxury cars, but eventually someone (most likely one of the Chinese companies), will start selling a cheap (by EV standards) small car.
I was surprised to see that Waymo (another possible manufacturer) has covered 3.5 Million miles in their autonomous test vehicles.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 04, 2017, 10:45:44 PM
Norway are one of the bad boys of NATO, countries like Poland, Greece and Estonia contribute more. Maybe Norway should spend money on aircraft carriers and nuclear subs instead of EV, what with Norway being so adjacent to Russia.  USA has said it will no longer protect countries who outsource their defence to NATO (USA) and don't contribute enough military spending, which covers most of EU countries.

Waymo need to cover a billion miles or multiple thereof, under all conditions without major accident to prove viability of Autonomous system.

Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on December 05, 2017, 10:26:52 AM
Just going back to the price of EVs. The Nissan car closest to the Leaf in size is the Pulsar. This is available for £15 k or £185 per month for the base model (offer from Bristol Street Motors). New EVs are nowhere near the same ball park and you have to be pretty dedicated to the green agenda to throw literally shed loads of cash away on something that will depreciate heavily as well.

The other thing is that Nissan and Co might find it hard to scale up production. I can see EVs being a niche purchase for some time - certainly as new - second hand they start to make some sense if you can live with the range.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 05, 2017, 12:46:29 PM
New EVs are nowhere near the same ball park and you have to be pretty dedicated to the green agenda to throw literally shed loads of cash away on something that will depreciate heavily as well.

Even worse when poorer taxpayer subsidise rich Tesla and EV buyers - surely that situation cannot continue.

This is interesting article,,

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/will-electric-vehicles-really-put-an-end-to-gas-cars-2017-11-27

Quote from linked article--

The biggest obstacle for electric vehicles’ wide adoption is their failure to address an actual problem from the driver’s point of view. Electric vehicles have less range, lower residual value, higher cost—and this includes fuel cost—slow charging time, and are adversely impacted by cold or hot weather, among other issues. In 1917, electric vehicles represented 38% of the U.S. car fleet; there is a reason why they are at 1% today. Internal-combustion cars offer a more-viable transportation option.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 06, 2017, 10:07:38 AM
I see that electric black cabs are finally appearing on London's streets. They are considerably more expensive to buy than a conventional black cab, but hopefully will recoup that extra cost.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42221375 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42221375)
Nissan plans to test self driving taxis on the streets of Japan starting in March. Also Japanese robotics maker ZMP is working with a Tokyo taxi operator to develop self-driving taxis for the 2020 Tokyo Olympics.
And Waymo, owned by Google parent company Alphabet, is planning to test autonomous cars with no human safety driver!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-42238112 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-42238112)

As an aside, I dreamt last night, I was crossing Antarctica in a Tesla Model S. I had a team of guys laying the charging cable as we went. They cut a groove in the ice and laid the cable, before back-filling the groove with water. Every time I stopped to make camp they would install a charging socket. The car was kept in a heated bubble each night, to protect the battery.
I wonder if Elon Musk would care to sponsor me to do the trip for real ?!?!?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: auntyneddy on December 06, 2017, 11:26:33 AM
Two questions:   It is stated that EV's are better than ICE powered vehicles as maintenance is less. Surely if you take the ICE out and replace it with the unit that powers an EV the vehicle still has the rest of the moving parts. So how will it last longer?  I am sure Culzean made the point about the modern ICE outlasting the body so why will an EV's body last longer.
The second question is. why is it in all of the arguments about how good, how reliable how much cheaper to run, EV's will be, why does no one ever mention the amount of electricity that is going to be required.
HM Government is involved in building a new Nuclear Power Station at some horrendous cost to the taxpayer and as I understand it Hinckley Point is merely going to make up the shortfall due to the decommissioning of our old power stations. Even with Hinckley Point were are still going to be electricity deficient and that's only for the current needs. Canada is completing a new Hydro system which is merely to cover today' s  requirements. It is all very well to quote China but unlike democracies the Communist Party just takes what it wants. I understand that at the moment all the unwanted ( poor people) are being dispossessed in Bejing so that 'better' housing can be built. Not for the poor because they are all having to return to the provinces. So they will build many EV's and just take what they need to build them and flood the democratic world. If my information is correct, Australia courted the Chinese and did many deals BUT now the Chinese are pulling back from the Australian supplies and whole Townships are suffering.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 06, 2017, 01:27:00 PM
It is all very well to quote China but unlike democracies the Communist Party just takes what it wants. I understand that at the moment all the unwanted ( poor people) are being dispossessed in Bejing so that 'better' housing can be built. Not for the poor because they are all having to return to the provinces. So they will build many EV's and just take what they need to build them and flood the democratic world. If my information is correct, Australia courted the Chinese and did many deals BUT now the Chinese are pulling back from the Australian supplies and whole Townships are suffering.


China is still basically a communist state that has taken on the best bits of capitalism but still keeps the powers of a communist dictatorship.  The west has created a monster by transferring technology to China to get an i-Phone built more cheaply etc. etc.  As auntyneddy says, if Beijing wants to knock down peoples houses where families have lived for generations and built apartments for yuppies,  then that is what they do - if they want to poison whole towns and villages,  well that s what they do as well, flood historic towns and farms to build a dam, easy peasy.  China will build up an EV industry by prohibiting normal cars after a certain date,  again they can do that and anyone who complains will probably quietly disappear - never to be seen again.

North Korea is playing USA and Japan against China at the moment,  but China needs to realise that being a member of UN also carries responsibility to act in the interests of all members, not just their own expansionist agenda.  Probably better for the west to take China to task now rather than let them destabilise the whole region,  a ban on Chinese goods would be a good start as I doubt the west sells much to China,  so China has much more to lose in any trade war - Trump is dead right about bringing companies and jobs back from China to USA and easier loans for American companies to help them do just that. 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 06, 2017, 01:40:33 PM
Oops. Sorry. I thought I had posted in the Electric car thread, not the World Politics thread.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on December 06, 2017, 03:28:02 PM
On providing the power needed for a huge fleet of EVs - well yes, it is certainly an issue. A couple of things spring to mind.

1) I think I'm right in thinking that one of the issues of the current grid is the peaks and troughs of demand. Add in renewables and you get peaks and troughs of at least some of the supply. EVs charging at night, as they mostly would, might flatten out that particular trough.

2) Related to the first, our grid is pretty inflexible - there is talk of a smart grid.

3) There is also some work being done on using EVs as a sort of back up system with them donating power to the grid at times and drawing it from the grid at others. A back of an envelope idea I heard was this - EV comes home late afternoon early evening - it's still got some charge - that goes into the grid and, at night, when people are in bed, it takes power back.

4) Tesla power walls and similar technologies might mean greater ability to store renewable energy.

All very complex - the road to complete EVdom is not exactly straightforward which is why the change will be evolutionary.

One thing that would be a complete disaster would be for the Chinese to build more coal power stations to power their fleet of EVs. If that happens we are absolutely no better off.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: zzaj on December 06, 2017, 03:45:17 PM
One thing that would be a complete disaster would be for the Chinese to build more coal power stations to power their fleet of EVs. If that happens we are absolutely no better off.

I am not too sure about nuclear either.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 06, 2017, 03:50:49 PM
There is no doubt about it, charging infrastructure is the biggest hurdle EVs face. If all cars were suddenly replaced with EVs, the supply of electricity would be an issue, but I feel that that won't happen as uptake will be slow and there will be legislation to prevent charging at times of peak usage. Even without legislation, current charger systems use off peak by default. Perhaps, in a time to come, there will be a much bigger difference between prices for peak and off peak electricity. This could reduce unnecessary waste of electricity at peak times (lights that are not required in daytime etc). Also, as low energy lighting and equipment becomes more common place, demand from these quarters won't be so high.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 06, 2017, 03:55:04 PM
I am not too sure about nuclear either.
The more I read about nuclear power the more it worries me. Not just the risk of a nuclear accident but decommissioning costs, always picked up by the tax payer, will bankrupt countries (if they are not already so far in hock as it is).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: TG on December 06, 2017, 04:09:12 PM
I am not too sure about nuclear either.
The more I read about nuclear power the more it worries me. Not just the risk of a nuclear accident but decommissioning costs, always picked up by the tax payer, will bankrupt countries (if they are not already so far in hock as it is).
It won't only be Hinckley, but Bradwell-B (https://bradwellb.co.uk/) looks like a nailed on certainty by the same French / Chinese group.
--
TG
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on December 06, 2017, 04:54:27 PM
Forgive me if I'm repeating myself here but, in the excitement about EVs, the role of hybrids has taken a bit of a back seat. I was looking at the Yaris Hybrid. It seems to be the ideal town car. Which reckoned that they even beat the official figures in the urban test getting over 100 mpg. They run for short bursts on electric only power, especially on moving off so make a major contribution to reducing pollution at pavement level.

On the motorway - not so good - you are carrying around a battery and an electric motor and Which only squeezed 45 mpg at motorway speeds.

But for me, mostly town with occasional longer trips, ideal.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: auntyneddy on December 07, 2017, 09:04:57 AM
Unfortunately world politics run our lives. We as the man in the street have no control over our destiny other than, in Britain's case change or keep the government of the day at an election. China has such a grip over the rest of the world in trade. EV's will need electricity and Britain has entered into an agreement with China and France to build a nuclear power station with another probable. So to power an EV politics has come into the equation, whether we like it or not.
It is also almost impossible to ascertain what country producte sold under old and well trusted brand names are made in, almost certainly China. My Brother sends me info from Canada, latest one is about Triumph motorcycles. The production of which is shared between Thailand and Britain. So by buying a Triumph motorcycles we would be involved in some form of political issue.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: auntyneddy on December 07, 2017, 09:12:43 AM
Just opened an Email re two gentlemen removing a newish car from outside the owners home. No key needed nor did they need to be anywhere near the owners key.
West Midlands police have recommended the use of a Thatcham type approved anti theft device such as a steering lock. Remember the 70's? I parked my police Metro in a public car park. When I came back went to a white Metro not paying attention and unlocked it. NOT my metro. Oh dear embarrassment. Locked it and tried not to look too obvious. Is this what is going to happen with these latest ideas of key less entry.
Not sure if this is an EV/Autonomous vehicle question or just a general one affecting MK3 models and others with key less entry
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 07, 2017, 09:47:50 AM
Just opened an Email re two gentlemen removing a newish car from outside the owners home. No key needed nor did they need to be anywhere near the owners key.
West Midlands police have recommended the use of a Thatcham type approved anti theft device such as a steering lock. Remember the 70's? I parked my police Metro in a public car park. When I came back went to a white Metro not paying attention and unlocked it. NOT my metro. Oh dear embarrassment. Locked it and tried not to look too obvious. Is this what is going to happen with these latest ideas of key less entry.
Not sure if this is an EV/Autonomous vehicle question or just a general one affecting MK3 models and others with key less entry

Modern cars can either be started and stolen with a key and chip (probably the most secure) via OBD port or if keyless remotely via a couple of electronic boxes.  This I am afraid is the future of vehicles whether ICE, EV or Autonomous.  We have been lured by 'convenience' by all sorts of slick adverts, 'control your home from your phone',  'summon your car via a phone app', - but anything that works on wireless, is connected to phone network or internet is never going to be secure - my first Honda had an infrared remote, much more secure than a wireless one (which can be intercepted and cloned), but not as 'convenient' because you had to point it a area above interior rear view mirror, not convenient enough for many people,  but pretty secure.

Autonomous cars will become magnets for Hackers, as peteo48 rightly says.  I can imagine the car stopping suddenly and the large info screen in the vehicle flashing up a message 'your operating system has been encrypted, to continue your journey you can pay via your debit or credit card the sum of £5,000 via your phone'.

What is convenient for the lawful owner normally turns out to be convenient for people who would also like to posses or make money from the vehicle as well.  The law of unintended consequences strikes again.... (normally a case of designers not thinking things through).
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on December 10, 2017, 05:46:51 PM
So, today , when it's cold and power demand is rising, renewable energy contributes a stonking 13% of total demand...
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: John Ratsey on December 10, 2017, 06:50:33 PM
So, today , when it's cold and power demand is rising, renewable energy contributes a stonking 13% of total demand...
That's not a bad total considering the conditions. A bit of snow on my solar panels meant they produced precisely zero watt-hours today. The snow slid off the top part of the panels but then piled up on the roof which isn't so slippery so the bottom part of the panels remained covered. However, commercial solar farms shouldn't suffer the same problem if the snow can slide onto the ground below.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 10, 2017, 07:17:49 PM
So, today , when it's cold and power demand is rising, renewable energy contributes a stonking 13% of total demand...
That's not a bad total considering the conditions. A bit of snow on my solar panels meant they produced precisely zero watt-hours today. The snow slid off the top part of the panels but then piled up on the roof which isn't so slippery so the bottom part of the panels remained covered. However, commercial solar farms shouldn't suffer the same problem if the snow can slide onto the ground below.

Miniscule amount of solar today,  it only has to be cloudy let alone snow on panels to severely reduce output.   Icing on wind turbine blades can also be a problem. 
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 11, 2017, 09:29:15 AM
So, today , when it's cold and power demand is rising, renewable energy contributes a stonking 13% of total demand...

I am very impressed today, wind just over 8% and solar not even got out of bed yet,  still snoozing while nation energy demand nudges into orange section.  Come on boys,  you need to pull your weight,  Gas, coal and nuclear running flat out and importing electricity from pretty much every neighbouring country...........  my meter will be happy it doesn't have to sort out green electrons from the dirty ones today.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on December 11, 2017, 02:24:39 PM
Invest in Green Energy - and double up by investing in non Green energy to cater for the 50% of the time Green does not work

Policy of muppets.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 11, 2017, 04:13:37 PM
What would you say to a 2, 4 or 5 seater EV, up to 300 km range (22kWh battery), from €14,900? And Swedish to boot. Due on the shelves next year.

https://www.uniti.earth/order/ (https://www.uniti.earth/order/)
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 11, 2017, 05:04:19 PM
Invest in Green Energy - and double up by investing in non Green energy to cater for the 50% of the time Green does not work

Policy of muppets.

It is well known in energy industry that for every renewable source it needs 100% backup from reliable source (coal, gas, nuclear)  so what exactly is the point ?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on December 11, 2017, 06:19:44 PM
It is well known in energy industry that for every renewable source it needs 100% backup from reliable source (coal, gas, nuclear)  so what exactly is the point ?

Not every renewable. I will never understand why there isn't more effort put into tidal turbines.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: madasafish on December 12, 2017, 10:18:04 AM
What would you say to a 2, 4 or 5 seater EV, up to 300 km range (22kWh battery), from €14,900? And Swedish to boot. Due on the shelves next year.

https://www.uniti.earth/order/ (https://www.uniti.earth/order/)




I quote from the ad "Up to 300km range (22kWh battery)"

1km to 25km on a cold day falls within that ad.

Meaningless claptrap.

I quote from the ad " From 14.900€ "

100,000 Euros falls within the ad.

More meaningless claptrap.

Next they will tell us "costs from 0.0001 Euro per Km to run"
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 12, 2017, 10:19:57 AM
It is well known in energy industry that for every renewable source it needs 100% backup from reliable source (coal, gas, nuclear)  so what exactly is the point ?

Not every renewable. I will never understand why there isn't more effort put into tidal turbines.

Trouble is tidal flow has 12.5 hour cycle and peaks move every day, so although tidal power is more predictable than wind and solar it will rarely match daily peaks in power requirements - so then again storage is required,  which puts the cost up - also tidal is expensive to build and maintenance is difficult and expensive - maybe answers the question why there is not more tidal being built - solar and wind are relatively cheap, and in my book the saying about 'you get what you pay for' applies LOL
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 12, 2017, 10:22:18 AM
What would you say to a 2, 4 or 5 seater EV, up to 300 km range (22kWh battery), from €14,900? And Swedish to boot. Due on the shelves next year.

https://www.uniti.earth/order/ (https://www.uniti.earth/order/)




I quote from the ad "Up to 300km range (22kWh battery)"

1km to 25km on a cold day falls within that ad.

Meaningless claptrap.

I quote from the ad " From 14.900€ "

100,000 Euros falls within the ad.

More meaningless claptrap.

Next they will tell us "costs from 0.0001 Euro per Km to run"

'Doing a Tesla' - they are hyping up to get advanced sales - looks like car designed by Ikea + Lego  (wonder if it comes in a kit you have to assemble yourself).  Wonder where you put your shopping?
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on December 12, 2017, 10:39:07 AM
Invest in Green Energy - and double up by investing in non Green energy to cater for the 50% of the time Green does not work

Policy of muppets.

It is well known in energy industry that for every renewable source it needs 100% backup from reliable source (coal, gas, nuclear)  so what exactly is the point ?

Because one day there will be no coal, gas or oil.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 12, 2017, 10:53:42 AM
Invest in Green Energy - and double up by investing in non Green energy to cater for the 50% of the time Green does not work

Policy of muppets.

It is well known in energy industry that for every renewable source it needs 100% backup from reliable source (coal, gas, nuclear)  so what exactly is the point ?

Because one day there will be no coal, gas or oil.

There is still loads of fossil fuel,  enough to last humans until overpopulation, disease (we blew antibiotics by giving them to battery farm animals - may not get another chance) and land degradation marks the end of our time on Earth,  about another 100 years   :-X

The Sahara desert used to be lush and green until humans moved in with their domesticated animals and overused / overgrazed the fragile land - that is the future of most of the land on Earth
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on December 12, 2017, 12:33:33 PM
Trouble is tidal flow has 12.5 hour cycle and peaks move every day, so although tidal power is more predictable than wind and solar it will rarely match daily peaks in power requirements

That would only be relevant if you had all your turbines in one spot - tides and tidal flows peak at different times around the UK, and these peaks are spread evenly throughout that 12.5 hour cycle. Additionally, bear in mind that maximum tidal flow occurs at twice the frequency of the tides, so maximum flow occurs effectively at half that period.

There  is an immense amount of energy in tidal flows, and a network of tidal turbines could provide continuous base load electricity with suitable infrastructure - that's exactly where wind and solar fall down.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 12, 2017, 12:53:56 PM
A network of tidal turbines could provide continuous base load electricity with suitable infrastructure.
That is what they are currently doing in Orkney.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 12, 2017, 12:55:36 PM
The Sahara desert used to be lush and green until humans moved in with their domesticated animals and overused / overgrazed the fragile land - that is the future of most of the land on Earth
At least we'll no hae far to go to the beach.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: sparky Paul on December 12, 2017, 01:47:10 PM
That is what they are currently doing in Orkney.

I've seen the test rigs up on Eday which feed into the "Surf'n'Turf" project to hydrogen power the internal ferries whilst in dock, it's a small but very impressive demonstration of the various technologies.

The latest floating turbine being tested is really impressive - this single device has been able to reliably produce 7% of Orkney's total electricity needs, and over 25% for short periods.

I still think that tidal power offers the best long term solution, with improved storage technology for peak usage. They are currently building 200MW of battery storage into the grid, 49MW is being built just up the road from me, but I think something more effective will be required in the long term.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: auntyneddy on December 12, 2017, 02:01:59 PM
I am certain I saw on the dreaded box an item re tidal power involving a tower with a collar that rose up and down with the tides. This would not be affected by high  or low tides as it is dependent on the rise and fall of the sea as opposed to tidal flow in harbour entrances. One can only suppose it hit problems with situations when high winds produced too much rise and fall.
As to fossil fuels I am certain many moons ago, it was stated that the UK is sitting on 400 yrs supply of coal. Clean emissions were promised but all seems forgotten as the 'pundits' have moved on to the next brilliant idea to solve the planets energy supplies. It is cheaper to pay countries like the US to rip it out of the ground without any thoughts of reinstatement.
What is terrifying was watching Blue Planet 2 on Beeb. Plastic that wonder product and is now public enemy number one, killing sea creatures at some alarming rate, because homo sapien hasn't got the nouse to make sure he cleans up after himself. Just chuck it down. Yes the world will collapse if we the ones with the brain don't wake up.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: peteo48 on December 12, 2017, 02:24:00 PM
I think whatever your view on fossil fuels versus renewables it makes sense to eek them (fossil fuels) out even if you do think they are the bees knees. Renewables can help with this.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: culzean on December 12, 2017, 03:09:13 PM
I am certain I saw on the dreaded box an item re tidal power involving a tower with a collar that rose up and down with the tides. This would not be affected by high  or low tides as it is dependent on the rise and fall of the sea as opposed to tidal flow in harbour entrances.

I think that is called wavepower rather than tidal power.   Tidal flows result from the moon and the rotation of the Earth (the pull of moons gravity cause a 'hump' of water to travel around the Earth),  wavepower (swell) is the result of wind causing 'ripples' on the surface of oceans.
Title: Re: Electric cars
Post by: Jocko on December 12, 2017, 03:59:42 PM
MeyGen, in the Pentland Firth, is the big one here in Scotland.

https://tidalenergytoday.com/tag/meygen/ (https://tidalenergytoday.com/tag/meygen/)

It is a joint effort between Tidal Power Scotland Limited and Scottish Enterprise.