Author Topic: Electric cars  (Read 695284 times)

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #915 on: June 30, 2018, 10:33:09 PM »
The Mk 2 Leaf problem is a known issue, which affects the second or third charge, on a long trip.  EV forums believe that the next iteration, with the 60kW battery, will have battery cooling, the lack of which seems to be the issue.
The range issue is the same with all EVs. It depends on the weather and how it is driven. Like manufacturer's mpg figures, they are all a figment of some marketing man's imagination.

ColinB

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #916 on: July 01, 2018, 07:21:55 AM »
The Mk 2 Leaf problem is a known issue, which affects the second or third charge, on a long trip.  EV forums believe that the next iteration, with the 60kW battery, will have battery cooling, the lack of which seems to be the issue.
The range issue is the same with all EVs. It depends on the weather and how it is driven. Like manufacturer's mpg figures, they are all a figment of some marketing man's imagination.
The point of the BBC story was not just that these faults exist, it was also that Nissan are misleading purchasers with their statements about range and ease of recharging. That is not going to advance the cause of EVs.

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #917 on: July 01, 2018, 08:57:34 AM »
it was also that Nissan are misleading purchasers with their statements about range and ease of recharging. That is not going to advance the cause of EVs.
Manufacturers have been lying to customer since the days of Henry Ford. The range figures for the Nissan, like all other cars, are on tests that customers seldom, if ever, can repeat. The 1.0 Ecoboost Fiesta is quoted at 65.7 mpg, but customers struggle to achieve 40 mpg. The Leaf 2 now advertises "RANGE (WLTP COMBINED CYCLE) 168 miles". The charging issue is another matter.
As an aside, Ford advertising call their car an "Echoboost" not "Eecoboost". Is Ford marketing finding that Eco is a dirty word in the world of petrolheads?

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #918 on: July 01, 2018, 03:04:24 PM »
The cracks are showing in the hype when faced with real life, same with autonomous vehicles. Factor in the 'lead balloon' depreciation of all except the luxury end of pure EV  to date and can you wonder why they are selling about as fast as DIY leg amputation kits. 

Government soon act to increase sales of EV by banning everything else from city congestion / emissions zones, and through company vehicle tax regimes.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #919 on: July 01, 2018, 04:41:33 PM »
Love them or hate them, they are the future, and most of us here (assuming we are not all old farts like myself) will be owning and driving one in the not too distant future. The big manufacturers are getting in on the act, the oil companies are investing, and governments are buying in too. Like Canute, be will have to yield before the wave.

ColinB

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #920 on: July 02, 2018, 07:43:18 AM »
Love them or hate them, they are the future, and most of us here (assuming we are not all old farts like myself) will be owning and driving one in the not too distant future. The big manufacturers are getting in on the act, the oil companies are investing, and governments are buying in too. Like Canute, be will have to yield before the wave.
I’d love to believe you, really, because electric does bring benefits (although not as many as some would have you believe). But you have to take a hefty dose of reality with the hype. Despite what the EV-angelists would have you believe, there are still far too many practical problems that have to be resolved before EVs break into the mainstream. Realistically, you can only have one if you have somewhere to charge it, and if your pattern of use suits the range shortcomings. That excludes a very large proportion of the motoring public even taking into account that “big oil” is getting into the business. There may be a miracle sometime in the next 20 years that resolves those issues and makes them practical, but at present there are only incremental improvements on the horizon not the quantum change to technology and infrastructure that’s needed. The promise is there but the reality isn’t.

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #921 on: July 02, 2018, 09:00:23 AM »
Love them or hate them, they are the future, and most of us here (assuming we are not all old farts like myself) will be owning and driving one in the not too distant future. The big manufacturers are getting in on the act, the oil companies are investing, and governments are buying in too. Like Canute, be will have to yield before the wave.

Electric cars have been around for ever, since around the 1850's - there were fleets of electric taxis running around both London and New York in around 1897.  For something that has been around for over 100 years funny they never caught on and became popular.  Big oil is getting in on charging stations just as a side bet (as any business would).  We will not seen the demise of oil for a long time yet, it will be governments with punative taxes that forces people into EV,  not because buyers want them, a virtual communist dictatorship like China can ban ICE cars outright to bolster their EV industry,  but western democracies have to tread more carefully and in the end it will be down to buyers choice and taxation regime.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #922 on: July 02, 2018, 09:46:17 AM »
Realistically, you can only have one if you have somewhere to charge it
That is what I will do, but talking to owners on Speak EV I was amazed how many have no charging at home and use public chargers as their sole method of charging.

Quote
Electric cars have been around for ever, since around the 1850's - there were fleets of electric taxis running around both London and New York in around 1897.  For something that has been around for over 100 years funny they never caught on and became popular.
Not really, considering the technology is only beginning to catch up with the idea. With a top speed of 10 mph and a range of 20-30 miles they were not an attractive option.

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in the end it will be down to buyers choice
Are you saying that when they end up cheaper to buy, 400 mile range, fuel at the equivalent of 0 - £2/gallon, full charge in 10 minutes, minor service at 25K and big service at 50K, punters are not going to flock to by them?

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #923 on: July 02, 2018, 10:08:48 AM »
Are you saying that when they end up cheaper to buy, 400 mile range, fuel at the equivalent of 0 - £2/gallon, full charge in 10 minutes, minor service at 25K and big service at 50K, punters are not going to flock to by them?

The cost of Nissan Leaf will have to rise to fit battery cooling which is obviously required because if they don't the charging problems will continue and also higher battery temps will degrade batteries,  when cooling is fitted weight will increase.  The rest is pure hype and speculation, which the EV industry 'spin doctors' have been putting around.  The main problem with EV is that if the technology continues to improve who is going to commit to buying a car that will be out of date in a year or less and be replaced by something with longer range, more gadgets, shorter charging etc. Until the industry standardises and can convince punters that any improvements can be backwardly compatible with their car the market for pure EV will be confined to EV-angelists. 

No sign of the quantum leap in battery technology that everyone has been talking about for at least the last 30 years+, and probably for the next few decades as well.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #924 on: July 02, 2018, 10:18:05 AM »
No sign of the quantum leap in battery technology that everyone has been talking about for at least the last 30 years+, and probably for the next few decades as well.
Solid state batteries batteries have been developed. "The technology also promises lower costs, although manufacturing the batteries at the scale required for the auto industry is not viable at present.". But the auto industry are investing heavily as this report says.
https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1116625_japanese-automakers-partner-on-solid-state-batteries-in-ev-race

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #925 on: July 03, 2018, 07:19:32 AM »
Tesla has finally managed to reach its target of 5,000 Model 3's built in a week, but shares slumped as the market questions whether they can maintain that figure.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/tesla-stock-soars-after-hitting-5000-model-3-production-target-and-shooting-for-6000-2018-07-02

Elsewhere in the news, analysts reckon that EU sales of diesel vehicles will fall to just 5% of new sales by 2030. Already, the fall in new diesel numbers are pushing up emissions.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44687784

peteo48

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #926 on: July 03, 2018, 07:39:53 AM »
Are you saying that when they end up cheaper to buy, 400 mile range, fuel at the equivalent of 0 - £2/gallon, full charge in 10 minutes, minor service at 25K and big service at 50K, punters are not going to flock to by them?

The cost of Nissan Leaf will have to rise to fit battery cooling which is obviously required because if they don't the charging problems will continue and also higher battery temps will degrade batteries,  when cooling is fitted weight will increase.  The rest is pure hype and speculation, which the EV industry 'spin doctors' have been putting around.  The main problem with EV is that if the technology continues to improve who is going to commit to buying a car that will be out of date in a year or less and be replaced by something with longer range, more gadgets, shorter charging etc. Until the industry standardises and can convince punters that any improvements can be backwardly compatible with their car the market for pure EV will be confined to EV-angelists. 

No sign of the quantum leap in battery technology that everyone has been talking about for at least the last 30 years+, and probably for the next few decades as well.

I think this is a good point. We all know that when we buy a piece of consumer electronics it is out of date before we get it out of its Amazon box but there is a world of difference between a £500 TV and a £23,000 car. The magic figure they need to reach is 200 miles range at 70 mph in the rain and cold with every single electric appliance on full blast.


We don't seem anywhere near that and the "rapidgate" issues around the new Leaf show how far we still have to travel. The capability I mention above needs to be available for a lot less than £20k as well.


I say this with some regret as I would love an EV.


John Ratsey

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #927 on: July 03, 2018, 08:08:26 AM »
I watch the EV technology progress in the context of how hybrid technology could benefit. I had a Mk. 2 Jazz hybrid but the low capacity of the relatively heavy battery didn't provide a lot of fuel economy improvement for extra-urban motoring (my main usage). Loss of spare wheel storage was also a negative. I'd like enough battery capacity for up to 20 miles of urban motoring plus an efficient hybrid system for longer journeys including the capability of charging from the mains so I can top-up the battery using solar power or off-peak electricity while not losing the spare wheel storage.
2022 HR-V Elegance, previously 2020 Jazz Crosstar

peteo48

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #928 on: July 03, 2018, 10:23:34 AM »
A PHEV would do me but I absolutely do not need or want a big car. All of them seem to big. I want a Jazz sized PHEV.

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #929 on: July 03, 2018, 10:32:42 AM »
Even better than a PHEV is the range extender BMW i3 REX. A bit pricey though.

https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-reviews/long-term-tests/bmw/bmw-i3-range-extender-2017-long-term-test-review/

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