Clubjazz - Honda Jazz & HR-V Forums
Honda Jazz Forums => Honda Jazz Mk4 2020 - => Topic started by: Nicksey on March 23, 2024, 03:30:10 PM
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I know there are a few of you here that have the first models out of the factory, and some with 30k plus on the clock. I was wondering if you still achieve 10 bars on the charged display?
I know the battery is guaranteed for 8 years, but was curious for how long it will achieve a full 10 bars
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Doesn't the handbook mention that the battery will periodically recalibrate itself? I expect it will apply the same 10 bar scale to whatever capacity is remaining. However, I think that the system is designed to avoid using the extremes of the potential charge range where most of the wear on the chemistry occurs. The overall size of the battery pack is large considering that the rated capacity is less than 1kWh which, I think, supports my assumption that the cells aren't worked anywhere near their limits. Add on to that the normal operating range being 3 bars to 7 bars (30 to 70%?) with occasionally going down to 2 bars or up to 10 bars then the wear should be minimal.
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I'm not one of the original pioneers, my car was delivered in october 2021. I've not yet noticed any deterioration in the battery , but there again I no longer pay as much attention to the battery bars as I once did . I just let the car get on with delivering its magic.
The Sanguine Voltermore thinks that although the battery might deteriorate to some extent in time a Hybrid will still be a useable car. Unlike a full EV. It might rely more on its ICE and so petrol consumption may increase .
One of the lesser known predictions of my ancestor Nostradamus Voltemore was that in 2035 owners of 15 year old Mk4's will be lamenting on the forum that its mpg is not as good as they were getting in the early 2020's but its still sought after by generation X people with 'automatic only' driving licences.
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I'm not noticing drop off in my June 2021 delivered MK 4 Crosstar. In fact, I think its getting slightly better on fuel since year 2. I see 10 bars a lot as I live in a hilly area.
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Regarding EV battery degradation it's generally thought that the batteries only degrade about 2% each year which is a lot less than originally estimated.
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Regarding EV battery degradation it's generally thought that the batteries only degrade about 2% each year which is a lot less than originally estimated.
Am I right in thinking that 2% a year means in a 10 year old Mk4 this would reveal itself as a 20% reduction in its fuel consumption advantage over an ICE Jazz ? Instead of being lets say 10mpg better it will now only be 8 mpg better because it needs to use its ICE more often .Or is it more complex than that?
TBH I'd still opt for the silence, torque and ease of the hybrid system even if there were no fuel consumption advantage.
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Am I right in thinking that 2% a year means in a 10 year old Mk4 this would reveal itself as a 20% reduction in its fuel consumption advantage over an ICE Jazz ? Instead of being lets say 10mpg better it will now only be 8 mpg better because it needs to use its ICE more often .Or is it more complex than that?
Pedants corner: the 2%/year degradation will be compound, not simple. That is, at the end of year one, the capacity will be 98%, and in the subsequent year it will reduce by 2% of 98, and so on. At the end of year 10 it'll be down to around 82%, so slightly better than your assumption.
Second - and probably more relevant - point is that most of these "2% degradation per year" comments refer to a 2% reduction in EV range. Exactly how that relates to fuel consumption in a hybrid probably depends on a raft of other factors, not least how well the car manages the battery throughout a particular driver's usage cycle. I'd hope that Honda have done fairly well with that so the end result should be nigh-on impossible to detect.
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Am I right in thinking that 2% a year means in a 10 year old Mk4 this would reveal itself as a 20% reduction in its fuel consumption advantage over an ICE Jazz ? Instead of being lets say 10mpg better it will now only be 8 mpg better because it needs to use its ICE more often .Or is it more complex than that?
Pedants corner: the 2%/year degradation will be compound, not simple. That is, at the end of year one, the capacity will be 98%, and in the subsequent year it will reduce by 2% of 98, and so on. At the end of year 10 it'll be down to around 82%, so slightly better than your assumption.
Second - and probably more relevant - point is that most of these "2% degradation per year" comments refer to a 2% reduction in EV range. Exactly how that relates to fuel consumption in a hybrid probably depends on a raft of other factors, not least how well the car manages the battery throughout a particular driver's usage cycle. I'd hope that Honda have done fairly well with that so the end result should be nigh-on impossible to detect.
With the Jazz the reduced capacity of the battery would only have an effect where the battery charge is nearly full, eg when going downhill for a long time. Normally the battery gets to say 50% and is then used for EV or hybrid driving in which case the reduced capacity of the battery would have no effect.
I would have thought that in ten years time the cost of petrol will be so high (and most current filling stations converted to electric) that most people will have bought an EV (the battery technology will have considerably improved the range available).
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I'm not noticing drop off in my June 2021 delivered MK 4 Crosstar. In fact, I think its getting slightly better on fuel since year 2.
Might as well be owed to your adapting to the hybrid system and optimizing your driving style over time.
(happened to me with all my cars)
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Can I ask why there is a presumption, in ten years time, the cost of petrol will be so high that people will buy an EV ?
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Some oil companies - OPEC - are currently restricting output to bolster oil prices - make hay while the sun shines.
But as 50% of the world will depend on ICE for transport - see Africa, US, etc - mainly for decades to come, oil will still be in demand.
Oil prices WILL rise.
But anyone who thinks that electricity prices in the UK will not rise is going to be sadly mistaken. Whilst windfarms may produce cheap energy , they need connecting to heh National Grid - who say the odd £58B will be needed. Then much will be on pylons: the UK Planning System is defined to be inefficient and slow progress so expect that to double. and take decades.And then backup power is needed.The UK's nuclear program is a shambles with no nucs on order for a decade, planning takes a decade before building starts and wind is unreliable.
As a result the UK is building more gas powered stations and more undersea links to obtain electricity from other sources.
It is a total shambles - I expect electricity prices to rise VERY sharply in the next decade.
And finally, the Government will have to recover lost Fuel Duty revenues from EVs somehow.
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I agree with much that you say, which basically expects all energy to rise, so transport costs of all types will be expected to rise. All these things have to be proportionate, for people to live and goods to move about. I therefore do not expect petrol/diesel to increase disproportionately in the future.. but then again what do we really know, the world is awash with oil, but also restricted by refining capacity. Saudi etc. will restrict supply to keep the price stable at a price they need, at present around 80 dollars. The other consideration is gas, which again is plentiful and a fraction of the cost of electric, together with an efficient distribution system that does not need massive capital funding.
I think much that we are planning in the West is wishful thinking with unrealistic goals, while India/ China will continue their own agendas.
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I based my prediction of much higher petrol prices in ten years on two factors:
1) Governments striving for net zero past 2030 are going to reduce tax (in the UK via VAT) on electricity and at the same time increase fuel duty to persuade people to stop using ICE cars
2) Petrol stations are already closing down and/or converting to electric so that range anxiety will be the problem for ICE drivers trying to find a petrol station, and with fewer of these open they will increase prices as there will be little competition
Since the cost per mile is already less for an EV (ours is cheaper than the Crosstar at current prices), the gap will only get wider in future.
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I think that your prediction misses one essential requirement…the £60 billion or more to upgrade the electric network and complete it in time. Who will pay ? and how the hell will you physically achieve it ?
We all have our own views , which is good, but there are too many variables out there at the moment to really know, plus I am sure technology will play its part.
Interesting that our friends across the pond now recognise Toyota probably got it right in predicting a bigger longer term future for Hybrids. It probably won’t alter the future your views predict, just the timing.
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I think that your prediction misses one essential requirement…the £60 billion or more to upgrade the electric network and complete it in time. Who will pay ? and how the hell will you physically achieve it ?
We all have our own views , which is good, but there are too many variables out there at the moment to really know, plus I am sure technology will play its part.
Interesting that our friends across the pond now recognise Toyota probably got it right in predicting a bigger longer term future for Hybrids. It probably won’t alter the future your views predict, just the timing.
£60 billion isn't so much over ten years, I think that's about the same as the first phase of HS2. There will be a cost associated by NOT doing it. They are already upgrading the network, granted it will take a long time but I'm sure it will happen by the mid 2030's. Who knows, by then the scientists may have cracked nuclear fusion for generating electricity.
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As long as tanks and other military fighting machines do not run on electricity, oil will have to be available. Given the current arms race, the need for it will only increase.
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Imagine the range anxiety in a Challenger EV :o. I think it's ICE range is around 280 miles but it needs to carry 350 gallons to achieve that.
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I may have mentioned this before but the uptake in EVs where I live (Warrington) has been nothing short of dramatic. I read somewhere that there were now a million plus EVs but, if we have 30 million cars I can't believe, from the evidence of my own eyes, that only one in 30 is an EV.
The car industry has moved on from the Internal Combustion Engine - you see very few if any adverts for anything that isn't either an EV or a hybrid.
That's not to say there aren't issues - there are including the provision of enough charge points for the roughly one third of households with zero access to off street parking but things will change in the next 7 years. Also good luck with buying a new ICE car after 2030 even if the date has now been pushed back until 2035. There won't be any or very few.
The ICE is dead and gradually people will accept this.
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As long as there is money to be made out of oil the Billionaires and their useful idiot chums (politicians etc) will control policies in the ways that brings them the most wealth. Disaster and shortages are just new opportunities . If you feed the gullible ignorant masses whichever version of propaganda they want to hear and promise them no outsiders will get their bread and circuses you can get away with anything.
The need to change and its costs may be obvious arguments, but common sense and necessary life style changes and sacrifices will be slow going until the Oligarchs and their cronies start pulling in the same direction. Also the small investors who dont really care how their fund managers obtain their profits.
I think dogs are often kinder than people. Until you try and take its bone away.
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Nuclear fusion is always 20 years from now and uncountable $Trillions in investment away.
When I graduated in 1969 with a degree in Physics, it was 20 years away.It makes the current fission energy systems look 100% safe and dirt cheap..
When we cannot design and build mini nuclear reactors in 10 years despite the technology being in use for over 50 years, fission energy is clearly a very very very long time and lots and lots and lots of money away.
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I served my apprenticeship with the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority and rose over the years to become a Senior Design Draftsman. I saw it all from the inside and can testify that it wasn't Safety, Practicality or Cost that destroyed the UK nuclear industry. It was, as usual, politics.
Rather than have British built power stations on our own soil generating energy, we decided to import nuclear generated power from Europe. We have never looked forward again since.
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I think that your prediction misses one essential requirement…the £60 billion or more to upgrade the electric network and complete it in time. Who will pay ? and how the hell will you physically achieve it ?
We all have our own views , which is good, but there are too many variables out there at the moment to really know, plus I am sure technology will play its part.
Interesting that our friends across the pond now recognise Toyota probably got it right in predicting a bigger longer term future for Hybrids. It probably won’t alter the future your views predict, just the timing.
£60 billion isn't so much over ten years, I think that's about the same as the first phase of HS2. There will be a cost associated by NOT doing it. They are already upgrading the network, granted it will take a long time but I'm sure it will happen by the mid 2030's. Who knows, by then the scientists may have cracked nuclear fusion for generating electricity.
This is a bit tangential to the topic of EV battery life. But still: all the current projections for the cost of Net Zero 2050 are unrealistic and vastly underestimate the scale of infrastructure change and associated costs required to electrify everything and get rid of fossil fuels for land based transport, and heating domestic and commercial buildings etc plus industrial energy consumption. [This does not include aviation]
On Youtube there is an excellent presentation from an engineer's perspective, by Prof. Michael Kelly of Cambridge University. He carried out a basic scoping exercise. His reasoned conclusions, supported by independent numbers, are that in order to achieve Net Zero 2050, the generating and distribution capacity of the Grid needs to be increased by a factor of 2.7 times where we are now. The cost is projected to be about £4 trillion for the UK. Equivalent to about one HS2 every year. The extra numbers of new trained engineers and the quantity of mineral resources needed are staggeringly high, and that is only for the UK. I just can't see how it can be done.