Clubjazz - Honda Jazz & HR-V Forums
Honda Jazz Forums => Honda Jazz Mk2 2008-2015 => Topic started by: desthemoaner on April 24, 2018, 11:11:18 PM
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I bought my 13 plate ES in January. Mighty pleased with it so far, and those magic seats are...well, magic.
However, despite the discs and pads being replaced (so it says on the bit of paper) last year by a Honda dealer under previous ownership, there's a scraping noise when the brakes are first applied. This noise diminishes but doesn't disappear completely after they get warm. A mobile mechanic of my acquaintance whom I've used many times and regard as trustworthy has had a look and tells me the brakes are fine, but the noise still bothers me. Probably not related to the above, but the back pads stick on the discs after the car has been parked overnight on the steep hill where we live, resulting in a "bang" as the car moves off. This is something I experienced last time we owned a car with rear discs and pads rather than drums, so maybe just a quirk of the set up.
Anyhow, I intend to start afresh and replace discs and pads front and rear over the next 12 months or so, and was just wondering if someone could give me a brief outline of the procedures, or point out where on this site I can find relevant guidance.
Many thanks.
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hi just done my pads and discs on 2010 ex auto, reason was car had only done 15000 miles and had been idle for a while rusty discs I bought pagid discs front and rear plus pads, first , before i go any further it is an easy job to do, the first problem is to take out the two cross heads screws that hold the discs in place if they have not been taken out before and put back with a little copa slip they can be a pig to remove, i used an impact screwdriver and a pin punch to remove them, remove the top and bottom calliper pins and the calliper will pull off letting you remove the pads, then remove the calliper bracket two bolts and the disc can be pulled off if it wont go there are two 8mm threaded holes to jack it off, assembly is easy just make sure you grease the calliper pins with the correct grease NOT COPASLIP make sure the brake pad brackets are clean and when assembling the disc back on make sure the mating faces are dead clean put in new screwsx2 6mm bought on e bay the piston just pushes back (use a g clamp) the rears i found just a little more tricky as i had to disconnect the handbrake cable (just un hook it) and remove the small bolts holding it in place x3 as there is not enough room to pull of the calliper, the piston screws back clockwise best to get the tool on e bay makes it easier or a piece of plate about two inches wide 3-4 mm thick to turn the piston, make sure you do not twist the boot seal good spray with w/d40 makes it all go easier again grease the pad brackets with correct ht grease and apply a little copaslip on the back of the pads when assembling and of course keep and reuse the shims for the pads, thats basically how to do it but look it up on you tube as well hope this gives you a basic idea and if you want to do it yourself!! also I sprayed the hub and edges of my discs with silver heat proof paint just stops the rust and makes it look good as well good luck!!
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Many thanks for that excellent post.
I've done discs and pads on Fords several times, but never owned a Honda till now; so my concern was that there might be a fundamental difference in the disc/ pad setup. Sounds like its fairly simple, so I'll buy the tools and screws as suggested and get started when time and money allows.
Although I usually buy Mintex, I've used Pagid before and they make a perfectly acceptable substitute, as well as being slightly cheaper.
Thanks again.
Edit: like your car, mine was very low mileage for its year so probably spent a lot of time standing around, and this might account for the scraping sounds. Additionally I've had to replace all the tyres with new Michelins, the originals having cracked in their sidewalls due to loss of suppleness through underuse.
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Have owned my 2004 CVT Sport since 16mths old - always had the 'bang' from the rear discs when setting off after the car has been parked particularly in rain or the car has been washed and not driven immediately. Also they creak when passengers get in/out and the handbrake is applied - wet or dry. Recently had new discs and pads all round and still the same. In addition the brakes sound 'rough/catchy' until full warm. On roundabouts when on right hand lock get a 'swishing' noise until brakes have been used hard a few times. Am told my brakes are all ok and that I need to use them more and harder to polish the disc and to warm the pads so they don't glaze and are keener - I tend to slow down by lifting off the accelerator rather than hard use of the brakes. Was suggested to me that the Jazz is over braked with discs all round. Must admit when used hard for a while the brakes are very smooth and keen.
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Was suggested to me that the Jazz is over braked with discs all round. Must admit when used hard for a while the brakes are very smooth and keen.
The only advantage of discs is better cooling (and cheaper for makers and a bit easier to work on), they do not have more stopping power than drums (in fact with discs you need a servo to assist stopping, with drums they have a self-servo effect where when the shoes touch the drum they 'dig in' and apply more force, drums are also better for handbrake. Large trucks still use drum brakes, which speaks volumes. Rear discs are fitted more for show than efficiency and rear drums on other cars and Hondas that I have had have been trouble free for over 100,000 miles and then replace the shoes good for another 100K, and never had to replace a drum. The rear discs on my wifes 2012 Si were replaced at 3 years due to very heavy corrosion (and I mean heavy, like a ship that has been on sea bed since WW2. there were no shiny bits a all, just different shades of brown) - they look as thought they need replacing again but rather spending £120 on discs and £40 on pads from Honda again I have just bought Eicher discs and pads from Eurocarparts for £70 all in (no use fitting 'good quality OEM parts if they rust up so quickly).
Have a look at attached PDF photo showing 3 years of rust on OEM discs.
You do need to brake hard every so often to stop brake pads and discs glazing from only light applications. It is also quite common for pads to stick to discs when left in the wet with handbrake on (which never happened with drums), If our driveway was flat I would leave car in gear with handbrake off.
The dragging sound you can hear is because unlike drums (which have springs to pull shoes away from drum) discs have no such thing and consequently pads are always rubbing on discs, which creates drag and heat.
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Was suggested to me that the Jazz is over braked with discs all round. Must admit when used hard for a while the brakes are very smooth and keen.
The only advantage of discs is better cooling (and cheaper for makers and a bit easier to work on), they do not have more stopping power than drums (in fact with discs you need a servo to assist stopping, with drums they have a self-servo effect where when the shoes touch the drum they 'dig in' and apply more force, drums are also better for handbrake. Large trucks still use drum brakes, which speaks volumes. Rear discs are fitted more for show than efficiency and rear drums on other cars and Hondas that I have had have been trouble free for over 100,000 miles and then replace the shoes good for another 100K, and never had to replace a drum. The rear discs on my wifes 2012 Si were replaced at 3 years due to very heavy corrosion (and I mean heavy, like a ship that has been on sea bed since WW2. there were no shiny bits a all, just different shades of brown) - they look as thought they need replacing again but rather spending £120 on discs and £40 on pads from Honda again I have just bought Eicher discs and pads from Eurocarparts for £70 all in (no use fitting 'good quality OEM parts if they rust up so quickly).
Have a look at attached PDF photo showing 3 years of rust on OEM discs.
You do need to brake hard every so often to stop brake pads and discs glazing from only light applications. It is also quite common for pads to stick to discs when left in the wet with handbrake on (which never happened with drums), If our driveway was flat I would leave car in gear with handbrake off.
The dragging sound you can hear is because unlike drums (which have springs to pull shoes away from drum) discs have no such thing and consequently pads are always rubbing on discs, which creates drag and heat.
I think you will find that disc brakes are better than drums for stopping not the same!
I drive a lorry and it has disc brakes all round and stops on the button.
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Disc brakes are far superior to drum brakes, hence they were introduced for motor racing in the 1950s. They do not fade anything like drum brakes do.
Regarding servo assist, servos are fitted to allow the use of harder pads which are longer wearing and more fade resistant. You can have a disc system with softer pad material and no servo, but virtually all manufacturers of modern cars opt for hard pads and servos.
Rear drum brakes are actually fitted to some cars to "keep costs down and reduce weight". I grant that drum systems make for a far superior handbrake. My SAAB had all round discs but also drum handbrake - on the front - which was a great system.
(http://www.genuinesaab.com/catalog/images/B25531.jpg)
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Disc brakes are far superior to drum brakes,
Agreed, I remember the days of drum brakes all round and when going down a steep hill you had to keep pumping the brakes to stop fading, also they could be lethal if the shoes got wet going through deep puddles or a ford.
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Some more sensible car makers still use rear drums, they do less than 20% of braking and are much better as a handbrake and a lot less maintenance (new shoes every 100,000 miles and new drums never needed) . The drums shield the rear brakes from dirt and salty water, rear discs and calipers cop everything the front tyres throw up and then some, and frequently suffer problems and rust away far too quickly.
Pretty soon my wife's jazz will be on third set of discs and pads in six years and 60k, which IMHO is ludicrous, they haven't worn out, just rusted away.
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Some car makers still use rear drums as they are cheaper,
Pretty soon my wife's jazz will be on third set of discs and pads in six years and 60k, which IMHO is ludicrous, they haven't worn out, just rusted away.
Fixed that for you, I don't know what your OH is doing to the discs but my old Civic which is now sixteen years old with 90K is still only on its second set of discs all round and they are in good condition, maybe because we don't use cheap gear.
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I have only ever had to replace one set of discs in all my years motoring. That was on my Cavalier. At 137K the front ones were getting a bit thin. I have never ever experienced disc rusting. Mind you, this is my first Honda! My discs are currently shiny bright, with 103K on the clock. I have only done 16K with the car, but there was no mention of new discs being fitted among the comprehensive bills and receipts I got with the car.
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Some car makers still use rear drums as they are cheaper,
Pretty soon my wife's jazz will be on third set of discs and pads in six years and 60k, which IMHO is ludicrous, they haven't worn out, just rusted away.
Fixed that for you, I don't what your OH is doing to the discs but my old Civic which is now sixteen years old with 90K is still only its second set of discs all round and they are in good condition, maybe because we don't use cheap gear.
The discs on my Civic are fine as well - 75K and still on original discs and all bright and shiny, seems to be a Jazz Si thing, maybe the body kit directs all the water onto the rear discs. I don't think she is doing anything wrong (I probably drive the Jazz as much as she does these days) but when the OEM parts rust away after a couple of years something is amiss (maybe they used some dodgy steel to try to make the disc handbrake grip better). As I said I am fitting Eicher discs and Brembo pads, I already have them on hand ready to fit in case rust it is picked up at next MOT in July.
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I had a 1946 Rover 16 with rod operated drum brakes. They were very efficient and stopped the car evenly. But on some Highland roads - (Fettercairn) there are mile long descents with very steep parts and some very sharp bends. I remember going down with the front brakes red hot (literally), the smell of hot asbestos, smoke pouring from the drums,the handbrake fully on, the car in second gear with the Freewheel locked and wondering whether we would stop in time. We did.
Never had that with disks.
My rear disks have done 30k miles in six years. Nice and bright and shiny. We have lots of steep hills here, the brake pivot points are properly serviced and I don't park the car having washed it - I drive it 20-30 meters with brakes hard on in reverse to clean the rear disks of water..
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I was brought up on drum brakes. I can remember when cars had an oval sticker on the rear (red and black diagonal stripes if I remember correctly) which said "Servo Assisted Discs", just to stop us "drummers" from running up their ar5e.
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I had a 1946 Rover 16 with rod operated drum brakes. They were very efficient and stopped the car evenly. But on some Highland roads - (Fettercairn) there are mile long descents with very steep parts and some very sharp bends. I remember going down with the front brakes red hot (literally), the smell of hot asbestos, smoke pouring from the drums,the handbrake fully on, the car in second gear with the Freewheel locked and wondering whether we would stop in time. We did.
Never had that with disks.
My rear disks have done 30k miles in six years. Nice and bright and shiny. We have lots of steep hills here, the brake pivot points are properly serviced and I don't park the car having washed it - I drive it 20-30 meters with brakes hard on in reverse to clean the rear disks of water..
As I said discs are cooled better than drums, but if you ever had a servo fail on discs or just let the servo chamber empty of its stored vacuum by pumping the brakes without engine running you will quickly realise that you can press the brake pedal until your face goes blue and your eyes pop out and those brakes are firmly in chocolate teapot territory - I was not advocating discs on front (front brakes supply over 80% of braking effort) but rear discs are just not required on family cars as the main purpose of rear brakes is for a handbrake, and for the rears drums are longer lasting and much lower maintenance, in fact the average car owner would need to reach 100K before even worrying about rear brakes - rear discs and calipers seem to deteriorate whether they are used or not, in fact the less they are used the more they seem to suffer. Something about my wifes Jazz Si seems to be directing all the sh!t in the world onto back brakes, and for the worst 6 months of the year they are inside steel wheels which should protect them better than alloys, I don't know what they would be like if alloys were on all year round. probably become a yearly change item.
http://autoweek.com/article/technology/electric-brakes-are-coming-to-your-car
Brakes are just about to get a whole lot more complicated - if the electric handbrakes on some cars friends have owned are anything to go by they will need to go into workshop 3 or 4 times a year for service.
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I recall fitting a brake servo on my 1960 Beetle - great improvement especially when I replace the 1198 cc motor with a 1500 out of a scrapped van.
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Thanks for the further posts.
The discs may well be fine, but I'm mindful of the low mileage of the car (13k in 5 years) and the likelihood that its been standing for long periods under previous ownership. So the rust may not be confined to the exterior disc faces and therefore isn't being removed when the brakes are used.
Therefore I will replace the fronts this year, but maybe leave the rears still next, given that I do have paperwork that at least suggests those rears were replaced a year ago.
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So the rust may not be confined to the exterior disc faces and therefore isn't being removed when the brakes are used.
This can happen on ventilated discs, but solid discs only rust on the surface, so the rears should be okay.
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Returned to this old thread because I've actually made enquiries about the cost of the parts in preparation for doing the job. I usually opt for Mintex or Pagid, but some temporary cashflow problems have obliged me to look for a cheaper alternative.
My local parts supplier does ADL pads and National discs, and when I said that I'd never heard of either brand, they assured me that they've had no negative feedback. I wondered whether any forum users have ever fitted them, and how they'd rate the quality?
A full set of National front discs and ADL pads is £76.30 inc VAT.
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Returned to this old thread because I've actually made enquiries about the cost of the parts in preparation for doing the job. I usually opt for Mintex or Pagid, but some temporary cashflow problems have obliged me to look for a cheaper alternative.
My local parts supplier does ADL pads and National discs, and when I said that I'd never heard of either brand, they assured me that they've had no negative feedback. I wondered whether any forum users have ever fitted them, and how they'd rate the quality?
A full set of National front discs and ADL pads is £76.30 inc VAT.
I used to have a motor factor company and we used to sell both brands, never having a problem with either of them. ADL Blueprint are part of the Bilstein group,(of shock absorber fame), and specialise in parts for Japanese and Korean vehicles.
National Auto Parts are a British company based in Derbyshire and specialise in Brake and Clutch parts.
http://www.national-auto.co.uk/brake_products/brake_product_range.aspx
https://www.blue-print.de/home/
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Hi,
Just to add my experience I’ve been very happy with ADL Blueprint discs and pads. Have used them three times.
I was first introduced to them by an independent garage who serviced our old GD Jazz. At 86000 miles when the front pads and discs were replaced and we sold the car at 111,000 miles. No issues at all.
Have replaced the rear discs and pads on our 2010 Jazz at 38000 (early I know for rears but they we’re very rusty - don’t know what previous owner did or lived).
Just replaced front pads and discs at 58000 and still very happy with them.
You can often pick them up cheaply off EBay.
In practice I doubt you’ll tell the difference from the genuine ones.
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Just a word of warning with regards to 'ADL' whilst they claim to have the most accurate database I have had two occasions where the parts ordered and double checked turned out to be the wrong ones...........
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Thanks for that further information about ADL and National.
I've actually bought both Mintex discs and pads, because I've used them many times before and except on one occasion when a set of new Mintex pads insisted on squealing horribly until I was forced to change them again, have always been happy with the product. Additionally I was able to get them for a very good price on an online auction site rather than using motor factors.
One further question, and its about the brake securing screws. Is it absolutely necessary to replace them when changing the discs? Usually the wheel holds the discs in place and securing screws are unnecessary.
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The only time I have changed disc holding screws are if the heads are damaged due to previous botched attempts to remove.
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Thanks for that further information about ADL and National.
I've actually bought both Mintex discs and pads, because I've used them many times before and except on one occasion when a set of new Mintex pads insisted on squealing horribly until I was forced to change them again, have always been happy with the product. Additionally I was able to get them for a very good price on an online auction site rather than using motor factors.
One further question, and its about the brake securing screws. Is it absolutely necessary to replace them when changing the discs? Usually the wheel holds the discs in place and securing screws are unnecessary.
If screw heads were too damaged and I did not have new ones I would happily assemble discs without them. The only reason I can see that they are there is to temporarily hold the disc in place while caliper is removed, after that they have 4 x 12mm UNF studs holding the wheel and disc in place. I normally put copper grease on the thread and countersink of the screws, but even so some of the thread pokes through the mounting flange and is liable to corrode, making screws hard to remove next time, even with an impact driver.
One tip I found with an impact driver is to put the bit into the head of screw and twist the body of driver the way the screw needs to go (anti-clockwise to undo - clockwise to tighten - but I never use the driver to tighten disc screws, just put them in hand tight) the driver will automatically click round to the correct position (normally marked L and R on the driver, which can be hard to figure), now keep the driver under tension and whack the end with a decent size hammer.
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Many thanks again.
If I can get the original screws off without seriously damaging the heads, I'll reuse them. If not I'll rely on the rest of the assembly to hold the new discs in place.
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Many thanks again.
If I can get the original screws off without seriously damaging the heads, I'll reuse them. If not I'll rely on the rest of the assembly to hold the new discs in place.
I doubt you will get screws out without an impact driver, the large contact area of the countersunk screw head combined with corrosion of thread makes it hard to turn the screw. I have just fitted new front discs and pads to both our cars and even with impact driver I had to resort to trying to tighten the screws before reversing the driver to slacken them.
Without the impact driver you will definitely wreck the head of the screw and then you have no option but to carefully drill the screw.
Halfords do a good quality impact driver and bit set for £18, I have had one for about 15 years and it still works fine even though I regularly hit it with a four pound lump hammer.
http://www.halfords.com/workshop-tools/tools/hand-tools/halfords-advanced--impact-driver-bits?cm_mmc=Google+PLA-_-Tools-_-Hand+Tools-_-178172&istCompanyId=b8708c57-7a02-4cf6-b2c0-dc36b54a327e&istItemId=qqwtrraix&istBid=tzta&
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hi please see my recent detailed post regarding from and rear pad and disc replacement if if you cannot remove the discs screws by almeans's try an impact wrench if not use a pin punch to punch the screw around in an anti clockwise direction the screws i had were fitted at the swindon factory and had a blob of blue thread lock on them bit of a pig to release get new ones on e bay 6 mm csk i got all mine out this way and when replacing them just gave a sear of coppaslip for next time, still would fit them back as it can be a bit of a nuisance to assemble everything back just makes it easier and dont forget to grease your slider pins with high temp grease NOT COPASLIP!!!, also front pistons push back rears turn back hope this helps a very easy job to do good luck
ps used pagid discs and pads all round superb!!!!!
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Thanks again, both.
Given that they are much cheaper than I expected, I'll definitely invest in an impact driver before starting the job. I might try to reuse the screws or even leave them off, given that with most cars the discs are held on by the wheels and brake assembly.
Note taken of the need for high temp grease on the sliders rather than Copaslip also, thank you.
Just waiting for the window of a whole day when I can start the job and finish it in time to do other stuff, and off I jolly well pop.
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I wouldn't use ordinary High Temperature Grease on the sliders as grease will affect the rubber bellows. there is a proper brake grease for that. Last time I did the discs (I'm rather into overkill on brakes) I managed to snap the bit that fits into the impact driver. I had another bit and that released the screw but they were very tight. I just coppa-slip the screws and wind them in hand tight using the impact driver. Last MOT the mechanic returned the car to me (he was the foreman covering the holidaying MOT Tester) wanted to know who serviced my car because of the mechanical condition and quietness of the engine. 2013 and 80,000 miles (76,000) by me. The receptionist joked that they never make any money from me! Not had an advisory so far and long may it last. I wasn't too happy last weekend, somebody no doubt returning from the pub threw a pint guinness glass against the car not denting the bodywork but embedding glass into the paint over a nine or ten inch area. I wasn't a happy bunny!
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I wasn't too happy last weekend, somebody no doubt returning from the pub threw a pint guinness glass against the car not denting the bodywork but embedding glass into the paint over a nine or ten inch area. I wasn't a happy bunny!
What a f**kin mess. I hope they fell asleep, threw up, and choked on their own vomit.
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Thanks for the additional info about greasing the sliders, John, and sorry to hear that your car has fallen foul of pondlife. I'd echo Jocko's hope that Karma strikes them sooner rather than later.
I'm pretty good on tools and stuff but have to admit that I've never owned an impact driver. For loosening I'm thinking that the technique is to select the correct bit and fit in driver, set the driver to L, insert bit in screw and then strike with a hammer to loosen. Have I missed anything there?
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Thanks for the additional info about greasing the sliders, John, and sorry to hear that your car has fallen foul of pondlife. I'd echo Jocko's hope that Karma strikes them sooner rather than later.
I'm pretty good on tools and stuff but have to admit that I've never owned an impact driver. For loosening I'm thinking that the technique is to select the correct bit and fit in driver, set the driver to L, insert bit in screw and then strike with a hammer to loosen. Have I missed anything there?
The R and L are a bit confusing - CW and CCW would have been better.
Best way I have found is to fit the bit into driver, put it into screw head and then firmly turn the body of the impact driver the way you want the screw to move, (if it was already in the correct position it will not move, if it was not it will index to the correct position, I always try turning the driver body both ways and make sure it indexes to both positions before turning it the way I want it to 'drive') now keep the pressure on the body and hit the end with a 4lb lump hammer.
I did my discs a few weeks ago and the screws were that tight I had to resort to trying to tighten a couple of them slightly with impact driver before reversing it to unscrew them, the large contact area of the countersink screw head tends to lock the screw into place.
I have used TRW (a large OEM brake manufacturer as well as other parts) brake grease for a long time on slide pins and seals - the latest one is PFG110
http://www.partinfo.co.uk/files/XZS120GB.pdf
if you buy decent pads they normally include a sachet of high temp molybdenum grease for use on the pad 'ears' where they slide in the caliper, PFG110 is not suitable for that area.
most local auto factors sell both greases, as well as internet.
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Many thanks once more. I think I now have all the info I need to crack on with the job.
Will just pick up a couple of sachets of appropriate grease then off we jolly well pop, probably just as the sun vanishes and the thunderstorms arrive.
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Sorry...one more thing...job is set for Monday. :D
I've changed discs and pads on several Fords but never on any other make or model.
My usual routine when fitting the new pads has been to crack the reservoir cap before winding back the caliper piston and then removing any excess brake fluid if the level goes above Max.
I know they say you can flip the seals if you don't open a nipple brake nipple and crimp the hose before appling pressure to the piston, but this has never happened to me. What are other folks' thoughts on that risk?
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Sorry...one more thing...job is set for Monday. :D
I've changed discs and pads on several Fords but never on any other make or model.
My usual routine when fitting the new pads has been to crack the reservoir cap before winding back the caliper piston and then removing any excess brake fluid if the level goes above Max.
I know they say you can flip the seals if you don't open a nipple brake nipple and crimp the hose before appling pressure to the piston, but this has never happened to me. What are other folks' thoughts on that risk?
never opened a nipple or crimped a hose (seems silly to potentially seriously damage a hose by crimping it flat ) just removed the reservoir cap, but keep an eye on the level so it does not overflow, brake fluid and paint are sworn enemies. The volume of fluid in rear cylinders is nowhere near the volume of the front ones and it hardly raised the level in reservoir. The theory is that when new pads fitted all round the brake fluid reservoir should be at 'max' level line and as pads wear it drops to 'min' level line (barring leaks of course).
I use one of these for rear brakes https://www.lasertools.co.uk/product/1314 make sure the cross grooves in piston face are horizontal and vertical when piston is back, there is a about a 4mm diameter round boss protruding out of the rear face of the cylinder side brake pad and it has to locate in one of the grooves (presumably to stop the piston rotating) if this does not line up with a groove it will sit on the flat face and put uneven pressure on the cylinder side brake pad, the audible wear indicator (squeal bracket) goes at the bottom of the cylinder side pads, otherwise it fouls. If you find the caliper hard to get clear of the disc and back on again you may have to take a couple of bolts out of the handbrake cable bracket, I managed OK but it is a bit tight. Make sure you tighten the caliper mounting bracket fully before fitting the pads and fitting the caliper as the lower bolt (14mm spanner) is partly hidden when you put caliper on, and if it is unscrewed more than about 2 to 3 mm it can foul and stop caliper being fitted. You will need a 17mm open ended spanner to fit over slide pin hex (by the gaiter) to stop slide pin rotating when you unscrew and replace the slide pin retaining bolt (12mm spanner).
You will undoubtedly have to file the ends of the pad 'ears' to get them to slide freely in the caliper, I had to take at least 0,5mm off each end - and plenty of high temp molybdenum brake grease on the ears.
so you will need 12mm, 14mm and 17mm combination ring / open ended spanner and the brake piston retractor.
good luck
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Thanks for that detailed and very useful reply, Culzean.
I only intend to do the front discs and pads for now, as a brief inspection of the rears whilst one of tyres was being repaired confirmed that they have been done in the last 12 months. So I can concentrate on the front.
I've never owned a purpose made piston retraction tool but have used instead a G-clamp and a block of wood, but thanks for the link to the tool anyhow.
Surprised to hear that you need to shave some of the pad off to make it move freely, but I appreciate the heads up.
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Thanks for that detailed and very useful reply, Culzean.
I only intend to do the front discs and pads for now, as a brief inspection of the rears whilst one of tyres was being repaired confirmed that they have been done in the last 12 months. So I can concentrate on the front.
I've never owned a purpose made piston retraction tool but have used instead a G-clamp and a block of wood, but thanks for the link to the tool anyhow.
Surprised to hear that you need to shave some of the pad off to make it move freely, but I appreciate the heads up.
Front pads are a piece of p!55 (scuse my french) compared to rears, but don't be surprised if you have to file the both the ends and sides of pad 'ears' to get them to move freely, I have in the past wished I had a bench grinder instead of a hand file to make the job easier (despite buying OEM Honda pads) :o if the pad ears don't a bit of clearance they will undoubtedly bind up in the future due to corrosion and cause hot brakes / unequal pad wear.
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I changed rear pads in dec 2017 and filed nothing. Easy job.
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I've found removing the paint with a file on the ears (and a tad more) allows the pads free movement and never get a problem with them for 12 months when they get checked and cleaned up or replaced depending on how long they have been in place.
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I changed rear pads in dec 2017 and filed nothing. Easy job.
I have never had to file pads in my life. Clean out the caliper and slide them in.
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I suppose it depends upon the skill of the mechanic.... :o :o :o :o :D :D :D
(Only joking)
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I changed rear pads in dec 2017 and filed nothing. Easy job.
I have never had to file pads in my life. Clean out the caliper and slide them in.
Same here, and that's the answer. Remove the shims, clean any corrosion from the caliper faces, clean and refit the shims, a smear of your favourite assembly paste and the pads go in easy.
Not a bad MOT the other week, fail on offside headlamp aim and number plate bulb, sorted on the spot.
Also an advise on a slight bind on one of the rear brakes at MOT time turned out to be pads wedged solid, so tight I had to drift them out. Cleaned the calipers properly, and the pads slip back in nicely. Other side was very nearly as bad.
Another 12 months worry-free motoring! 8)
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Another 12 months worry-free motoring! 8)
Always a great feeling.
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I changed rear pads in dec 2017 and filed nothing. Easy job.
I have never had to file pads in my life. Clean out the caliper and slide them in.
Same here, and that's the answer. Remove the shims, clean any corrosion from the caliper faces, clean and refit the shims, a smear of your favourite assembly paste and the pads go in easy.
Also an advise on a slight bind on one of the rear brakes at MOT time turned out to be pads wedged solid, so tight I had to drift them out. Cleaned the calipers properly, and the pads slip back in nicely. Other side was very nearly as bad.
The whole idea of relieving the ears is that they do not bind up after a period of use, and the pads wear out before you need to take brakes apart and bash them out with a hammer and remedy the clearance. I know the difference between an interference fit and a clearance fit and pretty much every pad I have ever fitted has been too tight to even go into caliper jaws without at least half a mm removed, let alone make any attempt to slide. This is even after calipers cleaned and new shims - more surprising as majority of pads have been Honda, with new shims and bolts and sachet of moly grease supplied.
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All done, but embarrassingly, not by me.
I got all my tools out, laid them down by the car, took the wheel off and could I Hell remove the disc securing screws. I tried the impact driver but they refused to budge. Then I attacked them with a punch, but still couldn't shift them at all. Worse still, I left the heads of the screws in a pretty sorry state after bashing away at them for 15 minutes. And after all this build up I was SO looking forward to doing the job.
Anyhow, my next move was to call out a mobile mechanic whom I've used for years and ask him to have a crack. He removed the wheel, put the business end of a Philips screwdriver in the head of the disc screw, hit it a few times with a hammer and lo and behold, out it came, along with its neighbour. Same result on the other wheel. Red faced, I walked away and left him to it. :-[
Cost me a few quid, but the main casualty was my pride. Still, if I keep the car long enough I know the job will be a cinch next time round.
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All done, but embarrassingly, not by me.
I got all my tools out, laid them down by the car, took the wheel off and could I Hell remove the disc securing screws. I tried the impact driver but they refused to budge. Then I attacked them with a punch, but still couldn't shift them at all. Worse still, I left the heads of the screws in a pretty sorry state after bashing away at them for 15 minutes. And after all this build up I was SO looking forward to doing the job.
Anyhow, my next move was to call out a mobile mechanic whom I've used for years and ask him to have a crack. He removed the wheel, put the business end of a Philips screwdriver in the head of the disc screw, hit it a few times with a hammer and lo and behold, out it came, along with its neighbour. Same result on the other wheel. Red faced, I walked away and left him to it. :-[
Cost me a few quid, but the main casualty was my pride. Still, if I keep the car long enough I know the job will be a cinch next time round.
I had a problem as well, but then I used impact driver to tighten the screw before reversing it to slacken it, that is pretty much what your mechanic did. I only hand tighten the screws but countersink screws are notorious for locking themselves in due to large contact area of countersink. Now I put copper grease under head and on the thread. The screws are only there to stop disc falling off when caliper is removed, otherwise wheel nut hold the disc on.
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I suppose I could have drilled the screws out as a last resort, but the main barrier to success was not being sure just how hard I could hit the tools without doing some damage. I guess that kind of assessment comes with experience, and its never been necessary for me when doing discs and pads on previous cars to employ anything more than moderate force.
Of course, there are times when brute force doesn't cut the mustard. I once watched that same mobile mechanic using a lump hammer to bash seven bells out of a rear brake drum which had seized solid on a Mk1 Focus, and even he couldn't shift it with the kind of equipment he was able to carry in his van.
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In extreme cases you have to resort to using an angle grinder!!
I have had first hand experience many years ago on a Ford Fiesta.......
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I suppose I could have drilled the screws out as a last resort, but the main barrier to success was not being sure just how hard I could hit the tools without doing some damage. I guess that kind of assessment comes with experience, and its never been necessary for me when doing discs and pads on previous cars to employ anything more than moderate force.
Of course, there are times when brute force doesn't cut the mustard. I once watched that same mobile mechanic using a lump hammer to bash seven bells out of a rear brake drum which had seized solid on a Mk1 Focus, and even he couldn't shift it with the kind of equipment he was able to carry in his van.
I use a four pound builders lump hammer with my impact driver, because you are driving the bit into screw and turning it at same time you can use a bit of force, main thing is to make sure the bit is turning the correct direction when you hit the driver, I found the best way is to put screwdriver bit into screw head and firmly turn body of driver , turn it both ways to check its movement and body will move relative to bit and click into position, the last time you turn it should be the way you want screw to turn (normally anticlockwise as you don't normally tighten right hand threads with the impact driver) and click body into detent ( I find R and L markings a bit ambiguous).
I would happily drill the head off any seized disc retainer screw and not put another screw back in. With four M12 wheel bolts holding the disc on then a couple of little screws are hardly going to be needed.
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I would happily drill the head off any seized disc retainer screw and not put another screw back in. With four M12 wheel bolts holding the disc on then a couple of little screws are hardly going to be needed.
Did exactly that on our Peugeot 106 front disks and it happily motored for another 10 years like that.. I assume it is done for assembly production line purposes where the front suspension comes assembled complete with hubs and disks and wheels are added when suspension is on car.. No screws means the disks would fall off in transit to factory.
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I would happily drill the head off any seized disc retainer screw and not put another screw back in. With four M12 wheel bolts holding the disc on then a couple of little screws are hardly going to be needed.
Did exactly that on our Peugeot 106 front disks and it happily motored for another 10 years like that.. I assume it is done for assembly production line purposes where the front suspension comes assembled complete with hubs and disks and wheels are added when suspension is on car.. No screws means the disks would fall off in transit to factory.
Very true, screws there probably just to hold discs on until calipers are fitted on production line, once calipers are in place disc will not fall off
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I have replaced original discs last week for the first time, so as far as I am aware they haven't been off the car in 15 years, after reading no end of complaints about these retaining screws I found a YouTube video of a yank removing them from a civic. He explained that Japanese manufacturers use screws with a Japanese Industrial Standard head, not a Philips, and he used a Japanese Vessel brand impact driver (size3) which is basically a screwdriver you hit with a hammer and it turns the head of the screw 15 degrees if you can hang onto it.
I bought one of these for about £11 on eBay from Japan and it worked fine although I had to really give it some Welly to shift the nearside ones, I also followed suggestions on here to tighten slightly before loosening, I don't know if this is a definitive solution or I just got lucky but the driver was no dearer than new screws and I've now got the driver for next time or next car. Vessel tools seem to be excellent quality, I'd never heard of them before.
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Anyhow, my next move was to call out a mobile mechanic whom I've used for years and ask him to have a crack. He removed the wheel, put the business end of a Philips screwdriver in the head of the disc screw, hit it a few times with a hammer and lo and behold, out it came, along with its neighbour. Same result on the other wheel. Red faced, I walked away and left him to it. :-[
Cost me a few quid, but the main casualty was my pride.
Perhaps other people are different but I've found I've lost my 'touch' for working on cars, and with that goes a loss of confidence too.
If you watch a pro-mechanic working they make most things look easy - because they're doing it all day, every day.