Second referendum for Scotland

[ColinB]

As a relatively uninvolved citizen of the UK*, I can’t quite get my head around exactly what the Scottish politicians want to do, and why.

There are numerous voices expressing disappointment with Westminster, and calling for the right of self-determination so that an independent Scotland can make it’s own way in the world. But those same politicians are saying they’ll take Scotland back into the EU, indeed that desire seems to be the major driver for another referendum. And, as we were told during the Brexit campaign, the EU is an undemocratic institution run by unelected officials with an ultimate aim of financial and political union across Europe. So how, exactly, does re-entering the EU align with the stated desire for an independent Scotland ? Looks like swapping one union for a much bigger one with wider interests across the continent that may well conflict with what the Scots people might want. Why do they want to do that ?

*Apart from being a little grumpy that a referendum involving less than 10% of the UK’s population might result in the break-up of the nation of which I am a citizen. But that’s another argument.

[Jocko]

My personal feeling is that remaining/rejoining the EU is not high on the SNP list of priorities. It is just the excuse they need to push for a second referendum. Once we are out of the EU you may find that Scottish politicians are not so keen to rejoin as the make out now. And once the Scottish populace realise they are free of the EU's shackles, they may not wish to rejoin either.
If Scotland becomes an independent nation, then surely rejoining the EU should be put to the people of Scotland in a referendum (unless it is decided before hand in an independent Scotland general election).

[sparky Paul]

as we were told during the Brexit campaign, the EU is an undemocratic institution run by unelected officials with an ultimate aim of financial and political union across Europe. So how, exactly, does re-entering the EU align with the stated desire for an independent Scotland ? Looks like swapping one union for a much bigger one with wider interests across the continent that may well conflict with what the Scots people might want. Why do they want to do that ?

I too am not sure that rejoining the EU would be top priority for an independent Scotland, but I do think that many Scots see themselves more closely aligned with the social democratic Nordic country model, rather than the increasingly more right wing administration inhabiting Westminster. That's the feeling I get from some of those I speak to. The SNP's metamorphosis from an anti-Westminster nationalist protest group into a centre-left party with a full programme for government has been the single biggest driver in supplanting the Labour Party in Scotland.

As to the EU being inherently undemocratic, despite the trope that has been drilled into people over the last 20 years, I would suggest that it is still a more democratic system than Westminster. Just because we don't always get our own way, that does not mean it's inherently undemocratic. The main objection to the EU is that it is inherently federalistic, and there's no denying that, but they have to give the masses something they can understand and and get their teeth into - hence the rage at this perceived lack of democracy.

Two current government ministers are no longer serving MPs, one by choice and the other was actually rejected by the electorate, losing his seat. Boris bunged them both into the House of Lords and allowed them to carry on their respective positions as Government ministers. Where's the democracy in that? What of the rest of the 800-odd strong hereditary and appointed House of Lords?

[sparky Paul]

Further to the above,

Whether you would join the EU now, or explode a 40-odd year old cultural and trading union, are two very different questions. 

[JimSh]

As a relatively uninvolved citizen of the UK*, I can’t quite get my head around exactly what the Scottish politicians want to do, and why.

There are numerous voices expressing disappointment with Westminster, and calling for the right of self-determination so that an independent Scotland can make it’s own way in the world. But those same politicians are saying they’ll take Scotland back into the EU, indeed that desire seems to be the major driver for another referendum. And, as we were told during the Brexit campaign, the EU is an undemocratic institution run by unelected officials with an ultimate aim of financial and political union across Europe. So how, exactly, does re-entering the EU align with the stated desire for an independent Scotland ? Looks like swapping one union for a much bigger one with wider interests across the continent that may well conflict with what the Scots people might want. Why do they want to do that ?

*Apart from being a little grumpy that a referendum involving less than 10% of the UK’s population might result in the break-up of the nation of which I am a citizen. But that’s another argument.

I  can’t speak for all of Scotland, only for myself but I would prefer to see Scotland as a small, friendly, outward -looking country as part of Europe than as part of a competitive, xenophobic UK.

Could it be that  you have been misled in the approach to the referendum and subsequently and that the EU is more open and democratic  than the UK system of government. Johnson and Cummings have ridden roughshod over British democracy in the last few weeks and will no doubt continue to do so now that they have been given carte blanche.
There are numerous advantages to remainining  in the EU.
 I don’t want to go over old ground but I asked in a previous thread if any body could provide any reasons to leave and got no real answer. Only that 17.4million people had voted for it.
Here are 98 reasons for staying.
https://smallbusinessprices.co.uk/remain-eu/
I would prefer the whole of the UK to remain in the EU but failing that I would prefer to live in a Scotland with a parliament in Scotland   and enjoy the freedom of movement, tariff –free trade, joint research, workers' rights, environmental protection, etc that the EU has to offer.

 

My personal feeling is that remaining/rejoining the EU is not high on the SNP list of priorities. It is just the excuse they need to push for a second referendum. Once we are out of the EU you may find that Scottish politicians are not so keen to rejoin as the make out now. And once the Scottish populace realise they are free of the EU's shackles, they may not wish to rejoin either.
If Scotland becomes an independent nation, then surely rejoining the EU should be put to the people of Scotland in a referendum (unless it is decided before hand in an independent Scotland general election).

It would be top of my list Jocko. I don't think Scotland has any aspirations to go it alone.

https://www.alynsmith.eu/_leave_a_light_on_for_scotland_alyn_urges_eu


Latest Edit Changed link to Alyn Smith's speech.Follow the hyperlink to the Twitter page and have a look at tweet someway down by "Names is for Tombstones Baby" which shows a  slightly longer version of video including the reaction of UKIP MEPs. to the speech.

Apologies if my reply overlaps others. I had started to reply before lunch.

[culzean]

Whether you would join the EU now, or explode a 40-odd year old cultural and trading union, are two very different questions.

Or indeed explode a 300 year old trading and cultural union in favour of a 40 year old one...

[sparky Paul]

Or indeed explode a 300 year old trading and cultural union in favour of a 40 year old one...

It's easy to make these matters seem simplistic and a matter of national pride, but that 300 year old union didn't give us a customs union with 27 other countries, enabling us to trade freely without customs barriers and associated financial impediments.

I send goods all over the world, but it is significantly more difficult to sell these specialist goods outside the EU. A large amount of my trade is with countries within the EU, any sort of trade deal outside of a customs union will probably spell the end for me. Okay, this business is not my whole income, but it is significant, and I can absolutely understand how other smaller scale exporters to the EU feel right now. If Scotland were to leave the UK and rejoin the EU, I might well be persuaded to take my business there.

I'm sure it's not something that would bother many, but it still makes me sad to think that my children will not have the same freedom our generation had to live, work, or study anywhere in the EU they choose.

[JimSh]

I send goods all over the world, but it is significantly more difficult to sell these specialist goods outside the EU. A large amount of my trade is with countries within the EU, any sort of trade deal outside of a customs union will probably spell the end for me. Okay, this business is not my whole income, but it is significant, and I can absolutely understand how other smaller scale exporters to the EU feel right now. If Scotland were to leave the UK and rejoin the EU, I might well be persuaded to take my business there.

I'm sure it's not something that would bother many, but it still makes me sad to think that my children will not have the same freedom our generation had to live, work, or study anywhere in the EU they choose.

You would be very welcome.

[culzean]

Or indeed explode a 300 year old trading and cultural union in favour of a 40 year old one...

It's easy to make these matters seem simplistic and a matter of national pride, but that 300 year old union didn't give us a customs union with 27 other countries, enabling us to trade freely without customs barriers and associated financial impediments.

No -it gave Scotland access to the worlds largest and most successful trading empire and the benefit of the British military, and membership of the Commonwealth - but i suppose that is peanuts compared to the EU    Oh and there was this failed attempt by Scotland to build its own empire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darien_scheme

Didn't that work out well ! Seems England bailing out Scotland is not confined to 21st century....

[ColinB]

So, in response to my slightly tongue-in-cheek question about "What's the game the Scottish politicians are playing?", I see several arguments in the responses (VMT).

Firstly:

My personal feeling is that remaining/rejoining the EU is not high on the SNP list of priorities. It is just the excuse they need to push for a second referendum.

I too am not sure that rejoining the EU would be top priority for an independent Scotland,

Hmm, that doesn't really hold water. It seems a little trusting to pick and choose which of the SNP's pronouncements you would prefer to believe, eg that the grass would be greener outside the UK and that it is absolutely essential to leave but not that an independent Scotland would rejoin the EU. The thing that's changed since the last IndyRef (which was billed as "once in a generation") is the Brexit thing and that's being touted as the reason for needing a new referendum. Any reneging on a major stated driver for independence is likely to quickly sully the SNP's reputation.

Then we have the argument that the EU is more democratic than Westminster. Sounds surprising to me, and I have insufficient knowledge of the deep details to be personally clear one way or another. The fact that Scotland has recently voted SNP in a big way and now has a big lobby group in Westminster suggests the UK system is actually quite democratic. Just because that result has not automatically resulted in independence surely reflects the fact that Scotland has <10% of the UK's population, so of course democracy - when applied across the whole country - means that Scotland must go along with the majority. Just like (say) London, or Bristol.

I  can’t speak for all of Scotland, only for myself but I would prefer to see Scotland as a small, friendly, outward -looking country as part of Europe than as part of a competitive, xenophobic UK.

I'm sure it's not something that would bother many, but it still makes me sad to think that my children will not have the same freedom our generation had to live, work, or study anywhere in the EU they choose.

Now those are arguments I can agree with! But they are arguments against Brexit (and please let's not go there again), not in favour of independence. Some folks have already expressed doubt that the SNP would carry through the idea of rejoining, if that happened it would leave Scotland more isolated than ever and without those benefits.

So sorry, I still don't quite see the long game the politicians are playing.

[culzean]

So sorry, I still don't quite see the long game the politicians are playing.

The SNP do not have a long game,  the ego of their leaders knows no bounds and demonising the English is what keeps them in power, Sturgeon has the overweening desire to be the first Prime Minister of an independent Scotland, her mind cannot see beyond that - and if Scotland suffers in the process - so what - she will have got her hearts desire and her name will be in the history books !

[Jocko]

Hmm, that doesn't really hold water. It seems a little trusting to pick and choose which of the SNP's pronouncements you would prefer to believe, eg that the grass would be greener outside the UK and that it is absolutely essential to leave but not that an independent Scotland would rejoin the EU. The thing that's changed since the last IndyRef (which was billed as "once in a generation") is the Brexit thing and that's being touted as the reason for needing a new referendum. Any reneging on a major stated driver for independence is likely to quickly sully the SNP's reputation.

You are preaching to the wrong man. I do not believe anything the SNP says about independence. And as for after independence................ Scotland would have to elect a new parliament and the SNP would have to take its chances against whatever other candidates stand. After all, like the Brexit party, the SNP would have fulfilled its aims, and like the Brexit party, would be redundant.

[guest4871]

So sorry, I still don't quite see the long game the politicians are playing.

The SNP do not have a long game,  the ego of their leaders knows no bounds and demonising the English is what keeps them in power, Sturgeon has the overweening desire to be the first Prime Minister of an independent Scotland, her mind cannot see beyond that - and if Scotland suffers in the process - so what - she will have got her hearts desire and her name will be in the history books !

Talking of history and the long game, we are coming up to the 700th anniversary in April of the Declaration of Arbroath of 1320.

The more things change the more they stay the same.

[JimSh]

No -it gave Scotland access to the worlds largest and most successful trading empire and the benefit of the British military, and membership of the Commonwealth - but i suppose that is peanuts compared to the EU    Oh and there was this failed attempt by Scotland to build its own empire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darien_scheme

Didn't that work out well ! Seems England bailing out Scotland is not confined to 21st century....

Seems like your interpretation of the Darien Venture  (and MartinJG's) are different from mine. The idea seemed like a good one (to cut shipping times by portaging the isthmus of Panama). It was originally going to be a joint Dutch, English and Scottish venture but the Dutch and English reneged. The wealthy Scots involved overextended themselves and raised money from the ordinary people. Many sank their life savings into it. When the scheme failed it almost bankrupted Scotland. The wealthy Scots (the Parcel of Rogues) then did a deal with the English government effectively bargaining away Scottish Sovereignty and leading to the 1707 Act of Union. Money and honours were returned to the Scottish Nobles but not to the Scottish people.

https://www.last.fm/music/Dick+Gaughan/_/Such+a+Parcel+O%27+Rogues+In+a+Nation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Such_a_Parcel_of_Rogues_in_a_Nation

From the last Wiki reference naming the Rogues

One Englishman was a member of the Company of Scotland and signatory to the Act, and certainly under modern rules would be deemed to have an unacceptable personal interest and motive in the Act:

    John Smith (Chancellor of the Exchequer)

[guest4871]

I  can’t speak for all of Scotland, only for myself but I would prefer to see Scotland as a small, friendly, outward -looking country as part of Europe than as part of a competitive, xenophobic UK.

Could it be that  you have been misled in the approach to the referendum and subsequently and that the EU is more open and democratic  than the UK system of government. Johnson and Cummings have ridden roughshod over British democracy in the last few weeks and will no doubt continue to do so now that they have been given carte blanche.
There are numerous advantages to remainining  in the EU.
 I don’t want to go over old ground but I asked in a previous thread if any body could provide any reasons to leave and got no real answer. Only that 17.4million people had voted for it.
Here are 98 reasons for staying.
https://smallbusinessprices.co.uk/remain-eu/
I would prefer the whole of the UK to remain in the EU but failing that I would prefer to live in a Scotland with a parliament in Scotland   and enjoy the freedom of movement, tariff –free trade, joint research, workers' rights, environmental protection, etc that the EU has to offer.

 

My personal feeling is that remaining/rejoining the EU is not high on the SNP list of priorities. It is just the excuse they need to push for a second referendum. Once we are out of the EU you may find that Scottish politicians are not so keen to rejoin as the make out now. And once the Scottish populace realise they are free of the EU's shackles, they may not wish to rejoin either.
If Scotland becomes an independent nation, then surely rejoining the EU should be put to the people of Scotland in a referendum (unless it is decided before hand in an independent Scotland general election).

It would be top of my list Jocko. I don't think Scotland has any aspirations to go it alone.

https://www.alynsmith.eu/_leave_a_light_on_for_scotland_alyn_urges_eu


Latest Edit Changed link to Alyn Smith's speech.Follow the hyperlink to the Twitter page and have a look at tweet someway down by "Names is for Tombstones Baby" which shows a  slightly longer version of video including the reaction of UKIP MEPs. to the speech.

Apologies if my reply overlaps others. I had started to reply before lunch.

I deeply sympathise with your aspirations. I fear realty may not be kind to you. I joke not about the importance of Scotland's geopolitical location to the maintenance of world peace.

Calling the United Kingdom Government "xenophobic" suggests the word has been misunderstood.

Over 50% of births in London now are to mothers who were not born in the United Kingdom. Xenophobic means a fear (phobia) of foreigners.  Foreigners can be local from the next village or town.

EU democracy does not allow politicians to propose policy. It is the role of the unelected Commission to propose policy. The Commission is unaccountable to the people . That is why the European Union is considered undemocratic

There was one overriding reason 17.4 million British people voted to leave the European Union which is exactly the same as that which the SNP purports for Scottish independence , as I understand it, in that they want the independence to govern themselves, even if they are worse off financially.

The post referendum arguments were all about economic issues which never carried sway (nor any interest) with those who wanted independence from the European Union. The same would no doubt apply in Scotland.

Immigration was also stated as a reason but only in the sense there was no regulation of the level of immigration from the European Union. This came back to the first point which was self government.

The statement that "Johnson and Cummings have ridden roughshod over British democracy in the last few weeks" is not born out by the result of  the General Election where the SNP have 48 seats with 3.9% of the national vote and the Liberal Democrats have 11 seats with 11.5% of the national vote.

The first past the post system has, in this case, suited the SNP very well.

Some would argue that, like Sinn Fein, the SNP should not take up their seats in a United Kingdom Parliament at Westminster, whose influence over them they so oppose.