Second referendum for Scotland

[Jocko]

I don't understand what the beef is lots of people appear to have with Scotland and/or The Scottish people, there's no need to be afraid of giving people a choice unless your worried they wont agree with you. I'm a Scot living in England and don't want Scotland to leave the UK from a personal point of view.
It is clear that Scotland is an integral part of the UK and there would be no winners if we (UK & Scotland) couldn't continue to trade freely and share commitments like defence after any split.
There has been a fundamental change in the lay of the land since the indyref, a major reason for Scots to stay in the UK was to keep membership of the EU, so people may now have a very different opinion than they did then. Alternatively having seen the Brexit shambles they may want to avoid more of the same, either way it should be up to the people of Scotland.
I've got my doubts about the SNP's ability to run an independant Scotland prudently, but that's another debate.

My sentiments exactly. As I said before, I was a Yes, now I'm a No. For pretty much the reasons you stated.
As for the SNP running an independent Scotland, I think that if Scotland becomes an Independent country the politics will revert back to a Left /Right party system, as most other countries have.
The SNP slogan, back in the 60s, was "Lend us your vote".

[JimSh]

I don't understand what the beef is lots of people appear to have with Scotland and/or The Scottish people, there's no need to be afraid of giving people a choice unless your worried they wont agree with you. I'm a Scot living in England and don't want Scotland to leave the UK from a personal point of view.
It is clear that Scotland is an integral part of the UK and there would be no winners if we (UK & Scotland) couldn't continue to trade freely and share commitments like defence after any split.
There has been a fundamental change in the lay of the land since the indyref, a major reason for Scots to stay in the UK was to keep membership of the EU, so people may now have a very different opinion than they did then. Alternatively having seen the Brexit shambles they may want to avoid more of the same, either way it should be up to the people of Scotland.
I've got my doubts about the SNP's ability to run an independant Scotland prudently, but that's another debate.

My sentiments exactly. As I said before, I was a Yes, now I'm a No. For pretty much the reasons you stated.
As for the SNP running an independent Scotland, I think that if Scotland becomes an Independent country the politics will revert back to a Left /Right party system, as most other countries have.
The SNP slogan, back in the 60s, was "Lend us your vote".

As Jocko says, once the SNP have achieved independence they will have fulfilled their function and cease to exist.
This will give Scotland the opportunity to develop a less confrontational style of government  than the shouty, FPTP, winner- takes- all, "blame-the last-lot"  Westminster model.

[MartinJG]

Keeping right out of this debate after the sad demise of the WTO rules thread.

However, despite the best of intentions, it seems invariably more prudent to allow folk to be masters of their own mess rather than interfere on the grounds of common sense and reason. Despite the frustration of the last three years concerning Brexit, finally, the people have spoken and we have an emphatic resolution. It remains to be seen whether and how this translates into a result. The Scottish issue, by comparison, seems to be a veritable Pandora's Box. Nuff said. Happy Xmas to all and a Happy Hogmanay to the Scottish contingent.

[culzean]

Seems more prudent to me to wait a few years to see how Brexit pans out before muddying the waters with another Scottish referendum, we have heard so many naysayers and doom merchants in the last 3-1/2 years saying the sky was gonna fall in after leave vote, but the opposite seems to have happened - record low unemployment trade and exports to countries outside EU rising at a steady rate and meantime the EU economy continues to hover on brink of recession, high unemployment in most EU member States, Euro currency on life support......

[JimSh]

it seems invariably more prudent to allow folk to be masters of their own mess rather than interfere on the grounds of common sense and reason.
 

The mess , however, is  not of Scotland’s doing .
It is an  Eton mess which should have been confined to the Tory party. Unfortunately the mess has now splattered over the whole UK and Ireland and also affects mainland Europe. Cameron, May and Johnson put party before country and have allowed the far right of their party to take over.

Despite the frustration of the last three years concerning Brexit, finally, the people have spoken and we have an emphatic resolution. It remains to be seen whether and how this translates into a result.

The Brexit issue is far from being resolved.  It is only beginning and will last for decades.

The Scottish issue, by comparison, seems to be a veritable Pandora's Box.

The Scottish issue is another unforeseen (or perhaps not) consequence like the Irish Border issue.
Expect to see the intransigent Scots replace the Europeans, in the popular press, as the cause of all the UK's woes

[MartinJG]

it seems invariably more prudent to allow folk to be masters of their own mess rather than interfere on the grounds of common sense and reason.
 

The mess , however, is  not of Scotland’s doing .
It is an  Eton mess which should have been confined to the Tory party. Unfortunately the mess has now splattered over the whole UK and Ireland and also affects mainland Europe. Cameron, May and Johnson put party before country and have allowed the far right of their party to take over.

Despite the frustration of the last three years concerning Brexit, finally, the people have spoken and we have an emphatic resolution. It remains to be seen whether and how this translates into a result.

The Brexit issue is far from being resolved.  It is only beginning and will last for decades.

The Scottish issue, by comparison, seems to be a veritable Pandora's Box.

The Scottish issue is another unforeseen (or perhaps not) consequence like the Irish Border issue.
Expect to see the intransigent Scots replace the Europeans, in the popular press, as the cause of all the UK's woes

Actually, the mess goes back a few hundred years and was largely precipitated by the ruling Scottish classes, the Lairds and the Clans, who saw the opportunity for gain and exploitation and did deals with the English. The rest, as the saying goes, is history. So nothing new there about power grabbing and manipulation, it's just that it is more convenient and fashionable to blame the English for anything and everything. Before you dive headlong into a tirade, stop for a second and consider Macbeth. Fiction of course, but not without parallels.

[JimSh]

Actually, the mess goes back a few hundred years and was largely precipitated by the ruling Scottish classes, the Lairds and the Clans, who saw the opportunity for gain and exploitation and did deals with the English. The rest, as the saying goes, is history. So nothing new there about power grabbing and manipulation, it's just that it is more convenient and fashionable to blame the English for anything and everything. Before you dive headlong into a tirade, stop for a second and consider Macbeth. Fiction of course, but not without parallels.

Where did I blame "the English" ?

[Jocko]

I see English NHS trusts are going to allow free parking for some patients and night shift staff, from April.
Scotland's "failing" NHS has had free parking for all, since 2008 (except for a few PFI hospitals where parking charges are part of the contract).
Be interesting to see how the government fund it,

[JimSh]

This is one of the best articles I have read on Scottish independence and the attitudes towards it both in Scotland and in England. It dates from just over a year ago so some of the events mentioned have been superceded but I think it stands the test of time.

https://theorkneynews.scot/2018/11/17/farming-matters-the-tipping-point/?fbclid=IwAR1iWjw802PS0R1lLAbUER_p-Tw8Ql7vupz3-Loe66LIYYR7tupHBc1P6n8

Please read beyond the first paragraph.

[sparky Paul]

This is one of the best articles I have read on Scottish independence and the attitudes towards it both in Scotland and in England. It dates from just over a year ago so some of the events mentioned have been superceded but I think it stands the test of time.

https://theorkneynews.scot/2018/11/17/farming-matters-the-tipping-point/?fbclid=IwAR1iWjw802PS0R1lLAbUER_p-Tw8Ql7vupz3-Loe66LIYYR7tupHBc1P6n8

Please read beyond the first paragraph.

Good article, well worth a read. Not much has changed...

[JimSh]

This is one of the best articles I have read on Scottish independence and the attitudes towards it both in Scotland and in England. It dates from just over a year ago so some of the events mentioned have been superceded but I think it stands the test of time.

https://theorkneynews.scot/2018/11/17/farming-matters-the-tipping-point/?fbclid=IwAR1iWjw802PS0R1lLAbUER_p-Tw8Ql7vupz3-Loe66LIYYR7tupHBc1P6n8

Please read beyond the first paragraph.

Good article, well worth a read. Not much has changed...

Well there has been the rise and lies of Boris Johnson

https://boris-johnson-lies.com/
https://williambowles.info/2019/11/09/peter-obornes-file-of-boris-johnsons-lies-is-published/

[culzean]

Labour lost election because of the porkies they told, Boris is PM and Scotland will not get an indyef while UK has conservative government - which means next 20 years or longer until pathetic Labour party get their act together, don't hold your breath.

[JimSh]

Labour lost election because of the porkies they told, Boris is PM and Scotland will not get an indyef while UK has conservative government - which means next 20 years or longer until pathetic Labour party get their act together, don't hold your breath.

Labour lost the election due to Jeremy Corbyn’s wishy-washy, fence -sitting  Brexit plan and the anti-semitic, terrorist- supporting, threat- to- national- security lies about JC propagated by the Tory-supporting billionaire press barons.
Unfortunately it looks like Johnson has at least 5 years to do as he pleases which is why Scotland needs to escape from the mayhem.

[culzean]

The only times labour have been elected into government since early 1970's is when crypto-capitalist Tony B Liar was leading them,  and they had more spin-doctors than the NHS had real doctors, but in the end the voters saw through them and their spin and lies and kicked them out.

[sparky Paul]

when crypto-capitalist Tony B Liar was leading them,  and they had more spin-doctors than the NHS had real doctors

I don't know where you read this stuff, but that's utter rubbish.

The number of spin doctors, or "special advisers", employed by government has never been higher.


https://www.democraticaudit.com/2018/12/21/theyre-making-a-list-the-inexorable-rise-of-the-special-political-adviser/

There are currently more special advisers than at any point under Labour and almost as many as during the highest point of the coalition government.

That is 12 months old, but the number of special advisers has increased since then.


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/20/special-adviser-numbers-rise-under-boris-johnson