Author Topic: Honest Answers Required - Is the Mk3 better than the Mk2?  (Read 1595 times)

peteo48

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Re: Honest Answers Required - Is the Mk3 better than the Mk2?
« Reply #30 on: November 12, 2017, 03:10:07 PM »
I suspect a lot depends on where you do most of your driving as well. My experience is only as a passenger in a Jazz CVT and an Auris Hybrid. Where I really noticed the din was when the car was accelerating to join the motorway. The engine seemed to be screaming in protest as the revs rose sharply but there was only sluggish acceleration. The other scenario, as mentioned above, was a Jazz CVT struggling up a steepish hill.

Both cars were much better round town. I suppose you might get used to the noise in time.

andruec

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Re: Honest Answers Required - Is the Mk3 better than the Mk2?
« Reply #31 on: November 12, 2017, 03:56:40 PM »
One thing that is concerning me, having read loads of contributions on Revoo but also on Which, is criticism of the manual gearbox. The one in both the Mk1 and the Mk2 are class leading but I'm hearing reports of notchiness and clunkiness. Many see the Mk3 gearbox as inferior to that on the Mk2.

I couldn't contemplate the CVT - the screaming as you accelerate would drive me mad!
It doesn't scream. If you push it it gives out a cute but willing growl. If you're driving sensibly you can't hear it.

andruec

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Re: Honest Answers Required - Is the Mk3 better than the Mk2?
« Reply #32 on: November 12, 2017, 03:59:42 PM »

Back to topic, I am very glad I did not buy a Mk 3. Although I have never driven one, (this type of car I own not for drive ability but functionality), I wanted the car with bigger windows and more practical boot space and not excessive leg room in the rear. Nor did I want a car with "driving aids" or a touch screen.

I personally think the two are different cars, different interpretations of the same concept, and thus the preference must purely that of the user.  If they were both concurrent new cars side by side I would chose the Mk 2. That they are consecutive is only a matter of production practicality.

PS I love the CVT. I cannot imagine why anyone would want to "change gears" for a pastime and a CVT knocks 1000 spots off a conventional automatic .

This is what is, slowly but surely, turning me away from the Mk3. I have just noticed that they've removed the passenger's cup holder - my Mrs will go ape!

The CVT thing is interesting. I've been a passenger in 2 cars with CVT boxes - a Mk2 Jazz and, more recently, a Toyota Auris hybrid. The noise from both cars is/was horrendous. It's like driving a car with a badly slipping clutch. The Jazz CVT was woeful on hills - almost scarily so.
What? Its just the sound of an engine running at a constant - and ideal - RPM. It's not noisy. It's the sound of good engineering. The Rise fall of RPM under acceleration that you are so familiar with is the sound of compromise.

You just need to re-educate your hearing. A CVT is not noisy. It's correct.

Downsizer

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Re: Honest Answers Required - Is the Mk3 better than the Mk2?
« Reply #33 on: November 12, 2017, 04:15:20 PM »
However I now have the opinion of somebody with a mechanical engineering background who has spent a lifetime in the industry. CVTs, he says, are a particularly nasty bit of cost cutting and he hates them with a passion. He prefers more conventional automatics which spare you the slipping clutch sensation.
I feel this opinion is in fact prejudice.  CVT may sound like a slipping clutch, but the cause is very different - cvt is the logical way of running the engine at the optimum speed for the required power output.  I doubt if the cost is very different from other less efficient forms of automatic transmission.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 04:22:52 PM by Downsizer »

Kenneve

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Re: Honest Answers Required - Is the Mk3 better than the Mk2?
« Reply #34 on: November 12, 2017, 05:17:24 PM »
What seems to have been lost in all this discussion, is the fact that virtually all petrol engines have to run at high speed to obtain the quoted horsepower.
Horsepower is the product of Torque (ft/lbs) x Revs divided by 33000. Therefore the 100 hp quoted in the specs is only obtained at roughly 6000 Rpm.
At normal operating speeds, circa 2000-3000 Rpm it is doubtful whether even 50 Hp  is generated, hence the need for CVTs or manual gearboxes to operate at a ratio to suit those parameters, if you want to obtain maximum performance.
Quite obviously the CVT has an advantage here since the transmission is continuously variable and is able to facilitate the running of the engine at optimum speed, to obtain the required power.
Yes there are occasions when you will be running the engine at 5000 maybe 6000 RPM, but it is designed to do exactly that, without any harm.

peteo48

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Re: Honest Answers Required - Is the Mk3 better than the Mk2?
« Reply #35 on: November 12, 2017, 07:46:07 PM »
Interesting discussion and thanks for all the input.

I will accept that, on the CVT issue, you need to suck it and see. It did cross my mind that the slipping clutch sensation might be due to a heavy right foot on the part of both the drivers of the two cars that I have been a passenger in.

It's certainly something that divides opinion both on here but more widely.

peteo48

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Re: Honest Answers Required - Is the Mk3 better than the Mk2?
« Reply #36 on: November 12, 2017, 07:55:24 PM »
However I now have the opinion of somebody with a mechanical engineering background who has spent a lifetime in the industry. CVTs, he says, are a particularly nasty bit of cost cutting and he hates them with a passion. He prefers more conventional automatics which spare you the slipping clutch sensation.
I feel this opinion is in fact prejudice.  CVT may sound like a slipping clutch, but the cause is very different - cvt is the logical way of running the engine at the optimum speed for the required power output.  I doubt if the cost is very different from other less efficient forms of automatic transmission.

My understanding is that they contain fewer parts and are simpler to manufacture so cost is an issue. That doesn't just come from my own source but a bit of internet research as well.

On the other hand, CVTs do deliver better fuel economy than manuals whereas automatics were traditionally more thirsty. That has to be a strong point in their favour.

andruec

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Re: Honest Answers Required - Is the Mk3 better than the Mk2?
« Reply #37 on: November 12, 2017, 08:47:18 PM »
However I now have the opinion of somebody with a mechanical engineering background who has spent a lifetime in the industry. CVTs, he says, are a particularly nasty bit of cost cutting and he hates them with a passion. He prefers more conventional automatics which spare you the slipping clutch sensation.
I feel this opinion is in fact prejudice.  CVT may sound like a slipping clutch, but the cause is very different - cvt is the logical way of running the engine at the optimum speed for the required power output.  I doubt if the cost is very different from other less efficient forms of automatic transmission.

My understanding is that they contain fewer parts and are simpler to manufacture so cost is an issue. That doesn't just come from my own source but a bit of internet research as well.

On the other hand, CVTs do deliver better fuel economy than manuals whereas automatics were traditionally more thirsty. That has to be a strong point in their favour.
Personally I also love the smoothness of a CVT but unfortunately the Mk3's dual mode engine has taken some of that away.

Deeps

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Re: Honest Answers Required - Is the Mk3 better than the Mk2?
« Reply #38 on: November 12, 2017, 10:06:01 PM »
One thing that is concerning me, having read loads of contributions on Revoo but also on Which, is criticism of the manual gearbox. The one in both the Mk1 and the Mk2 are class leading but I'm hearing reports of notchiness and clunkiness. Many see the Mk3 gearbox as inferior to that on the Mk2.

I couldn't contemplate the CVT - the screaming as you accelerate would drive me mad!

The manual gearbox on my car is a delight to use. Light and precise, one of the better ones I have used. It can be notchy if you get lazy and don't depress the clutch pedal fully when changing gear, particularly if you pull the lever out of a gear before the clutch is fully disengaged. I think any problems are self inflicted.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 10:10:27 PM by Deeps »

zzaj

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Re: Honest Answers Required - Is the Mk3 better than the Mk2?
« Reply #39 on: November 12, 2017, 10:37:51 PM »
The manual gearbox on my car is a delight to use. Light and precise, one of the better ones I have used. It can be notchy if you get lazy and don't depress the clutch pedal fully when changing gear, particularly if you pull the lever out of a gear before the clutch is fully disengaged. I think any problems are self inflicted.

All sounds very complicated to me.

With CVT you don't have any of these problems in the first place.

Jocko

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Re: Honest Answers Required - Is the Mk3 better than the Mk2?
« Reply #40 on: November 13, 2017, 07:56:15 AM »
All sounds very complicated to me.
Yes, pushing the clutch down before changing gear really challenges my abilities. As an automatic driver for over 25 years I don't know how I ever manage. Worse than doing a quickstep!  ::)

andruec

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Re: Honest Answers Required - Is the Mk3 better than the Mk2?
« Reply #41 on: November 13, 2017, 08:35:16 AM »
All sounds very complicated to me.
Yes, pushing the clutch down before changing gear really challenges my abilities. As an automatic driver for over 25 years I don't know how I ever manage. Worse than doing a quickstep!  ::)
When I take mine to the dealer for work I inevitably end up with a manual courtesy car. I think the gearbox on the Mk3 is fine. I was a bit perturbed when I realised it had six gears though. My clutch skills aren't what they were but nothing that using a few more RPM couldn't fix  ;D

peteo48

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Re: Honest Answers Required - Is the Mk3 better than the Mk2?
« Reply #42 on: November 13, 2017, 10:45:11 AM »
One thing that is concerning me, having read loads of contributions on Revoo but also on Which, is criticism of the manual gearbox. The one in both the Mk1 and the Mk2 are class leading but I'm hearing reports of notchiness and clunkiness. Many see the Mk3 gearbox as inferior to that on the Mk2.

I couldn't contemplate the CVT - the screaming as you accelerate would drive me mad!

The manual gearbox on my car is a delight to use. Light and precise, one of the better ones I have used. It can be notchy if you get lazy and don't depress the clutch pedal fully when changing gear, particularly if you pull the lever out of a gear before the clutch is fully disengaged. I think any problems are self inflicted.

Really helpful - thanks. I think some people do get lazy with not depressing the clutch properly. Incidentally saw an Irish road test of the Mk3 on YouTube. The tester was positively drooling over the manual gear change.

Deeps

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Re: Honest Answers Required - Is the Mk3 better than the Mk2?
« Reply #43 on: November 13, 2017, 11:12:10 AM »
Honda should have left the CVTs on the vehicles they were designed for - snowmobiles and scooters.

zzaj

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Re: Honest Answers Required - Is the Mk3 better than the Mk2?
« Reply #44 on: November 13, 2017, 12:50:53 PM »
Honda should have left the CVTs on the vehicles they were designed for - snowmobiles and scooters.

Yet this is the same transmission that was banned from Formula One before the first car so equipped, a 1993 prototype by Williams, turned a single lap in competition.

There will always be manual and automatic transmissions for those people who actually need them, but CVT is for those who want seamless transmission that saves them money at the pump!

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