Author Topic: Honest Answers Required - Is the Mk3 better than the Mk2?  (Read 1677 times)

andruec

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Re: Honest Answers Required - Is the Mk3 better than the Mk2?
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2017, 08:21:34 AM »
I find third and fourth gears the most useful for performance use, overtaking etc. They are both usable from almost walking pace to 80mph. We all potter about but if you want to get a move on and accelerate hard you have to get the engine above 3,000 revs, you will not harm it, it is designed to work at these speeds.
Indeed. I occasionally like to let rip by putting my CVT in 'S' then flooring the accelerator. Revs go straight to 4,500 then a gradual climb up to the red line. No need to pause for gear changes :)

Deeps

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Re: Honest Answers Required - Is the Mk3 better than the Mk2?
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2017, 08:38:29 AM »
Otherwise known as the rubber band effect. The MT car's 4,5, and sixth gears are overdrive gears (less than 1 to 1 ratio) so third is the most versatile gear for using power. Sorry to hear about your inability to change gear.  :D
« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 08:46:06 AM by Deeps »

culzean

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Re: Honest Answers Required - Is the Mk3 better than the Mk2?
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2017, 09:31:14 AM »
Otherwise known as the rubber band effect. The MT car's 4,5, and sixth gears are overdrive gears (less than 1 to 1 ratio) so third is the most versatile gear for using power. Sorry to hear about your inability to change gear.  :D

No ICE vehicle can really have a overall gear ratio less than 1:1 where the engine crankshaft turns less than once for each turn of the road wheel.  The ratio in the final drive (differential) will be in the range 3.5:1 and 4.5:1 normally.  This means that even if top gear is 0.75:1 in the gearbox the overall ratio between engine and road wheel is still more than 1:1.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

Deeps

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Re: Honest Answers Required - Is the Mk3 better than the Mk2?
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2017, 09:37:08 AM »
I was referring to gearbox ratios which effect the engine to road wheel ratio. The final drive ratio is fixed and irrelevant in this discussion. The top three gearbox ratios are overdrive ratios as the input is slower than the output.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 09:41:52 AM by Deeps »

Jocko

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Re: Honest Answers Required - Is the Mk3 better than the Mk2?
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2017, 09:45:18 AM »
I was referring to gearbox ratios which effect the engine to road wheel ratio. The final drive ratio is fixed and irrelevant in this discussion. The top three gearbox ratios are overdrive ratios as the input is slower than the output.
Deeps is quite correct.
https://www.freeasestudyguides.com/gear-ratio.html

andruec

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Re: Honest Answers Required - Is the Mk3 better than the Mk2?
« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2017, 09:49:18 AM »
Otherwise known as the rubber band effect. The MT car's 4,5, and sixth gears are overdrive gears (less than 1 to 1 ratio) so third is the most versatile gear for using power. Sorry to hear about your inability to change gear.  :D
and I'm sorry to hear that you have to keep pulling a lever in order to keep the car in approximately the right gear ratio. Mine is almost(*) always in exactly the right ratio ;)

Also last I checked the CVT has a longer top gear. Presumably because any top gear you have is inevitable inadequate at the very end of its range whereas 100% of my box's available ratios are all useful. I assume that's where the better fuel consumption comes from.

(*)Aside from some confusion occasionally caused around the engine mode cross-over.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 09:51:27 AM by andruec »

culzean

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Re: Honest Answers Required - Is the Mk3 better than the Mk2?
« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2017, 10:17:41 AM »
I was referring to gearbox ratios which effect the engine to road wheel ratio. The final drive ratio is fixed and irrelevant in this discussion. The top three gearbox ratios are overdrive ratios as the input is slower than the output.

The gearbox ratios totally depend on the final drive ratio, so it cannot be ignored, if the final drive ratio was 2:1 none of the gearbox ratios could be less than 1:1  - the term overdrive is pretty archaic as it used to apply to Rear wheel drive trains where the differential was separated from the rear axle and the ‘overdrive’ bit  only referred to propeller shaft speed into rear axle compared engine revs (and a separate 'overdrive' gear unit to change ratio of propshaft revs to rear axle was fitted) .  With front wheel engines the differential is an integral part of the gearbox and the only output shaft is to the road wheels
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

Jocko

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Re: Honest Answers Required - Is the Mk3 better than the Mk2?
« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2017, 11:14:52 AM »
the term overdrive is pretty archaic as it used to apply to Rear wheel drive trains where the differential was separated from the rear axle and the ‘overdrive’ bit  only referred to propeller shaft speed into rear axle compared engine revs (and a separate 'overdrive' gear unit to change ratio of propshaft revs to rear axle was fitted) .  With front wheel engines the differential is an integral part of the gearbox and the only output shaft is to the road wheels
I think you will find that that was purely a British term, coined by Laycock de Normanville, for what was an auxiliary electrically or hydraulically operated epicyclic gear train bolted behind the transmission unit. In engineering terms overdrive is as stated by Deeps.
I had a Triumph 2.5 PI with the electrical overdrive and it was a wonderful piece of kit, working on 3rd and 4th gear at the flick of a switch on the gear knob (car only had a 4 speed box as was the norm back then). I could sit in slow moving traffic, in 3rd, and flick between 3rd and 4th as traffic changed, avoiding the need to change grear.

peteo48

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Re: Honest Answers Required - Is the Mk3 better than the Mk2?
« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2017, 12:43:59 PM »
One thing that is concerning me, having read loads of contributions on Revoo but also on Which, is criticism of the manual gearbox. The one in both the Mk1 and the Mk2 are class leading but I'm hearing reports of notchiness and clunkiness. Many see the Mk3 gearbox as inferior to that on the Mk2.

I couldn't contemplate the CVT - the screaming as you accelerate would drive me mad!

zzaj

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Re: Honest Answers Required - Is the Mk3 better than the Mk2?
« Reply #24 on: November 12, 2017, 12:48:58 PM »
As we seem to be roaming slightly off topic, This, from Wikipedia, might contribute to the debate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overdrive_(mechanics)

I must admit I got lost after the first line or two!

Back to topic, I am very glad I did not buy a Mk 3. Although I have never driven one, (this type of car I own not for drive ability but functionality), I wanted the car with bigger windows and more practical boot space and not excessive leg room in the rear. Nor did I want a car with "driving aids" or a touch screen.

I personally think the two are different cars, different interpretations of the same concept, and thus the preference must purely that of the user.  If they were both concurrent new cars side by side I would chose the Mk 2. That they are consecutive is only a matter of production practicality.

PS I love the CVT. I cannot imagine why anyone would want to "change gears" for a pastime and a CVT knocks 1000 spots off a conventional automatic .
« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 12:52:23 PM by zzaj »

peteo48

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Re: Honest Answers Required - Is the Mk3 better than the Mk2?
« Reply #25 on: November 12, 2017, 01:02:22 PM »

Back to topic, I am very glad I did not buy a Mk 3. Although I have never driven one, (this type of car I own not for drive ability but functionality), I wanted the car with bigger windows and more practical boot space and not excessive leg room in the rear. Nor did I want a car with "driving aids" or a touch screen.

I personally think the two are different cars, different interpretations of the same concept, and thus the preference must purely that of the user.  If they were both concurrent new cars side by side I would chose the Mk 2. That they are consecutive is only a matter of production practicality.

PS I love the CVT. I cannot imagine why anyone would want to "change gears" for a pastime and a CVT knocks 1000 spots off a conventional automatic .

This is what is, slowly but surely, turning me away from the Mk3. I have just noticed that they've removed the passenger's cup holder - my Mrs will go ape!

The CVT thing is interesting. I've been a passenger in 2 cars with CVT boxes - a Mk2 Jazz and, more recently, a Toyota Auris hybrid. The noise from both cars is/was horrendous. It's like driving a car with a badly slipping clutch. The Jazz CVT was woeful on hills - almost scarily so.

I must admit that, round town, they seemed OK. Now I have mentioned in the past that motoring journalists are almost universal in their condemnation of CVTs and that criticism has been dismissed as laziness and boy racer by CVT advocates.

However I now have the opinion of somebody with a mechanical engineering background who has spent a lifetime in the industry. CVTs, he says, are a particularly nasty bit of cost cutting and he hates them with a passion. He prefers more conventional automatics which spare you the slipping clutch sensation.

Seem to have hijacked my own thread here!

Deeps

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Re: Honest Answers Required - Is the Mk3 better than the Mk2?
« Reply #26 on: November 12, 2017, 01:11:37 PM »
As I have said before the MK3 is a complete redesign from the ground up. It is a completly different car and comparing it with previous models is a bit pointless. My MK3 is my first Honda and I compared it with other manufacturers current models when choosing the car. Choose a car that suits your requirements not the badge, which is just a brand. My last few cars have been Toyota, Hyundai, Kia, and Ford,  don't just buy a brand through loyalty, the car manufacturers have no loyalty to you.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 01:34:29 PM by Deeps »

Hobo

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Re: Honest Answers Required - Is the Mk3 better than the Mk2?
« Reply #27 on: November 12, 2017, 01:59:35 PM »
I couldn't contemplate the CVT - the screaming as you accelerate would drive me mad!

One of the reasons I went from a CVT Jazz which I had bought new to a Civic with a conventional auto box was the apparent sluggishness of the CVT especially under hard acceleration if needed for overtaking or going up steep hills, when I was loaned a Jazz courtesy car with a manual gearbox it appeared to be a far more lively vehicle to drive.

The other thing that put me off the CVT was the price Honda quote for a new box if it ever needed one, if the car was a few years old it would be cheaper to buy another car for the cost of the box.

mikebore

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Re: Honest Answers Required - Is the Mk3 better than the Mk2?
« Reply #28 on: November 12, 2017, 02:33:14 PM »
A lot of strange info appearing in this thread based on what people have heard other people say not from personal experience, about Mk3 and CVT.

As someone who has owned Mk1 Mk2 and Mk3 CVT I would not hesitate to get a Mk3 over a Mk2, and a Mk2 over a Mk1, and to chose a CVT every time.

Decisions as big as buying a car require hands on experience not hearsay.


Deeps

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Re: Honest Answers Required - Is the Mk3 better than the Mk2?
« Reply #29 on: November 12, 2017, 02:58:57 PM »
I have not driven a CVT fitted car but have driven many automatic cars and would expect that your opinion of it depends very much on your driving style and where the car is used (urban or rural). Also some people can't drive a manual car, I have friends in the USA and Australia who would not have a clue how to drive a manual transmission car.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 03:03:01 PM by Deeps »

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