Author Topic: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels  (Read 24940 times)

culzean

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Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2015, 05:37:28 PM »
NOx (NO2)  tax may be with us soon - that should re-balance the 'slightly lower CO2 but loads more of everything else Diesel vs Petrol argument),  then maybe a particulate tax (maybe to help NHS deal with Cancer caused by Diesel fumes).

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/93498/autumn-statement-2015-calls-for-diesel-scrappage-scheme-and-tax-rethink

below, conclusion from an EU paper published recently on Diesels and air quality.

Most European Governments have promoted policies that indirectly support the increase in the market share of diesel cars, by providing fiscal incentives for cars with lower CO2 emissions. These have replaced previous tax systems based on weight or power. There is evidence that these policies reduce real world CO2 but probably only marginally, but at the same time exacerbate poor urban air quality. The EU limit values for NO2, and PM10 remain difficult to achieve in many cities, and the policies to increase the number of diesel cars has indirectly made achievement of these limits more difficult.

attached is PDF report from Greater London Authority on future of diesel transport in London (and I guess most other UK cities).



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« Last Edit: November 22, 2015, 06:31:03 PM by culzean »
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culzean

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culzean

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Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2015, 09:59:27 AM »
Sobering reading about Euro standards for Diesel emissions, I was gobsmacked when I heard on a news program that car makers are not breaking the law in Europe by falsely claiming vehicles meet Euro standards when they patently don't by a country mile.  It is different in USA however, where people will end up in jail for same false claims.

Maybe they should be renamed as 'Diseasel engines' See link below and PDF attachment with data from real world tests

http://fleetworld.co.uk/news/2014/Oct/How-dirty-are-diesels/0434016426

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« Last Edit: December 19, 2015, 10:40:30 AM by culzean »
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John Ratsey

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Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2015, 02:02:16 PM »
The graphs highlight the NOx difference between diesel and petrol.

It might not be illegal for people to make false claims when selling products but surely the consumer legislation gives people the right to either return products for a refund or to be fixed? However, at present diesel owners have no incentive to take action. The ASA might also be able to deliver a light reprimand to the offenders.

IMO the government should (i) add an air quality levy to the annual VED (say £50 per half litre rounded up) and (ii) get the vehicle manufacturers to pay the difference in VED based on the claimed CO2 and retested CO2 until such time as each offending vehicle is scrapped. Had manufacturers been more realistic in their claims then government would be collecting more money from VED.

While manufacturers have been leaning on the European Commission to water down the proposed tighter vehicle emissions regulations, the European Parliament is trying to stand firm http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/93254/european-parliament-curbs-plans-to-relax-emissions-limits.
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chrisc

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Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2015, 03:37:08 PM »
VW got into trouble here in SA since the carbon tax added to the vehicle sales price was in proportion to the rate of particulates and C02 emitted from the exhaust.  Since these figures have been proven to be false, VW have been asked to recalculate the emissions to determine what tax should have been levied
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culzean

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Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2015, 10:34:56 AM »
article about VW in Auto Express 17 Dec 2015

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/volkswagen/92893/vw-emissions-scandal-recalls-compensation-is-your-car-affected-latest-news

Here is a clip from this article,  just shows how weak and skewed towards Diesel engines the EU emission laws are that 'to give good emissions/fuel consumption results, a manufacturer could specify a special setting that is not normally used for everyday driving' is included in legislation - well that just about confirms that the EU is officially a wholly owned subsidiary of the German government - when did Cameron say the referendum was being held,  can't wait to leave the self-serving zero growth superstate that EU has become and trade freely with the rest of the world without European laws as a millstone around our necks.

VW emissions cheat software may not break EU test laws

A loophole in EU emissions regulation looks to have allowed VW to build cars with the software device, as minutes from the 2012 meeting of the EU type approval authorities state: “The legislation does not clearly state the criteria by which the Type Approval authority may judge the validity of engine settings ‘prescribed by the manufacturer’ for the Type I test and there is a concern that, to give good emissions/fuel consumption results, a manufacturer could specify a special setting that is not normally used for everyday driving.”
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John Ratsey

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Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2016, 08:09:00 AM »
There's an interesting article in the latest Which? They have trawled through the emissions data collected during their testing of over 300 vehicles and made a list of the worst vehicles for NOx (diesel and petrol) and CO (petrol).

Three diesel vehicles in current production fail the Euro 1 NOx standard of 1g/km with the 3 L Jeep Grand Cherokee a long way out in front at 2.7 g/km. Only 7 of the 153 diesel vehicles tested usings Which?'s procedure passed the appropriate NOx standard.

10% of the petrol vehicles tested also failed the NOx standard. The worst was a Mercedes SL with 0.2 g/km closely followed by a Merc E class with a Mini Cooper just behind. 1.2 L Nissan Pulsar and 1.2 L Nissan Qashqai take 4th and 5th places. Two thirds of petrol vehicles also failed the CO standard. Top of the table is the Hyundai Veloster closely followed by a 1.2 L Nissan Note.

Honda's only mention in the report is that the Civic they tested produced 0.0027 g/km of NOx.
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culzean

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Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2016, 11:12:36 AM »
US department of Justice sues VW over misleading emissions - now it gets really interesting (and expensive for VW)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35227435
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John Ratsey

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Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2016, 02:32:39 PM »
US department of Justice sues VW over misleading emissions - now it gets really interesting (and expensive for VW)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35227435
Quote
"The complaint alleges that nearly 600,000 diesel engine vehicles had illegal defeat devices installed that impair their emission control systems and cause emissions to exceed EPA's standards, resulting in harmful air pollution," the filing said.
There's a small flaw in the argument: All evidence points to vehicles that didn't have defeat devices and passed the testing still have real life emissions (ie the type which result in air polution) above the EPA's standards. So the real case is against whoever designed the tests needs to be in court as well. Something similar needs to happen in Europe with whoever has caused the procrastination of the introduction of the new vehicle tests being prosecuted for unnecessarily endangering human health.
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culzean

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Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2016, 12:17:07 PM »
I can understand the legislators in EU (who are undoubtedly in bed with European car makers) not wanting to update the Diesel tests because they knew the cars would not pass any updated, more 'real life' test regime.   The Japs realised many years ago that Diesel engines were a 'dead end technology' that would never meet the tight emission standards that were on the horizon (especially in USA and Japan) and concentrated on Hybrid petrol cars.  EU got miffed and banned Japs from the EU discussions (in about 2005 I think).  Interestingly even Direct injection petrol engines emit Higher NOx than 'normal 'manifold injected petrol engines, but not as much a Diesels.

Remember when Bio-Diesel and Ethanol were going to save the planet,  tropical countries were encouraged to grow palm oil, maize, soya and sugar cane - this meant the wholesale destruction of rainforest to make room for the 'bio-crops' - and all this while people in those very same countries were starving.

Next bandwagon seems to be plug in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEV) where because they can run on electric battery power for say 18miles (unless you want the heater on) they magically become exempt from VED, congestion charge etc.  The fact that when engine is required they only do 30mpg is not taken into account, another fudge if ever I saw one.

The perilous state of our electrical supply in UK (because of fragmentation of generating companies and lack of investment, lack of leadership from successive governments,  too much reliance on unreliable 'renewable wind and solar'  ) where we have only 1 or 2 % spare capacity in winter means that if everyone plugs their electric car in to charge some parts of the country may suffer power cuts,  To fit in with 'Carbon emission legislation' we are replacing coal with valuable gas to generate electricity at 40% efficiency where it can be burned at over 90% in domestic boilers to provide heat. All the while Germany and other countries are still building coal powered power station. Someone even thought it was a good idea to transport wood chippings all the way from Canada to replace British coal in power stations - madness on a grand scale.

« Last Edit: January 24, 2016, 12:24:50 PM by culzean »
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RichardA

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Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
« Reply #25 on: April 24, 2016, 06:48:37 PM »
Porsche, Volkswagen, Audi, Opel and Mercedes diesel cars will be recalled as part of a clampdown on nitrogen oxide emissions, according to a German government official:

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/apr/22/mitsubishi-scandal-us-regulator-demands-data

(BMW, which invested in fuel-saving technologies earlier than most rivals, is not part of the recall)

Meanwhile, Volkswagen will buy back or repair about 500,000 of its cars in the US at cost of $10bn as it tries to recover from the “dieselgate” emissions scandal:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/04/21/vw-faces-10bn-bill-to-buy-back-500000-cars-hit-by-dieselegate-in/

And Mitsubishi Motors has admitted manipulating test data to overstate the fuel efficiency of 625,000 cars:

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/apr/20/mitsubishi-motors-mishandled-fuel-economy-tests

John Ratsey

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Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
« Reply #26 on: April 24, 2016, 07:07:41 PM »
However, Honda isn't completely in the clear: This report (last para) http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36106783 says that the Honda CRV was among the vehicles which exceeded Euro 5 NOX of 180mg per km in real life testing.

And, with next year's introduction of the flat rate car tax, we can look forward to people moving back to bigger and more polluting engines.
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guest6230

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Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2016, 12:33:22 PM »
I often used to wonder how brand new Audi TDi's could emit so much smoke going down motorway slip roads, now I know! I also wondered why Alfa's mpg figures for their TDi's were so much lower than VW's given the engine specs were virtually the same. It's a total scandal and I hope it kills these primitive polluting agricultural machines. The German government had concerns about the level of soot found in Germans lungs long ago and I can't help thinking that they knew about it all along. I'd now like to see roadside spot checks done on diesel cars to make sure they comply to emissions. It will be interesting to see how the private law suits progress in the US now VW has agreed to a $14.7 billion payout for owners.

I believe hybrid electric cars are a stop gap and hydrogen fuel cell is the future.

guest1372

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French fall out of love with diesels
« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2016, 11:40:55 AM »
Tue Sep 6, 2016 3:40pm BST Exclusive: Renault sees diesel disappearing from most of its European cars

http://uk.reuters.com/article/us-renault-diesel-exclusive-idUKKCN11C1MF

"Tougher standards and testing methods will increase technology costs to the point where diesel is forced out of the market," the source summarized Bollore as saying.

Diesel engines, pricier but more efficient than gasoline, had already vanished from the smallest 'A'-segment vehicles like Renault's Twingo well before VW's so-called 'dieselgate', as their extra expense outstripped savings on fuel.  By 2020, Renault now predicts that the toughening of Euro 6 emissions rules will push diesel out of cars in the next 'B'-segment size category, including its Clio sub compact, as well as some 'C' models such as the Megane hatchback, the sources said.  Models in those first three size categories accounted for most of the group's 1.6 million European deliveries last year, and more than 60 percent were diesels.

"Everybody is backtracking on diesel because after 2017-18 it becomes more and more expensive," said Pavan Potluri, a power train analyst with consulting firm IHS Automotive.

Starting in 2019, however, vehicle approvals will be based on emissions performance during real driving. This is forcing manufacturers to install costlier emissions treatment systems.  The business case for diesel can only deteriorate further, industry leaders realize, as targets become stricter, while electric and hybrid car batteries get cheaper and more powerful.

"Beyond 2025 there may be some manufacturers that completely drop diesel, because the cost of electrification will have come down significantly," Potluri said.

Diesel car sales will plummet to 9 percent of the European market in 2030 from 52 percent today, management consultant AlixPartners - regarded as an authority on the auto industry - predicted in June, with the decline accelerating after 2020.



Was driven in a diesel/electric Peugeot a while back, although it's discontinued that seemed to make quite a lot of sense.  It was start/stop and used the electric from standstill, and also blended that in when the semi-auto changed gears - the front was just a regular diesel engine & transmission, the back had a motor/generator set with a small battery pack.  It could do either power source or both, the high torque rear and the long range efficient front was the right mix and it surprisingly did an 8 second 0-60.  Crawling along was quite good with the diesel only firing up when we got going.  You could select modes if you wanted such as EV only or 4wd, but the brains would change it after certain thresholds were reached.

A pretty simple piece of engineering from (I think) Bosch.  The only visible difference was extra battery cables running to the back.
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culzean

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Re: VW emissions scandel / French fall out of love with diesels
« Reply #29 on: November 16, 2016, 02:11:39 PM »
http://www.consumerreports.org/volkswagen/14-7-billion-volkswagen-diesel-settlement-wins-final-approval/

This is probably the start of a very tough time for European vehicles in USA,  especially Diesels

love the quote from the writer..........

I grew up in Detroit's Golden Age, driving a glamorous, vintage 65 Olds Cutlass in high school and my college years. Later, I experienced the joys and expense of European engineering through a succession of cars made by VW, Volvo and Saab. That was before the reliable and spacious Honda minivan. Now I'm covering auto safety, new technology and corporate accountability for CR from Washington, D.C. Follow me on Twitter @jplungis.

« Last Edit: November 16, 2016, 04:23:55 PM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

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