Clubjazz - Honda Jazz & HR-V Forums
Honda Jazz Forums => Honda Jazz Mk2 2008-2015 => Topic started by: Rory on January 24, 2018, 12:06:58 PM
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On daughters 2014 30K mile Jazz - any ideas what it might be?
It only seems to start once the car is faster than a crawl. I noticed it as she drove off and got a brief chance to drive the car today and it seems to come and go randomly and be unaffected by braking or not. She thought it was something in the boot!
I think there are audible wear indicators on the front pads - I've never heard them on any of our Jazzes but it was the same kind of noise I'd expect them to make, but I don't think they're on the rear pads and I wouldn't have expected the rears to go first.
Does Jazz have an electric fuel pump? I've heard of them squealing sometimes.
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A stone or something caught between the disc and it's guard?
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Could be, but the sound had more of a ringing / tinkling to it than I'd have expected, although perhaps the guard rings. I hope she hasn't run over a reindeer!
Apparently it's due to go in for the airbag recall so she'll get the dealer to investigate. I'm bracing myself for being told it needs pads and discs all round - I couldn't get a good look at them today but they didn't seem too clever, although usually the dealers start pushing to replace at 50% and they weren't highlighted last service.
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Could be, but the sound had more of a ringing / tinkling to it than I'd have expected, although perhaps the guard rings. I hope she hasn't run over a reindeer!
Apparently it's due to go in for the airbag recall so she'll get the dealer to investigate. I'm bracing myself for being told it needs pads and discs all round - I couldn't get a good look at them today but they didn't seem too clever, although usually the dealers start pushing to replace at 50% and they weren't highlighted last service.
Pad wear indicators start squealing at about 1.6mm left on pad
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Pad wear indicators start squealing at about 1.6mm left on pad
Am I right in thinking they're only on the fronts? And do you know if the squeal all the time, or only when braking?
Just occurred to me to search YouTube and there's a video on there which has more of scraping sound but the comments say it does sometimes sound like ringing, so that may well be it.
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Pad wear indicators start squealing at about 1.6mm left on pad
Am I right in thinking they're only on the fronts? And do you know if the squeal all the time, or only when braking?
Just occurred to me to search YouTube and there's a video on there which has more of scraping sound but the comments say it does sometimes sound like ringing, so that may well be it.
They are on both back and front pads, they look like a bit of shiny stainless bracket that sits over side of pad, 2 x photos on PDF attached - the bracket it more like a tuning fork and will 'squeal' loudly.
There is nothing on disc brakes to pull the pads away from disc (unlike drum brakes where there are strong springs to pull shoes clear away from drums, disc brakes always 'drag' even when your not pressing brake pedal), so depending on amount of wear the metal strip could rub on disc even when not braking.
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On daughters 2014 30K mile Jazz - any ideas what it might be?
It only seems to start once the car is faster than a crawl. I noticed it as she drove off and got a brief chance to drive the car today and it seems to come and go randomly and be unaffected by braking or not. She thought it was something in the boot!
I think there are audible wear indicators on the front pads - I've never heard them on any of our Jazzes but it was the same kind of noise I'd expect them to make, but I don't think they're on the rear pads and I wouldn't have expected the rears to go first.
Does Jazz have an electric fuel pump? I've heard of them squealing sometimes.
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i had something similar.
it turned out to be a brake pad that had worn more than the other.
i thought it was a wheel bearing to start off with but alas a set of pads soon stopped it.
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Well, daughter took car into the dealer yesterday for the airbag recall and to investigate the noise.
She rang me last night to say the dealer said they couldn't hear it!
I called the service manager this morning and asked if she dropped in could he have a listen. He agreed, no problem, and she went in at lunchtime (was passing anyway). He sent a tech out who heard the noise, looked at the car and pronounced that it's corrosion on the front discs and suggested replacing them.
I can't say it isn't that, but quite why it produces a quite loud "grabbing" noise (as if reversing with the handbrake not released) and then a ringing noise when going forwards is baffling to me.
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Replacing front discs at 30K ?? Dealer looking for income again.
Pads could well be worn down in 30K especially if the caliper is sticking, which means it will not equalise movement and the pad that sits on the piston (the inside pad) will wear much quicker than the outside pad. 30k is about right for pads (especially if used about town with lots of braking), discs normally need replacing once every second set of pads.
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It's not that they're worn, they said the disc was rusty. I find that unlikely given that the car is used every day around town, so plenty of brake use. At last service the fronts pads were reported as 20% worn and the rear 10% - although I have to say that both those figures seem a massive under-statement. Just glancing at the outer pads I'd have said they're all at least 50% worn.
I just can't conceive of how the noise - especially the grabbing/rubbing noise in reverse when she backs out of our drive and really makes you wince - is caused by corrosion on the disk. If it was that you'd think a few hard stops would fix it. But that was the first thing I tried.
There's a well regarded ex-Honda indie in town - I might take it in there if I can get the car off her and see what they think.
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+1. To Reply No1. re stone caught up between disc and disc guard.
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+2 to stone caught. Happened to us. Wife thought car was about to fall to bits. :o
Garage had a good laugh and cleared the stone out for nothing. She did go back with a box of biscuits for their teabreak though :-*
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It's been doing it for 3 weeks now so I don't think it's going to be a stone. I'd have hoped the garage might notice that if it was!
I did wonder if one of the guards was catching, but again would hope they'd see that.
It's the very fact that it's continued which is most surprising - I thought it would go away or get worse.
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Rusty discs produce a grinding / dragging noise when brake is applied and make brakes very sharp and grabby. I had a road chip trapped between steel pad backplate and disc and it squealed like a banshee, but it did it all the time the wheel was moving, I had to knock it out with a hammer and screwdriver.
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I could be wrong, of course, but I'll be gobsmacked if the noises the car is making are caused by a rusty brake disk.
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It is possible for a stone or other hard foreign object to be so lodged tween disc and cover to have to be extracted by using force. Imagine a granite chip wedge shaped getting down between the disc and cover with the pointed end facing into the gap. Every revolution is forcing it further in. If you can jack the car up and turn the probable rear wheel slowly a) you might hear the noise and b) might be able to see a scratch or score.
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I'm hoping the weather will warm up a bit and I'll take a look. I'm getting a bit past rolling around under cars though!
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Rusting on discs normally refers to a ring of rust round the outer edge of the area swept by the pads. As shown in this photo:
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRvzj7Rmeid2yt2kOs6D6sIkxRIfItXIHhnksusqW0aHFWZSaSf)
What my son-in-law does, when he has worked on brakes for me, is use a heavy blunt screwdriver like a lathe tool. He spins the disc and uses the screwdriver to scrape the rust off. It doesn't have to be clean. Just reduced sufficiently so as not to rub against anything.
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Well, not sure where the disconnect is but the service manager just emailed me to say one of the inside rear pads is 95% worn and the noise I'm hearing is the acoustic wear indicator.
This is now entirely consistent with what I expected, so I feel some relief at the explanation. I've asked him quite why this wasn't detected first time (both the wear and the noise) and what, bearing in mind the rear pads were reported at 10% worn last service, does he think the reason for this is.
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All you need is for one pad to be stuck due to corrosion and it will wear - often unevenly. It may then tip on breaking so one end wear quicker.. and if it's the inner pad and worn at the edge nearest to the bearings, an external inspection will not show it.
But some garages make a nice living form early pad replacements >:(
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I would guess the caliper is seized / sticking on the slide pins, this means caliper will no longer equalise (there is only a piston on inner side of caliper and when it forces the inner pad against disc the whole caliper assembly is supposed to slide across on 2 'slide pins' so that the outer pad (without piston) pushes on the disc with equal force to the inner pad) - the pins have rubber concertina bellows to keep dirt and water out, it is not unknown for ham fisted mechanics to split or displace these bellows when working on brakes and once the water gets in the pins rust and no longer slide freely. Plenty of information about slide pin lubrication on this forum. Normally the pins clean up pretty well with a bit of fine emery paper and a bit of Ceratec or TRW PFG110 brake grease fixes it. Do not use ordinary petroleum based grease on brake parts as it causes rubber gaiters and seals to swell and disintegrate.......
https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=9314.msg50359#msg50359
new slide pin kits with lubricant are available
http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Brakes-International/Brake-Caliper-Slider-Pins-/_i.html?_nkw=honda+jazz+2012&submit=Search&_fsub=522765519&_sid=1067998489
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I guess the issue now is whether the caliper can be freed off or if it needs to be replaced.
The car has 5yr warranty coverage so I'm a bit stuck with letting the dealer do the rear discs and pads and seeing what happens.
I have suggested to the service manager that their first look at the car, not hearing the noise, and declaring it to be OK, is not the level of expertise I would expect, and that I also wouldn't have expected to be replacing rear pads and discs at this point, but at the moment he's having none of it.
He's blaming my daughter as she baulked at paying the £140 they asked for to do further diagnostic work after they said they thought the car was fine and couldn't hear the noise. So she went away happy - she only took the car back as I insisted.
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I guess the issue now is whether the caliper can be freed off or if it needs to be replaced.
The car has 5yr warranty coverage so I'm a bit stuck with letting the dealer do the rear discs and pads and seeing what happens.
I have suggested to the service manager that their first look at the car, not hearing the noise, and declaring it to be OK, is not the level of expertise I would expect, and that I also wouldn't have expected to be replacing rear pads and discs at this point, but at the moment he's having none of it.
He's blaming my daughter as she baulked at paying the £140 they asked for to do further diagnostic work after they said they thought the car was fine and couldn't hear the noise. So she went away happy - she only took the car back as I insisted.
They sound like pretty slack people if you ask me, and more excuses than the Guinness world book of excuses :o Cleaning or replacing the slide pins is not a hard job and only needs basic tools. I have had a couple of sticky calipers over the years and have been able to clean up the slide pins and a bit of decent brake grease is all it needed. Whenever I change pads now I re-lube the pins as they are the number one care point on the calipers, I have never had to replace piston seals or a caliper. If you keep the brake fluid in good condition it will prevent any corrosion in the system or the cylinders and save heaps of trouble.
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Rory, what is the name and location of the dealership? Some of us may wish to avoid them, in the future!
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Whenever I change pads now I re-lube the pins as they are the number one care point on the calipers,
When I used to service our cars I'd strip and clean the brakes but of course dealers don't do that sort of thing these days. To be fair, even the indie I use for my Merc said it doesn't really make sense - once they get in there they might as well change the pads, oh, and the discs of course! They want the parts profit, not just the labour.
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Rory, what is the name and location of the dealership? Some of us may wish to avoid them, in the future!
It's Cheshire Oaks Honda, part of the Holdcroft group.
They replaced the excellent independent TwoMills a few years ago as part of Honda gearing up for increased sales in the UK. We all know how that went! There also used to be Saunders in Chester and around here there were loads of Hondas. Now they're a rare sight. It should have been a no-brainer for my wife to move from Jazz to HR-V or CRV but she bought a Tiguan instead.
To be honest, I have no idea how the dealer survives - I read it cost £6m to build and the place is always deserted.
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Its well known around Merseyside, their previous place Two Mills thrived on Mugen Honda's to the point where they went bust. The key these days is finding a local garage that recognizes the value of customers with mechanics rather than technicians who cannot talk to people.
Large dealerships appear to thrive by providing finance to reach weekly monthly targets supplemented by trying it on with Lifeshine & GAP insurance bonuses...
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Its well known around Merseyside, their previous place Two Mills thrived on Mugen Honda's to the point where they went bust.
The business became untenable when Honda took the franchise away. The shut down was quite sudden as they looked at carrying on but decided (or maybe the banks decided for them?) to liquidate instead.
Some of the former Saunders Chester people set up a repair only place on the other side of Chester - Saunders for Service. They have a good reputation but I think the Honda element of their work is quite small now. I've had some contact with them but not yet used them. Might put our older Honda there for its next service.
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To close this out, as they say: Had a bit of back and forth with the dealer service manager but it's clear my dissatisfaction with their inability to find the problem first time or that the vehicle health check is so superficial that it misses something like this, is getting through to him. Not to mention that the problem arose in the first place, but perhaps it is just one of things - no-one seems to even spray brake cleaner on brakes anymore, never mind actually service them.
Anyway it was playing on my mind so got the car in there this morning and they changed the rear pads and discs and they very pointedly mentioned a build-up of dirt in the caliper was causing uneven pad wear.
Unfortunately neither the service manager or the dealer principal were in today but the service advisor took it upon himself to try and re-run the whole argument. I didn't really want to go there so just paid up.
He advised we should jet-wash the calipers, which I have to say is counter to what I'd have thought was a good idea.
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To close this out, as they say: Had a bit of back and forth with the dealer service manager but it's clear my dissatisfaction with their inability to find the problem first time or that the vehicle health check is so superficial that it misses something like this, is getting through to him. Not to mention that the problem arose in the first place, but perhaps it is just one of things - no-one seems to even spray brake cleaner on brakes anymore, never mind actually service them.
Anyway it was playing on my mind so got the car in there this morning and they changed the rear pads and discs and they very pointedly mentioned a build-up of dirt in the caliper was causing uneven pad wear.
Unfortunately neither the service manager or the dealer principal were in today but the service advisor took it upon himself to try and re-run the whole argument. I didn't really want to go there so just paid up.
He advised we should jet-wash the calipers, which I have to say is counter to what I'd have thought was a good idea.
Problem with rear disc brakes and alloy wheels is that the rear brakes pick up so much crap it is unbelievable. Many people think that drum brakes on the rear are 'old tech' and are put off by them. Drum brakes are more than adequate and make a better handbrake, shoes will last 100,000 miles minimum and drums last forever. I know rear drums are harder to work on but the truth is they need very little attention. I am amazed how much cleaner my rear brakes are with winter tyres on (steel wheels, and wheel trims ) due to much better protection than alloys give.
Strange that the service guy advised jet washing brakes, that is certain to push water past seals and bellows and cause even more rusting and trouble - It seems that service people are not what they used to be (a lot of them used to actually be interested in cars rather than just a day job - sounds like your guy was selling double glazing earlier in his career)). Sounds like the guy was actually trying to shift the blame on to you for not jet-washing and otherwise 'maintaining' the brakes. As I said before the whole thing was a very poor show, all they want to do is sell new cars and change the oil (although I would not even trust that guy to change the oil) and charge exhorbitant prices.
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I found out the hard way NOT to jet wash around the brakes. All it did was fill up the gap tween this and that and needed a strip down to get the grit out of the caliper/pads and cover. I had covered the discs etc up with a plastic bag but a pressure washer laughs at plastic bags.
Incidentally, I had problems with a main dealer and brakes. Eventually done BUT as they had replaced the pads prior to selling the car and when I made a fuss they replaced the front discs NOT the pads and replaced rear discs and pads. When I put it to Honda, it was done as a good will gesture. They would not comment on the front pads not being replaced. The problem with some dealers it seems is that if it passes it's MOT that's fine BUT modern cars should do more than JUST PASS the MOT. By the By it had a Honda 2 yr extended warranty. There was more substance in what I have just written than their flipping warranty.
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On the jet washing of brakes - was jet washing (the body of) my own car at the weekend and a neighbour started chatting. He works for a car manufacturer and, unprompted, said they've had a bulletin to keep jet washers completely away from the wheel area as they had an incident where a brake hose was cut and they determined it'd been done by a jet wash.
More generally I've been merrily exchanging emails with the dealer and Honda UK. Honda UK are just repeating back to me what the dealer are saying - it's like their customer service has no depth within Honda.
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I've been back and forth with Honda UK customer service on this issue of why one of the rear brake pads wore out before the others. It's become quite amusing as the person responding doesn't appear to understand or have any idea what she's talking about. I've managed to string it out for several weeks now by questioned every excuse she gives.
I do feel genuinely miffed that this has cost my daughter money when it really shouldn't have done yet. I don't think it's the dealers fault, they just made it worse by not finding the issue. The attitude of their staff doesn't help though.
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Unequal pad wear definitely due to seized or badly lubricated slide pins, and not that rare so surprised that Honda workshop did not pick it up, especially as the wear strips make a distinctive noise.
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Given that those of the fair sex can be just as clued up as us blokes, it never ceases to amaze me how, technical dept of a company employ people that have no idea of the subject in which they will receive queries. Blokes as well.
I had problems with a Lady at Honda's tech dept and all I got was referred to a main dealer. After many letters I got them to accept my problem could not answered by a main dealer as my query involved steep hills and main dealers were all on the flat. They then reverted back to stonewalling.
I just hope you get your problem sorted as I agree with Culzean, the obvious answers are seemingly being ignored.
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Given that those of the fair sex can be just as clued up as us blokes,
'Female engineer' is an oxymoron :-X (duck)
It is getting harder to get people who know cars in depth because fewer and fewer people actually have experience of working on them, and like most things today, if they cannot plug a laptop on to OBD and get the answer (or google it) they are stuck. 'Female Logic' (depending on your point of view) is also either an oxymoron or a description of a thought process that applies only to females and inscrutable to men..
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On the jet washing of brakes - was jet washing (the body of) my own car at the weekend and a neighbour started chatting. He works for a car manufacturer and, unprompted, said they've had a bulletin to keep jet washers completely away from the wheel area as they had an incident where a brake hose was cut and they determined it'd been done by a jet wash.
They use high pressure water to cut solid steel, IMHO high pressure washers have no place in car care.