Author Topic: Autonomous vehicles.  (Read 4397 times)

Jocko

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Re: Autonomous vehicles.
« Reply #75 on: May 15, 2018, 10:13:16 AM »
I am reminded of the woman in the States, about 50 years back, who bought a new Winnebago. It was the first vehicle with Cruise Control she had ever owned. She crashed it on the Freeway, and when the traffic cop asked her what happened she said, "I don't know. I switched the cruise control on, then went back to make a pot of coffee.".

richardfrost

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Re: Autonomous vehicles.
« Reply #76 on: May 16, 2018, 08:16:38 AM »
The only autonomous vehicles I will ever ride in are taxis and buses.

My Rav4 has adaptive cruise control, lane departure warning and some form of brake assist. These are wonderful driver aids but that is all they are.

The other day the brake assist kicked in when the car in front used engine braking and slowed hard without his brake lights coming on, I was distracted momentarily and the system kicked in before I did. I believe I would have stopped the car in time but it would have been a close thing.

ColinB

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Re: Autonomous vehicles.
« Reply #77 on: May 16, 2018, 10:52:17 AM »
The other day the brake assist kicked in when the car in front used engine braking and slowed hard without his brake lights coming on ...
Was the car in front maybe a Mk 3 Jazz with the driver using the "Intelligent" Speed Limiter ? It happened to me:
https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=8617.msg44161#msg44161

richardfrost

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Re: Autonomous vehicles.
« Reply #78 on: May 16, 2018, 11:02:53 AM »
The other day the brake assist kicked in when the car in front used engine braking and slowed hard without his brake lights coming on ...
Was the car in front maybe a Mk 3 Jazz with the driver using the "Intelligent" Speed Limiter ? It happened to me:
https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=8617.msg44161#msg44161
It was a van I think, or maybe an SUV. Was white anyway. Definitely not a Jazz.

Turned that feature off on my Toyota. There is a point in Halifax where my old HRV used to look at a 40 sign and read it as 120 ! Of course this is not a problem in my '05 Jazz, which I am whizzing about in today.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 11:05:03 AM by richardfrost »

culzean

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Re: Autonomous vehicles.
« Reply #79 on: May 28, 2018, 04:31:36 PM »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

Jocko

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Re: Autonomous vehicles.
« Reply #80 on: May 28, 2018, 07:12:07 PM »
Honda comes in at 16th and Tesla at 19th! Surprised to see GM in the top spot.

ColinB

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Re: Autonomous vehicles.
« Reply #81 on: June 12, 2018, 09:05:30 AM »
Autopilot ? Not quite !

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-44439523

In the video, presumably the Tesla's "Autopilot" can only keep the car in lane, so it can't follow the car ahead round the obstacle.

Jocko

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Re: Autonomous vehicles.
« Reply #82 on: June 12, 2018, 09:50:38 AM »
The Tesla Autopilot, Nissan ProPilot and the like only keep the car in lane and depend on clearly defined lane markings to do do. The Tesla Model X that killed its driver on the Freeway, recently, did so because the lane markings were not there. The issue with not stopping for a stationary object is also understandable. The car will follow a moving object, slow when it slows and stop when it stops. However, it will ignore stationary objects that it has always "seen" as stationary. Otherwise, how would it ever drive under a flyover, or pass a lamp post? The reason why the Tesla crashed into the stationary police car, again reported recently.
The problem isn't with the cars, it is with the numpties who drive them. All the appropriate manuals tell the driver they must keep control, watch where they are going. But who reads the manual?
I think, as the insurers say, cars should only say "assistance", and should not be described as autonomous until they can drive unaided by a human driver. In fact, it should be illegal to use "autonomous" in a car advert or brochure until such time as they can drive themselves.
Manufacturers are not doing the cause of Fully Autonomous vehicles any good by their approach which is giving the public the impression that the technology doesn't work. The technology does work, for what it is designed to do. It is just that some drivers think (or more likely don't think) it can do better than what it is designed for.

ColinB

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Re: Autonomous vehicles.
« Reply #83 on: June 12, 2018, 10:49:48 AM »
No matter how you spin it or blame numpty users, a vehicle marketed with a system called “Autopilot” that cannot avoid a stationary object stopped in front of it is not fit for purpose.

Jocko

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Re: Autonomous vehicles.
« Reply #84 on: June 12, 2018, 11:20:42 AM »
The name is not fit for purpose, not the vehicle!

ColinB

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Re: Autonomous vehicles.
« Reply #85 on: June 12, 2018, 01:17:17 PM »
The name is not fit for purpose, not the vehicle!

No, I meant the vehicle.

You’re right that the name is misleading and that may be contributing to avoidable incidents. But irrespective of what the system is called and how much the owner understands about it, if a system that is supposed to aid the driver cannot avoid a stationary object then that system - and the car it is part of - is not fit for purpose. Seems to me that Autopilot actually increases driver workload because he has to monitor the system as well as the road, how can that be sensible ? If the driver has to constantly consider whether Autopilot is getting him into trouble, then why bother with it, why not just drive the car ?

Jocko

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Re: Autonomous vehicles.
« Reply #86 on: June 12, 2018, 02:09:37 PM »
Whatever. The driver, in my opinion, has no more to do than a driver without Autopilot. If it is too much for him, he doesn't have to switch it on!

culzean

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Re: Autonomous vehicles.
« Reply #87 on: June 12, 2018, 07:02:31 PM »
However, it will ignore stationary objects that it has always "seen" as stationary. Otherwise, how would it ever drive under a flyover, or pass a lamp post? The reason why the Tesla crashed into the stationary police car, again reported recently.

Imagine a human driver ignoring 'stationary objects' - The fire truck was stationary, the Police car was stationary,  but they were vehicles and were on the carriageway so would not appear on a digital map as something that 'has always been stationary' ( I know Tesla does not use digital mapping so how the hell does it know if something is supposed to be stationary or not) - in fact in the article I read the Tesla 'sped' up as it approached the Fire truck (as it resumed its set speed). just like the Uber car did not slow down as it approached the woman pushing her bike across the road.  The hype of 'autonomous cars' has lost a bit of its shine recently as the cold facts of the limitations of technology have been exposed and it has dawned on people that replacing humans ain't gonna be as easy as silicon valley thinks, getting a piece of technology to do something in a nice controlled environment is one thing,  getting it to do the same out in the real world environment with its bad roads and unpredictability is quite another.

There are lies, damn lies, statistics and also what comes out of Musks mouth.

https://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In-Gear/2016/1014/How-safe-is-Tesla-Autopilot-A-look-at-the-statistics

Article is a few years old,  but it just shows how things can get 'twisted to suit'.  Tesla would love to be able to claim the '1 fatality every 100 million miles' that humans achieve (and that figure includes pedestrians and all other road vehicles including bicycles, motorbikes. HGV, buses etc. etc.).
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 07:46:44 PM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

Jocko

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Re: Autonomous vehicles.
« Reply #88 on: June 12, 2018, 09:33:11 PM »
I know Tesla does not use digital mapping so how the hell does it know if something is supposed to be stationary or not
Quite simple. When it first "sights" the object it logs its position. If the car is travelling at 60 mph and the object is 88 ft closer after 1 second, it computes that it is stationary. If it is 44 ft closer, it computes that it is travelling at 30 mph. Obviously it is much more maths than my example, but the computer does that in milliseconds.
Compared with an autonomous vehicle the Tesla is as sophisticated as a Model T is to your current car.
This demonstration of Nissan's test vehicle shows how far true autonomous vehicles have progressed, and even that is a long way from being "driverless".

The Teslas involved in the accidents were doing what they were designed to do. They are just not designed for the driver not to maintain overriding control.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 09:35:45 PM by Jocko »

culzean

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Re: Autonomous vehicles.
« Reply #89 on: June 12, 2018, 09:59:13 PM »
Surely if something is stationary and positioned on the cars trajectory the bl00dy car should stop, you simply cannot have a system that ignores stationary objects,  let's face it computers just do not understand the world the way we do, and they will never be able to communicate properly because they do not have eyebrows........   
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

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