Author Topic: Charging issues--  (Read 10482 times)

John A

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Re: Charging issues--
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2018, 07:50:56 AM »
Problematic earths can give weird symptoms. In this case I suspect that the resistance through the light bulb is less than through the earth path when the electrical load is reduced.

culzean

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Re: Charging issues--
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2018, 08:40:05 AM »
Problematic earths can give weird symptoms. In this case I suspect that the resistance through the light bulb is less than through the earth path when the electrical load is reduced.

Have a look at this thread,  as soon as I get a car I fit a braided earth cable direct from battery to engine block,  I do not trust the flimsy earth connections that car makers use,  which are open to corrosion.   Dodgy earths cause more than enough problems on vehicles, anyone remember brake lights that used to flash when indicators were operated, and indicators coming on with brake lights etc. etc.

https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=9612.msg53584#msg53584

there are three pages in the attached PDF in this link
« Last Edit: June 04, 2018, 08:59:01 AM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

nalimugmug

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Re: Charging issues--
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2018, 11:34:32 AM »


Hi again,

Many thanks to those that have chimed in with my issue.

Yesterday I checked and rechecked that all the earth points were tight, which they were, today I fitted an earth lead from the battery neg to the engine block as was suggested.

Went up the road- light came on.

Its not the end of the world that I have to switch on something for the light to go out, the less intrusive item to energise is the rear window heater.


The saga continues.
 

Jocko

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Re: Charging issues--
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2018, 01:15:21 PM »
Seems like it may be a good time to have a chat to an Auto Electrician. Someone who earns a living from working on these sort of problems. I had an issue with the air bag warning light on my Volvo. I went to a local guy who knew immediately what the problem was. He repaired it within the day and the price was most reasonable (even as an OAP). It was the connector to one of the front impact sensors for the static restraint system, a common fault, he told me, though Google hadn't been much help to me.

culzean

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Re: Charging issues--
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2018, 02:52:15 PM »


Hi again,

Many thanks to those that have chimed in with my issue.

Yesterday I checked and rechecked that all the earth points were tight, which they were, today I fitted an earth lead from the battery neg to the engine block as was suggested.

Went up the road- light came on.

Its not the end of the world that I have to switch on something for the light to go out, the less intrusive item to energise is the rear window heater.


The saga continues.

The extra braid to engine is good to have anyway IMHO.

There are a few sensors involved in charging voltage including ambient temperature,  maybe engine temp etc. which feed back to ECU.  Origina idea was to limit charging voltage at very low or high temps to prevent battery damage and extend battery life,  but as usual when things get too complicated they can be a mare to fix.   

Found this article (USA) that kind of explains how complicated a modern battery charging system can be.... http://opensiuc.lib.siu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1011&context=auto_pres

Maybe time to have a look at OBD to see if any sensor faults logged. Is your temperature readout on dash showing correct temperature ?
« Last Edit: June 04, 2018, 06:03:58 PM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

nalimugmug

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Re: Charging issues--
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2018, 06:04:51 PM »
Just ordered an OBD tool.

Will let you know what it finds.

Bob

nalimugmug

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Re: Charging issues--
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2018, 05:28:29 AM »
Culzean,

Forgot to thank you for this.

Found this article (USA) that kind of explains how complicated a modern battery charging system can be.... http://opensiuc.lib.siu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1011&context=auto_pres.

Interesting read

Bob

MikeG1944

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Re: Charging issues--
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2018, 10:02:07 AM »
Yes an interesting read.

Problem is the more electronics you design into a car to get that extra 1mpg the more there is to go wrong. :(

Is anyone else on here, like me, old enough to remember the only electronics under the bonnet was a Battery, alternator, starter motor, coil, distributor and 4 spark plugs? You could diagnose a problem in 5 minutes LOL!

Jocko

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Re: Charging issues--
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2018, 10:29:30 AM »
I go back even before alternators, back to the days of the old generator.


MikeG1944

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Re: Charging issues--
« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2018, 10:59:29 AM »
Just about remember those Jocko; not so efficient were they; but I guess did the job. :)

sparky Paul

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Re: Charging issues--
« Reply #25 on: June 05, 2018, 06:08:11 PM »
I go back even before alternators, back to the days of the old generator.

Not only do I remember them, I was working on one a while ago, on a 1956 Land Rover - refurbishing and setting up the old Lucas control box. Owner thought the original dynamo charging system was dead forever, but it's now back in regular use and charging like a good'un.

nalimugmug

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Re: Charging issues--
« Reply #26 on: June 07, 2018, 09:44:24 AM »
Have just plugged in OBD reader-

One code shown- P0304-Cylinder 4 misfire detected.

Cleared this code, drove up the road, as usual battery charge light came on, returned home and checked for codes again- all clear.

Having Googled the above code I cant see anything there that has anything to do with the charging system.

The plot thickens!

seasidesoulish

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Re: Charging issues--
« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2019, 10:37:04 AM »
I know this thread is old but I have noticed the same problem with my 2003 jazz.
My dash light does not come on but charge voltage varies as described with the added feature that, when it drops to 12.3v, any throttle input, when driving with no lights/accessories on, keeps charge voltage to 12.3v but as soon as there is no throttle input allows 14.4v.
Could a bad TPS cause this?

More importantly, is there an easy way to bypass the charge system controller to force continuous 14.4v to the battery?



culzean

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Re: Charging issues--
« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2019, 12:09:40 PM »
I know this thread is old but I have noticed the same problem with my 2003 jazz.
My dash light does not come on but charge voltage varies as described with the added feature that, when it drops to 12.3v, any throttle input, when driving with no lights/accessories on, keeps charge voltage to 12.3v but as soon as there is no throttle input allows 14.4v.
Could a bad TPS cause this?

More importantly, is there an easy way to bypass the charge system controller to force continuous 14.4v to the battery?

Try this thread as well

https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=11400.msg75519#msg75519

You do not really want to keep charge voltage at 14.4v as this could damage battery...  Try turning lights, heated screen, mirrors on and other loads on and see if this alters the alternator output voltage..
« Last Edit: December 14, 2019, 12:11:47 PM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

guest4871

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Re: Charging issues
« Reply #29 on: March 29, 2020, 09:59:20 PM »
Bearing in mind many cars will either be sitting idle at this time, or will only be used for relatively short journeys, I think it may be very valuable to be aware of the way a Jazz battery is charged by the alternator.

It seems that to charge the battery, if you are going on only short journeys, the car needs to be run with either the headlights or the heated rear window on!

Otherwise, the alternator will not charge the battery and after successive short journeys there is major risk of a flat battery.

Also, if the car is not used for a couple of weeks and/ or is then used for only short journeys the battery will go flat through lack of charge from the alternator.

So it seems best to use the car regularly with the head lights or heated rear window on (i.e. a high current drain) unless you can use a smart charger on the car whilst it is parked up.

Otherwise in a couple of weeks or so there will be a lot of flat batteries around.

Sounds counter intuitive.

Jocko's post below sets out the principle.

Perhaps someone can explain this better than I have.

Found this interesting post:

Honda has a dual-mode charging system for US models.  When the headlights are
on, or any other combination of things that increases the amp draw through
the system to a certain point, the computer tells the alernator to put out
14.4V, or thereabouts.  But at all other times the alternator puts out about
12.3V.  This is done to increase gas mileage.

At my last oil change (2012 Civic), the dealer checked out everything,
including the battery.  They said the battery was ok, but was only 57%
charged.  It seems to me that this is a direct result of the charging
algorithm.  Even if the battery was fully charged, which would be a resting
voltage of just under 12.7V, if the alternator is told to output only 12.3V,
then the battery will be providing all the needed current until it is
discharged down to that level, which should happen fairly quickly.

My understanding is that lead-acid batteries don't do well being partially
charged all the time, not to mention not having as many cranking amps
available as you might need.  In fact, I replaced the original battery at
just under three years.  Yet Honda has been doing this dual-mode thing
literally for decades.  So perhaps I'm wrong about the effect of this system
on battery life.

The odd thing is - if you want the car to charge the battery, you DO NOT want
to shut off the lights, the fan, the radio, etc., because that will just
lower the alternator voltage to 12.3V, which won't charge the battery at all.
Instead, you want to turn on the headlights - because that will cause the
alternator to put out 14.4V, which WILL charge the battery.  Can you spell
counterintuitive?

So one option is just to get a charger, and charge the battery overnight
maybe once a week.  But another alternative is to modify the current-sensing
circuit so the computer thinks the lights are on even when they aren't, so
the alternator will stay at 14.4V all time - just like every other car in the
world does. But before going down that road, I need to be sure I understand
what, if anything, this Honda system is doing to the battery because the
modification, which is called the ELD bypass, is a real bear for my model
car.

And in case you were wondering, it appears that this Honda system doesn't
take into account at all the current charge state of the battery.

Well, I would appreciate some expert opinion on the effects of having the
battery be partially charged all the time.  I've read several places online
that this promotes sulfation.  But it's not clear.  It's also not clear
whether a weekly full charge would undo the sulfation.


Not all appropriate, but may explain some battery issues some Jazz owners report.

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