Author Topic: Charging issues--  (Read 1062 times)

nalimugmug

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Charging issues--
« on: May 30, 2018, 09:19:21 PM »
Hi,

My wifes Jazz 2007, 137000 miles started playing up a few weeks ago, the red charging light would come on/off with a will of its own, finally the car wouldn't start as the battery was low..

Charged the battery up with a bench charger and the car started OK, finally the charging light stayed on permanently, no amount of revving would put the light out, where as before it would put the light out..  I purchased a new alternator and fitted that this afternoon.

Started the car up and saw that the red charging light  instantly went out- sorted, or so I thought! Took the car for a short trip up the road and again the charging light came on, returned home, checked the obvious- terminal clamps, drive belt tension- alls OK there. I then put in a brand new battery- started the car, light went out- up the road light back on again.

Alternator is giving in excess of 14 volts with the light out, so the alternator seems to be fine, however I noticed that if the revs drop down to 2000 ish the light will come on, increase the revs to 2500 ish and the light goes out.

Interesting this next bit- with my revs down around the 2000 mark with the light on if I switch on main beam the light goes off, if I then switch off the main beam the light will come on.

Any body any good at Mensa puzzles?

Thanks

Bob

culzean

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Re: Charging issues--
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2018, 09:37:13 PM »
Modern charging systems are pretty complicated* and can raise and lower charging voltage in response to battery condition and load on the system, but having said that they should not put the fault light on because the voltage is lowered. Are the connection lugs between battery cables and bodywork corroded ? There is a control system that alters the voltage to alternator rotor via slip rings to affect output voltage, I don't know where it lives, but will look at our Haynes manual to see where it is.

*the Ford system will not work properly unless you fit an silver calcium or AGM (absorbed glass mat) battery, many owners have had problems when garage fitted a normal flooded electrolyte battery.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2018, 10:55:02 AM by culzean »
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nalimugmug

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Re: Charging issues--
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2018, 09:52:35 PM »
Hi Culzean,

Thanks for your reply.

You wouldn't be referring to this item would you?

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GENUINE-HONDA-ELD-ELECTRONIC-LOAD-DETECTOR-CIVIC-CRV-JAZZ-38255-S5A-003-/202068487124

Thanks

culzean

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Re: Charging issues--
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2018, 08:57:02 AM »
Haynes refers to a 'electrical load  detect module  (ELD)' and then goes on to say that ultimately everything feeds back to ECM (engine control module) which has the final say over charge voltage.  It recommends that you switch all heated mirrors, screens, aircon,  fan, headlights etc to load up the system and make sure that alternator maintains a voltage in high 13's low 14's volts at battery terminals (13.8 to 14.5 or so).  May be an intermittent or corroded connection or broken wire on ELD causing problem,  of maybe it has failed. They say ELD / ECM (ECU) alters charging voltage depending upon outside temperature, engine coolant temp, whether aircon is turned on etc. etc.


looks like the ELD lives in fusebox by the battery.  I guess its a solid state 'hall effect' sensor as there does not seem to be any electrical connection between bussbar and module. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hall_effect_sensor

« Last Edit: May 31, 2018, 09:31:47 AM by culzean »
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Jocko

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Re: Charging issues--
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2018, 09:49:12 AM »
I guess its a solid state 'hall effect' sensor as there does not seem to be any electrical connection between bussbar and module.
The eBay link photograph shows it as having an electrical connector.

culzean

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Re: Charging issues--
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2018, 10:11:02 AM »
I guess its a solid state 'hall effect' sensor as there does not seem to be any electrical connection between bussbar and module.
The eBay link photograph shows it as having an electrical connector.


It needs an electrical connector to send signal to ECM / ECU but if the unit was picking up a voltage drop proportional to current flow directly from bussbar resistance you would have wires directly connected to bussbar,  by using solid state non-contact magnetic field sensing hall effect sensing you dispense with the need to have a resistance in the circuit  which would cause voltage drop and create other problems.

The magnetic field sensor (the more current flowing the stronger the magnetic field around the bussbar) sits in the plastic moulding as close to bussbar as possible,  those connector pins will be for the sensor output signal - they work on very low voltage normally so check and clean the ones on your existing ELD before swapping it out.

Puling the fuses and bussbar out (which is main connection from battery to car) will take power off the whole system (same as removing battery),  so make sure you have radio code etc.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2018, 10:18:28 AM by culzean »
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Jocko

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Re: Charging issues--
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2018, 10:35:42 AM »
Found this interesting post:

Honda has a dual-mode charging system for US models.  When the headlights are
on, or any other combination of things that increases the amp draw through
the system to a certain point, the computer tells the alernator to put out
14.4V, or thereabouts.  But at all other times the alternator puts out about
12.3V.  This is done to increase gas mileage.

At my last oil change (2012 Civic), the dealer checked out everything,
including the battery.  They said the battery was ok, but was only 57%
charged.  It seems to me that this is a direct result of the charging
algorithm.  Even if the battery was fully charged, which would be a resting
voltage of just under 12.7V, if the alternator is told to output only 12.3V,
then the battery will be providing all the needed current until it is
discharged down to that level, which should happen fairly quickly.

My understanding is that lead-acid batteries don't do well being partially
charged all the time, not to mention not having as many cranking amps
available as you might need.  In fact, I replaced the original battery at
just under three years.  Yet Honda has been doing this dual-mode thing
literally for decades.  So perhaps I'm wrong about the effect of this system
on battery life.

The odd thing is - if you want the car to charge the battery, you DO NOT want
to shut off the lights, the fan, the radio, etc., because that will just
lower the alternator voltage to 12.3V, which won't charge the battery at all.
Instead, you want to turn on the headlights - because that will cause the
alternator to put out 14.4V, which WILL charge the battery.  Can you spell
counterintuitive?

So one option is just to get a charger, and charge the battery overnight
maybe once a week.  But another alternative is to modify the current-sensing
circuit so the computer thinks the lights are on even when they aren't, so
the alternator will stay at 14.4V all time - just like every other car in the
world does. But before going down that road, I need to be sure I understand
what, if anything, this Honda system is doing to the battery because the
modification, which is called the ELD bypass, is a real bear for my model
car.

And in case you were wondering, it appears that this Honda system doesn't
take into account at all the current charge state of the battery.

Well, I would appreciate some expert opinion on the effects of having the
battery be partially charged all the time.  I've read several places online
that this promotes sulfation.  But it's not clear.  It's also not clear
whether a weekly full charge would undo the sulfation.


Not all appropriate, but may explain some battery issues some Jazz owners report.

culzean

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Re: Charging issues--
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2018, 10:48:15 AM »
Interesting article,  all to save a few fractions of an MPG. This system is not only a Honda thing though,    the Ford 'smart charge' system will only work properly with an silver calcium or AGM battery (as many owners have found out when a garage fits a normal battery and they have problems with battery getting flat),  which are more rugged and more tolerant of being partly charged as they resist sulphation.   Ford say they do it to protect battery from damaging charging under the wrong conditions of temperature (when battery too hot or cold).

https://www.yuasa.co.uk/info/technical/silver-calcium-batteries/



I always use AGM on motorbikes as they have higher cranking amps,  resist vibration and have very, very low self-discharge when bike not used  and will resist suphation if they are allowed to get down to a low state of charge.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2018, 03:45:54 PM by culzean »
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Pine

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Re: Charging issues--
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2018, 07:40:07 PM »
I have a Ford Fiesta and usually trickle charge the battery once a week. I always measure the battery voltage before I start charging and I have never seen it above 12.5v.  I have read that by keeping the battery 80% charged helps to prolong battery life so that may explain why it is never fully charged.  Do a search for Battery Management System and you may get more information on this.

Kenneve

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Re: Charging issues--
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2018, 08:29:18 PM »
Re Jocko's article on the charging characteristics of the US versions and the need to switch on the headlights in order to force the system into charge mode.
What happens when we use LED headlights with their greatly reduced current load?
Will the system still function?

nalimugmug

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Re: Charging issues--
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2018, 09:20:23 PM »
Hi,

Thanks to all of you for your input regarding my issue.

I'm pretty sure its an ELD problem, however, im reluctant to fork out 45 for a new part, then fit it and find there is no difference.

Im now on a quest to trawl the breakers yards for a used part and take it from there, ill keep you updated on what happens.

In the meantime the car is being used with the blower on continuously and the battery light remains off.

Some more info here about ELDs.


http://www.gonzostoolbox.com/KnowledgeFolder/HondaELD.html


Thanks again

culzean

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Re: Charging issues--
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2018, 09:51:06 PM »
Re Jocko's article on the charging characteristics of the US versions and the need to switch on the headlights in order to force the system into charge mode.
What happens when we use LED headlights with their greatly reduced current load?
Will the system still function?

We have LED bulbs in both Civic and Jazz Mk2,  no problem with keeping battery charged - in fact sometimes I connect my charger up to check and it switches from charge to trickle in less than 5 minutes. 
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

nalimugmug

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Re: Charging issues--
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2018, 11:18:22 PM »
Hi,

As promised an update- just back from the pub -so excuse a few typos.

Sent out about half a dozen asks to various breakers, received two finds.

 160 inc postage

 60 inc postage

 Cheerio to both , so phoned my local scrapyard, 5, guaranteed to the gate.

Returned home to fit the replacement ELD.

When I removed the item from the breakers car there was about an inch or so of wiring beneath the connecting plug which came up above the fuse box to enable me to push in a clip to allow the ELD to disconnect from the wiring loom connector.

When I removed the original item from my car to install the replacement unit the connector remained well buried down in the fuse box, try with lots of swear words  it wasn't possible to get the connector proud enough to be able to connect the new item.

I then drilled a  hole down through the fuse box  directly beneath the connector to enable me to support the connector from below and then push down to enable the ELD to connect to the connecter. Not pretty but it worked.

Now for the results-

Went up the road- light came on again- so it's not the ELD

To repeat my findings from before, switch something on which loads the system, aircon-blower-headlights, the light remains off.

---
Pubs closed now-off to the fridge-

Any ideas?

Thanks

Bob

« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 06:38:23 AM by nalimugmug »

sparky Paul

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Re: Charging issues--
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2018, 10:54:56 AM »
It's a odd one.

I assume you have checked all the basics, particularly that the battery and engine to chassis earth straps are clean and secure? They can cause some odd faults with these adaptive charging systems.

Jocko

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Re: Charging issues--
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2018, 11:08:51 AM »
I assume you have checked all the basics, particularly that the battery and engine to chassis earth straps are clean and secure?
That would be my line of thinking too. Connect a jump lead from the battery negative to the engine metal work and see what effect that has.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2018, 11:10:27 AM by Jocko »

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