Author Topic: Tyres - Summer and Winter rotation or all-weather? Or no changes at all??  (Read 3633 times)

michaelC

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Dear all, Following on my earlier post about needing a replacement tyre, and receiving some very helpful posts from fellow members, I did some research on different tyres, and wondered what you lovely people did.  Also hope that my findings and posts shared by others might help those who are curious about this too.

So it looks like the tyres I have are standard "Summer" tyres, that have asymmetric treads to provide as much ground contact as possible to give excellent dry grip, while threads push rain water away for wet grip too.
What they aren't good at, is handling snow or ice, and that comes from tyres with a different tread pattern. 
These "Winter" tyres have a different tread, like a fishbone design with equal symmetric pattern on the left and right of the tyre's centre.  There are also lots of micro treads called "Sipes" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siping_(rubber) that help improve traction on wet/icy/snowy conditions.  The tyre compound that they're made up of also contain more silicon, which does not get hard like Rubber in cold weather.  That helps keep the tyres flexible and supple, so that it can grip better with the road. 

Learnt a lot from the Youtube reviews from TyreReviews.co.uk, such as here for Winter tyres: http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/9-of-the-best-winter-tyres-for-2018.htm

My questions to the floor:  Given the experiences from the 2017 "Beast From The East", and an expected repeat of that in the coming weeks/months, have you decided to invest in any Winter Tyres, or changed to all-weather tyres?  What did you go for, and why?  I guess having some idea of where you're located in UK helps give some context, but I value your internet privacy and therefore won't ask for it.  :). Personally, I'm in North West London, so won't be as challenged as folks up in the North. 

As I'll need to use the car for the school runs, I'm 80% leaning towards getting all-weather tyres (Bridgestone Weather Control A005, Michelin CrossClimate+ or Continental AllSeasonContact), and 20% going full on Winter tyres (Continental WinterContact TS860, Michelin Alpin 5).  Not sure how I'll store the summer ones at that point - one bridge at a time!

The only bad thing is: While you might be able to stop earlier and avoid crashing into someone, will the person behind you be able to stop in time and avoid crashing into you???   :o

123Drive!

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Re: Tyres - Summer and Winter rotation or all-weather? Or no changes at all??
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2018, 11:28:54 PM »
Hi Michael. I brought a set of Winter tyres for my 09 Jazz. Unfortunately, didn't get any snow for the three years. I run a driving school and was hoping that winter tyres means I don't have to cancel so many lessons. But the changing of winter and summer tyres increase the cost so I brought a set of all seasons Nexen N'Priz 4S for the Jazz and then a Michelin CrossClimate for my manual Ibiza. The real test came during February this year. The Nexen seems good on the Jazz. The Michelin was good until I went up a slop with ice and it didn't grip so well.

I m now using Maxxis AP2 all seasons as they are good value and offers good warranty. Obviously I haven't tried them on snow yet but I guess they will be better than summer tyres in winter. During this hot summer, the Maxxis seems to cope well. I use UK tyres in Mill Hill. But I did get a set on eBay once for my garage to fit. This may be cheaper alternative.

I think in London, all seasons seems to be most suitable, rather than changing winter and summer tyres every 6 months, especially in view of the higher than average temperature for this winter.

John A

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Re: Tyres - Summer and Winter rotation or all-weather? Or no changes at all??
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2018, 08:23:56 AM »
I went for all season, as up in Aberdeen we rarely get a summer. So you can all thank me for this summers weather  ;D

Got the 16inch alloy wheels so went for these http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Tyre/Vredestein/Quatrac-5.htm

Used to do the swap between summer and winter tyres, but a faff and invariably after taking off the winter tyres, it would be below 7 degrees C for a week or so  :'( Rarely vice-versa!

madasafish

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Re: Tyres - Summer and Winter rotation or all-weather? Or no changes at all??
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2018, 09:28:45 AM »
I live in Staffordshire Moorlands - edge of Peak District.
Bought replacement tyres at 30k miles: Michelin Cross Climate: in March (175/65/15) .

Very good in mud (beekeeping roads).. No snow yet.. Quiet/comfortable .. about 1mpg less.

michaelC

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Re: Tyres - Summer and Winter rotation or all-weather? Or no changes at all??
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2018, 07:15:19 PM »
OK, reporting back some with results and thoughts for reference in the future....

Took the car to Kwik Fit because they were the closest to an underground station en route, and opened from 8:30am onwards.
Left key with them and they said they would call me once they did check.
3:45pm and still not heard anything from them, so I gave a call.  They said that they couldn't see any punctures, and only then asked me for more details.
Note1 : Always call them earlier to check in! Could have returned to them after work only to find they did nothing!  :o
They then agreed to lift up the car again and specifically check the valve, and call back in 15mins.  They did call, confirming a leak and they could try to repair the leak.  Cool. Quoted £27 to do this, to which I agreed. 
A few minutes later, they called again.  They took the tyre off and found a small screw INSIDE which had damaged the inner tyre.  They asked if I had driven it around a lot with a flat tyre.  I confirmed yes, and they concluded that it would therefore be beyond repair, and need a replacement.
Note2 : Always try to check into a garage ASAP if you spot a flat tyre - repair might be possible, but not after 20miles driving to a beautiful park in Surrey and back again!
So I then asked them what options I had for tyre replacements.  Having done some research, I was quite confident I knew what I wanted and the prices to expect.  8) 
Me: "So what options do I have?" expecting them to introduce all-weather or Winter tyres
Kwik Fit: Well, the only thing in stock that will fit is the Bridgestone ER370 for £120."
Me:  :o. "Nothing else?  What about the Michelin CrossClimate tyres by the door?"
KF: "They're not the right size for your car.  And you'd need to order in advance for those to be replaced four at once."
Me:  "Oh.  And how much do those cost?"
KF: "£120 including fitting.  Same price as the Bridgestones."
Me: Sigh....  "OK, can't do anything about all-weather tyres now. Let's just get that tyre replaced with the Bridgestone one."
Note 3: Always do your research on contingencies IF they need to do a replacement, would that have your ideal tyre in stock?  Are you prepared to replace just one, or several at a time?

Note 4: The costs that I've seen on Tyrereviews.co.uk are only £70.  But don't forget that there are additional fees eg £15 fitting, as well as in-stock mark ups for these garages, which in my case turned out to be £35.  Are you prepared to pay that extra for immediate access?  Or are you willing to take a chance and DIY it or run on flat tyres until you're at a cheaper garage?

Note 5: If you still sticking with Kwik-Fit, you could save £15 fitting fee by ordering it online.

So, in the end, I now have a Summer tyre replaced with another summer tyre.  No change to all-weathers which I was hoping, because the garage had already ripped off my broken tyre and declared it totally unfit for re-use.  If I had stood fast with NOT replacing it and decide later, then I might still be able to decide how to replace... however, Kwik Fit scared me somewhat by saying that my tyre might blow out because the tyre's damaged, and that would make the care lose control.  Not something I want to experience in cold rainy weather!!

So what will I do about the forthcoming snowy weather predicted?  I had previously ordered from Amazon.co.uk some "snow socks" that wrap around the front tyres (because that's where car's efforts are) and they will help for temporary situations.  I would have preferred to install all-weather tyres, but maybe next season.... and prepare it in advance!!!
« Last Edit: November 19, 2018, 07:16:55 PM by MichaelC »

culzean

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Re: Tyres - Summer and Winter rotation or all-weather? Or no changes at all??
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2018, 07:44:35 PM »
Leaving your car in the tender care of cowboys like quikfit is asking for a big story about your car needing new tyres all round as well as your brake pads all need replacing. However if you did drive on a flat tyre the sidewall will be ruined, but you don't really know what they found as they aim to make max profit out of each customer - especially women.  Personally I use ATS because I have found them pretty honest and they have fixed a couple of punctures at no cost - amazing.

I would check if you car has ABS based TPMS or pressure sensors in the wheels ( Honda is normally ABS but they fitted sensors in the wheels for one year in 2015). If you have pressure sensors get all season and keep same wheels on all year, otherwise twice a year you will have to get sensors reprogrammed to ECU. If you have ABS based TPMS you are at liberty to get steel rims with winter tyres on and save your alloys from ravages of winter. Winter tyres are much better than all season in snow - we have Nokian WRD3 and live in hilly Shropshire and when the beast from the east hit we were out and about an often only saw land rovers and tractors, we also saw some 4x4 without winter tyres ( they were the ones sitting there with wheels rotating but going nowhere). Try mytyres.co.uk for wheel and tyre packages.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2018, 07:47:39 PM by culzean »
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smilertoo

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Re: Tyres - Summer and Winter rotation or all-weather? Or no changes at all??
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2018, 09:04:59 PM »
I put crossclimate+ tyres on mine.

123Drive!

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Re: Tyres - Summer and Winter rotation or all-weather? Or no changes at all??
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2018, 09:07:01 PM »
Oh no, Michael! Kwikfit are the worst. Three yrs ago I took my Ibiza to have a CrossClimate fitted as an emergency. They bend the back plate and when the car was moving, it made this horrible sound! What chance do you have when Kwikfit can't fit a tyre probably- it's like McDonald's making a bad Big Mac! Still I complained on Twitter and got £40 off.

I would invest a full size steel spare wheel from eBay. So if your tyre is punctured, you don't have to rush and fit what's available. The option you have now it's probably best to buy a set of good quality used winter tyres from eBay and then use them for this winter. They will definitely work better than the socks. (I brought a few used All Season tyres for my spare wheel for £10 with no repairs and 7mm thread.) And if one day your summer tyres need replacing, you can try the all seasons and sell the winter tyres back on eBay!

MicktheMonster

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Re: Tyres - Summer and Winter rotation or all-weather? Or no changes at all??
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2018, 11:15:50 PM »
I had a bit of an issue in a kwikfit branch about 12 years ago, I had a vectra tyre with a slow punctures that couldn't be repaired, fair enough, they then quoted me £160 for a michelin, only thing they had in stock that size, I pointed out that I'd  paid  £85 elsewhere for firestones, they couldn't possibly do that etc. By the time I got my hand on the door handle to leave they had magically found one in stock! Amazing! Luckily I had a full size spare allowing me to leave if they didn't come up with a deal for me, sometimes they have you over a barrel though! I just put it down to an unscrupulous branch manager and never used that particular branch again, I've had good deals and service at other branches.

Sounds like your tyre did need changing anyway, so at least it's now safe and sorted.

Defender

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Re: Tyres - Summer and Winter rotation or all-weather? Or no changes at all??
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2018, 08:06:13 PM »
I swapped over from the 16" summer set to 15" winter set about ten days ago, just before we had a cold spell, a few days later my drive to work started out with a temperature of -4 c.
The 15" winter set are noticeably noisier than the summer set, but with a bit softer ride due to the taller side wall,  I can live with the noise as the extra grip is welcome when temperature drop and the the road surface gets slippery.
 
2011 1.4 EX CVT in Metalic Mushroom (Urban Titanium).

culzean

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Re: Tyres - Summer and Winter rotation or all-weather? Or no changes at all??
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2018, 08:30:49 PM »
I swapped over from the 16" summer set to 15" winter set about ten days ago, just before we had a cold spell, a few days later my drive to work started out with a temperature of -4 c.
The 15" winter set are noticeably noisier than the summer set, but with a bit softer ride due to the taller side wall,  I can live with the noise as the extra grip is welcome when temperature drop and the the road surface gets slippery.

What winter tyres do you have ? My wife's Nokian WRD3 are actually no noisier than her summer tyres, and as you say the ride is noticeably softer ( even though her Jazz is fitted with 15" alloys and 175/65R15 summer tyres ) - we ditched the diamond cut 16" alloys because of harsh ride, which she only properly noticed when I first fitted her winter tyres, she wanted to leave winters on all year round ).
« Last Edit: November 27, 2018, 08:33:22 PM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

Defender

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Re: Tyres - Summer and Winter rotation or all-weather? Or no changes at all??
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2018, 09:05:06 PM »
I swapped over from the 16" summer set to 15" winter set about ten days ago, just before we had a cold spell, a few days later my drive to work started out with a temperature of -4 c.
The 15" winter set are noticeably noisier than the summer set, but with a bit softer ride due to the taller side wall,  I can live with the noise as the extra grip is welcome when temperature drop and the the road surface gets slippery.

What winter tyres do you have ? My wife's Nokian WRD3 are actually no noisier than her summer tyres, and as you say the ride is noticeably softer ( even though her Jazz is fitted with 15" alloys and 175/65R15 summer tyres ) - we ditched the diamond cut 16" alloys because of harsh ride, which she only properly noticed when I first fitted her winter tyres, she wanted to leave winters on all year round ).
Goodyear Vector 5+ on the front, Cooper WM-SA2+ on the rear, I had Coopers on the front too, but a pothole put a rather large bulge in the sidewall of the N/S/F early this year and due to the wear on the remaining front Cooper, I deemed both needing replacement, I did keep the good Cooper as a back up.
They aren't badly noisy, but it is noticeable, but nothing like the Goodyear Wrangler All Terrain tyres on my 4x4!
I ran winter tyres all year in 2012 when it was really wet IIRC, that was on my 2006 MINI Cooper, they were great at shifting water, particularly standing water from puddles etc., they were Goodyear UltraGrips.
2011 1.4 EX CVT in Metalic Mushroom (Urban Titanium).

Rory

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Re: Tyres - Summer and Winter rotation or all-weather? Or no changes at all??
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2018, 11:40:00 AM »
We drove our first mk2 through the bad winters of 2009/10 and 10/11 on 16" Dunlop SP2030 tyres with no issues whatsoever - however they are a very soft tyre and didn't last long.

Then got a set of 15" wheels and put full winter Michelin Alpin's on.  They look like normal tyres and work fine in all conditions so we left them on year round.  They last well too and when they did eventually wear out we replaced with same.

I think now all-seasons are more generally available I'd go for them.  Have a set of Michelin Cross-Climate's on daughter's Golf and they worked fine, and again are lasting well.  I run my Merc C Class estate on all-seasons too - very reassuring in streaming wet conditions.

culzean

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Re: Tyres - Summer and Winter rotation or all-weather? Or no changes at all??
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2018, 01:57:23 PM »
  I run my Merc C Class estate on all-seasons too - very reassuring in streaming wet conditions.

From the tests I have read summer tyres with their deep circumferential  grooves are better than all season and winter tyres at clearing water and resisting aquaplaning. All season and winter tend to have more complicated tread patterns with more grooves across the tread, which are better in mud and snow, but not water, especially as the speed rises..

All season are not as good in summer as summer tyres and neither are they as good in winter as winter tyres, and your expensive alloys suffer in the winter more than steel rims. The only time I would consider A/S is if the car had pressure sensors that needed reprogramming twice a year, plus the added cost of the extra sensors for extra wheels.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2018, 02:07:26 PM by culzean »
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Rory

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Re: Tyres - Summer and Winter rotation or all-weather? Or no changes at all??
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2018, 11:15:04 PM »
From the tests I have read summer tyres with their deep circumferential  grooves are better than all season and winter tyres at clearing water and resisting aquaplaning. All season and winter tend to have more complicated tread patterns with more grooves across the tread, which are better in mud and snow, but not water, especially as the speed rises..

I'd have said the grooves are deeper and wider in both the All Seasons on my Merc and certainly they are on the Pirelli full winter tyres on my wife's Tiguan - than summer tyres.

Having said that, the Michelin Alpin winters on the Jazz look remarkably like summer tyres.

In snow the grooves just fill up - it's the large number of small sipes in the rubber that give the tyres their better snow and ice grip, apparently.

I don't know, but it seems logical to me that for aquaplaning a tyre that had grooves across the tread and could displace water sideways would be better than one that couldn't?

I've driven the  Merc on its mixed All Seasons and Tiguan on winter Pirellis over long distances in very wet conditions and both performed flawlessly.  I've done a reasonable length motorway journey up through Lancashire on the M6 in very wet conditions in the Jazz on Alpins and that was fine too.

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