Electric cars

[sparky Paul]

I think the connection standards will be sorted out in due course, and in a few years time, you will be able to connect to any charger. Legacy vehicles may eventually need modification, or an adapter of some sort. The biggest problem at the moment is rolling up at a charger, maybe at the wrong end of your battery charge, and finding that you don't have the right subscription/app/card to access the charger.

As part of the Ecotricity/Gridserve service station upgrades, I understand the Government is forcing them to accept contactless card payments on their chargers. I don't really understand why the companies that operate these third party chargers refuse to accept card payments - it can't be a technical issue after all, you can get a contactless card payment machine that fits in the palm of you hand. Perhaps they have worked out that they can save a few pence per transaction by billing remotely.

I agree with the point made earlier, Government intervention may be required to legislate companies to offer some sort of universal access and card payments, and in due course, the new standard connectors.

[Jocko]

The biggest problem at the moment is rolling up at a charger, maybe at the wrong end of your battery charge, and finding that you don't have the right subscription/app/card to access the charger.

From what I have seen/read, there is usually an automated number to call, and you can set it up, there and then, over the phone, or you can do it online using your phone. And if you don't have a mobile, likely, you don't have an EV.

[Jocko]

I identified 6 journeys that we make annually (pre Covid obvs) which would be either very difficult or flat out impossible in any EV I could afford.

I have Zap-Map on my phone, and I would be hard-pressed to find a journey in the UK where I could not find a suitable charger. Maybe not in your destination, but certainly within a few miles of it.
Would you care to share one of the impossible ones?

[sparky Paul]

The biggest problem at the moment is rolling up at a charger, maybe at the wrong end of your battery charge, and finding that you don't have the right subscription/app/card to access the charger.

From what I have seen/read, there is usually an automated number to call, and you can set it up, there and then, over the phone, or you can do it online using your phone. And if you don't have a mobile, likely, you don't have an EV.

You're right, I probably should have said "the fear of".

I think most EV owners would probably be clued up enough to know where to roll up for a charge and where to avoid, and in an emergency, you should be able register on the hoof, as you say. The bigger issue is probably the perception that these difficulties exist, and that gives people an excuse to bash the existing systems.

At the end of the day, any private company offering a service to the public can set up whatever billing or registration arrangements they please - as in my earlier Tesco/Amazon comparison. Unless the government mandates them to accept a particular method of payment, presumably this will continue to be the case.

I identified 6 journeys that we make annually (pre Covid obvs) which would be either very difficult or flat out impossible in any EV I could afford.

I have Zap-Map on my phone, and I would be hard-pressed to find a journey in the UK where I could not find a suitable charger.

I think my long distance journeys could all be done with a reasonable range battery. The most remote is that drive to Orkney, and yes, it would take longer with several stops of 30-40 minutes, but there is no shortage of charging opportunities en route.

Whilst Orkney has no shortage of chargers, the one blot is that the small outer island where we end up has no public charger - although some of the smaller isles do. However, I'm sure I could come to some financial arrangement with the cottage owner to use a granny cable.

[Jocko]

Interesting piece in today's news. Shetland now has a charger that uses electricity generated solely by the sea.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-56482777

[JimSh]

Whilst Orkney has no shortage of chargers, the one blot is that the small outer island where we end up has no public charger - although some of the smaller isles do. However, I'm sure I could come to some financial arrangement with the cottage owner to use a granny cable.

There might be by the next time you get there.
If not, as you say, I'm sure somebody would help out.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-56482777

Jocko just beat me to it.

[sparky Paul]

Whilst Orkney has no shortage of chargers, the one blot is that the small outer island where we end up has no public charger - although some of the smaller isles do. However, I'm sure I could come to some financial arrangement with the cottage owner to use a granny cable.

There might be by the next time you get there.

Certainly by the time I go electric, that might not be for a few years yet.

I know there's a few private EV owners on the island now, it's only 20 sq. miles so range certainly shouldn't be an issue. Even around the whole of Orkney, you can't go too far. Lots the locals have wind turbines too, so free charging most of the time 

[peteo48]

I identified 6 journeys that we make annually (pre Covid obvs) which would be either very difficult or flat out impossible in any EV I could afford.

I have Zap-Map on my phone, and I would be hard-pressed to find a journey in the UK where I could not find a suitable charger. Maybe not in your destination, but certainly within a few miles of it.
Would you care to share one of the impossible ones?

I have just done a recent check on one of my difficult journeys which is to Bamford in the Peak District. Rather embarrassingly I now find that Glossop (which is en route, now boasts 2 chargers open to public use although neither of them is rapid so I will eat humble pie and say that none of my journeys are flat out impossible. That said, most of them would be inconvenient and very difficult if the charger was down. It's still not good enough for me but I'll concede things are improving.

Not sure I would want to do my last trip on holiday to Scotland with an EV - admittedly this was partly in Dumfries and Galloway which is sparsely populated.

[sparky Paul]

Rather embarrassingly I now find that Glossop (which is en route, now boasts 2 chargers open to public use although neither of them is rapid

Two out of the three sites in Glossop are rapid chargers as far as I can see? It does show one of them as out of service a week ago, but zap-map is full of out of date reports, and issues are often vehicle related, rather than the chargers themselves. This one seems to be a new machine with 'teething troubles'.

Not sure I would want to do my last trip on holiday to Scotland with an EV - admittedly this was partly in Dumfries and Galloway which is sparsely populated.

I don't think that getting there would be a problem - even Dumfries & Galloway is reasonably well catered for.

The problem is when you get to the destination - if there's nowhere to charge, you don't want to be driving miles to find somewhere to charge, then using some of it to get back to where you are staying... the alternative is making arrangements so that you can use the granny cable to charge up at your 'lodgings'.

Where we go, it's not so much of a problem - there's nowhere to drive to!

If EVs do suddenly take off, I do foresee another problem - waits for chargers on the motorway network. Charging bays at motorway services already look quite busy at times, but I don't think that Ecotricity's lack of investment in their systems has helped. It doesn't seem to be such a problem with the more widely distributed smaller charging facilities.

[TiJazz]

Not a problem with Tesla Superchargers (mostly). The other charging networks need to come up to that standard - essentially a Gridserve at every services.

[sparky Paul]

Not a problem with Tesla Superchargers (mostly). The other charging networks need to come up to that standard - essentially a Gridserve at every services.

I agree. Hopefully, now that Gridserve are now on board with Ecotricity, the suspect infrastructure should be replaced and things should improve.

[richardfrost]

I don't really understand why the companies that operate these third party chargers refuse to accept card payments - it can't be a technical issue after all, you can get a contactless card payment machine that fits in the palm of you hand.

I think it is down to owning the customer relationship. If you have to register with them, you are their customer. If you can pay with any card, you're not. They clearly believe they can extract value from you being a customer of theirs.

In all of this though, it's not the location of the chargers or their state of repair that worries me. It is me rocking up to find two chargers with three cars queuing for each one.

If I get to Whitby, find a charger, plug in. Do I have to wait an hour or two for it to charge? Can I wander into Whitby for a few hours leaving my car plugged in? How does that work?

At the park and ride at Elland Road in Leeds, there are half a dozen chargers. I think drivers get there early, plug in and go to work. They come back eight hours later. What are the chances of using one of those chargers.

Until there is a way of charging a car in the same sort of time it takes to refuel with petrol, this whole project is flawed. I do thin k that will come, but I think the technology will invalidate most current EV car designs and most of the charging network. Hence my post of a few days ago.

https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=9305.msg96233#msg96233

This is all too soon. We need to let the tech catchup. Cars aren't destroying the planet on their own. Behaviour changes could have a bigger impact than a disposable 20 years of waste on current EV designs. This all suits the car makers but not the planet.

[peteo48]

Not a problem with Tesla Superchargers (mostly). The other charging networks need to come up to that standard - essentially a Gridserve at every services.

I agree. Hopefully, now that Gridserve are now on board with Ecotricity, the suspect infrastructure should be replaced and things should improve.

This could be a game changer. Gridserve do have plans for 100 EV "filling stations" like the one off the M25 at Braintree. 36 "pumps" set out like a traditional petrol station with a Costa Coffee, Booths supermarket and WH Smith to keep you occupied whilst you wait for your car to charge.

[Westy36]

Cars aren't destroying the planet on their own. Behaviour changes could have a bigger impact than a disposable 20 years of waste on current EV designs. This all suits the car makers but not the planet.

Agreed 100%. Aviation and marine emissions are massive problems that do not seem to be being addressed.

Reverting to a bit of make do and mend, reducing the rampant consumerism trend would be a massive bonus too.

[sparky Paul]

I think it is down to owning the customer relationship. If you have to register with them, you are their customer. If you can pay with any card, you're not. They clearly believe they can extract value from you being a customer of theirs.

I can see it now, but I suspect it won't last as more universal chargers become available. It's a bit like bank cards - at one time, you had to search out one of your own bank's ATMs, then someone had a bright idea (or was it mandated by government, I cant remember) and now you can shove your card in any of them and get cash.

If I get to Whitby, find a charger, plug in. Do I have to wait an hour or two for it to charge? Can I wander into Whitby for a few hours leaving my car plugged in? How does that work?

I think that's the general idea. Once you start charging, you lock up and walk away for your shopping/coffee/sandwich/whatever. Nobody can interfere with your car, the doors are locked and the charger cable is locked in. You're not expected to stand there watching.

At the park and ride at Elland Road in Leeds, there are half a dozen chargers. I think drivers get there early, plug in and go to work. They come back eight hours later. What are the chances of using one of those chargers.

You probably wouldn't want to, those you find at park & rides are often slow (and often free) chargers specifically for the purpose of parking up and then jumping on the bus. They are obviously going to need more charging points as EV use increases. Most of the fast/rapid chargers charge you a penalty if you overstay.

Until there is a way of charging a car in the same sort of time it takes to refuel with petrol, this whole project is flawed. I do thin k that will come, but I think the technology will invalidate most current EV car designs and most of the charging network. Hence my post of a few days ago.

That is coming, 350kW CCS charging will more or less fix that problem, and is beginning to be rolled out here in the UK. Of course, only new cars will be made to use the new standards, but as I suggested earlier, there will have to be some sort of accommodation for older generation vehicles. I think that a worldwide standard for connectors and 'supercharging' has to be a good thing.

I'm not ignoring the other points, they're all fair criticisms of the systems as they stand now.