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Honda Jazz Forums => Honda Jazz Mk1 2002-2008 => Topic started by: bus_ter on August 28, 2018, 05:52:53 PM

Title: Couple Questions about changing the Coolant
Post by: bus_ter on August 28, 2018, 05:52:53 PM
Hello,

I've recently bought a 2006 Honda Jazz and I plan to give the engine a full service. The oil looks straightforward but I have a couple quick questions about changing the coolant.

1) Do I need to remove the under tray beneath the engine? Looks like some of the clips have been broken on mine as it's held on with tie wraps in places. The Haynes manual says it needs to be removed, but it looks like there is a hole specifically placed to allow the coolant to be drained?

2) The Haynes manual says I need a new O-Ring and washer for the radiator and engine drain plugs. I can't source these anywhere. Do I really need to replace them? and if so where can I buy them?!

Thanks!
Title: Re: Couple Questions about changing the Coolant
Post by: JazzyB on August 28, 2018, 09:10:32 PM
As you said leave the tray where it is, you will be fine and o-rings and washers are freely available from any Honda car dealer.

I would replace them cause if you have a leak you will have drain all your nice coolant or oil to change it.

Title: Re: Couple Questions about changing the Coolant
Post by: bus_ter on August 28, 2018, 10:40:38 PM
Thanks for the Answers.

I'll call into my local Honda dealer tomorrow.
Title: Re: Couple Questions about changing the Coolant
Post by: bus_ter on August 29, 2018, 02:09:33 PM
So I called into my local Honda dealer hoping to pick up the parts..

Apparently my car is too old for their parts catalogue (2006) so they can't source the parts.

Asking what they do.. they don't touch the plugs and just remove a radiator hose and drain what they can  :o

So again I'm stuck. What are other owners doing when they replace the coolant? Should I attempt breaking the plug seal and hope the old O-Ring will re-seal correctly? Or use the dealers method and do a partial fluid replacement from a hose?
Title: Re: Couple Questions about changing the Coolant
Post by: bus_ter on August 29, 2018, 02:22:52 PM
So I called my second nearest dealer (bit of a trip) and asked the same question.

Totally different answer! They can order the parts in. I'll post the parts numbers below for reference:

Radiator O-Ring: 19012pd2004
Engine Coolant Plug Washer: 11107pwa300

So now I'm going to call my local Honda dealer armed with these part codes and kick off..
Title: Re: Couple Questions about changing the Coolant
Post by: JazzyB on August 29, 2018, 03:06:43 PM
I wouldn't bother with the engine block plug as it's difficult to get access. You could just remove the bottom radiator hose or do like I did remove the radiator drain plug replacing the rubber o ring.

When I last did it only a couple of litres drained so don't be surprised if not much comes out.
Title: Re: Couple Questions about changing the Coolant
Post by: bus_ter on August 29, 2018, 03:17:12 PM
Ideally I want to do the job properly. The stuff that's in there has been there an awful long time and is basically brown and devoid of all colour. A partial change probably won't even change the colour.

Do you know if both plugs can be accessed without removing the undertray? As that looks like a timely pain.
Title: Re: Couple Questions about changing the Coolant
Post by: JazzyB on August 29, 2018, 03:24:12 PM
The radiator drain is easy no need to remove the undertray

The engine one is more of a pain you defo gonna need to remove the undertray and anything else to gain access
Title: Re: Couple Questions about changing the Coolant
Post by: bus_ter on August 29, 2018, 03:51:30 PM
Well parts ordered from my local Honda dealer. They couldn't really give me an answer to why they couldn't find the parts the first time... ::)

I'll attempt to do a full coolant change. If it turns out to be too much of a hassle I'll just do a radiator drain.

I also have 8 plugs ready to go in. The front ones look easy, the rear ones look a bit tricky.

Hopefully at least the oil change will be straight forward!
Title: Re: Couple Questions about changing the Coolant
Post by: culzean on August 29, 2018, 04:46:03 PM
I use OAT (long life organic acid technology) https://www.halfords.com/motoring/engine-oils-fluids/antifreeze/halfords-oat-ready-mixed-antifreeze-5-litres.

Get the ready mixed as it takes guesswork out of mixing, 50 % is the design mix, it is bit counter-intuitive but if antifreeze is too dilute or too concentrated it will raise (not lower) the freezing point.

I have changed coolant on many cars, but I avoid unscrewing plugs from cylinder blocks as too much to go wrong and they are normally a PITA to get to. The plug could leak after it has been taken out and put back,   what are you gonna do it you strip the thread when taking it out or crossthread it when putting it back in ? Could get expensive.

 I just turn heater to cold (to block it off from main system) and drain out what wants to come out through the tap in the bottom of radiator ( no need to remove undertray) - I just drain into a tray and measure how much comes out (get some cheap plastic mearurring jugs from pound shop or similar)- Measuring what comes out means you know how much should go back in,  if you cannot get the same amount back in you probably have an airlock in system.  Put the rad cap back on and run the engine and then try to get the rest back in.  It helps if front of car is higher than the rear - I normally face our cars up our sloping driveway.

The reason for turning the heater to min temperature is to keep the old coolant in the heater in the heater radiator and stop air getting in (MK2 onwards with 'fly by wire climate control probably shut the electric powered valves / solenoids when ignition power is off anyway). 

When you are happy that the same amount went in that came out run the engine and turn heater on to circulate coolant properly. You probably change about half the coolant by this method so  I normally run the car for a few days or so and try to cover a few miles and then repeat the procedure. 
Title: Re: Couple Questions about changing the Coolant
Post by: JazzyB on August 29, 2018, 05:28:19 PM
The Honda coolant is changed from new at 10 years or x miles, I can't  remember the mileage off the top of my head and then every 5 years or x miles whichever comes first.

So yours should of been done at least at 10 years I.e 2016

What is the current mileage?

If it's got Honda coolant in it I would buy the same or if in doubt go for one the universal' mixes with all colours' ones.

Have heard of people mixing coolant's only to find a overheated engine due to the different coolants thickening and preventing flow.
Title: Re: Couple Questions about changing the Coolant
Post by: sparky Paul on August 29, 2018, 05:47:02 PM
Indeed, mixing OAT with Glycol coolant can cause gelling in the radiator.

You should lose most of the coolant from the bottom hose, a flush with a garden hosepipe should clear any remainder.
Title: Re: Couple Questions about changing the Coolant
Post by: culzean on August 29, 2018, 05:55:32 PM
OAT coolant is still based on glycol, the anti-freeze bit is still ethylene glycol (alcohol) and it keeps its antifreeze properties for a long long time,  may get diluted if system topped up with plain water though. It is the OAT anti corrosion chemicals that get used up as they do their job and you are basically replacing those.
 
Older glycol coolant used to contain silicates as the anti corrosion, but they can damage modern systems.

The colour of antifreeze does not mean much, glycol is clear and so are other additives, the colour is added to show up any leaks in the system, you can check antifreeze (glycol) concentration with a hydrometer, but not the level of anti corrosion chemicals.
Title: Re: Couple Questions about changing the Coolant
Post by: sparky Paul on August 29, 2018, 06:18:47 PM
I meant to say OAT and the old green/blue Glycol based coolant.

Personally, if in any doubt as to what's in it, I would give it a good flush.
Title: Re: Couple Questions about changing the Coolant
Post by: Jocko on August 29, 2018, 06:19:58 PM
You should lose most of the coolant from the bottom hose, a flush with a garden hosepipe should clear any remainder.
What I have done in the past is remove the bottom hose, from the block.
Once as much as wants to drain out has drained out I clamp the hose shut, remove the thermostat and flush the block from the top, using a garden hose.
Once everything is all buttoned up again I then add enough concentrated antifreeze to make a total fill at the correct ratio then fill up with water. Run the engine until warm and check the level. If it is low I top up with tap water.
Title: Re: Couple Questions about changing the Coolant
Post by: bus_ter on August 29, 2018, 08:24:41 PM
Lots of good info for me to read through here, thanks.

I've bought the original Honda Type 2 pre-mix coolant. It was £20 but I figure it's the best bet for what is already in there and thus not end up mixing types.

The car is at 80K, and though it has been serviced it hasn't seen a Honda dealer since about year 3. I'm assuming probably only the oil and air filter has been changed since then. The coolant is a lovely dirty brown colour. It also failed the anti-freeze test with 2 of the 3 balls sinking on my Halfords tester. As such I really want to do a proper change of the coolant.

I can tell the undertray/splash guard has been removed previously because they made a mess of it. Most of the clips are missing and replaced with tie wraps. If it hasn't been removed for servicing then I have to wonder why it was removed.

Regarding turning the heater to cold above, I heard you should do the opposite and set it to hot. After all reducing the amount of coolant removed to prevent air bubbles is kind of defeating the whole purpose? Air blocks can be removed by just running the engine afterwards and topping up?

Title: Re: Couple Questions about changing the Coolant
Post by: culzean on August 29, 2018, 08:31:02 PM
Air blocks can be removed by just running the engine afterwards and topping up?

In the past have had the devils own job removing airlocks from cooling systems,  thought I had got rid of airlocks by running engine and short runs and went for a decent run only to have the temperature gauge  (I know Jazz hasn't got one just silly lights) shoot right up into the 'your engine will blow in 1 minute' zone.  That is why I would rather avoid them if I can.

I also try not to disturb hoses, as when they have been on car for a few years they can get proper stuck,  and I don't want to risk damaging the seal or the hose.
Title: Re: Couple Questions about changing the Coolant
Post by: Jocko on August 29, 2018, 08:38:46 PM
Bleeding the heater can be a pig of a job on some cars. Sometimes I have had to remove the heater return hose until water comes out. Other cars bleed very easily. I had one car (cannot remember which one), that had a bleed valve for the heater. It was just like bleeding a domestic radiator. Never done the Jazz so no idea if it is good or bad.
Title: Re: Couple Questions about changing the Coolant
Post by: JazzyB on August 29, 2018, 08:48:17 PM
I changed the coolant on my Jazz last year and just followed the directions in the user's manual and had no problems with overheating or anything else.
Title: Re: Couple Questions about changing the Coolant
Post by: Jocko on August 29, 2018, 09:04:31 PM
For those who don't have the original manual you can download it here:
http://www.hondatrading.ro/uploads/manuals/Manual_de_utilizare_Honda_Jazz.pdf (http://www.hondatrading.ro/uploads/manuals/Manual_de_utilizare_Honda_Jazz.pdf)
Page 292 is the bit you want.
Title: Re: Couple Questions about changing the Coolant
Post by: bus_ter on August 29, 2018, 09:07:27 PM
I haven't even looked in the user manual! Just been referring to a Haynes manual which seems rather more complex.

My coolant is so bad I don't think a partial drain and top up is going to be up to the job. I've booked Friday off work specifically to go through all the service items. I'll attempt to follow the haynes instructions. I've at least been able to get hold of the washer and O-Ring parts.

Wish me luck!  ???
Title: Re: Couple Questions about changing the Coolant
Post by: bus_ter on September 01, 2018, 02:28:45 PM
POST CHANGE UPDATE
***************************

Yesterday I did all my planned maintenance on my 'new' Jazz. Here's a little feedback to help other total newbies like myself in the future.

OIL Change
-------
This was relatively easy and straightforward. With the front end jacked slightly and the engine warmed I managed to get nearly the whole capacity emptied. Only issues were with the Sump plug. With it reversed from front access I was trying to tighten it up at first! Once removed there didn't seem to be a washer installed. The bolt seems to be two part and at first I thought there was a stuck washer but it was part of the sump plug. I replaced the cheap filter with an original Honda filter and added the washer that came with the filter. I used Castrol EDGE 5W-30 LL Fully Synthetic. A little over the top but I thought she should have the best after years of neglect.


Coolant Change
-------------

My engine tray it beaten up and held on by various half broken clips and cable ties. In the end I just left it and only drained from the radiator (and not the engine block drain). I didn't get much fluid out, probably only a litre. I was able to remove and empty the overflow tank. This was tricky with the lower tray in place, but I undid the bolt and lowered it down to the floor, then lifted it up to reinstall. This gave me another 300ml or so of fluid to change. On refilling the coolant I didn't have any issues with air blocks (probably because of how little I changed). It took ages for the engine to warm up enough to get the radiator fan going. Using my OBD reader it was 93 degrees that turned it on. Once mixed round it didn't do much to change the dirty original colour. The dirty blue stuff that came out did however look like the blue Honda Type 2 coolant I added. I assume it was the original factory coolant, so at least I'm not mixing two types.


Spark plugs
-----------------

Changed these for orginal NGK BKR6E-11 plugs. Front were easy, the rear ones were tricky. I had to slide the wiring harness out the way and use a rortating elbow joint with my spanner extension. I used the hose pipe trick to remove and start the new plugs. Front plugs looked fresh, rear plugs had carbon build up. Either the rear plugs work harder, or more likely they weren't changed when the fronts were done.


Air Filters
---------
Cabin was very easy to change, and absolutely disgusting. Obviously had never been changed.

Intake filter was in good shape. I found it a real pain to remove and replace the lid. Not sure why when it looks easy in the videos. I just couldn't get the clearance, a real PITA! Maybe there's a knack I don't know about.
Title: Re: Couple Questions about changing the Coolant
Post by: VicW on September 01, 2018, 02:36:35 PM
It's easy to not quite line up the air filter lid so that it stands slightly proud.This makes it very difficult to get the clips to go over centre.
When you fit the lid attempt to move it backwards and forwards and side to side, you may feel it click into place.

Vic.