Author Topic: Electric cars  (Read 694656 times)

peteo48

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #795 on: March 01, 2018, 01:50:20 PM »
I have come to the conclusion that research into electric cars is not very imaginative. For me, there should be three streams of work...

1. Power storage and delivery, i.e. batteries, capacitors, fuel cells, hybrids of these
2. Motive power, i.e. the future of motors
3. Car design, i.e. stop thinking about how to fit batteries and motors into existing car shapes designed for engines up front, fuel tanks underneath and drive shafts up the middle. Think imaginatively about how new technology could encourage different designs, and not just bland cubes on wheels.


I wonder if the conservatism in design is a marketing thing? If it looks like a conventional car, an EV might sell better especially to people who might be put off or scared by a radical design? A lot of the advertising seems to stress how easy the transition can be.

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #796 on: March 01, 2018, 03:13:03 PM »
I have come to the conclusion that research into electric cars is not very imaginative. For me, there should be three streams of work...

1. Power storage and delivery, i.e. batteries, capacitors, fuel cells, hybrids of these
2. Motive power, i.e. the future of motors
3. Car design, i.e. stop thinking about how to fit batteries and motors into existing car shapes designed for engines up front, fuel tanks underneath and drive shafts up the middle. Think imaginatively about how new technology could encourage different designs, and not just bland cubes on wheels.
1. Research along these lines is what is happening at the moment, not only for cars but for other technologies.
2. Electric motors are such mature technology and all the research has been done. At 97% efficiency there is not a great deal to be gained by further research.
3. Pretty much the same goes for cars. What we have now is the result of over 100 years of research. As for EVs, the battery is the heaviest component so physics define it should be as low as possible for stability. A wheel at each corner makes the best ride and driving experience. Electric motors are best fitted to the wheels so that places them. An efficient and aerodynamic shape that can comfortably accommodate the requisite number of passengers is pretty much what we have at present.

What would you want in a body shape?

richardfrost

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #797 on: March 01, 2018, 03:43:28 PM »
Perhaps I should have been clearer. Of course I know that research is happening on power storage and delivery I mean that perhaps car manufacturers are not best placed to lead the research on item 1. as their needs are driven by the desire to reuse existing motor vehicle designs.

So combining 1. and 3. it might make sense to say, have a switchable battery bay allowing on demand electric cars to run 24x7 by returning to a pod switching station. This works against the model of individual car ownership though and is not really in the interest of manufacturers.

As for your comments Jocko on electric motors, maybe the current design of motor is super efficient, but what else could be added to the mix and what about different types of propulsion? Might seem daft but what about rail gun style linear motors adding motive power to compatible vehicles on long hills on motorways, for example. Integrated with on board power and kinetic energy recovery it could make a significant difference to vehicle range.

Why are electric motors best fitted to the wheels? Why not make them the wheels? I have a friend who is a professor at Warwick and they are looking into exactly that.

I think Henry Ford's famous quote on innovation - "If I had asked my customers what they wanted, they would have said 'faster horses'" has been forgotten. I think the car manufacturers are the ones now designing faster horses and somebody else may well come up with the new answer for renewable forms of transport.

And as I said earlier, car manufacturers are looking for the best design of all round vehicle, when what might be needed is a better form of urban transport supplemented by traditional petroleum powered vehicles for extra urban, long distance and specialist uses.

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #798 on: March 01, 2018, 04:00:55 PM »
Perhaps I should have been clearer. Of course I know that research is happening on power storage and delivery I mean that perhaps car manufacturers are not best placed to lead the research on item 1. as their needs are driven by the desire to reuse existing motor vehicle designs.

So combining 1. and 3. it might make sense to say, have a switchable battery bay allowing on demand electric cars to run 24x7 by returning to a pod switching station. This works against the model of individual car ownership though and is not really in the interest of manufacturers.

As for your comments Jocko on electric motors, maybe the current design of motor is super efficient, but what else could be added to the mix and what about different types of propulsion? Might seem daft but what about rail gun style linear motors adding motive power to compatible vehicles on long hills on motorways, for example. Integrated with on board power and kinetic energy recovery it could make a significant difference to vehicle range.

Why are electric motors best fitted to the wheels? Why not make them the wheels? I have a friend who is a professor at Warwick and they are looking into exactly that.

I think Henry Ford's famous quote on innovation - "If I had asked my customers what they wanted, they would have said 'faster horses'" has been forgotten. I think the car manufacturers are the ones now designing faster horses and somebody else may well come up with the new answer for renewable forms of transport.

And as I said earlier, car manufacturers are looking for the best design of all round vehicle, when what might be needed is a better form of urban transport supplemented by traditional petroleum powered vehicles for extra urban, long distance and specialist uses.

Traditional car makers have massive R&D and huge technical and manufacturing capability (ask silicon valley and Tesla - who were 'gonna kick Detroits A55 ! ) - they will come up with the most pragmatic real world solutions that people will want to buy,  they may not be interested in selling mega-expensive specialist vehicles to a few companies like Uber,  they want mass market and economies of scale.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #799 on: March 01, 2018, 09:19:21 PM »
The folly of using natural gas to generate electricity is now obvious - it was on the news tonight that a few days into a cold snap UK is getting short of gas - the very same gas most people rely on to heat homes and businesses - I did notice on gridwatch yesterday that gas powered electricity was way down from where it usually is, nuclear and coal flat out, solar was loafing again and wind was at about 20% - the highest I have seen it for a while. If the wind drops we could get power outages.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #800 on: March 01, 2018, 09:40:54 PM »
Wind could easily be higher than it usually is, but it is easier to shut down a wind turbine than a gas or coal fired station. When the BBC News reported it, earlier in the evening, wind was highest at 27%. At the moment its 25.7%, second to coal at 27.8%

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #801 on: March 02, 2018, 07:15:26 AM »
So that is the new Jaguar i-Pace officially available and able to be ordered for July delivery. At £64K for the base model it should limit sales of the Tesla Model S. It is way too pricey for the common man, but there is a huge market for cars in that price range. Seemingly it will be built in Austria! Does that tell you anything?

https://www.jaguar.co.uk/jaguar-range/i-pace/index.html?gclid=Cj0KCQiA5t7UBRDaARIsAOreQtgGH5etSwYvx5kKJZU8vzegvCPiUTeyN-KXruSwN1v165Ej_xsZppQaAlUAEALw_wcB

richardfrost

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #802 on: March 02, 2018, 09:08:38 AM »
Traditional car makers have massive R&D and huge technical and manufacturing capability (ask silicon valley and Tesla - who were 'gonna kick Detroits A55 ! ) - they will come up with the most pragmatic real world solutions that people will want to buy,  they may not be interested in selling mega-expensive specialist vehicles to a few companies like Uber,  they want mass market and economies of scale.
I think you made my point better than I did. They will force the market down their route, which favours things they find easy to sell, which are not necessarily the best for the environment and sustainability. It's a bit like the huge drug companies who only develop drugs to treat the profitable illnesses.

richardfrost

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #803 on: March 02, 2018, 09:10:37 AM »
So that is the new Jaguar i-Pace officially available and able to be ordered for July delivery. At £64K for the base model it should limit sales of the Tesla Model S. It is way too pricey for the common man, but there is a huge market for cars in that price range. Seemingly it will be built in Austria! Does that tell you anything?

https://www.jaguar.co.uk/jaguar-range/i-pace/index.html?gclid=Cj0KCQiA5t7UBRDaARIsAOreQtgGH5etSwYvx5kKJZU8vzegvCPiUTeyN-KXruSwN1v165Ej_xsZppQaAlUAEALw_wcB

I wonder who is liable when some pedestrian walking along looking at their phone trips over the kerbside charging cable and gets hurt, perhaps even denting the precious Jaguar? I really don't see a future in kerbside charging.

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #804 on: March 02, 2018, 09:43:31 AM »
I really don't see a future in kerbside charging.
Wireless charging and Inductive charging is the future for kerbside charging.
This type of thing:
https://www.pluglesspower.com/

peteo48

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #805 on: March 02, 2018, 10:08:58 AM »
I think the other thing, alongside induction charging, will be vastly increased range. For example it would be feasible for me to use a rapid charger not far from where I live and, given my mileage, a recharge every 2 or 3 weeks would do me. It's why I decided not to go down the EV route now. The new 40 kwh Leaf will do me fine but it might be a couple of years before they reach my price bracket.

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #806 on: March 02, 2018, 11:03:38 AM »
Traditional car makers have massive R&D and huge technical and manufacturing capability (ask silicon valley and Tesla - who were 'gonna kick Detroits A55 ! ) - they will come up with the most pragmatic real world solutions that people will want to buy,  they may not be interested in selling mega-expensive specialist vehicles to a few companies like Uber,  they want mass market and economies of scale.
I think you made my point better than I did. They will force the market down their route, which favours things they find easy to sell, which are not necessarily the best for the environment and sustainability. It's a bit like the huge drug companies who only develop drugs to treat the profitable illnesses.

Can't blame the drug companies,  they are not charities and will not spend the £Billions it needs to bring new drugs to market if only 100 people in the world suffer from a condition.  Drug companies would rather develop a new indigestion tablet or antihistamine than a drug to cure a rear genetic blood disorder that is so rare a case comes up once a year.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #807 on: March 02, 2018, 11:12:07 AM »
I really don't see a future in kerbside charging.
Wireless charging and Inductive charging is the future for kerbside charging.
This type of thing:
https://www.pluglesspower.com/

Air gaps are notoriously inefficient pathways for induction of electricity,  that is why transformers and motors have laminated iron cores.  What happens if poor old Joe Bloggs with his pacemaker walks past the car,  he could well end up as Joe Doe.  We used to have to put large 'no pacemaker' labels on outside of  equipment that was inside an earthed steel cabinet that was inside another earthed steel cabinet due to elf and safety  concerns about stray fields - and the higher the frequency the greater the danger. 
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #808 on: March 02, 2018, 11:27:45 AM »
So that is the new Jaguar i-Pace officially available and able to be ordered for July delivery. At £64K for the base model it should limit sales of the Tesla Model S. It is way too pricey for the common man, but there is a huge market for cars in that price range. Seemingly it will be built in Austria! Does that tell you anything?

https://www.jaguar.co.uk/jaguar-range/i-pace/index.html?gclid=Cj0KCQiA5t7UBRDaARIsAOreQtgGH5etSwYvx5kKJZU8vzegvCPiUTeyN-KXruSwN1v165Ej_xsZppQaAlUAEALw_wcB

Funny how BEV makers always choose to say things like ' can get to 80% charge in 60 minutes on 50KW charger'  ( the last 20% of the charge will probably take another 2 hours ),  but they expect people to extrapolate that if 80% takes 60 minutes 100% will take another 12 to 15 minutes  :o

The world of automotive makers is probably one of the most global there is, when trade unions were strong car makers used to split production of models between countries in case of labour troubles in one they could carry on in the others.

After that it was realised that people are more likely buy a car if it is made in their country and provided jobs  (except us Brits who are so promiscuous in our buying habits that we don't really care where stuff comes from anymore ).  Honda was really the first Jap company to build a car factory in the USA, they have built more since and they have been rewarded by high brand loyalty from American buyers since. 
« Last Edit: March 02, 2018, 11:42:36 AM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

John Ratsey

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #809 on: March 02, 2018, 11:38:05 AM »
Air gaps are notoriously inefficient pathways for induction of electricity,  that is why transformers and motors have laminated iron cores.  What happens if poor old Joe Bloggs with his pacemaker walks past the car,  he could well end up as Joe Doe.  We used to have to put large 'no pacemaker' labels on outside of  equipment that was inside an earthed steel cabinet that was inside another earthed steel cabinet due to elf and safety  concerns about stray fields - and the higher the frequency the greater the danger.
I get the impression that inductive charging for phones hasn't been a big success when people realised it was quite slow. The induction charging for toothbrushes works because (i) people don't mind it being slow and (ii) it keeps the electrics sealed away from water water and other muck. Even if a vehicle is parked over a charging pad then there will be an airgap of several inches unless a coil on the vehicle drops down to touch the charging pad.
2022 HR-V Elegance, previously 2020 Jazz Crosstar

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