Author Topic: Electric cars  (Read 694148 times)

peteo48

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #570 on: November 26, 2017, 01:06:16 PM »
I agree with you about politicians but this, surely, is a matter of science.

madasafish

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #571 on: November 26, 2017, 01:56:09 PM »
This conspiracy theorising gets us nowhere. Where did the meeting take place to make up a phony science? Who was there? This, as I've said before, puts us in zero sum territory - you point the finger at governments wanting to invent new ways to tax us - I point the finger at Exxon Mobile and other companies who fund climate change scepticism.

Not all governments want to tax more - governments of the centre right generally prefer low tax low spending regimes so I don't see the Conservative Party attending meetings to make up carbon taxes and absolutely not the Republican Party in the USA.

Even Climate Change sceptic Matt Ridley (business interests in coal and fracking equipment) accepts that methane and CO2 are greenhouse gases - why? Because they are.

Scientists from other areas have examined the science and found it soundly based. There really is very little doubt about it.

But people continued to deny the science behind cigarettes causing cancer - some still do. It's uncomfortable to accept that change in behaviour is necessary.


Climate or carbon tax is not like other taxes which are seen 'as greedy wasteful governments grabbing more money', they are seen as money given to caring governments to save the planet.

Governments  knew about Diesel and asbestos problems a long, long time ago but never instigated and changes until loads of people had died from asbestos related problems, similarly they stuck with Diesel until the bitter end where the VW cover up exposed in USA mad it impossible for them to maintain the 'clean diesel' myth any longer. Governments knew about smoking as well but the tax on tobacco managed to assuage any pangs of conscience they may have had about keeping it quiet.

Governments lied to us about Iraq, guess I was the only one in our office that spotted Tony B Liar was doing this for reasons other than saving us from Iraqi rockets loaded with nuclear warheads  (UN weapons inspectors tried to warn everyone that there were no WMD in Iraq,  but political expediency overruled common sense) , and the aftermath of that little adventure is the whole middle east / north africa totally de-stabilised and in anarchy and flames for foreseeable future).

Its easy to tell when a politician is lying,  their lips are moving.

+1

Where are the Brexit supporters who did any sums except those which showed we would save "£18B" a year by leaving. None of them told us there would be a charge to leave  - latest estimate £40B.

There are lots of people stupid enough to believe what politicians say : reality suggests a healthy dose of scepticism couple with a demand to show the evidence for any claim is far more sensible .


culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #572 on: November 26, 2017, 03:05:27 PM »
I have witness the weather changing during my 70 years of life on the planet, and from my observations the climate is definitely changing. The summers are getting wetter and the winters are getting warmer. As a youth we would get several falls of snow, here on the Fife coast, that lay for a week or two at a time. Now the one or two falls per winter are gone by lunch time.
Whether it is man made change or natural, I cannot voice an educated opinion, but it seems rather quick compared to other changes in climate over the past 1,000 years or so.
So, personally, I believe man is changing the Earth's climate, and not for the better.

But then when I was at school I can remember the tar on the roads melting in summer,  we used to have fun sitting on the kerb messing around with it. We also had one of the coldest winters on record (1962/3) and another in 1982/3 and 2010/11.   Summers seem to be cooler and winters warmer just lately but that is a short time to judge climate.
More co2 in atmosphere increases plant and algae growth, which absorbs co2.  One decent volcanic eruption puts more  in the atmosphere than we can, and they have been happening since planet formed, and are actually getting less frequent.  From looking at fossils of insects and their huge sizes scientists reckon that when insects were alive earth atmosphere was over 30% oxygen, which would be a problem today because things would spontaneously combust.

Edit by Admin - removed expletive.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2017, 12:07:03 PM by RichardA »
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Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #573 on: November 26, 2017, 09:04:50 PM »
As with every other motoring forum I have ever visited, eventually any discussion of electric vehicles eventually ends up as a discussion on whether global warming is a manmade occurrence or natural, if it exists at all. But even if fossil fuel burning has nothing to do with harming the environment there is still a great argument for electric vehicles.
During the life of an EV they are no more polluting than conventional vehicles, either in manufacture and or use. If you can live with their currently limited range, and have somewhere to charge your vehicle they are a great option. Maintenance costs are considerably less than for a conventional vehicle. They offer a super smooth automatic transmission (actually no transmissions as such), and I for one think nothing beats an automatic transmission. They are quiet and cause much less pollution in our cities.
Some of you will say, “But I like changing gear”. Sure. We all enjoy the control it gives us, but I have recently had to make a couple of morning rush hour trips into Edinburgh and driving a manual car was a nightmare. A three hour trip was done at an average speed of 25 mph. And half of that three hours was open road with light traffic. Why anyone would chose to use a manual transmission for that sort of journey is beyond me.
Noise, or lack of it, is less of a bonus. Most traffic noise in a city (other than goods vehicles), is tyre noise. I dare say, if you miss your engine noise you could have something piped in via your audio system. A burbling V8 if you wish.
Autonomous vehicles are a different kettle of fish, another step again. There is no need for an autonomous vehicle to be electric. There are dozens of conventional trucks, testing autonomous equipment, currently running in the world. Airliners are all but autonomous at present. So too are much of the worlds merchant fleet. Super tankers have a watch keeping officer and a watch keeping engineer. The engine room is controlled by satellite communication from ashore.
The ideal autonomous vehicle would be a train (no steering, goes where the points are set and has to obey signals), or for a road going vehicle, a tram.
Personally I see electricity as just another power source for a road vehicle. Just as LPG and Biofuels are at present. If EVs become the predominant road vehicles it will be by natural selection (possible influenced by legislation), but it will be a choice.

sparky Paul

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #574 on: November 27, 2017, 03:04:36 PM »
I love autos. The only problem with autos is that they go wrong, and when they do, it gets expensive. The semi-auto solenoid operated manual gearboxes are even worse.

Bring on the electric cars, I say. If it can drive itself and I can have a nap, so much the better.  8)

None of them told us there would be a charge to leave  - latest estimate £40B.

Latest I hear is that they have bashed out a deal, and it is going to be kept secret from the public. With a bit of luck, BoJo will get to know... we will all know shortly after.

peteo48

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #575 on: November 27, 2017, 03:11:07 PM »
Excellent post Jocko.

Good points about auto transmissions. Because I do so little driving (3,000 ish per annum) and the car is only used 4 times a week tops using the slick manual on the Jazz is not an issue until............

Last week we visited friends in North Wales - on the way back to Warrington we hit rush hour. Stop start traffic for nearly an hour. I was getting mightily peed off with going into neutral, clutch down, back into gear, move short distance, back into neutral etc etc. In my commuting I did a lot of shift work so missed a lot of heavy traffic - if I did a commute at rush hour then I might even consider a CVT!

The electric car excels in this environment. It's not belching out carcinogens and the de facto automatic must make driving a boon. I've had several lifts in a Leaf now and it's a great car - as a second car I'd buy one tomorrow but I am the only driver in our household. Unfortunately there are 2 or 3 trips per year that an EV would struggle with especially with the crap charging network in the UK (Tesla are an honourable exception here).

But I'd still like one!

guest1372

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #576 on: November 27, 2017, 09:48:19 PM »
'Royal Dutch Shell has announced it will work with some of the world’s biggest carmakers to offer high-speed charging points for electric vehicles in 10 European countries.  The points to be installed in partnership with Ionity involve high-powered chargers capable of topping-up an electric car in five to eight minutes — up to three times faster than is currently possible.  An average of six fast-charging points will be installed at each of the sites....  Each charging point will have a capacity of 350 kilowatts, compared with today’s industry standard of 50kW.

Shell last month agreed to buy NewMotion, Europe’s largest electric charging points operator with a network of 80,000 sites.'


https://www.ft.com/content/9e879ee6-d121-11e7-b781-794ce08b24dc
--
TG

guest5079

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #577 on: November 28, 2017, 09:47:55 AM »
This am on Radio 4, discussion re space weather forecasting. Of course the question was is it important? I admit my thoughts a well.  It seems it is extremely important. Some years back Canada suffered problems caused by a magnetic pulse in the atmosphere. We experienced one some years back. As I understand it, the Sun is the culprit. Observers of the Sun watch for solar flares and if one is directly pointed at Earth we have a problem. So far it seems we are escaping BUT one of the problems are that these flares cause magnetic pulses and they have the capability to take out satellite navigation. OOPS being a Luddite I think I will stick to my conventional car and a printed map. OR will all the computer gizmos on the Honda be affected. Will driverless cars have a fail safe???

peteo48

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #578 on: November 28, 2017, 05:32:26 PM »
Just watched a YouTube video by a guy who calls his channel EV Opinion. He was musing about the fact that mainstream car makers were still developing new petrol engines and will, clearly, want a return on these. Nissan are no different in this respect than many other car makers. I drove a new Civic last month as a loaner - all new 1.0 litre engine.

I then saw an advert for a 4 year old Nissan Leaf - just under £7,000 - big mileage but still decent battery health. Ideal town car was my immediate thought.

In short I think there is still a fair bit of life left in the ICE. 23 years until we have to go all electric and that's a long time. I've also been mulling over the Mk3 Jazz and it sums it all up for me. Where EVs need to be is £15,000 (ish) for a supermini, 250 miles in the worst possible conditions and easily chargeable on longer trips. I think we are still some way from that.

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #579 on: December 01, 2017, 07:08:46 AM »
Tesla has its Mega battery up and running in South Australia, well within the 100 days Elon Musk said they would do it by (or it would be free of charge). It uses the same technology used for Tesla cars.
What is important is the fact it is charged from a wind farm, not by solar, which Australia is big on.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-42190358

peteo48

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #580 on: December 01, 2017, 11:07:37 AM »
Just on batteries and range I came across an item on google the other day. I'd post a link but can't find it at the moment. The guy has devised a test to reveal the maximum range of the cars in the worst conditions. This involves 90% motorway at 68 mph in low temperatures with the climate control set to 22 degrees (motorway driving being the worst conditions for an EV).

The Nissan Leaf 24 will do 57 miles in these conditions - the Nissan Leaf 30 will do 78 miles.

The guy is on the right lines. Anybody who has followed EV news on YouTube or various forums will see people clad in arctic gear, peering through gaps in a misted windscreen and driving at 50 mph on the motorway.

I want no part of that but, more generally, I find worst case scenarios far more helpful than any official figures on mpg for petrol cars or range for EVs.

Here are my findings for my Mk2 1.4 Ex looking back over records kept on fuelly.com

Urban driving in cold wet conditions and heavyish traffic(max distance 4 miles return) - 35 mpg.
Motorway driving in rainy conditions at 70 mph with some steep gradients - 47 mpg.

I can work with those figures and improve them. The NEDC figures are pure fantasy.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 11:10:06 AM by peteo48 »

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #581 on: December 01, 2017, 01:35:00 PM »
Just on batteries and range I came across an item on google the other day. I'd post a link but can't find it at the moment. The guy has devised a test to reveal the maximum range of the cars in the worst conditions. This involves 90% motorway at 68 mph in low temperatures with the climate control set to 22 degrees (motorway driving being the worst conditions for an EV).

The Nissan Leaf 24 will do 57 miles in these conditions - the Nissan Leaf 30 will do 78 miles.

The guy is on the right lines. Anybody who has followed EV news on YouTube or various forums will see people clad in arctic gear, peering through gaps in a misted windscreen and driving at 50 mph on the motorway.

I want no part of that but, more generally, I find worst case scenarios far more helpful than any official figures on mpg for petrol cars or range for EVs.

Here are my findings for my Mk2 1.4 Ex looking back over records kept on fuelly.com

Urban driving in cold wet conditions and heavyish traffic(max distance 4 miles return) - 35 mpg.
Motorway driving in rainy conditions at 70 mph with some steep gradients - 47 mpg.

I can work with those figures and improve them. The NEDC figures are pure fantasy.

You are right, this is the kind of information that should be made more available, not the 'absolute best case scenario' of driving everywhere in bright, warm sunshine at 50mph with no hills.

Nissan claims 155 miles range from 30Kw battery,  so only 50% of that range achieved - that is a massive difference from claimed range.... 

Here is 'piston heads' discussion..  https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=247&t=1656779
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 02:21:30 PM by culzean »
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guest5079

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #582 on: December 01, 2017, 03:30:20 PM »
Because the RAC and AA were trying it on I finally bought my breakdown insurance off Gem. Yesterday, a magazine dropped through the letter box from GEM. In side is an article on three vehicles. A Renault Zoe, a Mitsubishi Outllander PHEV and a Toyota Prius. Comparisons were done. The writer states that the official NEDC figures give the Zoe with the ZE 40 battery a range of 250 miles on one charge. However Renault  qualify with 186 miles in Summer and 124 miles in Winter.It seems the batteries don't like cold weather. The writer had problems with accessing charging points. One was blocked by motorists who couldn't find anywhere else to park?????????????? One point of issue was the claim that electricity could be bought at 16p KWh. The other two of course are not EV's and the Mitsubishi only had a range of 22miles so on battery alone at £43,000 is a lot of money for a vehicle that still depends on the ICE. They thought it a great vehicle.
The last the Prius was a betweener but it doesn't have electric power alone and at nearly £30000 is a lot of money. Ironically the Zoe which is what started all this was well liked.

richardfrost

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #583 on: December 01, 2017, 03:45:05 PM »
In November I sold my HRV and replaced it with a Toyota Rav4 Hybrid. This has a 2.5 litre petrol engine. It goes hardly anywhere on pure electric, other than far enough off my estate at 0630 that I don't wake anyone up.

I have no illusions as to getting high MPG figures, but it does approach the efficiency of my Diesel HRV in some situations, particularly on my stop start commute into Leeds, involving some motorway driving too.

Bottom line - I am happy I don't drive a diesel anymore and my larger 4x4 replacement is not much more thirsty and runs on slightly cheaper fuel.

There is no EV on the planet that could meet my needs right now.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2017, 05:47:56 PM by richardfrost »

peteo48

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #584 on: December 01, 2017, 08:32:21 PM »
I think hybrids have got a bit lost in all the discussion around EVs. For many people they make excellent sense, less tailpipe emissions in heavy traffic or at lights etc but the ability to do decent distances.

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