Author Topic: Electric cars  (Read 700496 times)

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #390 on: October 27, 2017, 07:27:40 PM »
The following calculations disregard inefficiencies of invertors, transformers etc.
The battery quoted is 32kW. At 375 volts you would be talking about 850 amps to transfer that from a Storage battery to the car. A huge current but not insurmountable as designs improve (multi pin connectors a possibility). Running direct off a single phase of the mains, at the UK standard of 230 volts, would require 1400 amps, which can never happen. Even 3 phase would require a huge current. However, single phase, 230 volts, 20 amps would charge the storage battery pack in less than 8 hours.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2017, 08:54:45 PM by Jocko »

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #391 on: October 27, 2017, 08:21:05 PM »
The following calculations disregard inefficiencies of invertors, transformers etc.
However, single phase, 230 volts, 20 amps would charge the storage battery pack in less than 8 hours.

For an 100kw/h battery, which will become the norm as most EV can get around 3km per KWh.

230 volts single phase at 20 amps would put 5KW an hour into battery,  that means at least 20 hours (ignoring inefficiency of equipment and charging efficiency of battery), off a 13 amp plug it would be 3KW an hour, or 33 hours.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2017, 09:23:49 PM by culzean »
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Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #392 on: October 27, 2017, 08:58:33 PM »
Sorry. The battery quoted is 32kW not 320kW. The charge rate for 6 minutes is where the 320kW came in to the equation. The battery storage would need 32kW hence my numbers.

guest1372

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #393 on: October 28, 2017, 01:56:20 PM »
The rapid chargers are DC, the use of a local storage battery is implied.  The neighbourhood grid will not have to deal with temporary high peak loads.  The long term aim is to locally buffer generated power for local supply.  It will end up as part of a more holistic approach incorporating solar feed in, power loan back, & demand balancing.

This is the same method drone flyers use: at the field you rapid charge your small flight packs from a large storage battery.
--
TG

madasafish

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #394 on: October 30, 2017, 06:41:23 AM »
"Toyota are working on a new solid state battery technology which promises to be game changing – if not quite disruptive – with the original claims for the batteries suggesting they would deliver a 600 mile range and cost 90 per cent less than current batteries."

Read more: http://www.carsuk.net/toyota-wont-share-600-mile-ev-battery-technology/#ixzz4wyGx0pSk

rogbro

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #395 on: October 31, 2017, 03:30:25 PM »
Conclusion of an environmental impact of electric cars .

  Over the cars life, from mining the Lithium and Cobalt for its batteries, to the breakers yard. 
Environmentally Electric cars are NO better that a modern petrol one.   In fact if the electricity used to charge it, is from a fossil fuel generating plant.  They are worse.   

madasafish

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #396 on: October 31, 2017, 03:37:00 PM »
Conclusion of an environmental impact of electric cars .

  Over the cars life, from mining the Lithium and Cobalt for its batteries, to the breakers yard. 
Environmentally Electric cars are NO better that a modern petrol one.   In fact if the electricity used to charge it, is from a fossil fuel generating plant.  They are worse.

Without any reference to back up such a bald statement, it's less than useless...

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #397 on: October 31, 2017, 04:18:45 PM »
Lithium is extracted from Brine. Very little is mined. Cobalt is a by product of copper and nickel mining. Vast amounts of electricity is used in the refining of petrol. So unless we all go back to horses and Shanks' Pony we will continue to pollute the planet.
The supertanker bringing the oil from Saudi to Milford Haven burns 4,000 tons of crude plus roughly the same going back empty. Everything we do pollutes. EVs are no worse than any other car.

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #398 on: October 31, 2017, 04:31:42 PM »
Oh yes. What about the Platinum, Palladium and Rhodium used in catalytic converters? Production of them, either by mining or recycling, is also polluting the environment.

guest4871

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #399 on: October 31, 2017, 07:56:02 PM »
Conclusion of an environmental impact of electric cars .

  Over the cars life, from mining the Lithium and Cobalt for its batteries, to the breakers yard. 
Environmentally Electric cars are NO better that a modern petrol one.   In fact if the electricity used to charge it, is from a fossil fuel generating plant.  They are worse.

Sounds logical to me.

Whilst city air might be better, the power generation pollution will be moved somewhere else.

Who would have thought even twenty years ago that nuclear power would today be cheered as the solution to all our problems. It used to be thought that radio active waste, which had half lives of centuries, eliminated practical use of nuclear power.

I suspect all this is a case of what you gain on the roundabouts you lose on the swings.

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #400 on: October 31, 2017, 08:22:21 PM »
Who would have thought even twenty years ago that nuclear power would today be cheered as the solution to all our problems. It used to be thought that radio active waste, which had half lives of centuries, eliminated practical use of nuclear power.
Anyone who thinks that nuclear power is the saviour of mankind is delusional. It is uneconomic to construct (unless you have a government printing the money to do so), it isn't safe, and it will leave a lasting legacy of polluted land and materials that will foul the planet  for centuries. Radioactive isotopes eventually decay, or disintegrate, to harmless materials. Some isotopes decay in hours or even minutes, but others decay very slowly. Strontium-90 and Caesium-137 have half-lives of about 30 years (half the radioactivity will decay in 30 years). Plutonium-239 has a half-life of 24,000 years. We would do less damage to the planet burning stuff.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2017, 08:24:02 PM by Jocko »

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #401 on: November 02, 2017, 07:01:11 AM »
Tesla has just announced its biggest ever quarterly loss, pushing their shares down by 5%. They are failing miserably in ramping up production of the Model 3, and also experiencing problems with their Gigafactory battery production.

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #402 on: November 02, 2017, 09:29:37 AM »
Tesla has just announced its biggest ever quarterly loss, pushing their shares down by 5%. They are failing miserably in ramping up production of the Model 3, and also experiencing problems with their Gigafactory battery production.

This is where the big 'professional' car makers will win out,  they have the design, planning, R&D / testing  and technical ability - not just pie in the sky ideas, crossed fingers and a hand held out for taxpayer subsidies and shareholder money LOL.

I have worked in first tier suppliers plants and car-plants installing automation, and I can tell you car making is a dog-eat-dog industry,  where not only do car brands compete against each other but different plants of the same company compete against each other for quality, efficiency and profitability,  and the losers don't get the new models when they are planned.

Of the 11 initial 'wannabee' makers of autonomous vehicles in USA there are only 6 left,  mainly the large 'old-tech conventional car companies' that silicon valley was 'gonna  blow out of the water with their sheer brainpower' LOL  ??? Making cars is a complicated high volume low margin business, one recall can cost you dearly,  as Tesla will find out real soon.  Sell your shares now if you have any.  Once the 'wheels start to fall off' (literally - see link at bottom of post) Tesla business model, hard headed investors will make rats leaving a sinking ship seem slow,  and his boast of having more cash than GM and Ford will evaporate, then he better hope that his space rockets, pods sucked through tube mass transport etc will keep his company afloat.

Here are some fun photos of Tesla cars where the suspension has failed and / or the wheel has simply decided to go in a different direction to the others (they really need to sort the auto-pilot software out).

https://www.flickr.com/photos/136377865@N05/albums/72157658490111523

One of the comments was 'if Tesla made aircraft, all their models would be grounded by now'.

Tesla may be better offering free vehicle recovery than free charging,  as it seems a Tesla is at its most dangerous when there is some power in the battery to propel the vehicle.

« Last Edit: November 02, 2017, 11:03:35 AM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #403 on: November 03, 2017, 09:03:52 AM »
https://www.wired.com/2017/04/detroit-stomping-silicon-valley-self-driving-car-race/

More bad news for silicon valley boys.

My guess is that having avoided using LIDAR on cost grounds that Tesla will have to start using it (everyone else seems to be) and that will  knock their 'affordable car' dreams on the head.  Cameras just do not cut it in certain situations that humans and Lidar can deal with.

Another reason why AI is not ready yet to replace humans.......

https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/2/16597276/google-ai-image-attacks-adversarial-turtle-rifle-3d-printed

Because AI doesn’t look for patterns and forms the same way humans do. I wrote a bit more about this problem here, but it helps to think of these systems as essentially alien consciousnesses. They are completely devoid of any of the context or knowledge all humans on this planet take for granted. Like, what an animal is or isn’t, or whether something looks heavy or light, or a thousand other factors.

Instead, they pick up on very subtle cues to recognize objects, and often we don’t know what it is they’re picking up on. They might learn to recognize a cat is because it has whiskers (but so does nearly every other animal), or they might think that anything with fur is a cat. Or it could be just when they see seven dark pixels followed by six light ones in a diagonal pattern, that’s a cat. They’ll think this simply because that’s a pattern that fits all the cats they’ve previously seen. But show them one picture of a cat that doesn’t fit this pattern, and they’ll be confused. It’s why these systems are so fragile — and not just vision ones. They don’t have general knowledge about the world.


on actually making cars...........

“With all of that in mind, it’s far easier for an existing car manufacturer to replicate the sort of logistics platform that Uber or Lyft have than it is for those companies to invest in and create the development, manufacturing, and service infrastructure that [original equipment manufacturers] have,” Abuelsamid said. “That’s exactly what’s already happening as all the leading OEMs already invested in or developing their own services.”

Abuelsamid noted that Tesla was ranked pretty far down the “contender” because Elon Musk’s company is “lacking in quality, distribution, financial stability and their [Autopilot] 2.0 hardware will never be more than limited Level 4-capable at best.” In other words, Musk would be advised not to start gloating about his company being valued higher than Ford quite yet.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2017, 10:56:37 AM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

peteo48

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #404 on: November 03, 2017, 12:47:02 PM »
They do seem to be struggling to get the model 3 out and the new 2018 Nissan Leaf looks a much better bet for people at the lower end of the market.

Where Tesla do score, if you can afford one, is in their much better charging network. The current infrastructure for other EVs remains a joke. Yes it's improving but from a very low base. Still too much fiddling with apps in the driving wind and rain for my liking. Even passionate EV advocates post videos of charging nightmares. The current infrastructure is inadequate, unreliable and the mechanism for charging impossibly complex. There is no need for an App - I have asked this question many times on EV forums and nobody can come up with an answer.

I've decided I'll be a laggard in the EV take up - after all I've got 23 years left and I'll be in my 90s when the ban on ICEs comes in (assuming I live that long!!!)

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