Author Topic: Electric cars  (Read 770791 times)

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2235 on: May 24, 2021, 07:59:08 AM »
We are trading away or undermining our energy security as a consequence of green thinking, the energy security of the country has been historically  very high with natural gas , North Sea oil and coal under our control. So secure were  our energy sources, that during the coal miners strike of the early 1980s , the country was energy-secure for a year without any detriment, the country had a 12 month stockpile of coal, I cannot see that today, coal-fired power  generated electricity, probably the cheapest method, is replaced by electricity imported from France,  solar power which has the least availability when our needs  are  greatest,  and we import so much motor  fuel , especially diesel, as we allowed our refineries to close. I support green measures, but when we depend on others, it leads to international  war


Have attached a PDF with a couple of graphs from gridwatch site,  is this the kind of 'reliability'  we can use to run a country ?  You will note that during the coldest months in UK ( October to March ) the solar almost disappears.  Wind just shows up and goes AWOL when it feels like it.  Without the 'quick reaction'  Gas turbine generators we would be having regular 'power outages' in UK,  as bad as any third world country.  The telling phrase in my previous post about China carrying on with coal was 'there are a lot of engineers in Chinese government capable of doing simple calculations'..... and the UK government ? Lawyers and accountants....

« Last Edit: May 24, 2021, 08:04:14 AM by culzean »
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peteo48

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2236 on: May 24, 2021, 10:52:42 AM »
That said there will be "work arounds" in the future including battery storage and, controversially, nuclear (which we already have). We absolutely should not be burning coal.

nowster

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2237 on: May 24, 2021, 11:29:21 AM »
That said there will be "work arounds" in the future including battery storage and, controversially, nuclear (which we already have). We absolutely should not be burning coal.

The UK's nuclear generating capacity has been declining gradually over the last decade or two as the original Magnox reactors reached their design lifetimes and were retired. Building new ones is expensive (without the rush to produce weapons material as a side product) and several contracts have fallen through.

JimSh

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2238 on: May 24, 2021, 11:32:50 AM »
We are trading away or undermining our energy security as a consequence of green thinking, the energy security of the country has been historically  very high with natural gas , North Sea oil and coal under our control. So secure were  our energy sources, that during the coal miners strike of the early 1980s , the country was energy-secure for a year without any detriment, the country had a 12 month stockpile of coal, I cannot see that today, coal-fired power  generated electricity, probably the cheapest method, is replaced by electricity imported from France,  solar power which has the least availability when our needs  are  greatest,  and we import so much motor  fuel , especially diesel, as we allowed our refineries to close. I support green measures, but when we depend on others, it leads to international  war


"Historically " will not give us energy now.
We had high stocks of coal in the 80s because Thatcher wanted to have a reserve of coal for the impending miners' strikes and avoid the power cuts and three day weeks  of the 70s which brought down Heath's government.
https://www.mylearning.org/stories/police-protests-and-public-order/932

We still have supplies of coal oil and natural gas but it is best left underground.
As well as the damage to the environment burning it would do, the pits have been closed, allowed to flood, machinery left to rust, miners dead or too old to work.
Oil fields are being decommissioned. New supplies becoming increasingly inaccessible.

Fully agree, we are allowing our industries to be foreign owned, presumably for a quick fix buck.

Thatcher sold off council houses and now look where we are with social housing.

UK governments have also sold off the profits from North Sea oil instead of investing them in an energy fund like the Norwegians.
It's what the Tories do.
Yet people still keep voting for them.



Have attached a PDF with a couple of graphs from gridwatch site,  is this the kind of 'reliability'  we can use to run a country ?  You will note that during the coldest months in UK ( October to March ) the solar almost disappears.  Wind just shows up and goes AWOL when it feels like it.  Without the 'quick reaction'  Gas turbine generators we would be having regular 'power outages' in UK,  as bad as any third world country.  The telling phrase in my previous post about China carrying on with coal was 'there are a lot of engineers in Chinese government capable of doing simple calculations'.....

What we need is storage for the renewables

and the UK government ? Lawyers and accountants....

Liars , cheats and charlatans
« Last Edit: May 24, 2021, 10:11:23 PM by JimSh »

John Ratsey

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2239 on: May 24, 2021, 12:39:18 PM »
The people working on the small modular reactors claim to be making progress https://www.rolls-royce.com/media/press-releases/2021/17-05-2021-more-power-and-updated-design-revealed-as-nuclear-power-team-targets-first-place.aspx and are targeting an energy cost similar to offshore wind (£50/MWhr = 5p/kWhr). However, if the cost of backup sources was charged against wind generation then it wouldn't be so cheap.

It appears that there's a plan to spend £300M to install 3,550 additional EV chargers https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57225856. That's about about £85k each.
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culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2240 on: May 24, 2021, 01:05:41 PM »
Liars , cheats and charlatans

Not a nice thing to say about SNP
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

JimSh

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2241 on: May 24, 2021, 02:05:14 PM »
Liars , cheats and charlatans

Not a nice thing to say about SNP
Who mentioned SNP?

..... and the UK government ? Lawyers and accountants....


Careful or you'll get us shut down and there's a lot still to be said about electric cars.

« Last Edit: May 24, 2021, 02:11:24 PM by JimSh »

JimSh

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2242 on: May 24, 2021, 03:08:22 PM »
Saw a TV article on extraction of lithium from mica from granite for batteries.

https://cornishstuff.com/2019/09/17/lithium/

Alternatively, if there's any future in aluminium/ graphene batteries there must be a lot of aluminium in Cornish clay.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltaylor/2021/05/13/ev-range-breakthrough-as-new-aluminum-ion-battery-charges-60-times-faster-than-lithium-ion/?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB
« Last Edit: May 24, 2021, 03:42:30 PM by JimSh »

richardfrost

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2243 on: May 25, 2021, 12:30:29 PM »
https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltaylor/2021/05/13/ev-range-breakthrough-as-new-aluminum-ion-battery-charges-60-times-faster-than-lithium-ion/?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB

Developments like the above, and below, point the way to a new way of designing vehicles and journeys. The problem is still in generating the energy in the first place though, and getting it to where it is needed.

Charge as you drive...
https://innovationorigins.com/en/first-charging-highway-for-electric-vehicles-is-coming-to-italy/

nowster

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2244 on: May 25, 2021, 12:43:34 PM »

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2245 on: May 25, 2021, 02:03:21 PM »
Charge as you drive...
https://innovationorigins.com/en/first-charging-highway-for-electric-vehicles-is-coming-to-italy/

Inductive charging,  even when the coils are right next to each other is very inefficient - and the larger the air gap and the more misaligned the coils the worse it gets. This lack of efficiency is bad enough on a toothbrush or phone ( although the losses still add up to a large amount of wasted power across a lot of users ) but on the scale needed to charge a vehicle - well the lack of efficiency would add up to a whole lot more wasted power. Is the electricity from the road free? How to bill users for power consumed is another thing.

https://debugger.medium.com/wireless-charging-is-a-disaster-waiting-to-happen-48afdde70ed9
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richardfrost

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2246 on: May 25, 2021, 02:16:54 PM »
Inductive charging,  even when the coils are right next to each other is very inefficient - and the larger the air gap and the more misaligned the coils the worse it gets. This lack of efficiency is bad enough on a toothbrush or phone ( although the losses still add up to a large amount of wasted power across a lot of users ) but on the scale needed to charge a vehicle - well the lack of efficiency would add up to a whole lot more wasted power. Is the electricity from the road free? How to bill users for power consumed is another thing.

Did you read the article? Think you might have skimmed it as I think it deals with your questions.

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2247 on: May 25, 2021, 02:30:00 PM »
Inductive charging,  even when the coils are right next to each other is very inefficient - and the larger the air gap and the more misaligned the coils the worse it gets. This lack of efficiency is bad enough on a toothbrush or phone ( although the losses still add up to a large amount of wasted power across a lot of users ) but on the scale needed to charge a vehicle - well the lack of efficiency would add up to a whole lot more wasted power. Is the electricity from the road free? How to bill users for power consumed is another thing.

Did you read the article? Think you might have skimmed it as I think it deals with your questions.

Where did it answer questions in body of article - I didn't follow any links.  Imagine the sheer cost of rolling this out ( is every road going to be a toll road in future ) - the closer the coils are to surface of the road the more efficient it would be LOL, but would they need to be replaced every time the road gets resurfaced,  what is the effect of water / snow on the road ( it may well melt the snow ) that would make it even less efficient, especially if higher frequencies are used.  Would the system affect pacemakers and hearing aids, car radios,  or even the body tissue of anyone walking across the road surface, how about motorcycle riders who do not have a faraday cage of the metal car body around them ? 
« Last Edit: May 25, 2021, 02:32:25 PM by culzean »
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JimSh

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2248 on: May 26, 2021, 09:16:02 AM »
Yes. It seems that that one is a non-starter.

I think there is a lot of mileage in vehicle to grid chargers which enable the electric car to become part of the solution to the problem of energy supply rather than part of the problem.
For the last year my car has been quietly rusting away on my driveway doing nothing and even in normal times most vehicles spend the vast proportion of their lives parked outside houses, offices, factories or railway stations
If they were electric vehicles they could be being used as portable power walls.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=V2g+utube&&view=detail&mid=105C617CBF6ED2732FAF105C617CBF6ED2732FAF&&FORM=VRDGAR&ru=%2Fvideos%2Fsearch%3Fq%3DV2g%2Butube%26%26FORM%3DVDVVXX

https://www.ovoenergy.com/guides/electric-cars/vehicle-to-grid-technology.html

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=V2g+utube&docid=608035148647129549&mid=363204C56110A0D9788D363204C56110A0D9788D&view=detail&FORM=VIRE

Edit added another utube video
« Last Edit: May 26, 2021, 09:28:16 AM by JimSh »

madasafish

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2249 on: May 26, 2021, 11:53:33 AM »
Using cars as portable power packs involve huge privacy issues : tracking where you stopped etc, ensuring your account is not hacked, ensuring your account is credited with correct amounts etc.
As the industry cannot agree a standardised connection system, it is going to take decades.

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