Author Topic: Electric cars  (Read 770770 times)

Westy36

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1830 on: December 29, 2020, 04:30:16 PM »
Because that Gordon Brown fellow reduced it to the minimum 5% in 1997, it had been 8% prior to that. The Conservative government at the time was defeated during the 1995 budget debate on their intention to raise VAT on domestic fuel to 17.5%

Now we are no longer members of the EU, we could now reduce VAT on fuel to zero... as was very vocally promised by Messrs Gove and Johnson back in 2016.

Interesting to learn the history. Back in the 90's I had no interest in these things. Very different today mind.

I can see in 10-15 yrs time, when lots of EV's are in use, energy VAT being increased as the revenue from petrol/diesel starts dropping of. There will be a fiscal shortfall to be covered somehow.

I learnt today about "vehicle to grid" V2G trials. So, your EVs battery becoming part of the grid for storage and supply purposes. I don't know a whole lot about EV batteries, but I do understand that charging them up over time reduces their capacity. I don't think I would be happy to have my EV's battery used in such a way. Elon Musk comments https://thedriven.io/2020/09/23/musk-downplays-vehicle-to-grid-technology-it-has-lower-utility-than-you-think/ 

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1831 on: December 29, 2020, 06:51:46 PM »
Because that Gordon Brown fellow reduced it to the minimum 5% in 1997, it had been 8% prior to that. The Conservative government at the time was defeated during the 1995 budget debate on their intention to raise VAT on domestic fuel to 17.5%

Now we are no longer members of the EU, we could now reduce VAT on fuel to zero... as was very vocally promised by Messrs Gove and Johnson back in 2016.
Y:
Interesting to learn the history. Back in the 90's I had no interest in these things. Very different today mind.

I can see in 10-15 yrs time, when lots of EV's are in use, energy VAT being increased as the revenue from petrol/diesel starts dropping of. There will be a fiscal shortfall to be covered somehow.

I learnt today about "vehicle to grid" V2G trials. So, your EVs battery becoming part of the grid for storage and supply purposes. I don't know a whole lot about EV batteries, but I do understand that charging them up over time reduces their capacity. I don't think I would be happy to have my EV's battery used in such a way. Elon Musk comments https://thedriven.io/2020/09/23/musk-downplays-vehicle-to-grid-technology-it-has-lower-utility-than-you-think/

Raising VAT on electricity will affect everyone who uses it, it is just not feasible - it will be seen as another poll tax..The revenue raiser will be a chip in the vehicle and road pricing per mile, and rate will depend on whether road is rural or urban.. When enough people have electric cars they may well be included in road tax net... but government will not spring that one just yet, don't want to scare people off..

Using vehicle batteries is another fudge by governments, a cheap way of grid storage, but as you say every charge / discharge cycle uses up battery life.

« Last Edit: December 29, 2020, 06:56:24 PM by culzean »
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Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1832 on: December 29, 2020, 07:03:50 PM »
According to the two car dealers, the Tesla downloads are brilliant. The download they discuss allow drivers of the four-wheel-drive versions to set the torque between the front and rear wheels, depending on taste. Not something that the average driver would want to play with but great for the enthusiast. Set it for predominately front wheels, 50:50 or 70% rear wheels, whatever is required.

TiJazz

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1833 on: December 30, 2020, 12:29:00 AM »
So here’s my journey from EV to Jazz as promised:

After a couple of years without a car, I chose a Renault Zoe 22kWh when the time came in late 2018. After all, the future was electric right? The Renault dealer said it’d do 90-100 odd miles, and I knew there was a charger at my local gym so I could fill it up once a week.

At this time, my previous car was a manual Fiat 500 - which was trash - so the Zoe blew my mind at first with its smooth drive and toys (a reversing camera and speed limiter!!)

However... It quickly became apparent that total reliance on one single place to fill up my car wasn’t the greatest idea - there was always the worry that the charger would be out of service or there’d be a petrol car parked in the space, so I had to charge at really odd times like early on a Sunday etc.

The bigger issue was that the real world range was about 70 miles, unless I drove very slowly indeed. So I tried that. The problem is that when you drive in the left lane of a dual carriageway at 60mph, people love to pull out on you at junctions. So that wasn’t great.

Thankfully as it turns out, we didn’t really need a car at the time - so we sold up.

Interestingly enough, the gym charger stopped working shortly afterwards and still has not been fixed 18 months later - I would have been screwed had I kept Zoe, as there are no other nearby working chargers (there are a few broken ones).

After a period of renting EVs for various trips (Zoe 40, e Golf, Model S) where we made use of destination charging, my Tesla Model 3 order finally arrived in late 2019 through a subscription service.

Around this time, we moved somewhere with at-home charging. The best electric car on the market and home charging - what could be better?

Many, many things as it turns out. The “vampire drain” with the Tesla was insane. It would consume kWh after kWh for no real reason while parked and plugged in, even with the recommended sleep settings.

Additionally, the car itself was hugely unreliable. Random and total camera/sensor and nav system failures were commonplace, as well as a flaky update process (I once spent an hour on the phone to Tesla trying to get it to update), and occasional random error messages on startup that seemed to appear and disappeared with lunar cycles or something(!)

The home charger also started playing up, sometimes ignoring my RFID card (as apartment charging, it was owned and operated by a third party) and refusing to start a charge.

So now I had an unreliable car and an unreliable charger!

The car finally embarrassed itself once too often by ploughing into a solid object on autopilot, so after a brief call to the subscription company along the lines of “I’m cancelling my subscription, come and collect your heap”, I (literally) walked away and vowed to stay away from Tesla’s.

Another couple of EV rentals and test drives followed - a Zoe ZE50 and Honda E (crazy overpriced!) were the highlights - but mostly we Uber’d places.

Unfortunately it’s now well into 2020... so Uber drivers had started bathing their car interiors in chlorine, then sealing you behind a plastic screen to choke on it - still asking for 5 stars at the end of the trip, of course (assuming you were still alive)!

I figured it was time to buy another car. The MG eZS had impressed me greatly on a test drive, so I duly picked up a pre reg model with a 1 week delivery time.

The MG was a fantastic car - great performance, features, and range for the price.

Unfortunately, the home charger was still sporadically refusing to start a charge.

Despite endless calls and emails, nobody wanted to take responsibility and fix it - so I gave an ultimatum that if things weren’t sorted in a week, I’d “claim” the charger digitally and reconfigure it myself - funnily enough, things then seemed to improve for a while...

But wait, there’s more!

The final straw came when the charger developed a new fault of stopping midway through a charge. A call to the charging company revealed that they no longer had any interest in talking to me (guess they were bored of me asking them to fix it). Building management were as clueless as ever.

So the next day I went to Honda, asked them to slap some number plates on that new Jazz Crosstar they had sitting outside, and collected it a few days later in exchange for the MG.

The Jazz Crosstar is familiar to me - my old man has one - and I’d always said it would be my first choice if I needed a hybrid. The smoothness of electric motor drive, coupled with the reliability of fossil fuel infrastructure and a ~500 mile range, is perfect for today’s world IMO.

I’m also very impressed with the overall quality - whereas with an EV, a lot of the car’s cost is clearly the batteries. For example, the Tesla has the interior and build quality of a sub-£20k car, and the additional £20k of batteries is what makes it £40k. Likewise, the MG is a £12k car with £12k of batteries etc.

With the Jazz, you can tell most of the cost is the car itself, with a few grand of hybrid tech and a £200 battery on top.

In conclusion, I hope to keep the Jazz for a good while! Would I return to EV? In 5-10 years perhaps, when the tech has matured into something robust and reliable.

Tldr:
Despite manufacturer marketing suggesting otherwise, the main barriers to electric car ownership are the same as they were a decade ago - price, range, and availability/reliability of charging.

Also, Tesla’s are rubbish.

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1834 on: December 30, 2020, 06:57:40 AM »
Your Tesla certainly sounds like it. So other than your Tesla the only fly in the ointment appeared to be third party chargers. I intend to have my own charger in my drive (when I move, hopefully sometime soon). As an OAP, my mileage by then will only be a handful of miles a week (probably even a Granny lead would meet my charging requirements!). From your experience would an EV suit me. I am currently looking at the MG5 EV.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2020, 09:24:01 AM by Jocko »

sparky Paul

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1835 on: December 30, 2020, 10:04:44 AM »
I'm pretty sure I wouldn't even entertain the idea of an EV if I couldn't charge it at home, from my own electricity supply.

As soon as you start using third party charging networks, the running cost advantages soon evaporate - and that's without the consideration of the inconvenience, and the downright disaster of being stuck at a non-working charger.

However, if you can charge from home and use the range available from there for the vast majority of your driving, as I almost certainly could, then I see no problem. Even if you were forced to use it for a longer journey on occasions, the motorway charging infrastructure is much more accessible, properly maintained and reliable.

Bottom line, I would love an EV for all the day to day running about, it would charge at home on cheap night rate electric, and I'm sure it would fit in with our lifestyle... but we run two cars, and I would keep the big diesel for the long journeys, certainly for now.

peteo48

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1836 on: December 30, 2020, 10:23:29 AM »
Great summary of your EV experience TiJazz. This is really helpful because it balances out the "best thing since sliced bread" attitude of many, not all, but many EV drivers.

The Tesla reliability issue is most definitely a thing. James and Kate did a video on YouTube where James was complaining at some length about reliability issues to the point that he just wanted rid of the thing. It was a model 3.

I think things will be very different even in 5 years from now. My own situation is frustrating in that even an old Nissan Leaf would do most of my stuff - it's those half dozen or so trips a year where only a guaranteed, no compromise 200 miles range would do. The infrastructure is not even close to being adequate at the moment.

Westy36

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1837 on: December 30, 2020, 10:29:40 AM »
On Autotrader today, there are 400 Tesla examples for sale. A very small number of vehicles, and having read TiJazz review and others, I'm not tempted. I would love a drive in one to experience the acceleration, but I wont be owning one.

Autotrader today did throw up a real world possibility howewver. An MG ZS ev. Brand new with a 7 year warranty for just under £19000.

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/new/202009083466741?onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly%20New&onesearchad=Used&postcode=ip11aa&advertising-location=at_cars&include-delivery-option=on&newCarHasDeal=on&radius=1500&fuel-type=Electric&sort=price-asc&page=1

It's the used marked I will be in when the EV time arrives. Things will need to change a lot. I've just logged into my Manheim Auctions account, and at the moment out of the 8000+ cars they have listed, > 0.5% are electric cars. Mostly Nissan Leaf and Renault Zoe.

sparky Paul

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1838 on: December 30, 2020, 11:09:45 AM »
The Tesla model 3 certainly gets some flak for build quality and reliability, but I get the impression that model S owners are much more content on the whole, and you do see cars with big mileages on them. Despite all the problems that customers have with the cars, I still think it's remarkable what Tesla have achieved in such a short space of time. After all, look at some of the rubbish that the big auto makers have churned out over the years, some right lemons.

However, when the Japanese design and build something, we know that they invariably do it well. The Nissan Leaf is really well put together, and on the whole, has been a paragon of reliability - especially when compared to the Tesla. I have this sneaking feeling that the Chinese are coming, and I think the quality will be there too... just look at the Xpeng P7.

Cars like the MG EVs are great value, if you can manage with the slightly restricted range of the current cars, although a new ZS is currently being introduced to other markets with a bigger battery and much better range. I do wonder if China is going to corner the cheaper end of the market, there seems to be a gaping hole being left by the established auto makers, who still seem to see this as a niche market, with companies like Honda building cars with niche appeal.

That's not to say that China will neglect the premium sector. I think Tesla are going to have real problems with companies like Xpeng, unless they get their act together, and soon.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2020, 11:13:54 AM by sparky Paul »

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1839 on: December 30, 2020, 11:20:05 AM »
MG5 has a quoted range of 214 miles and a city range of 276 miles. From family estate.

sparky Paul

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1840 on: December 30, 2020, 12:42:25 PM »
MG5 has a quoted range of 214 miles and a city range of 276 miles. From family estate.

The MG 5 is a great car for the money, you know what a fan I am, but I was really referring more to the MG ZS. I think the official range is 163 miles, and the site you linked to earlier quotes a real life range of 135 miles, and 175 miles for the MG 5.

Now, 135 miles would probably be enough for the vast majority of our daily driving, and I would love one as a daily driver, but I can see it being problematic for the many owners who have access to only one car. If public transport was better, maybe it wouldn't be such an issue, but sub-200 miles range in some weathers just doesn't cut it for many people.

For comparison, my diesel estate car will comfortably do 800 motorway miles on a full tank, 900 if you're very careful.

TiJazz

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1841 on: December 30, 2020, 12:51:18 PM »
I would absolutely recommend an MG if you have reliable home charging - that is, a “dumb” 7kw charger or a 3 pin. I wouldn’t touch the flaky “smart” rubbish.

Re the Model S, the rental I had experienced exactly the same sensor suite and nav failures as my Model 3 - and the S was the £90k 100D model!

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1842 on: December 30, 2020, 03:00:34 PM »
the site you linked to earlier quotes a real life range of 135 miles, and 175 miles for the MG 5.
The EV database has not tested it, and the figure is their estimate. The following pertains to the WLTP figures.

MG5 EV has a WLTP approved combined range of 214 miles in normal day-to-day use. This rises to 276 miles if the car is used solely for urban driving, as confirmed by the WLTP City driving cycle.

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1843 on: December 31, 2020, 09:39:00 AM »
This is the one for me. And definitely in the Dynamic Red.


sparky Paul

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1844 on: December 31, 2020, 09:50:43 AM »
This is the one for me. And definitely in the Dynamic Red.

I think Jocko's hooked  ;D

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