Author Topic: Autonomous vehicles.  (Read 7801 times)

madasafish

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Re: Autonomous vehicles.
« Reply #45 on: March 22, 2018, 04:17:51 PM »
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43497364

Dashcam footage of the crash is damning  ... lots of time to brake..

ColinB

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Re: Autonomous vehicles.
« Reply #46 on: March 22, 2018, 04:27:48 PM »
So the pedestrian came out of the shadows and couldnít be avoided ? But isnít the hype about AVs supposed to be all about them being safer than human drivers ? I could believe a human would have had difficulty seeing someone in poor light, but surely the carís lidar sensors arenít affected by shadows, and arenít they supposed to be constantly scanning for hazards ?
The shadows could well have been cast by the LIDAR, not necessarily light shadows from the sun or street lighting.
The report that provoked my comment makes it clear that the Police Chief was commenting on video of the accident, so references to "shadows" must relate to shadows she could see on that video, rather than areas where the LIDAR was obstructed. Although I wouldn't disagree with your conclusions that the AV technology has a long way to go yet.

One thing that strikes me about this whole AV business is that we are told that the reason for developing them is road safety. That is, there is an intent that AVs will be safer and will therefore reduce road deaths. In order to do that the AV must not only match, but must out-perform, the human driver. If the technology had reached that level, we might reasonably expect the robot to have avoided the accident even if a human couldn't. Clearly Uber haven't reached that level of maturity yet.


culzean

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Re: Autonomous vehicles.
« Reply #47 on: March 22, 2018, 05:20:22 PM »
One thing that strikes me about this whole AV business is that we are told that the reason for developing them is road safety. That is, there is an intent that AVs will be safer and will therefore reduce road deaths. In order to do that the AV must not only match, but must out-perform, the human driver. If the technology had reached that level, we might reasonably expect the robot to have avoided the accident even if a human couldn't. Clearly Uber haven't reached that level of maturity yet.

The whole AV thing is about economics, it is about getting rid of the driver who is the most costly thing, but dressing it up as road safety to make it more palatable.  It will fool a lot of people and put vehicles into the hands of big tech companies,  and because less people will learn to drive their business model will be secure for the future.

It was the same with robots in industry,  having a few highly trained programmers and  replacing skilled operators with 'machine loaders' (paid much less and could who could easily be moved between robot cells) to run things makes a lot of economic sense, and made life harder for trade unions and easier for businesses because they could now just grab someone off the street or from an agency and train them in an hour to load a machine.   But as one operator said to me when we had installed robots in their car plant 'that robot will never buy a car' (or anything else really),  can't argue with their logic.

One in every eight jobs in USA may disappear due to AV.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2018, 08:07:16 PM by culzean »
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ColinB

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Re: Autonomous vehicles.
« Reply #48 on: March 23, 2018, 10:16:08 AM »
The whole AV thing is about economics, it is about getting rid of the driver who is the most costly thing, but dressing it up as road safety to make it more palatable.

Actually, the UK government position is largely based around safety. Have a look at Section 1.2 of this:
http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7965/CBP-7965.pdf
Other benefits are suggested, including increased mobility for people who currently can't drive, improved productivity (you can do something else whilst in the car), reduced congestion (by allowing vehicles to travel closer together ... the jury's out on that one). Doubtless individual companies (Uber, Stobart, etc) will exploit the possibilities and reduce their costs by getting rid of their drivers, but the need for the robots to be better than humans in order to be safer still holds.

culzean

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Re: Autonomous vehicles.
« Reply #49 on: March 23, 2018, 10:44:33 AM »
The whole AV thing is about economics, it is about getting rid of the driver who is the most costly thing, but dressing it up as road safety to make it more palatable.

Actually, the UK government position is largely based around safety. Have a look at Section 1.2 of this:
http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7965/CBP-7965.pdf
Other benefits are suggested, including increased mobility for people who currently can't drive, improved productivity (you can do something else whilst in the car), reduced congestion (by allowing vehicles to travel closer together ... the jury's out on that one). Doubtless individual companies (Uber, Stobart, etc) will exploit the possibilities and reduce their costs by getting rid of their drivers, but the need for the robots to be better than humans in order to be safer still holds.

Yeah,  right   :-X   I am sure the saving of 35%+ of running costs by ditching the driver is right at the back of the queue when business looks at AV, they are obviously more interested in 'perceived' safety aspects.    People can work on trains, and business people polled said they prefer to work on the train as less distractions than at work,  but government still willing to pay £100 Billion + of our money to build HS2 vanity project and push out the London commuter belt even further. What they will not cough up is funding to lengthen platforms at existing stations to accept longer trains to increase capacity on existing routes.

British workers already work some of the longest hours in the EU and it may seem to business that here is an opportunity to cram even more (unpaid) hours into the working day.  AV may well increase congestion as they will be running about empty sometimes and people may well take the opportunity to make longer commutes if they don't have to drive,  there will also be peak times when many more vehicles will be needed than for the rest of the day.

section 4 of the document in your link notes that 'road infrastructure will have to be maintained to a much higher standard than at present' - but who will pay the bills if 1 in 8 people at least will be rendered unemployed by new tech.  It also talks about 'segregating CAV traffic from normal traffic' -  building roads especially for CAV,  even more expense - businesses will be saving money but the taxpayer (and less of them) will be footing the bills for extra special road maintenance and special roads. It has shades of low wage employers like Amazon being subsidised by taxpayer via tax credits and DHSS support for low earners.

Putting our transport option in the hands of a few large tech companies is a not a wise thing to do.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2018, 05:47:04 PM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

richardfrost

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Re: Autonomous vehicles.
« Reply #50 on: March 23, 2018, 01:10:55 PM »
British workers already work some of the longest hours in the world

No they don't. Far from it, according to the OECD.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/maps-and-graphics/nationalities-that-work-the-longest-hours/

culzean

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Re: Autonomous vehicles.
« Reply #51 on: March 23, 2018, 02:00:46 PM »
British workers already work some of the longest hours in the world

No they don't. Far from it, according to the OECD.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/maps-and-graphics/nationalities-that-work-the-longest-hours/

maybe I should have specified 'in EU'
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

auntyneddy

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Re: Autonomous vehicles.
« Reply #52 on: March 24, 2018, 11:32:32 AM »
I did ask a question re the bicycle when this was first posted and I see that it now does get a mention. Also a cynical remark which I endorse whole heartily about the poor, more so in the USA. On many US soaps when a 'bag' lady is on the scene they are dismissed. The victim was presumably wheeling the cycle, by the plastic bags on the bike, it would suggest She was an unfortunate in that She was possibly homeless. I mention this as it is unlikely her bike was carbon fibre. It beggars belief that a killing instrument ( car) is let loose on the road without a driver and it could not pick up the signal from a metal bike, let alone a human being, which this Lady was despite her circumstances. We are constantly told that a computer can respond in milliseconds, so why did the car not swerve/stop etc. At the moment on TV is an ad for some super dooper Audi, that can pick up signals from the front side up/down and all around. It even senses rough surfaces. I don't know if it senses a pedestrian breaking wind. YET an autonomous vehicle could not detect a human and a piece of metal.  Perhaps VAG and the makers of the autonomous car ought to get together.
Sorry for the rant but Mr Trump is trying to take away medicare from the poor, perhaps this is a dastardly plot to get rid of them all together. All these AIDS are there to help not control our lives. Digressing a quote from my Computer Active,' Students are finding it so hard to kick their phone addiction they are being rewarded for not using it'  These are our brains of tomorrow, perhaps that why the autonomous car didn't see the woman because nobody programmed such an event in. If they can't do without the plastic glued to their ear what hope is there in the world for the simple minded such as I.

sparky Paul

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Re: Autonomous vehicles.
« Reply #53 on: March 24, 2018, 03:40:15 PM »
If they can't do without the plastic glued to their ear what hope is there in the world for the simple minded such as I.

Have you seen them coming out of schools at turning out time? It's like the zombie apocalypse.

auntyneddy

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Re: Autonomous vehicles.
« Reply #54 on: March 25, 2018, 03:22:17 PM »
Getting off subject but applicable: Observed, children playing in a park. That is using their phones/tablets etc. It has been reported that it has been witnessed that children were unable to turn the pages in a book ( the printed variety) Will anybody rescue Homo Sapien from this plague?
It is an aid NOT a GOD.

madasafish

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Re: Autonomous vehicles.
« Reply #55 on: March 25, 2018, 04:39:02 PM »
All you are commenting on is Darwinsim in action.

auntyneddy

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Re: Autonomous vehicles.
« Reply #56 on: March 26, 2018, 02:47:16 PM »
I am sorry to disagree. The mobile phone was I presume merely something to improve on the phone in ones home. All that has happened is some very clever people have convinced the masses that they MUST have one and that one MUST be the latest.ie 5G. We even now have phones that check the contents of your fridge not only tells you the sell by date but so you know what to buy. My Wife looks in the fridge just before we go shopping and buys what she wants. As to sell by dates, why have we got eyes? Another gem is that councils will know when to empty your bins. So when you bin is full your council will come along and empty it. Cloud cuckoo land comes to mind.We have just been told we will be down to fortnightly collections.
Darwinism is progress by evolution. All these phones do and the rest of the stuff we are being told we need is making Homo Sapien even more lazy. A gem from the local government people: The roads are being pounded by the number of home delivery vehicles. Sorry, I thought online shopping was killing the high street shop. How did we get there? Bus /Car nobody thought of the number of passenger miles saved.
Unfortunately I would suggest that man having too much time on his hands makes man dangerous. Is it' Idle hands makes devils work?'
Yes perhaps extreme but a point of view!

culzean

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Re: Autonomous vehicles.
« Reply #57 on: March 27, 2018, 05:53:32 PM »
https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/266158-video-tempe-crash-public-looks-really-bad-uber-driver

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/03/video-suggests-huge-problems-with-ubers-driverless-car-program/

Here is a damning article on pedestrian death in Tempe, Arizona involving Uber system,  also says that the vehicle in question was only licensed to 30mph.

Wonder how many times Uber supervisors have had to intervene during the trails being carried out,  more information
may now be legally forced out of Uber. 
« Last Edit: March 27, 2018, 08:17:23 PM by culzean »
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VicW

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Re: Autonomous vehicles.
« Reply #58 on: March 31, 2018, 01:41:26 PM »
Here's another one.
What speed was the Tesla doing to cause that much damage, the whole of the front of the car is missing.
The emergency services would have cut the roof off if needed for rescue.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43604440

Vic.

ColinB

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Re: Autonomous vehicles.
« Reply #59 on: April 17, 2018, 09:10:00 AM »
Discussion on this seems to have gone dead, so here's a contribution.

There's been a project running in the Bristol area for some time called Venturer, which involves running some impressively chunky-looking AVs on both private and public roads, see this: http://www.venturer-cars.com/. As well as the usual academic & techie experts the consortium includes an insurance company (AXA) and lawyers (Burges Salmon), who are considering the legal and liability issues associated with AVs. They've just published a progress report with current thoughts about this, available here:
https://www.axa.co.uk/uploadedFiles/Content/Newsroom_v2/Media_Resources/Reports_and_Publications/Downloads/Driverless_Cars/VENTURER_Insurance_and_Legal_Report_2018.pdf

For anyone who saw the item in yesterday's Times, this is the source data for that piece. It's 19 pages but readable and looks to be a thoughtful and well-balanced piece of work. It majors on the problems associated with "handover" between an AV and a driver when the computer gets into trouble (eg the look on the face of the driver just before impact in the recent Uber incident in Arizona). There's even a suggestion that some kind of driver's licence will still be needed, which could be a bit of an issue for those hoping that AVs will enable travel for people currently unable to drive (unaccompanied minors, visually handicapped, elderly, etc). There are no hard and fast conclusions about how to deal with the handover problem (like all good consultant's reports, more work is needed), but it does provide interesting food for thought.

Enjoy.

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