Author Topic: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.  (Read 15773 times)

John Ratsey

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Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
« Reply #30 on: February 18, 2018, 09:12:15 PM »
My fix would be to fit a rear sensor which detects any approaching vehicle. Then, after, say, 5 seconds of the brake lights being on, they would be turned off unless an approaching vehicle is detected. After that vehicle has stopped then the brake lights would be turned off again. Suitable hardware is already fitted to look forward and check for approaching objects.
2022 HR-V Elegance, previously 2020 Jazz Crosstar

Dayjo

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Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
« Reply #31 on: February 18, 2018, 09:19:40 PM »
Over many years. I was thinking, even more simple. A 10 second timer, just to turn off the brake lights.......
David.
Drive them 'til the roads wear out.......

Jocko

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Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
« Reply #32 on: February 18, 2018, 09:58:36 PM »
Rule 114 of the Highway Code says you must not "use any lights in a way which would dazzle or cause discomfort to other road users, including pedestrians, cyclists and horse riders" but I think, as this is enshrined in law (RVLR reg 27), it refers to headlights, fog lights etc. If they were talking about brake lights then they would be specified, as are rear fog lamps and reversing lamps. Not just lumped in under Item 11, Any other lamp.
I have never been dazzles by brake lights, not even the high level ones that stretch right across the top of the rear screen, and I have a cataract in one eye. Red light does not destroy night vision. Rhodopsin in the human rods is insensitive to the longer red wavelengths, so traditionally many people use red light to help preserve night vision. Red light only slowly depletes the rhodopsin stores in the rods, and instead is viewed by the red sensitive cone cells. That is the reason the bridge of a ship or the flight deck of an aircraft is illuminated by red lights.

peteo48

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Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
« Reply #33 on: February 18, 2018, 10:54:53 PM »
Because if I stop at the lights, shift into neutral, the auto stop won't work. I would have to manually restart the engine.
Yes it will. As I have already pointed out selecting neutral does not restart the engine. Nor does it interfere with idle stop in any other way. The engine will restart perfectly well if you release the footbrake, move the gear selector to any other position or adjust the steering wheel.

I did actually email Honda about this shortly after I got the car however their response was pathetic. They just reiterated what the manual said about idle stop, completely failing to address my concerns.

But..as I noted - not applying the handbrake is endemic these days. Almost no-one bothers to take their foot off the foot brake when stationary. It's possible that the vast majority of drivers are now driving automatics but I doubt it. It's valid to complain about the design of idle stop but choosing not to avail yourself of it or suffering the hassle of manually switching off seems silly. One less set of brake lights in a traffic queue is not going to make any difference.

As for the law it makes sense to me. As another poster said: The rule is that you mustn't dazzle other users with your brake lights but if properly fitted brake lights are designed not to dazzle there is no problem. I can honestly say that brake lights in my eyes have never been anything other than a minor irritation. Anyone being genuinely dazzled is either behind a car with defective lights or needs to see an optician.

You are right - got myself a bit mixed up! As soon as you take your foot off the footbrake, once the engine has stopped, it will start again.

Auto idle stop works excellently on a manual because the engine restarts when you depress the clutch. At lights you can go into neutral, handbrake on and rest your legs. In an automatic you have to exercise firm downward pressure on the brake pedal to stop the thing from restarting thus tiring your right leg and annoying following vehicles.

They need a major rethink to allow you to go into neutral and take your foot off the brake, put the handbrake on and then restart the engine - perhaps with the accelerator.

Or maybe auto idle stop systems are a bad idea full stop - especially on automatics. No wonder many people turn them off.

Downsizer

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Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
« Reply #34 on: February 18, 2018, 10:59:27 PM »
22 posts in one thread in one day - 23 now.  Is this a record?  Perhaps because it's Sunday....

ColinS

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Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
« Reply #35 on: February 19, 2018, 07:48:12 AM »
Auto idle stop works excellently on a manual because the engine restarts when you depress the clutch. At lights you can go into neutral, handbrake on and rest your legs. In an automatic you have to exercise firm downward pressure on the brake pedal to stop the thing from restarting thus tiring your right leg and annoying following vehicles.

They need a major rethink to allow you to go into neutral and take your foot off the brake, put the handbrake on and then restart the engine - perhaps with the accelerator.
Absolutely agree!

andruec

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Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
« Reply #36 on: February 19, 2018, 08:51:19 AM »
They need a major rethink to allow you to go into neutral and take your foot off the brake, put the handbrake on and then restart the engine - perhaps with the accelerator.
I'd like it if they 'allowed' us to release the foot brake in neutral with the handbrake on. That's something I would certainly revert to doing.
Quote
Or maybe auto idle stop systems are a bad idea full stop - especially on automatics. No wonder many people turn them off.
No, I think they work fine for most people as is. As I've noted most people do not 'select neutral, engage the handbrake and release the foot brake'. Whether they are driving automatics or manuals I don't know but it is normal for vehicles of all types these days to sit at a traffic light with their brake lights glowing. Drivers doing 'the right thing' are very much in the minority these days.

What intrigues me is why Honda in particular have implemented I/S this way for their automatics. Their system obviously can react to gear selection to restart the engine so all it would take would be for an extra bit of logic that said 'don't restart if in neutral'. One explanation I can think of is that they want to discourage automatic drivers from exiting the vehicle unless it's in park but that's tenuous.

peteo48

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Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
« Reply #37 on: February 20, 2018, 12:51:54 PM »
Done my own opinion survey over the last few days!

1) Brother - BMW 4 series - never uses handbrake except in Park. At lights, always foot on the footbrake.
2) Friend - Mercedes Coupe of some sort - never uses handbrake but hates stop start and always turns it off.
3) Neighbour - Honda Jazz 1.3 EX CVT - not used handbrake "for years." Incidentally the trips he does are so short the auto idle stop hasn't worked once yet but he leaves it on.
4) Former work colleague - Honda Civic 1.8 auto (I assume CVT) - what's a handbrake lol!

Advice from dealer - don't use handbrake at all except when car parked up.

Looks like brake lights blinding people at the lights is here to stay. Most people seem to think the idea of going into neutral in an automatic is a bit eccentric. As does the American chap who has a YouTube Channel - Engineering Explained. 5 tips on driving automatics - tip 4 - don't use neutral at a stop light.

Jocko

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Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
« Reply #38 on: February 20, 2018, 01:34:13 PM »
25 years driving automatics and Neutral was only the space between Drive and Reverse. Started in Park, put it in Drive, drove to where I was going, stuck it in Park and switched off. I did use my handbrake at lights though, never ever had problems with creep.

andruec

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Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
« Reply #39 on: February 20, 2018, 01:37:25 PM »
And the Wikipedia article seems - at a quick glance - not to mention any use other than when parking, emergencies, drifting and performing handbrake turns.

 :'(
« Last Edit: February 20, 2018, 01:39:25 PM by andruec »

Dayjo

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Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
« Reply #40 on: February 20, 2018, 01:46:52 PM »
Auto. Stopped. In gear. The car is trying to creep. Wasting fuel/ wearing whatever, "clutch", it is pushing against.

In neutral. All components are spinning freely. No friction........

David.
Drive them 'til the roads wear out.......

Jocko

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Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
« Reply #41 on: February 20, 2018, 02:09:34 PM »
Auto. Stopped. In gear. The car is trying to creep. Wasting fuel/ wearing whatever, "clutch", it is pushing against.

In neutral. All components are spinning freely. No friction........
The engine is using fuel but it is running at tickover speed. As for "clutch" this is just fluid being spun between vaned plates. At tickover only the input plate is turning, even less than in a gearbox in manual. You can spin it for ever and it won't wear.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5G2zQ_3xTc

The lock up clutch on the Cavalier and Volvo S40 only came in at 50 mph. The Carlton didn't have one.

peteo48

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Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
« Reply #42 on: February 20, 2018, 03:00:48 PM »

Just for info - the bit about leaving your car in drive at a stop light is about 7 minutes in.

ColinB

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Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
« Reply #43 on: February 20, 2018, 04:07:37 PM »
Advice from dealer - don't use handbrake at all except when car parked up.
Sounds astonishing to me. Any driving instructors on here care to comment on what is actually taught about use of the handbrake these days ?

I guess another factor here is you used to have to use the handbrake regularly for hill starts. Nowadays, with the prevalence of hill start assist, you don't need to so never get into that habit.

peteo48

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Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
« Reply #44 on: February 20, 2018, 04:46:01 PM »
Advice from dealer - don't use handbrake at all except when car parked up.
Sounds astonishing to me. Any driving instructors on here care to comment on what is actually taught about use of the handbrake these days ?

I guess another factor here is you used to have to use the handbrake regularly for hill starts. Nowadays, with the prevalence of hill start assist, you don't need to so never get into that habit.

I'm pretty sure that, in a manual car, the instructions will be to use the handbrake and go into neutral. The spanner in the works here, it seems to me, is stop start systems which operate via the footbrake on most automatics. The engine cuts out when the car comes to a stop with your foot on the footbrake. As soon as you lift your foot off the footbrake, the engine will restart again. In short, if you want to use the stop start system in an automatic, you must use the footbrake at all times and keep the footbrake engaged or the car will simply start again.

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