Brexit and the scare mongers

[JimSh]

Hi,
 I’ve been lurking on this site for about a year since I bought a second hand Jazz. (2014 plate ES plus).
I’ve always been impressed by the depth of knowledge and experience  on the site on matters relating to cars and other things. I’ve enjoyed reading the anecdotes from the past.
So it gave me a great surprise when I came upon this Brexit related thread and read most of the comments.
I’m strictly in the remainer camp and can foresee nothing other than an unmitigated disaster from this totally unnecessary exercise. The document released today makes grim reading. See especially P16

https://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/Exiting-the-European-Union/17-19/Cross-Whitehall-briefing/EU-Exit-Analysis-Cross-Whitehall-Briefing.pdf

Hope you guys are right but I’ve yet to see one sensible reason for leaving the EU

[JimSh]

To auntneddy,
It always surprises me that the negotiators for the EU have a perfect command of English and express  their position in a few  well-chosen  words whereas the UK negotiators despite,  their “superior” expensive education, use many unnecessary long words and say nothing of importance.

[sparky Paul]

I’ve been lurking on this site for about a year since I bought a second hand Jazz. (2014 plate ES plus).

A belated welcome to the forum! I was new to the forum too last year, I found a wealth of useful information, not to mention some very knowledgeable people.

I’m strictly in the remainer camp and can foresee nothing other than an unmitigated disaster from this totally unnecessary exercise. The document released today makes grim reading. See especially P16

https://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/Exiting-the-European-Union/17-19/Cross-Whitehall-briefing/EU-Exit-Analysis-Cross-Whitehall-Briefing.pdf

Hope you guys are right but I’ve yet to see one sensible reason for leaving the EU

I don't think it will be any surprise to you that I'm of a similar mind, though I think the real damage is going to be long term. I still believe that impending EU tax haven legislation has had more to do with Brexit than anything.

[Jocko]

The document released today makes grim reading. See especially P16

https://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/Exiting-the-European-Union/17-19/Cross-Whitehall-briefing/EU-Exit-Analysis-Cross-Whitehall-Briefing.pdf

This is typical of the fake news Trump is always going on about. This is just more of the scaremongering this thread has been discussing.

[sparky Paul]

It never ceases to amaze me how every anti-EU thinktank study or opinion or is paraded as fact, but anything which shows Brexit in a negative light is 'fake news'.

[culzean]

The document released today makes grim reading. See especially P16

https://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/Exiting-the-European-Union/17-19/Cross-Whitehall-briefing/EU-Exit-Analysis-Cross-Whitehall-Briefing.pdf

This is typical of the fake news Trump is always going on about. This is just more of the scaremongering this thread has been discussing.

Ah,  an unbiased report by the Exiting The EU Committee chaired by that duplicitous little EU toad Hillary Benn (his father Tony Benn must be spinning faster than a gyroscope in his casket).   Just surprised his committee is not based in Brussels.  A couple of days ago the right dishonourable Hillary was heard to proclaim that there is no solution to the Irish border question,  he has a very short memory as a couple of months ago the head of HMRC gave evidence to his committee - as shown in this short clip.

The EU's own committee issued a research paper just a few months ago and their findings were that a technical solution is available that has already been used in other parts of the world for many years. 

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2017/596828/IPOL_STU(2017)596828_EN.pdf

They used to call people like Hillary Benn and Tony B Liar   '5th columnists' or 'the enemy within' - I would still call them that ( another word I fancy is 'Quisling'.

[culzean]

I don't think it will be any surprise to you that I'm of a similar mind, though I think the real damage is going to be long term. I still believe that impending EU tax haven legislation has had more to do with Brexit than anything.

Wow,   what an amazing insight you just had, I am sure the badly educated politically unaware people from oop North who voted for Brexit have a vested interest in tax havens.   Why wouldn't they ? must have loads of money they would rather not pay UK tax on.

[RichardA]

Remainers are very quick to question the education level of people who voted leave

I voted remain and I was incensed by the way some remainers dismissed leavers as uneducated.

[removed by Admin]

[Jocko]

It never ceases to amaze me how every anti-EU thinktank study or opinion or is paraded as fact, but anything which shows Brexit in a negative light is 'fake news'.

There are scaremongers on both sides of the argument.  As a leaver I see the exact opposite from what you do.
Only good point today is the news that Spain will put a block on any deal unless they get Gibraltar back! That and the Irish border issues should see the hardest Brexit possible. Just what I hoped for.

[sparky Paul]

The EU's own committee issued a research paper just a few months ago and their findings were that a technical solution is available that has already been used in other parts of the world for many years. 

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2017/596828/IPOL_STU(2017)596828_EN.pdf

That's not quite accurate. This was a report commissioned by and produced for the European Parliament's Committee on Constitutional Affairs, and you seem to have completely ignored the disclaimer on page 4 -

"The opinions expressed in this document are the sole responsibility of the author and do not necessarily represent the official position of the European Parliament.".

The recommended technical approach is based on one objective, speeding up the passage of registered traders across the border - a border with over 200 crossing points. Even if number plate scanners were used, there would still have to be new infrastructure in the form of cameras or other devices situated at border points.

The study does not address the problem of parties crossing who are not registered, whether they be smugglers, illegal immigrants or just too small to afford the 'trusted trader' certification. The study suggests such people must present themselves voluntarily to manned checkpoints, so some policing will be required for this, and presumably to perform random checks to ensure that there is no corruption or even human error - for example enforcing rules of origin, checks on the transport of dangerous materials, or animal welfare.

The problem is that the study's focus is solely on trade. More worryingly, the study only mentions the Good Friday Agreement in a single line passing reference (page 14).

I don't think it will be any surprise to you that I'm of a similar mind, though I think the real damage is going to be long term. I still believe that impending EU tax haven legislation has had more to do with Brexit than anything.

Wow,   what an amazing insight you just had, I am sure the badly educated politically unaware people from oop North who voted for Brexit have a vested interest in tax havens.   Why wouldn't they ? must have loads of money they would rather not pay UK tax on.

There's that straw man again.

You know the sort of people I'm talking about. Wealthy individuals who pumped millions into the 'Leave' campaigns, many of which aren't even resident in this country for tax purposes, yet use their newspaper output and their wealth to pervert democracy here.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/nov/09/brexiters-put-money-offshore-tax-haven

[sparky Paul]

It never ceases to amaze me how every anti-EU thinktank study or opinion or is paraded as fact, but anything which shows Brexit in a negative light is 'fake news'.

There are scaremongers on both sides of the argument.  As a leaver I see the exact opposite from what you do.

I wouldn't disagree with that, there was indeed much scaremongering on both sides.

However, I was specifically addressing the point about "fake news", and I would be genuinely surprised that you think that more accusations of "fake news" came from the 'remain' campaigns.

[culzean]

[quote from deleted post removed by Admin]

Personally I took no heed of messages from either side during run-up to referendum,  I had thought almost since the EEC morphed into the EC in 1993 and certainly after the Lisbon treaty (when Ireland got the 'wrong result' in their referendum and as instructed to keep voting till they got the 'right answer' ) that we should no longer be a member as it was obvious that the EU was becoming a political monster rather than a trading bloc.

[culzean]

The study does not address the problem of parties crossing who are not registered, whether they be smugglers, illegal immigrants or just too small to afford the 'trusted trader' certification. The study suggests such people must present themselves voluntarily to manned checkpoints, so some policing will be required for this, and presumably to perform random checks to ensure that there is no corruption or even human error - for example enforcing rules of origin, checks on the transport of dangerous materials, or animal welfare.

I don't think it will be any surprise to you that I'm of a similar mind, though I think the real damage is going to be long term. I still believe that impending EU tax haven legislation has had more to do with Brexit than anything.

Wow,   what an amazing insight you just had, I am sure the badly educated politically unaware people from oop North who voted for Brexit have a vested interest in tax havens.   Why wouldn't they ? must have loads of money they would rather not pay UK tax on.

There's that straw man again.

You know the sort of people I'm talking about. Wealthy individuals who pumped millions into the 'Leave' campaigns, many of which aren't even resident in this country for tax purposes, yet use their newspaper output and their wealth to pervert democracy here.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/nov/09/brexiters-put-money-offshore-tax-haven

As for people and things crossing borders that are not registered,  smugglers etc.  - that is exactly the problem with the present EU borders,  terrorists have fled over borders easily after attacks, soft borders are a gift to bad people.  I consider RoI and UK to be civilised well ordered countries,  if they cannot come up with a suitable border system then no-one can.   The GFA also states that there should be no change in relationship between NI and UK,  which EU seems to ignore in their disingenuous attempts to cause problems that don't really exist,  the EU sees the border question as its last hope of derailing Brexit - they are fighting for their political ideology and the continued existence of the EU, these are desperate people.  With goodwill on both sides a border is never an issue,  but there is scant goodwill coming from EU.  The problem is we have quislings like B Liar , Major and Soubry working with the EU and fuelling them up with information - Barnier and company have met with CorBINO (Corbyn = Brexit In Name Only) and others despite the fact they have declared they will only negotiate with legitimate government of UK.

I have no doubts loads of vested interest money poured into both sides, people accuse Russia of interfering when it suits them,  but EU had far more to lose than Russia had to gain,  so I bet EU was also interfering (something it has had a lot of practice at over the years).

[sparky Paul]

With goodwill on both sides a border is never an issue,  but there is scant goodwill coming from EU.

Which goes back to the same point I made earlier, there's no way the EU can be seen to be giving the UK an easy ride. The end point will probably be the same, no matter how the negotiations are conducted, there is absolutely nothing for them to gain by making it look easy.

I have no doubts loads of vested interest money poured into both sides, people accuse Russia of interfering when it suits them,  but EU had far more to lose than Russia had to gain,  so I bet EU was also interfering (something it has had a lot of practice at over the years).

I suspect that Russia has a great deal to gain by destabilising the EU.

[culzean]

With goodwill on both sides a border is never an issue,  but there is scant goodwill coming from EU.

Which goes back to the same point I made earlier, there's no way the EU can be seen to be giving the UK an easy ride. The end point will probably be the same, no matter how the negotiations are conducted, there is absolutely nothing for them to gain by making it look easy.

I have no doubts loads of vested interest money poured into both sides, people accuse Russia of interfering when it suits them,  but EU had far more to lose than Russia had to gain,  so I bet EU was also interfering (something it has had a lot of practice at over the years).

I suspect that Russia has a great deal to gain by destabilising the EU.

No doubt they will reach a compromise on 28th March 2019 - as negotiators always do,  it is a war of attrition.

Russia is probably still upset by EU poking its nose into Ukraine and trying to cause trouble (pretty much a land-grab of a bordering country by EU).  Russia has no worries about mainland Europes military capability,  they have not got one (especially since the large 'white flag' factory in France burned down, and France lost 95% of its military capability until they can rebuild the factory but it may be cheaper to buy white flags from China in future).  In a recent military exercise Germany could only come up with about 7 serviceable tanks,  they have been freeloading on NATO (read  USA + UK) for too long.  Trump will not put up with it the way O'barmy did, and is also making noises about EU unfair trade policy with USA. 

 Although this article came out a few weeks after referendum it is a true today as ever..
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/07/three-great-myths-of-the-sulking-remainers/