Author Topic: Brexit and the scare mongers  (Read 25176 times)

MartinJG

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Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
« Reply #75 on: March 08, 2018, 09:16:35 AM »
I know of a psychologist who conducted a series of experiments with chickens. It seems he felt lab rats had been done to death.  It was a simple experiment on a chicken farm. I will skip the details. In short, they opened the cages of battery hens and gave them the chance to become free range hens. Trouble is, they were terrified. The grass certainly looked greener on the other side but it was all a bit risky. They tried everything to entice them out. The only way they could remove them was by dragging them from their cages, but such was the conditioning of these wretched creatures, that they fought desperately to get back to the safety of their incarceration. Never underestimate 'Battery Hen Syndrome'. Plenty of it about.

Good point,  but a lot of the older chickens in UK could remember a life before they were incarcerated - some of the millennial chickens and younger had never known any other system and obviously thought it was normal,  probably because they were allowed to move freely to other battery cages on the continent.

Talking about chickens,  the attached PDF creased me.

That woman is never short of a word or two, anything to get a bit of attention. Trouble is with these types is that we have to suffer their indulgence at great cost. Perhaps appropriately, the immortal lines from MacBeth spring to mind of a 'walking shadow, a poor player, that struts and frets his hour upon the stage, and then is heard no more. It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.' There is of course a terrible flaw in Will's text with reference to 'his', hence the bold print. Not very PC and would doubtless have been 'castrated' at the approval stage by the good conduct council of today were he a contemporary commentator.

Reminds me of the late Sir Patrick Moore on Room 101 with Paul Merton. One of his pet hates was 'squeeky women' or should I say 'sqweeky women' in that distinctive voice. This was from a man who appears to have been a confirmed batchelor for life. Question is, was it by design or did he just get lucky...
« Last Edit: March 08, 2018, 09:58:53 AM by MartinJG »

sparky Paul

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Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
« Reply #76 on: March 08, 2018, 09:42:29 AM »
The fact is that as a country we voted leave,  it is no good saying, but people did not realise we would have to leave the single market, that we would leave the customs union, because of course they did.

I don't agree with that at all. You may have selective memory, but it was certainly not the universal message espoused by the leave campaign. I can remember Daniel Hannan, who enjoyed significant airtime during the campaign, clearly telling an interviewer that “absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the single market.”

Your comment above would also carry more weight if the people you are talking about actually understood what the single market or customs union actually is, and what it means to them. I'm not talking about people like us who follow politics, I'm talking about your average man or woman in the street. You may think that is patronising, but in my experience, there are a lot of folk who still have no idea.

Jocko

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Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
« Reply #77 on: March 08, 2018, 09:48:42 AM »
I'm talking about your average man or woman in the street.
It never fails to amaze me just how "thick" the average man in the street really is. And I don't just mean with reference to politics. And Scotland is thicker than the rest of the UK.
https://www.scotsman.com/news/scotland-lags-europe-in-iq-league-1-487587
« Last Edit: March 08, 2018, 09:54:21 AM by Jocko »

sparky Paul

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Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
« Reply #78 on: March 08, 2018, 10:06:34 AM »
It never fails to amaze me just how "thick" the average man in the street really is. And I don't just mean with reference to politics. And Scotland is thicker than the rest of the UK.

I was trying to be diplomatic, but saying that "everyone understood this stuff when they voted" is utter cobblers.

MartinJG

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Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
« Reply #79 on: March 08, 2018, 11:02:18 AM »
My own stance on this is quite clear. I have no problems with joining a free trade club where there is a democratic input. However, this has never been the case with the EEC. The Brits have always been regarded as a thorn in the side simply because we called into question a number of resolutions and practices. Over the years, it is well known that while we were arguing over Queensbury Rules of fair play and good sense, certain other members simply acquiesced to keep the peace but secretly had no intention of ever fullfilling their obligations, more notably the Club Med bunch. This was folly from the word go and it has now come back to haunt. The initiation of the EU's grandiose plans for total control at the time of Blair and his fellow fudgers was the bridge too far but they had neither the vision nor the whit to recognise it. We are now left to sort out the mess. The process of democracy is nothing more than an ongoing trial in itself which should be underpinned by the available facts and rigorous intellect. An examination if you like. Enter politicians and spin. Exit the people who all too often have 'better things to do' and leave the manipulators to their devious devices. It is said that in democracy we deserve the governments we get. It is largely true but I believe we deserve better than this. The current crop of politicians are , in the main, a bunch of self serving, second rate sycophants and we put them there. Most of them have never done a day's work in the real world. The real problem we now face is that democracy is struggling to function properly largely because we are now in the grip of a body of people who are little more than quasi civil servants. That is not their role. They are there to represent their constituents. The real problem we now face is that the 'Blairites', for want of a better term, exist in large numbers on both sides of the floor. What is missing is a viable 'alternative' party to truly represent the concerns of a large swathe of this country. In this, it has been my experience that left and right share similar notes. The sooner we see Jacob Rees-Mogg in office the better. He is an excellent 'old school' parliamentarian who has the whit, intellect and integrity that is sadly absent from the current crop of squatters in the lower house. I am afraid the upper house is water under the bridge. For the record, I shall be writing to my local MP to address these very points as soon as I have collected my thoughts on this and a number of wider issues. I really wish others would do the same in the interests of democracy if only to remind them they have crossed the line too many times. 
« Last Edit: March 08, 2018, 11:22:16 AM by MartinJG »

Jocko

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Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
« Reply #80 on: March 08, 2018, 11:09:58 AM »
It's all here "The Road to Somewhere: The Populist Revolt and the Future of Politics" by David Goodhart. Get a degree in politics and become a politician!

culzean

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Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
« Reply #81 on: March 08, 2018, 01:10:20 PM »
The fact is that as a country we voted leave,  it is no good saying, but people did not realise we would have to leave the single market, that we would leave the customs union, because of course they did.

I don't agree with that at all. You may have selective memory, but it was certainly not the universal message espoused by the leave campaign. I can remember Daniel Hannan, who enjoyed significant airtime during the campaign, clearly telling an interviewer that “absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the single market.”

Your comment above would also carry more weight if the people you are talking about actually understood what the single market or customs union actually is, and what it means to them. I'm not talking about people like us who follow politics, I'm talking about your average man or woman in the street. You may think that is patronising, but in my experience, there are a lot of folk who still have no idea.

Your are right it is patronising,  no one does patronising better than remainers... >:(
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

culzean

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Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
« Reply #82 on: March 08, 2018, 01:12:35 PM »
My own stance on this is quite clear. I have no problems with joining a free trade club where there is a democratic input. However, this has never been the case with the EEC. The Brits have always been regarded as a thorn in the side simply because we called into question a number of resolutions and practices. Over the years, it is well known that while we were arguing over Queensbury Rules of fair play and good sense, certain other members simply acquiesced to keep the peace but secretly had no intention of ever fullfilling their obligations, more notably the Club Med bunch. This was folly from the word go and it has now come back to haunt. The initiation of the EU's grandiose plans for total control at the time of Blair and his fellow fudgers was the bridge too far but they had neither the vision nor the whit to recognise it. We are now left to sort out the mess. The process of democracy is nothing more than an ongoing trial in itself which should be underpinned by the available facts and rigorous intellect. An examination if you like. Enter politicians and spin. Exit the people who all too often have 'better things to do' and leave the manipulators to their devious devices. It is said that in democracy we deserve the governments we get. It is largely true but I believe we deserve better than this. The current crop of politicians are , in the main, a bunch of self serving, second rate sycophants and we put them there. Most of them have never done a day's work in the real world. The real problem we now face is that democracy is struggling to function properly largely because we are now in the grip of a body of people who are little more than quasi civil servants. That is not their role. They are there to represent their constituents. The real problem we now face is that the 'Blairites', for want of a better term, exist in large numbers on both sides of the floor. What is missing is a viable 'alternative' party to truly represent the concerns of a large swathe of this country. In this, it has been my experience that left and right share similar notes. The sooner we see Jacob Rees-Mogg in office the better. He is an excellent 'old school' parliamentarian who has the whit, intellect and integrity that is sadly absent from the current crop of squatters in the lower house. I am afraid the upper house is water under the bridge. For the record, I shall be writing to my local MP to address these very points as soon as I have collected my thoughts on this and a number of wider issues. I really wish others would do the same in the interests of democracy if only to remind them they have crossed the line too many times. 

'all that it needs for EU to flourish is for democratic people to do nothing'   ( with apologise to Edmund Burke)...
« Last Edit: March 08, 2018, 01:14:31 PM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

sparky Paul

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Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
« Reply #83 on: March 08, 2018, 01:54:39 PM »
Your are right it is patronising,  no one does patronising better than remainers... >:(

Like I said, you might think it's patronising, but the fact that it makes you all irascible doesn't make my experience untrue.

I've had this conversation with a number of ardent Leave voters, and I can tell you that a worryingly large proportion have no idea of the implications of all these matters, customs unions, single markets, EFTA, etc., apart from the stuff they read in The Sun and Daily Mail.

[quote from deleted post removed by Admin]
« Last Edit: March 11, 2018, 11:23:50 AM by RichardA »

culzean

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Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
« Reply #84 on: March 08, 2018, 02:11:00 PM »
The problem I have with the EU assembly and their politics is the lack of accountability. They are really little more than a self appointed body of people who consider they know best and are qualified to rule accordingly.

Presumably, you didn't vote for any of the UK's MEPs?


EU parliament does not function in the same way as people in the UK understand a parliament, they can only discuss what they are told to by the commission (un-elected body) and cannot propose anything - only the commission has that power.

Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

sparky Paul

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Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
« Reply #85 on: March 08, 2018, 02:24:43 PM »
EU parliament does not function in the same way as people in the UK understand a parliament, they can only discuss what they are told to by the commission (un-elected body) and cannot propose anything - only the commission has that power.

We do have a seat on the Commission, appointed by our elected Government.

Jocko

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Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
« Reply #86 on: March 08, 2018, 03:06:55 PM »
We do have a seat on the Commission, appointed by our elected Government.
One voice in 28.

sparky Paul

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Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
« Reply #87 on: March 08, 2018, 03:23:19 PM »
We do have a seat on the Commission, appointed by our elected Government.
One voice in 28.

Each member state also has a veto on any decisions made.

I have an MP, he is only one voice in 650. Does that mean I'm not fairly represented? Or should I abide by the consensus?

culzean

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Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
« Reply #88 on: March 08, 2018, 04:04:33 PM »
We do have a seat on the Commission, appointed by our elected Government.
One voice in 28.

Each member state also has a veto on any decisions made.

I have an MP, he is only one voice in 650. Does that mean I'm not fairly represented? Or should I abide by the consensus?

At least you get to vote for your MP personally,  and for a preferred party as well,  your representative on the EUSSR commission is appointed for you by some arcane process.  28 people (soon to be 27) all with vested national interests and nothing in common (not even their political views)  - one region of Belgium stalled the trade deal with Canada for years,  I believe it is still not implemented.

The EU operates at a speed that makes a glacier seem fast, it is fast becoming irrelevant in the world,  its share of world trade is shrinking like a snowball in August.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

guest5079

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Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
« Reply #89 on: March 08, 2018, 04:18:03 PM »
Another spanner in the works courtesy of the European Commission. This am on the radio, Spain has been given a veto over the Gibralter question. It seems we are threatened by the EU stating NOTHING will be agreed if the Gibralter question is not sorted to Spain's satisfaction.
These people in Europe are always on about treaties and yet, Gibralter's treaty  doesn't count and the Argentinians don't recognise Bristish sovereignty over the Falklands. Strange that both speak Spanish or a derivative.
As to understanding about the customs union and the single market, I freely admit I do not understand it, why because some prat or group of prats makes sure ordinary English is not to be used. The more confusion these so called experts can cause suits their vested interests.
Why is it all these so called experts are so frightened of straight forward common sense English. The French have never forgiven us for the fact that English is the international language, its a pity we English don't speak it.

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