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Other Hondas & General Topics => Off Topic (Non-Honda) => Topic started by: guest5079 on March 01, 2018, 10:53:27 AM

Title: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: guest5079 on March 01, 2018, 10:53:27 AM
Despite the scare mongers over Brexit, Toyota have decided to build their new Auris here. Also stated that will build most of their engines in the UK.
Courtesy of the BBC via Canada.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: sparky Paul on March 01, 2018, 11:52:15 AM
Despite the scare mongers over Brexit, Toyota have decided to build their new Auris here. Also stated that will build most of their engines in the UK.

So, in other words, nothing's changing for now. Hardly surprising, see as Toyota already build the Auris here, as well as the engines. This is only a model update, new tooling etc., and will have been in the pipeline for years. They only make the Auris here and Japan, so there's be no advantage to closing Burnaston, even post Brexit - which, by the way, hasn't even happened yet.

The real challenges will come in the next few decades when these companies decide where to make major investments, not over the next 5-10 years for which decisions have already been made. A UK outside the EU single market will be a very different proposition when it comes to looking for a new manufacturing base placed to take advantage of EU markets.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: peteo48 on March 01, 2018, 01:46:12 PM
That's very good news. My understanding is that many manufacturing companies are concerned about the customs union aspect more than anything as parts, at the moment, go to and fro with no checks. Vital, in my view, that we keep that or something pretty close to it.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: culzean on March 01, 2018, 03:30:11 PM
There has been a record amount of inward investment into UK post Brexit vote.  Bank Of England, Treasury and establishment experts got project fear forecasts so extremely wrong in run-up to referendum IMHO they have lost all credibility.  The Irish border is a problem for EU to sort out not rest of UK,  which will keep the border as open as possible, don't know why Irish are worried about borders as 80% + of their exports are to rest of Great Britain.  EU is being very aggressive with its stance on border, they are meddling in the internal affairs of a sovereign nation - truth is they are scared sh!tl£ss of UK leaving EU and they are using Irish border as a drowning man may use a lump of wood to keep him afloat. 

Jeremy Corbyn has been pushed by Blairites in party to take a gamble on customs union but in doing so it has upset its core voters in northern areas most of which voted around 70% for a clean Brexit,  I know Corbyn criticises Tories (that is in his job description) but the labour party is much more divided on Brexit than Tories).  If only stupid politicians had presented a unified front to EU bully boys  we would have got a better deal,  but as usual they are putting politics before country.  If any remainers had any doubts about theway the EU operates the last 18 months should have opened their eyes,  their answer to everything is more integration and less democracy........

The Japanese are investing a load of money in UK as a good place to do business,  it comes to something when the Japanese respect UK more than our European 'friends'.    90% of trade expansion is taking place outside EU, which is a stagnant pond of vested interests, protectionism and tariff barriers to the rest of the world.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: Jocko on March 01, 2018, 03:35:30 PM
EU is being very aggressive with its stance on border, they are meddling in the internal affairs of a sovereign nation - truth is they are scared sh!tl£ss of UK leaving EU and they are using Irish border as a drowning man may use a lump of wood to keep him afloat.
I think the EU are risking the UK saying s*d it, and walking away from the table.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: MartinJG on March 01, 2018, 03:59:42 PM
There has been a record amount of inward investment into UK post Brexit vote.  Bank Of England, Treasury and establishment experts got project fear forecasts so extremely wrong in run-up to referendum IMHO they have lost all credibility.  The Irish border is a problem for EU to sort out not rest of UK,  which will keep the border as open as possible, don't know why Irish are worried about borders as 80% + of their exports are to rest of Great Britain.  EU is being very aggressive with its stance on border, they are meddling in the internal affairs of a sovereign nation - truth is they are scared sh!tl£ss of UK leaving EU and they are using Irish border as a drowning man may use a lump of wood to keep him afloat. 

Jeremy Corbyn has been pushed by Blairites in party to take a gamble on customs union but in doing so it has upset its core voters in northern areas most of which voted around 70% for a clean Brexit,  I know Corbyn criticises Tories (that is in his job description) but the labour party is much more divided on Brexit than Tories).  If only stupid politicians had presented a unified front to EU bully boys  we would have got a better deal,  but as usual they are putting politics before country.  If any remainers had any doubts about theway the EU operates the last 18 months should have opened their eyes,  their answer to everything is more integration and less democracy........

The Japanese are investing a load of money in UK as a good place to do business,  it comes to something when the Japanese respect UK more than our European 'friends'.    90% of trade expansion is taking place outside EU, which is a stagnant pond of vested interests, protectionism and tariff barriers to the rest of the world.

Think that just about covers it. EU scared stiff. Their authority is on the line here and they will not let go of the tuckshop keys without a fight. They know that if we ever get round to some common sense and pull the plug it is game set and match. On the Brexit predictions, I don't think they got their predications wrong simply because it was only ever an attempt to intimidate. Misjudging the general mood of the country was the bit they got wrong. Doubt they gave it a minute's thought. They have their own agenda, centralisation and bureacracy, all of which is anathema to enterprise. They are scared stiff of enterprise. It represents the greatest threat to their existence. In fact, I doubt they could punch their way out of a paper bag. They could probably manage a tax on paperbags though. Their next goal is total control of digital currency. Get that in place and they can print an infinite number of digits for widgets for as long they want and the 'Snowflakes' will just lap it up, that is, until someone or something finally calls their bluff. Never underestimate popcorn politics.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: John Ratsey on March 01, 2018, 09:01:58 PM
That's very good news. My understanding is that many manufacturing companies are concerned about the customs union aspect more than anything as parts, at the moment, go to and fro with no checks. Vital, in my view, that we keep that or something pretty close to it.
But, IMO, it would be no bad thing if the supply chains get simplified and shortened. It could reduce the HGV traffic clogging the roads. It seems that goods made at A get transported to a warehouse at B, then to a distribution centre at C to finally be driven back to customers at A. Use of the roads is too cheap!
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: culzean on March 01, 2018, 09:31:25 PM
That's very good news. My understanding is that many manufacturing companies are concerned about the customs union aspect more than anything as parts, at the moment, go to and fro with no checks. Vital, in my view, that we keep that or something pretty close to it.
But, IMO, it would be no bad thing if the supply chains get simplified and shortened. It could reduce the HGV traffic clogging the roads. It seems that goods made at A get transported to a warehouse at B, then to a distribution centre at C to finally be driven back to customers at A. Use of the roads is too cheap!

At one automotive sub-assembly manufacturer I worked at we used to supply parts for Toyota France, Renault, SAAB  and VW  also Porsche.  Also BMW mini plant, JLR,  Honda UK  and Toyota also Ford Transit until it got shunted off to Turkey by EU edict. You are correct supply chains are too long and EU model encourages this as they juggle industry around artificially to try to keep unemployment down in member states. The Euro means stronger countries like Germany and France have an undervalued currency while countries like Spain and Greece have an overvalued currency, it works in Germanys favour as it makes their exports cheaper and their economy strong, they don't care that poorer countries get a hit.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: sparky Paul on March 02, 2018, 11:47:27 AM
The Irish border is a problem for EU to sort out not rest of UK,  which will keep the border as open as possible, don't know why Irish are worried about borders as 80% + of their exports are to rest of Great Britain.

Just wow. I don't know where to start with that one.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: guest4871 on March 02, 2018, 04:45:05 PM
The Irish border is a problem for EU to sort out not rest of UK,  which will keep the border as open as possible, don't know why Irish are worried about borders as 80% + of their exports are to rest of Great Britain.

Just wow. I don't know where to start with that one.



1. There is already a border (government, different laws, VAT, customs and excise - think fuel, tobacco, alcohol).

2. UK will have no obligation to police the border except and unless UK wish to. They have said they do not wish to do so e.g. no hard border.

3. When UK leave the EU, Ireland has a contractual obligation to the EU to police the physical external borders of the EU, i.e a hard border. This is more than a little awkward for the Irish Government although in the Good Friday Agreement they did give up claim to Northern Ireland.

The bilateral Good Friday Agreement covers the issues of nationality and free movement of people living in Northern Ireland.  Also Ireland and UK are the not members of the EU Schengen Area Agreement because of the bilateral UK/ Irish Common Travel Area. So free movement on the island of Ireland is not an issue, nor is movement between Ireland and UK except for the EU.

Incidentally, by default, after we leave the EU a Northern Ireland citizen would still be able to be all of a UK, Irish and EU citizen as they wish.




Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: culzean on March 02, 2018, 04:52:54 PM
The Irish border is a problem for EU to sort out not rest of UK,  which will keep the border as open as possible, don't know why Irish are worried about borders as 80% + of their exports are to rest of Great Britain.

Just wow. I don't know where to start with that one.



1. There is already a border (government, different laws, VAT, customs and excise - think fuel, tobacco, alcohol).

2. UK will have no obligation to police the border except and unless UK wish to. They have said they do not wish to do so e.g. no hard border.

3. When UK leave the EU, Ireland has a contractual obligation to the EU to police the physical external borders of the EU, i.e a hard border. This is more than a little awkward for the Irish Government although in the Good Friday Agreement they did give up claim to Northern Ireland.

The bilateral Good Friday Agreement covers the issues of nationality and free movement of people living in Northern Ireland.  Also Ireland and UK are the not members of the EU Schengen Area Agreement because of the bilateral UK/ Irish Common Travel Area. So free movement on the island of Ireland is not an issue, nor is movement between Ireland and UK except for the EU.

Incidentally, by default, after we leave the EU a Northern Ireland citizen would still be able to be all of a UK, Irish and EU citizen as they wish.

+1   

The EU are trying to put all the onus / blame on Great Britain to set up and police the border when it is their pigeon --  There is absolutely not a single shred of goodwill from EU,  and very little from Rep of Ireland on this matter,  they need to get real, it is in everybodies best interests to make it work,  not just for EU and ROI to keep throwing rocks under the wheels of Brexit.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: Jocko on March 02, 2018, 06:27:52 PM
Personally, I hope the government spits out the dummy and tells the EU to stuff it. I'm sure a couple of months of WTO rules will have the EU clamouring to sign a trade agreement. And as for the divorce settlement - the money would be better in the UK's coffers than those of the EU.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: culzean on March 03, 2018, 11:02:34 AM
Labour party not the only ones doing a 'U' turn on policy.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5714677/siemens-announces-new-uk-train-factory-despite-brexit-threat-to-quit/

Siemens company has been in UK for a long, long time after William Siemens set up here in 1843

https://www.theiet.org/resources/library/archives/biographies/siemens.cfm 
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: guest5079 on March 03, 2018, 11:31:44 AM
I sincerely hope I have remembered this fairly correctly.
BMW produce the Mini in the UK.  BUT on TV a couple of days ago and here I hope I am correct, the Mini is part assembled in UK, then taken to France for 'interior'. Returned to UK and then off to Germany for the engine to be fitted. Back to the Uk no doubt to be exported.
If I have got his correct, isn't about time this lunacy was stopped, how much in cost is added to the final product? for the idiots to cough up at the dealership.
If the Europeans want to pay these stupid games, then whatever Blighty decides to do, so long as it is to stop the European gravy train then it must only be a good thing.
It does seem most are of this opinion and I agree with the sentiment of lets tell the Continent to take a hike and we will get on with the rest of the World.
Europe has NEVER been a friend of the UK so lets grab the chance and let them drown in their own idiocy.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: Jocko on March 03, 2018, 01:16:30 PM
I voted Leave, but not without a lot of thought and soul searching. However, if there was to be a second referendum, I would now vote Leave without any qualms. I feel the EU want to punish us for daring to break up their club. Quite a few friends, who were torn, like me, have recently voiced the same opinions.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: MartinJG on March 03, 2018, 01:26:11 PM
I sincerely hope I have remembered this fairly correctly.
BMW produce the Mini in the UK.  BUT on TV a couple of days ago and here I hope I am correct, the Mini is part assembled in UK, then taken to France for 'interior'. Returned to UK and then off to Germany for the engine to be fitted. Back to the Uk no doubt to be exported.
If I have got his correct, isn't about time this lunacy was stopped, how much in cost is added to the final product? for the idiots to cough up at the dealership.
If the Europeans want to pay these stupid games, then whatever Blighty decides to do, so long as it is to stop the European gravy train then it must only be a good thing.
It does seem most are of this opinion and I agree with the sentiment of lets tell the Continent to take a hike and we will get on with the rest of the World.
Europe has NEVER been a friend of the UK so lets grab the chance and let them drown in their own idiocy.

auntyneddy

It seems to me there is a lot of demand for this car. I wouldn't personally touch one. In my view, they are overpriced, over rated and impractical. More of a fashion and thrill factor. However, the UK is big business for the motor industry with a high turnover which is largely driven by debt and perceived tax efficiencies. So, if what you say is correct and you are the CEO of 'modern Mini' you pay little attention to the logistical short term shenanigans as long as you can get 'units' on the roads and everyone is happy to pay for them. When sales momentum begins to dwindle you 'react' and go back to the drawing board to rethink your strategy. Every picture tells a story and this one is as cyclical as it gets.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: culzean on March 03, 2018, 01:52:17 PM
I voted Leave, but not without a lot of thought and soul searching. However, if there was to be a second referendum, I would now vote Leave without any qualms. I feel the EU want to punish us for daring to break up their club. Quite a few friends, who were torn, like me, have recently voiced the same opinions.

I voted leave as well,  but without any soul searching at all  :D   I am watching the Italian elections with great interest, one way or the other there is going to be a big upheaval,  and it will not be to the benefit of EU - Italexit anyone  :o

The Euro has punished every EU country except Germany,  who love it because otherwise their goods would be too expensive,  but the Euro overprices every other countries currency and has led to high unemployment and debt.  The best thing UK ever did was to avoid being involved in Eurozone,  but if Sturgeon had her way Scotland would be using it and England would have a hard border to the north.

Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: culzean on March 03, 2018, 02:10:58 PM
I sincerely hope I have remembered this fairly correctly.
BMW produce the Mini in the UK.  BUT on TV a couple of days ago and here I hope I am correct, the Mini is part assembled in UK, then taken to France for 'interior'. Returned to UK and then off to Germany for the engine to be fitted. Back to the Uk no doubt to be exported.
If I have got his correct, isn't about time this lunacy was stopped, how much in cost is added to the final product? for the idiots to cough up at the dealership.
If the Europeans want to pay these stupid games, then whatever Blighty decides to do, so long as it is to stop the European gravy train then it must only be a good thing.
It does seem most are of this opinion and I agree with the sentiment of lets tell the Continent to take a hike and we will get on with the rest of the World.
Europe has NEVER been a friend of the UK so lets grab the chance and let them drown in their own idiocy.

No car company in the world could afford to build cars in the way described,  nor would they even try,  especially with a high volume car like the Mini.  One of the reasons Rover group went bust is that the company was built up from from car plants all over UK that had been taken over and consolidated into the group and the supply chains were convoluted and spread out.   I remember the Rover conveyor bridge over the Bristol Road (A38) that used to take painted bodies over to the trim and final that split the Longbridge factory - the Austin Maxi and 1800 body was too wide to go over the bridge and had to be loaded on lorries and moved between the plants.  Jaguar used to ship bodies from Castle Bromwich plant to Browns Lane plant in Coventry for 'trim and final assembly' and they used extra tall trailers to do it, along the A45 all the bridges were extra high to accommodate the height.

The whole idea of front wheel drive was that it would allow companies to have engines made in separate plants if needed and the whole engine, gearbox and drive train is one unit to be slotted into the car.   
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: Jocko on March 03, 2018, 02:27:40 PM
Not quite auntmeddy's sojourn but just as bad.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/mar/03/brexit-uk-car-industry-mini-britain-eu (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/mar/03/brexit-uk-car-industry-mini-britain-eu)
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: sparky Paul on March 03, 2018, 10:36:21 PM
I feel the EU want to punish us for daring to break up their club.

The EU have got to punish us. They can't be seen to be giving us a favourable deal which is free of the obligations of being a EU member. With regards to the free movement of goods and services, the outcome has to be inferior. Even those non-EU countries within the EFTA have inferior deals which cover subsets of their economy, and pay a great deal for the privilege.

As for the Mini assembly, as far as I know, they operate a conventional system where components from both the UK and other EU sources are assembled to completion in Cowley. Certain specialised components may cross currently frictionless borders several times, but most components come from a single contracted manufacturer - this is how modern car manufacture takes place. Don't forget that we have some major component manufacturers in this country who export to other EU countries.

BMW also have a another Mini assembly plant in the Netherlands, VDL Nedcar in Born - the old DAF / Volvo factory. In fact all Mini convertibles and Countryman models are assembled at Nedcar, as well as the BMW X1. The Nedcar plant currently has significant spare capacity.

The obvious answer for BMW is to continue final assembly of imported parts for the Mini hatchback at Cowley for the UK markets, thus minimising import duties to parts only, and expand production within EU borders for EU markets. I'm afraid that long term, if we find ourselves outside of the EU single market, this will become the blueprint for most car manufacturers which have facilities in both the UK and the EU, and longer term, for many other exporting manufacturers.

We're heading for a hard Brexit, so I guess we will get to find out how it all turns out in 20-30 years. One final thought - how many people think that plants like Burnaston, Sunderland or Swindon would even exist if the UK had been outside of the EU?
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: culzean on March 04, 2018, 10:47:44 AM
I feel the EU want to punish us for daring to break up their club.
We're heading for a hard Brexit, so I guess we will get to find out how it all turns out in 20-30 years. One final thought - how many people think that plants like Burnaston, Sunderland or Swindon would even exist if the UK had been outside of the EU?

The Japanese have been much more reliable to the UK than our European 'friends' - Japanese investment in this country has been steady has actually increased since Brexit,  the Japanese are a nation that treasures their independence and would never think of joining a political union such as EU.   The Japanese seem happy enough with Brexit,  and it has no doubt raised our esteem in their country as fellow country that wants to control its own future and trade.

 I think if anyone who voted remain has not changed their mind after seeing the way EU treats nations who are no longer happy with its level of micro-managing control of laws and trade and want out then they truly have an ostrich mentality.   According to one European leader the UK leaving is equivalent to 19 other countries leaving.  The EU is at war on four fronts - from the east Poland, Bulgaria and other former soviet states are not happy now they realise they swapped one political master for another one,  from the south Greece Italy and Spain are not doing well in the Eurozone,  and the influx of illegal immigrants with no support or answer from Brussels is creating unrest.  To the north countries like Norway and Sweden are having second thoughts,  to the west there is Brexit and Trump,  who accuses the EU of unfair trade practices and is taking steps to bring them in line.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/03/03/donald-trump-threatens-eu-tariffs-cars-trade-war-warning/?li_source=LI&li_medium=li-recommendation-widget

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/03/03/steve-bannon-says-eus-treatment-britain-brexit-negotiations/?li_source=LI&li_medium=li-recommendation-widget

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/926667/Italian-election-Voters-Euroscepticism-EU-Lega-Salvini-Juncker-Italy
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: MartinJG on March 04, 2018, 10:54:08 AM
Not wishing to put the cart before the horse here, but when electric vehicles become a feasible reality, surely this logistical headache will resolve itself to some extent. That crankshaft will no longer be required. Specialist components will be sourced and imported for assembly but the whole process must surely be simplified, especially if we have proper free trade agreements in place. That surely must have a negative implications in the motor industry which is really oversupplied and in some cases, subsidised. I have lost track of the machinations in Italy but last time I looked, the Fiat group were struggling.  That in itself is a political banana skin but a reality nevertheless. Bottom line is evolve or die but that is the nature of innovation and enterprise. 
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: MartinJG on March 04, 2018, 11:12:56 AM
I feel the EU want to punish us for daring to break up their club.
We're heading for a hard Brexit, so I guess we will get to find out how it all turns out in 20-30 years. One final thought - how many people think that plants like Burnaston, Sunderland or Swindon would even exist if the UK had been outside of the EU?

The Japanese have been much more reliable to the UK than our European 'friends' - Japanese investment in this country has been steady has actually increased since Brexit,  the Japanese are a nation that treasures their independence and would never think of joining a political union such as EU.   The Japanese seem happy enough with Brexit,  and it has no doubt raised our esteem in their country as fellow country that wants to control its own future and trade.

 I think if anyone who voted remain has not changed their mind after seeing the way EU treats nations who are no longer happy with its level of micro-managing control of laws and trade and want out then they truly have an ostrich mentality.   According to one European leader the UK leaving is equivalent to 19 other countries leaving.  The EU is at war on four fronts - from the east Poland, Bulgaria and other former soviet states are not happy now they realise they swapped one political master for another one,  from the south Greece Italy and Spain are not doing well in the Eurozone,  and the influx of illegal immigrants with no support or answer from Brussels is creating unrest.  To the north countries like Norway and Sweden are having second thoughts,  to the west there is Brexit and Trump,  who accuses the EU of unfair trade practices and is taking steps to bring them in line.

Yes. One word. Euro. Great for the Fatherland and the northern European acolytes, not so great for the Southern European Club Med countries who have been largely subsidised, and to some extent, have become economic slaves. Trouble is, the richer industrialists do not want to foot the bill. Socialist contradictions there, which is no surprise, but that's a detail. The solution, in principle is quite simple but with painful repercussions. Float the national currencies again, where applicable, free up exchange rates and we have the makings of economic equilibrium in place but it is a 'sink or swim' policy. The funksters know this and it could lead to blood on the streets but it is the right step in the right direction. No pain no gain. They have to decide if they want Federalism or not. If so, someone has to foot the bill and right now, the big players are not exactly rushing to the fore. Smacks of 'cake and eat it' to me. Thank the 17.4 million folk of this country, and growing in number it seems, that we appear to be slowly extricating ourselves from an almight mess, albeit it at a snail's pace. Time for another cuppa.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: sparky Paul on March 04, 2018, 12:36:39 PM
I feel the EU want to punish us for daring to break up their club.
We're heading for a hard Brexit, so I guess we will get to find out how it all turns out in 20-30 years. One final thought - how many people think that plants like Burnaston, Sunderland or Swindon would even exist if the UK had been outside of the EU?


That's a smashing bit of selective quoting... you include my initial quote, cut the bit where I agree with Jocko, then patch in another bit where I was talking about Mini assembly in Cowley to make it look like my response.

This is exactly what I like about political debate, all this honest straight talking!  ::)

If you really want to know what Nissan, Toyota and Honda think of a hard Brexit,

http://europe.autonews.com/article/20180209/ANE/180209764/nissan-honda-toyota-warn-about-brexit-high-stakes

I'll say again, this is not about building newer models of cars in factories that are already here - in many cases, these companies haven't yet got the capacity to build  these cars elsewhere... then again, companies like Nissan/Renault and Peugeot, both of whom are significant vehicle manufacturers in the UK, may well have spare capacity available.

These sorts of decisions were pre-empted by the decisions made by these companies long before Brexit was ever dreamt possible. This is about the long term future, when decisions are made to build new plants. Major investment, not tinkering with existing production lines to make shiny new models of the same car.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: guest1372 on March 04, 2018, 01:06:34 PM
My friends in the Midlands designing drive train components are now taking their 2nd level German language exams, although Japanese owned - the production is partially in Poland and assembly in the Slovenia/Slovakia/Austria automotive hub it seems certain the company will leave the UK
--
TG
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: guest4871 on March 04, 2018, 01:14:51 PM
Before we all get carried away with ourselves, let me suggest that the UK car manufacturers perhaps protest too hard and perhaps for political reasons. Nissan, particularly, is 40% owned by Renault which is 20% owned by the French Government and incidentally 3% by Daimler AG.

In the new world order, it will be very simple for the UK government to do one of two things or both for all car manufacturers.

Most simple would be to make the existing operations Customs Bonded Factories (as e.g. tobacco factories). Imported components would be imported under Customs Bond.They do not pay any tax or duty on import into UK until they leave the Bonded Factory. Exported completed cars or components would bear no UK duty or tax (but will pay local import taxes into the EU and existing other non EU countries just as now). Cars sold into the UK market will bear UK local tax.

Also let us not forget the £ is weaker now and that has all but eliminated any potential tariff differences with EU anyway.

All in all it may actually be better in the future to manufacture in UK for EU markets.

Alternatively but similar, to make them tax free Economic Development Zones which what I believe Sunderland originally was. Canary Wharf certainly was - with the intention of establishing manufacturing on the Isle of Dogs but property developers spotted the opportunity and we now have what we now have.

The car manufactures will already be aware of these options and use them around the world.

I do suspect they protest too much.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: guest5079 on March 04, 2018, 02:23:54 PM
VW pulled a fast one by fiddling their figures. Punished in the USA but even then despite all the publicity, VW cars are still seemingly selling. I was looking at S/H vehicles on local sites and it was difficult to find a) a petrol car and b) I was amazed at the number of s/h VW diesels on offer.
I voted NOT to join the EEC in 1975?.  Now the original 'trade' organisation that was the original idea flogged to the UK electorate is a huge political animal that has forgotten  what the original concept was.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: Jocko on March 04, 2018, 02:36:44 PM
My brother and his wife were buying a couple of years old, "pre-used" car, last month, and the salesmen were going out of their way to try and get them to buy a diesel. They declined, despite the fact my brother has a diesel BMW 320, much to the chagrin of the salesmen.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: culzean on March 04, 2018, 03:24:07 PM
Yes. One word. Euro. Great for the Fatherland and the northern European acolytes, not so great for the Southern European Club Med countries who have been largely subsidised, and to some extent, have become economic slaves. Trouble is, the richer industrialists do not want to foot the bill. Socialist contradictions there, which is no surprise, but that's a detail. The solution, in principle is quite simple but with painful repercussions. Float the national currencies again, where applicable, free up exchange rates and we have the makings of economic equilibrium in place but it is a 'sink or swim' policy. The funksters know this and it could lead to blood on the streets but it is the right step in the right direction. No pain no gain. They have to decide if they want Federalism or not. If so, someone has to foot the bill and right now, the big players are not exactly rushing to the fore. Smacks of 'cake and eat it' to me. Thank the 17.4 million folk of this country, and growing in number it seems, that we appear to be slowly extricating ourselves from an almight mess, albeit it at a snail's pace. Time for another cuppa.

We have been lied to and mislead so much over the EU that it is hard to know who you can trust,  not Ted Heath certainly

http://www.vernoncoleman.com/euillegally.html

http://campaignforanindependentbritain.org.uk/britain-europe-bruges-group/
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: MartinJG on March 04, 2018, 07:18:39 PM

Interesting read. Several words spring to mind on the way things have been and continue to be handled but it's Sunday.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: guest4871 on March 04, 2018, 10:13:39 PM

Interesting read. Several words spring to mind on the way things have been and continue to be handled but it's Sunday.

+1

Very troubling.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: guest1372 on March 04, 2018, 10:15:43 PM
.... but I hope you are all wise enough to be able to distinguish between opinion pieces by anti-EU campaign groups and facts.
--
TG
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: culzean on March 04, 2018, 10:38:03 PM
.... but I hope you are all wise enough to be able to distinguish between opinion pieces by anti-EU campaign groups and facts.
--
TG

It's all fact, released under that damn 30 year rule designed to protect people with stuff to hide until it no longer matters, the statute of limitations has kicked in, or they are dead and can't be prosecuted for their actions,  do they still hang people for high treason ?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/9233096/Europe-alienates-us-all-as-foretold-40-years-ago.html

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/883540/FCO-30-1048-Brexit-EU-secret-document-damned-Britain-EU-membership

Just shows the utter contempt politicians hold the electorate in..
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: MartinJG on March 04, 2018, 11:09:11 PM
.... but I hope you are all wise enough to be able to distinguish between opinion pieces by anti-EU campaign groups and facts.
--
TG

There are always two sides to an argument. That is fundamental to democratic principles. The problem I have with the EU assembly and their politics is the lack of accountability. They are really little more than a self appointed body of people who consider they know best and are qualified to rule accordingly. That is a poor state of affairs to put it mildly. At least we have the opportunity of holding our own homegrown politicians to account every few years and hopefully achieving some consensus.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: Jocko on March 05, 2018, 06:18:47 AM
Latest anti Brexit scaremongering. Supposed US lobbying to have geographical name protections dropped so that they can make and sell Cornish pasties, Scotch whisky, Cumberland sausage and such.
https://inews.co.uk/news/us-lobbying-uk-drop-food-name-protections-sell-cornish-pasties/ (https://inews.co.uk/news/us-lobbying-uk-drop-food-name-protections-sell-cornish-pasties/)

Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: sparky Paul on March 05, 2018, 05:04:56 PM
The problem I have with the EU assembly and their politics is the lack of accountability. They are really little more than a self appointed body of people who consider they know best and are qualified to rule accordingly.

Presumably, you didn't vote for any of the UK's MEPs?
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: culzean on March 05, 2018, 06:33:06 PM
The problem I have with the EU assembly and their politics is the lack of accountability. They are really little more than a self appointed body of people who consider they know best and are qualified to rule accordingly.

Presumably, you didn't vote for any of the UK's MEPs?

Unfortunately the power lies with the  EU commission who are not elected,   not the elected parliament of MEP's (who are just there to give a veneer / illusion of democracy).
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: MartinJG on March 05, 2018, 07:22:50 PM
The problem I have with the EU assembly and their politics is the lack of accountability. They are really little more than a self appointed body of people who consider they know best and are qualified to rule accordingly.

Presumably, you didn't vote for any of the UK's MEPs?

sparky P

A touch mischievous. I voted for the UKIP party whom I felt best represented UK interests along with many others it seems. The majority in fact. Not my normal party of choice which appeared to suffer from stagefright when it mattered most. I would add that had the EU 'whip hands' been more amenable to grassroot views in the UK, things might have been different, but they clearly have their own agenda, as do we. We are where we are.

PS - I think it is ironic that Cameron's decision to offer a referendum was perhaps unwittingly his finest hour and will probably haunt him for the rest of his days. If nothing else it has opened up a proper debate on the future direction of the UK.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: culzean on March 05, 2018, 08:20:48 PM
After Italian election result we may not have an EU to leave by this time next year.  Try telling the Italians they can't have a hard border with France and Spain..........

EU, the political project built on foundation's of sand, the reaction time of the EU to anything is measured in decades. Crisis, what crisis ?
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: John Ratsey on March 05, 2018, 09:13:45 PM
PS - I think it is ironic that Cameron's decision to offer a referendum was perhaps unwittingly his finest hour and will probably haunt him for the rest of his days. If nothing else it has opened up a proper debate on the future direction of the UK.
I just wish that he had said that there would need to be a majority of the electorate in favour of Brexit to trigger the exit process.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: guest1372 on March 05, 2018, 09:50:05 PM
..... a majority of the electorate in favour ...
51.9% x 71.8% = 37.26%
The threshold for public servants to call industrial action is 40%.
--
TG

Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: sparky Paul on March 05, 2018, 11:00:02 PM
A touch mischievous.

Sorry Martin, it seemed in keeping with the thread.  ;)

I just wish that he had said that there would need to be a majority of the electorate in favour of Brexit to trigger the exit process.

Indeed, for a vote with such long-term consequences, a simple majority vote is normally insufficient. This is not about electing someone who can be removed in 4-5 years or less, this is an irreversible change which should require it to be generally seen that most people really want to take the step. In such cases, it is common practice to require a 'supermajority', for example, over 50% of the electorate, or alternatively over 2/3 of those who voted, with a minimum turnout. If change is genuinely 'generally seen',  it should be easy to get a supermajority.

Anyway, all that is now academic. We are where we are, and the question is not if, but how. Cameron's mistake was his confidence that he could put this away, once and for all, by setting the bar low and winning a simple majority vote. As one of Cameron's fellow dinner guests famously said to his face, "not even my golf club alters its rules by a simple majority vote".
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: Jocko on March 06, 2018, 06:56:11 AM
..... a majority of the electorate in favour ...
51.9% x 71.8% = 37.26%
The threshold for public servants to call industrial action is 40%.
--
TG
Perhaps it is time we joined countries like Australia and Belgium, where voting is mandatory. If not in all elections, at least in referendum. My opinion is, if you didn't vote, then take what you get.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: ColinS on March 06, 2018, 07:03:27 AM
My opinion is, if you didn't vote, then take what you get.
+1
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: sparky Paul on March 06, 2018, 08:26:41 AM
Perhaps it is time we joined countries like Australia and Belgium, where voting is mandatory. If not in all elections, at least in referendum. My opinion is, if you didn't vote, then take what you get.

Another way to look at it, 37% voted for Brexit, 35% voted against, and the other 28% were so incensed by our continued membership of the EU that they couldn't be arsed to vote.

On a major constitutional issue like this, the supermajority argument is essentially that abstention should be a vote for the status quo. If the people really want change, they should at least have to vote for it.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: Jocko on March 06, 2018, 08:35:48 AM
On a major constitutional issue like this, the supermajority argument is essentially that abstention should be a vote for the status quo. If the people really want change, they should at least have to vote for it.
A "Remoaners" point of view.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: richardfrost on March 06, 2018, 09:22:12 AM
After Italian election result we may not have an EU to leave by this time next year.  Try telling the Italians they can't have a hard border with France and Spain..........

Shouldn't be too hard telling the Italians they can't have a hard border with Spain. Unless they plan to invade Portugal or France, or maybe annexe Andorra or Gibraltar?
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: culzean on March 06, 2018, 09:28:38 AM
On a major constitutional issue like this, the supermajority argument is essentially that abstention should be a vote for the status quo. If the people really want change, they should at least have to vote for it.
A "Remoaners" point of view.

+1

If people do not vote they lose any input into the result.  The Australian voting system is very convoluted,  the ballot paper is quite large, you have a main vote but then you have to put down 2nd and 3rd preferences,  if your preferred candidate does not get over 50% of vote your other preferences are carried forward so you may get a candidate elected that was not your first preference anyway so its a bit like first past the post and PR rolled into one.

Democracy is when the people who are allowed to vote actually use that vote,  you simply cannot count the people who did not bother voting as 'being for the status quo' - if you did we would never have a change of government. The average turnout in UK elections is about 65%, the incoming government may get less than 30% of the vote - so the 35% who did not vote would 'have voted to keep the incumbent government'  - but that is democracy. 

This covers BBC and Brexit,  Jo Coburn continues to push the BBC party line even though the former Irish Ambassador puts forward very well reasoned arguments why RoI would be better off leaving EU and staying with rest of UK + NI after Brexit. 
" In a democracy it's your vote that counts; in feudalism, it's your Count that votes"
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: culzean on March 06, 2018, 09:42:57 AM
After Italian election result we may not have an EU to leave by this time next year.  Try telling the Italians they can't have a hard border with France and Spain..........

Shouldn't be too hard telling the Italians they can't have a hard border with Spain. Unless they plan to invade Portugal or France, or maybe annexe Andorra or Gibraltar?

Don't you just hate this auto-correct, you type Austria and it changes it to Spain.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: sparky Paul on March 06, 2018, 10:01:56 AM
On a major constitutional issue like this, the supermajority argument is essentially that abstention should be a vote for the status quo. If the people really want change, they should at least have to vote for it.
A "Remoaners" point of view.

Yes I see, that's a perfectly valid and reasoned argument.  ::)

Whilst I personally make no secret of the fact that I would have preferred a different outcome, as Martin said earlier, we are where we are.

That said,  people are still entitled to an opinion, even if you happen to think it's the wrong one. One thing I have found detestable through this whole thing has been the tendency to insult not the views or arguments, but the person or people holding those views - and calling someone a "remoaner" is a perfect example. If the intention is to shut down any scrutiny, then that is a path fraught with danger - democracy doesn't end at the ballot box.

You may think it's a "remoaners" point of view, but I suspect the supermajority argument long predates the Brexit vote.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: Jocko on March 06, 2018, 10:37:22 AM
I wasn't being disparaging with my remoaner comment, just stirring it.  ;D
The Australian system sounds very much like what we have here in Scotland, for the Scottish Parliament.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed-member_proportional_representation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed-member_proportional_representation)
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: sparky Paul on March 06, 2018, 10:53:00 AM
If people do not vote they lose any input into the result.

Representative democracy doesn't work like that. Just because I abstained from voting, or voted for some other fellow, it doesn't mean I am no longer entitled to any representation in Parliament. I may not have the Government I wanted, but I still have an elected MP to whom I can take my concerns.

Democracy is when the people who are allowed to vote actually use that vote,  you simply cannot count the people who did not bother voting as 'being for the status quo' - if you did we would never have a change of government.

A periodic vote for a representative is very different to a permanent constitutional change, for the reasons I gave earlier. I agree that a requirement for a "supermajority" may be a difficult pill to swallow, but to make such a major and permanent constitutional change on a simple 51% majority of an indeterminate number of the population seems every bit as inadequate.

In a representative democracy, my personal view is that referenda are a wholly unsatisfactory way to conduct Government. They are nothing more than a snapshot of public opinion, there should need to be a clear mandate for such major and far reaching changes. You could end up with a 51% majority based on public mood that one day, influenced by such things as the weather, bogus newspaper headlines that morning, or some other transient issue that day. Even if referenda are only legally an advisory to Parliament, which most are, the damage they do to democracy is immense - Government is consumed, public mood is soured for years, and the influence of those with extreme views is inflated.

But, as they say, it's all water under the bridge now.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: guest4871 on March 06, 2018, 11:01:51 AM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed-member_proportional_representation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed-member_proportional_representation)

I had to laugh at the final paragraph, particularly the last sentence.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: guest4871 on March 06, 2018, 11:54:54 AM
I was astounded to come across:

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2017/596828/IPOL_STU(2017)596828_EN.pdf

It is an extremely well formulated European Parliament study, dated November 2017, on what they call Smart Border 2 (a frictionless Irish border) which is well worth a scan.

It sets out very clearly and maturely how the border might operate. It is very well thought through.

If you listen to the politicians and the media there seems no solution. But the study seems to be saying something very sensible and practical here.

European Parliament's Brexit chief Guy Verhofstadt laughed the idea of a technical solution out of court. Irish Prime Minister Leo Varadkar poured cold water on a suggestion by Theresa May that the customs arrangements on the US-Canada border could provide a model for the Irish border after Brexit. "I visited it back in August, and I saw a hard border with physical infrastructure with customs posts, people in uniforms with arms and dogs and that is definitely not a solution that is one that we can possibly entertain".

Frankly I feel I am beginning to lose the will to live!  :'(

"This study, commissioned by the European Parliament's Policy Department for Citizens' Rights and Constitutional Affairs at the request of the AFCO Committee, provides background on cross border movement and trade between Northern Ireland and Ireland and identifies international standards and best practices and technologies that can be used to avoid a ‘hard’ border as well as case studies that provide insights into creating a smooth border experience. The technical solution provided is based on innovative approaches with a focus on cooperation, best practices and technology that is independent of any political agreements on the UK’s exit from the EU and offers a template for future UK-EU border relationships."

Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: richardfrost on March 06, 2018, 12:15:19 PM
After Italian election result we may not have an EU to leave by this time next year.  Try telling the Italians they can't have a hard border with France and Spain..........

Shouldn't be too hard telling the Italians they can't have a hard border with Spain. Unless they plan to invade Portugal or France, or maybe annexe Andorra or Gibraltar?

Don't you just hate this auto-correct, you type Austria and it changes it to Spain.

 :) ;) :D ;D :D :)
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: richardfrost on March 06, 2018, 12:23:04 PM
For me, it is really simple. I was quite disatisfied with my last car, so if a referendum asked a simple question - 'Do you want to change your car - yes or no?' then my answer was, Yes.

But then that begs the obvious part 2 - 'What car would you like next?'

It seems to me we are not being asked Q2, it is being answered for us by a bunch of political animals with questionable motives, and when they decide what it is to be, I won't be given an alternative.

What a stupid way to run a country. And all because of a political muddle.

It seems to me we should have researched properly leaving vs remaining, then a broad description of the two possible outcomes could have been given. Then we vote for one or the other.

How much did Putin pay Cameron to agree to a referendum and pose such a basic question?
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: guest4871 on March 06, 2018, 12:56:01 PM

How much did Putin pay Cameron to agree to a referendum and pose such a basic question?

 :o I thought it was the Electoral Commission that changed the question to what it became.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: richardfrost on March 06, 2018, 01:14:21 PM
Who elected the Electoral Commission?
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: guest4871 on March 06, 2018, 01:19:09 PM
Who elected the Electoral Commission?

https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0007/232864/2016-17-Annual-report-and-Accounts-English.pdf
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: Jocko on March 06, 2018, 01:19:33 PM
Who elected the Electoral Commission?
The Electoral Commission is an independent body set up by the UK Parliament. It regulates party and election finance and sets standards for well-run elections. The commission is independent of government and answerable to Parliament.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: JohnAlways on March 06, 2018, 01:20:06 PM
How come someone calling some else a "remoaner" isn't a Hate Crime? Every other derogatory term seems to be these days!
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: Jocko on March 06, 2018, 01:36:21 PM
Cause I love Paul, really.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: culzean on March 06, 2018, 02:19:44 PM
It is as well for people to remember that the status Quo has never been an option with the EU,  had we stayed in our armed forces would have soon been under the control of Brussels,  we would have had to join the Euro, there was to be a EU wide tax system introduced and we would probably been forced into schengen area.  The EU mindset has always been 'whatever the question the answer is always tighter political union, more centralisation and micro-managment'.  Republic of Ireland has been successful with its low tax economy and attracted inward investment because UK was there to fight its corner,  without us they will be bullied mercilessly (in the same way they are being pressurised by EU on the border question).
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: madasafish on March 06, 2018, 03:10:42 PM
I sincerely hope I have remembered this fairly correctly.
BMW produce the Mini in the UK.  BUT on TV a couple of days ago and here I hope I am correct, the Mini is part assembled in UK, then taken to France for 'interior'. Returned to UK and then off to Germany for the engine to be fitted. Back to the Uk no doubt to be exported.

If I have got his correct, isn't about time this lunacy was stopped, how much in cost is added to the final product? for the idiots to cough up at the dealership.
If the Europeans want to pay these stupid games, then whatever Blighty decides to do, so long as it is to stop the European gravy train then it must only be a good thing.
It does seem most are of this opinion and I agree with the sentiment of lets tell the Continent to take a hike and we will get on with the rest of the World.
Europe has NEVER been a friend of the UK so lets grab the chance and let them drown in their own idiocy.

Err no...The Mini Hatch/Hardtop, Clubman, Coupe and Roadster are assembled at BMW's Plant Oxford in Cowley, England[8]. The Mini Convertible and Countryman are assembled at VDL Nedcar in Born (Netherlands), the Mini Hatch/Hardtop is also assembled here besides the Oxford plant.[9]   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini_(marque)
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: culzean on March 06, 2018, 04:10:35 PM
I sincerely hope I have remembered this fairly correctly.
BMW produce the Mini in the UK.  BUT on TV a couple of days ago and here I hope I am correct, the Mini is part assembled in UK, then taken to France for 'interior'. Returned to UK and then off to Germany for the engine to be fitted. Back to the Uk no doubt to be exported.

If I have got his correct, isn't about time this lunacy was stopped, how much in cost is added to the final product? for the idiots to cough up at the dealership.
If the Europeans want to pay these stupid games, then whatever Blighty decides to do, so long as it is to stop the European gravy train then it must only be a good thing.
It does seem most are of this opinion and I agree with the sentiment of lets tell the Continent to take a hike and we will get on with the rest of the World.
Europe has NEVER been a friend of the UK so lets grab the chance and let them drown in their own idiocy.

Err no...The Mini Hatch/Hardtop, Clubman, Coupe and Roadster are assembled at BMW's Plant Oxford in Cowley, England[8]. The Mini Convertible and Countryman are assembled at VDL Nedcar in Born (Netherlands), the Mini Hatch/Hardtop is also assembled here besides the Oxford plant.[9]   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini_(marque)

Pretty much every BMW 4 cylinder engine is built in Hams Hall , Birmingham. Also the trick 3 cylinder for the i8 made there.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: culzean on March 07, 2018, 09:09:43 AM
To be fair - Ted Heath (Heath the teeth) did get a nice 'with compliment' slip from the EEC (European Economic Community) in the cabin of his brand new Yacht 'Morning Cloud' (widely rumoured at the time to be a gift from Europeans, for 'services rendered') - it simply said 'welcome the the Hotel CalifornEU,  you can check out any time ' (lyrics courtesy of  The Eagles).

https://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/eagles/hotelcalifornia.html

the last three verses and last  two lines just about cover it.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: guest5079 on March 07, 2018, 11:38:39 AM
I apologise for my mis inform about the Mini. Where I got it I know not.
BUT this am looking in the cupboard for a photograph ( before I get queries, photos are in albums in the cupboard) I came a cross  a booklet published in 2004. It was information about the EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY. So we have been in this club since 1975 and it's within the last 14 yrs it has changed to this European super power.
I believe poor old Ted Heath had to stump up many thousands of pounds to avoid being in trouble about his gift.
It seems this nice Mr Krust!!!! has threatened us yet again, we will have to PAY to leave.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: guest1372 on March 07, 2018, 12:26:19 PM
No apologies necessary auntyneddy as Teresa May was quoting Mini cross channel trips only last week. 
It's just a little bit more specific - i.e. a crankshaft forged in France is machined in Hams Hall, then built into a diesel engine in Frankfurt before getting married to the vehicle in Cowley then possibly exported for sale across the channel.
--
TG
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: Jocko on March 07, 2018, 01:26:34 PM
As I pointed out several days ago.

Not quite auntmeddy's sojourn but just as bad.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/mar/03/brexit-uk-car-industry-mini-britain-eu (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/mar/03/brexit-uk-car-industry-mini-britain-eu)
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: Basil on March 07, 2018, 07:31:52 PM
For me, it is really simple. I was quite disatisfied with my last car, so if a referendum asked a simple question - 'Do you want to change your car - yes or no?' then my answer was, Yes.

But then that begs the obvious part 2 - 'What car would you like next?'

It seems to me we are not being asked Q2, it is being answered for us by a bunch of political animals with questionable motives, and when they decide what it is to be, I won't be given an alternative.

What a stupid way to run a country. And all because of a political muddle.

It seems to me we should have researched properly leaving vs remaining, then a broad description of the two possible outcomes could have been given. Then we vote for one or the other.

How much did Putin pay Cameron to agree to a referendum and pose such a basic question?

I agree with the first part but a lot of the voters didn't even think about what car they would get, they just believed it when two people with kept telling them they would be financially better off after getting it.

Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: culzean on March 07, 2018, 08:56:04 PM
For me, it is really simple. I was quite disatisfied with my last car, so if a referendum asked a simple question - 'Do you want to change your car - yes or no?' then my answer was, Yes.

But then that begs the obvious part 2 - 'What car would you like next?'

It seems to me we are not being asked Q2, it is being answered for us by a bunch of political animals with questionable motives, and when they decide what it is to be, I won't be given an alternative.

What a stupid way to run a country. And all because of a political muddle.

It seems to me we should have researched properly leaving vs remaining, then a broad description of the two possible outcomes could have been given. Then we vote for one or the other.

How much did Putin pay Cameron to agree to a referendum and pose such a basic question?

I agree with the first part but a lot of the voters didn't even think about what car they would get, they just believed it when two people with kept telling them they would be financially better off after getting it.

Remainers are very quick to question the education level of people who voted leave,  but the truth is the longer people spend in our lefty / liberal biased  education system the more brainwashed they get.  The fact is that as a country we voted leave,  it is no good saying, but people did not realise we would have to leave the single market, that we would leave the customs union, because of course they did.  Try telling South African black people they did not want freedom,  they are a lot worse off financially ( 50%+ unemployment) and in pretty much every way (especially in Zimbabwe  / formerly Rhodesia under Mugabe and his successor ) but they have their freedom.  Not everything comes down to money,  some things are too precious to put a price on, and taking back control of our laws from the micro-managing customs cartel that puts up tariff barriers against free trade is one of them.  Trump is going to sort the EU unfair trade out pretty soon,  and then their share of world trade will will sink even further - the EU is fast becoming irrelevant in the world,  a failed 1950's project in political ideology,  they go the same way as the USSR.

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/312751-nothing-in-the-world-is-worth-having-or-worth-doing
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: MartinJG on March 07, 2018, 10:12:03 PM
To be fair - Ted Heath (Heath the teeth) did get a nice 'with compliment' slip from the EEC (European Economic Community) in the cabin of his brand new Yacht 'Morning Cloud' (widely rumoured at the time to be a gift from Europeans, for 'services rendered') - it simply said 'welcome the the Hotel CalifornEU,  you can check out any time ' (lyrics courtesy of  The Eagles).

https://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/eagles/hotelcalifornia.html

the last three verses and last  two lines just about cover it.

Yes. Very appropriate.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: MartinJG on March 07, 2018, 10:48:27 PM
For me, it is really simple. I was quite disatisfied with my last car, so if a referendum asked a simple question - 'Do you want to change your car - yes or no?' then my answer was, Yes.

But then that begs the obvious part 2 - 'What car would you like next?'

It seems to me we are not being asked Q2, it is being answered for us by a bunch of political animals with questionable motives, and when they decide what it is to be, I won't be given an alternative.

What a stupid way to run a country. And all because of a political muddle.

It seems to me we should have researched properly leaving vs remaining, then a broad description of the two possible outcomes could have been given. Then we vote for one or the other.

How much did Putin pay Cameron to agree to a referendum and pose such a basic question?

I agree with the first part but a lot of the voters didn't even think about what car they would get, they just believed it when two people with kept telling them they would be financially better off after getting it.

Remainers are very quick to question the education level of people who voted leave,  but the truth is the longer people spend in our lefty / liberal biased  education system the more brainwashed they get.  The fact is that as a country we voted leave,  it is no good saying, but people did not realise we would have to leave the single market, that we would leave the customs union, because of course they did.  Try telling South African black people they did not want freedom,  they are a lot worse off financially ( 50%+ unemployment) and in pretty much every way (especially in Zimbabwe  / formerly Rhodesia under Mugabe and his successor ) but they have their freedom.  Not everything comes down to money,  some things are too precious to put a price on, and taking back control of our laws from the micro-managing customs cartel that puts up tariff barriers against free trade is one of them.  Trump is going to sort the EU unfair trade out pretty soon,  and then their share of world trade will will sink even further - the EU is fast becoming irrelevant in the world,  a failed 1950's project in political ideology,  they go the same way as the USSR.

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/312751-nothing-in-the-world-is-worth-having-or-worth-doing

I know of a psychologist who conducted a series of experiments with chickens. It seems he felt lab rats had been done to death.  It was a simple experiment on a chicken farm. I will skip the details. In short, they opened the cages of battery hens and gave them the chance to become free range hens. Trouble is, they were terrified. The grass certainly looked greener on the other side but it was all a bit risky. They tried everything to entice them out. The only way they could remove them was by dragging them from their cages, but such was the conditioning of these wretched creatures, that they fought desperately to get back to the safety of their incarceration. Never underestimate 'Battery Hen Syndrome'. Plenty of it about.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: culzean on March 08, 2018, 08:03:32 AM
I know of a psychologist who conducted a series of experiments with chickens. It seems he felt lab rats had been done to death.  It was a simple experiment on a chicken farm. I will skip the details. In short, they opened the cages of battery hens and gave them the chance to become free range hens. Trouble is, they were terrified. The grass certainly looked greener on the other side but it was all a bit risky. They tried everything to entice them out. The only way they could remove them was by dragging them from their cages, but such was the conditioning of these wretched creatures, that they fought desperately to get back to the safety of their incarceration. Never underestimate 'Battery Hen Syndrome'. Plenty of it about.

Good point,  but a lot of the older chickens in UK could remember a life before they were incarcerated - some of the millennial chickens and younger had never known any other system and obviously thought it was normal,  probably because they were allowed to move freely to other battery cages on the continent.

Talking about chickens,  the attached PDF creased me.

Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: Jocko on March 08, 2018, 08:24:59 AM
As a long time SNP voter and someone who voted Yes to independence the SNP stance on Brexit has enraged me. I will no longer vote SNP. In fact, my intention is to vote for the party which will give us the "hardest" Brexit (so currently Tory whom I have never voted for in my life).
The SNP slogan used to be "Lend us your vote", but a wee taste of power has changed that. In any future Independence Referendum I will still vote Yes, but then do my utmost to see the SNP are ousted in Scotland. Mind you, by the time that comes about Brexit will be long done and dusted.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: MartinJG on March 08, 2018, 09:16:35 AM
I know of a psychologist who conducted a series of experiments with chickens. It seems he felt lab rats had been done to death.  It was a simple experiment on a chicken farm. I will skip the details. In short, they opened the cages of battery hens and gave them the chance to become free range hens. Trouble is, they were terrified. The grass certainly looked greener on the other side but it was all a bit risky. They tried everything to entice them out. The only way they could remove them was by dragging them from their cages, but such was the conditioning of these wretched creatures, that they fought desperately to get back to the safety of their incarceration. Never underestimate 'Battery Hen Syndrome'. Plenty of it about.

Good point,  but a lot of the older chickens in UK could remember a life before they were incarcerated - some of the millennial chickens and younger had never known any other system and obviously thought it was normal,  probably because they were allowed to move freely to other battery cages on the continent.

Talking about chickens,  the attached PDF creased me.

That woman is never short of a word or two, anything to get a bit of attention. Trouble is with these types is that we have to suffer their indulgence at great cost. Perhaps appropriately, the immortal lines from MacBeth spring to mind of a 'walking shadow, a poor player, that struts and frets his hour upon the stage, and then is heard no more. It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.' There is of course a terrible flaw in Will's text with reference to 'his', hence the bold print. Not very PC and would doubtless have been 'castrated' at the approval stage by the good conduct council of today were he a contemporary commentator.

Reminds me of the late Sir Patrick Moore on Room 101 with Paul Merton. One of his pet hates was 'squeeky women' or should I say 'sqweeky women' in that distinctive voice. This was from a man who appears to have been a confirmed batchelor for life. Question is, was it by design or did he just get lucky...
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: sparky Paul on March 08, 2018, 09:42:29 AM
The fact is that as a country we voted leave,  it is no good saying, but people did not realise we would have to leave the single market, that we would leave the customs union, because of course they did.

I don't agree with that at all. You may have selective memory, but it was certainly not the universal message espoused by the leave campaign. I can remember Daniel Hannan, who enjoyed significant airtime during the campaign, clearly telling an interviewer that “absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the single market.”

Your comment above would also carry more weight if the people you are talking about actually understood what the single market or customs union actually is, and what it means to them. I'm not talking about people like us who follow politics, I'm talking about your average man or woman in the street. You may think that is patronising, but in my experience, there are a lot of folk who still have no idea.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: Jocko on March 08, 2018, 09:48:42 AM
I'm talking about your average man or woman in the street.
It never fails to amaze me just how "thick" the average man in the street really is. And I don't just mean with reference to politics. And Scotland is thicker than the rest of the UK.
https://www.scotsman.com/news/scotland-lags-europe-in-iq-league-1-487587 (https://www.scotsman.com/news/scotland-lags-europe-in-iq-league-1-487587)
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: sparky Paul on March 08, 2018, 10:06:34 AM
It never fails to amaze me just how "thick" the average man in the street really is. And I don't just mean with reference to politics. And Scotland is thicker than the rest of the UK.

I was trying to be diplomatic, but saying that "everyone understood this stuff when they voted" is utter cobblers.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: MartinJG on March 08, 2018, 11:02:18 AM
My own stance on this is quite clear. I have no problems with joining a free trade club where there is a democratic input. However, this has never been the case with the EEC. The Brits have always been regarded as a thorn in the side simply because we called into question a number of resolutions and practices. Over the years, it is well known that while we were arguing over Queensbury Rules of fair play and good sense, certain other members simply acquiesced to keep the peace but secretly had no intention of ever fullfilling their obligations, more notably the Club Med bunch. This was folly from the word go and it has now come back to haunt. The initiation of the EU's grandiose plans for total control at the time of Blair and his fellow fudgers was the bridge too far but they had neither the vision nor the whit to recognise it. We are now left to sort out the mess. The process of democracy is nothing more than an ongoing trial in itself which should be underpinned by the available facts and rigorous intellect. An examination if you like. Enter politicians and spin. Exit the people who all too often have 'better things to do' and leave the manipulators to their devious devices. It is said that in democracy we deserve the governments we get. It is largely true but I believe we deserve better than this. The current crop of politicians are , in the main, a bunch of self serving, second rate sycophants and we put them there. Most of them have never done a day's work in the real world. The real problem we now face is that democracy is struggling to function properly largely because we are now in the grip of a body of people who are little more than quasi civil servants. That is not their role. They are there to represent their constituents. The real problem we now face is that the 'Blairites', for want of a better term, exist in large numbers on both sides of the floor. What is missing is a viable 'alternative' party to truly represent the concerns of a large swathe of this country. In this, it has been my experience that left and right share similar notes. The sooner we see Jacob Rees-Mogg in office the better. He is an excellent 'old school' parliamentarian who has the whit, intellect and integrity that is sadly absent from the current crop of squatters in the lower house. I am afraid the upper house is water under the bridge. For the record, I shall be writing to my local MP to address these very points as soon as I have collected my thoughts on this and a number of wider issues. I really wish others would do the same in the interests of democracy if only to remind them they have crossed the line too many times. 
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: Jocko on March 08, 2018, 11:09:58 AM
It's all here "The Road to Somewhere: The Populist Revolt and the Future of Politics" by David Goodhart. Get a degree in politics and become a politician!
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: culzean on March 08, 2018, 01:10:20 PM
The fact is that as a country we voted leave,  it is no good saying, but people did not realise we would have to leave the single market, that we would leave the customs union, because of course they did.

I don't agree with that at all. You may have selective memory, but it was certainly not the universal message espoused by the leave campaign. I can remember Daniel Hannan, who enjoyed significant airtime during the campaign, clearly telling an interviewer that “absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the single market.”

Your comment above would also carry more weight if the people you are talking about actually understood what the single market or customs union actually is, and what it means to them. I'm not talking about people like us who follow politics, I'm talking about your average man or woman in the street. You may think that is patronising, but in my experience, there are a lot of folk who still have no idea.

Your are right it is patronising,  no one does patronising better than remainers... >:(
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: culzean on March 08, 2018, 01:12:35 PM
My own stance on this is quite clear. I have no problems with joining a free trade club where there is a democratic input. However, this has never been the case with the EEC. The Brits have always been regarded as a thorn in the side simply because we called into question a number of resolutions and practices. Over the years, it is well known that while we were arguing over Queensbury Rules of fair play and good sense, certain other members simply acquiesced to keep the peace but secretly had no intention of ever fullfilling their obligations, more notably the Club Med bunch. This was folly from the word go and it has now come back to haunt. The initiation of the EU's grandiose plans for total control at the time of Blair and his fellow fudgers was the bridge too far but they had neither the vision nor the whit to recognise it. We are now left to sort out the mess. The process of democracy is nothing more than an ongoing trial in itself which should be underpinned by the available facts and rigorous intellect. An examination if you like. Enter politicians and spin. Exit the people who all too often have 'better things to do' and leave the manipulators to their devious devices. It is said that in democracy we deserve the governments we get. It is largely true but I believe we deserve better than this. The current crop of politicians are , in the main, a bunch of self serving, second rate sycophants and we put them there. Most of them have never done a day's work in the real world. The real problem we now face is that democracy is struggling to function properly largely because we are now in the grip of a body of people who are little more than quasi civil servants. That is not their role. They are there to represent their constituents. The real problem we now face is that the 'Blairites', for want of a better term, exist in large numbers on both sides of the floor. What is missing is a viable 'alternative' party to truly represent the concerns of a large swathe of this country. In this, it has been my experience that left and right share similar notes. The sooner we see Jacob Rees-Mogg in office the better. He is an excellent 'old school' parliamentarian who has the whit, intellect and integrity that is sadly absent from the current crop of squatters in the lower house. I am afraid the upper house is water under the bridge. For the record, I shall be writing to my local MP to address these very points as soon as I have collected my thoughts on this and a number of wider issues. I really wish others would do the same in the interests of democracy if only to remind them they have crossed the line too many times. 

'all that it needs for EU to flourish is for democratic people to do nothing'   ( with apologise to Edmund Burke)...
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: sparky Paul on March 08, 2018, 01:54:39 PM
Your are right it is patronising,  no one does patronising better than remainers... >:(

Like I said, you might think it's patronising, but the fact that it makes you all irascible doesn't make my experience untrue.

I've had this conversation with a number of ardent Leave voters, and I can tell you that a worryingly large proportion have no idea of the implications of all these matters, customs unions, single markets, EFTA, etc., apart from the stuff they read in The Sun and Daily Mail.

[quote from deleted post removed by Admin]
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: culzean on March 08, 2018, 02:11:00 PM
The problem I have with the EU assembly and their politics is the lack of accountability. They are really little more than a self appointed body of people who consider they know best and are qualified to rule accordingly.

Presumably, you didn't vote for any of the UK's MEPs?


EU parliament does not function in the same way as people in the UK understand a parliament, they can only discuss what they are told to by the commission (un-elected body) and cannot propose anything - only the commission has that power.

Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: sparky Paul on March 08, 2018, 02:24:43 PM
EU parliament does not function in the same way as people in the UK understand a parliament, they can only discuss what they are told to by the commission (un-elected body) and cannot propose anything - only the commission has that power.

We do have a seat on the Commission, appointed by our elected Government.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: Jocko on March 08, 2018, 03:06:55 PM
We do have a seat on the Commission, appointed by our elected Government.
One voice in 28.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: sparky Paul on March 08, 2018, 03:23:19 PM
We do have a seat on the Commission, appointed by our elected Government.
One voice in 28.

Each member state also has a veto on any decisions made.

I have an MP, he is only one voice in 650. Does that mean I'm not fairly represented? Or should I abide by the consensus?
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: culzean on March 08, 2018, 04:04:33 PM
We do have a seat on the Commission, appointed by our elected Government.
One voice in 28.

Each member state also has a veto on any decisions made.

I have an MP, he is only one voice in 650. Does that mean I'm not fairly represented? Or should I abide by the consensus?

At least you get to vote for your MP personally,  and for a preferred party as well,  your representative on the EUSSR commission is appointed for you by some arcane process.  28 people (soon to be 27) all with vested national interests and nothing in common (not even their political views)  - one region of Belgium stalled the trade deal with Canada for years,  I believe it is still not implemented.

The EU operates at a speed that makes a glacier seem fast, it is fast becoming irrelevant in the world,  its share of world trade is shrinking like a snowball in August.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: guest5079 on March 08, 2018, 04:18:03 PM
Another spanner in the works courtesy of the European Commission. This am on the radio, Spain has been given a veto over the Gibralter question. It seems we are threatened by the EU stating NOTHING will be agreed if the Gibralter question is not sorted to Spain's satisfaction.
These people in Europe are always on about treaties and yet, Gibralter's treaty  doesn't count and the Argentinians don't recognise Bristish sovereignty over the Falklands. Strange that both speak Spanish or a derivative.
As to understanding about the customs union and the single market, I freely admit I do not understand it, why because some prat or group of prats makes sure ordinary English is not to be used. The more confusion these so called experts can cause suits their vested interests.
Why is it all these so called experts are so frightened of straight forward common sense English. The French have never forgiven us for the fact that English is the international language, its a pity we English don't speak it.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: JimSh on March 08, 2018, 04:40:28 PM
Hi,
 I’ve been lurking on this site for about a year since I bought a second hand Jazz. (2014 plate ES plus).
I’ve always been impressed by the depth of knowledge and experience  on the site on matters relating to cars and other things. I’ve enjoyed reading the anecdotes from the past.
So it gave me a great surprise when I came upon this Brexit related thread and read most of the comments.
I’m strictly in the remainer camp and can foresee nothing other than an unmitigated disaster from this totally unnecessary exercise. The document released today makes grim reading. See especially P16

https://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/Exiting-the-European-Union/17-19/Cross-Whitehall-briefing/EU-Exit-Analysis-Cross-Whitehall-Briefing.pdf

Hope you guys are right but I’ve yet to see one sensible reason for leaving the EU
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: JimSh on March 08, 2018, 05:07:38 PM
To auntneddy,
It always surprises me that the negotiators for the EU have a perfect command of English and express  their position in a few  well-chosen  words whereas the UK negotiators despite,  their “superior” expensive education, use many unnecessary long words and say nothing of importance.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: sparky Paul on March 08, 2018, 05:53:09 PM
I’ve been lurking on this site for about a year since I bought a second hand Jazz. (2014 plate ES plus).

A belated welcome to the forum! I was new to the forum too last year, I found a wealth of useful information, not to mention some very knowledgeable people.

I’m strictly in the remainer camp and can foresee nothing other than an unmitigated disaster from this totally unnecessary exercise. The document released today makes grim reading. See especially P16

https://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/Exiting-the-European-Union/17-19/Cross-Whitehall-briefing/EU-Exit-Analysis-Cross-Whitehall-Briefing.pdf

Hope you guys are right but I’ve yet to see one sensible reason for leaving the EU

I don't think it will be any surprise to you that I'm of a similar mind, though I think the real damage is going to be long term. I still believe that impending EU tax haven legislation has had more to do with Brexit than anything.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: Jocko on March 08, 2018, 06:14:02 PM
The document released today makes grim reading. See especially P16

https://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/Exiting-the-European-Union/17-19/Cross-Whitehall-briefing/EU-Exit-Analysis-Cross-Whitehall-Briefing.pdf
This is typical of the fake news Trump is always going on about. This is just more of the scaremongering this thread has been discussing.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: sparky Paul on March 08, 2018, 07:12:25 PM
It never ceases to amaze me how every anti-EU thinktank study or opinion or is paraded as fact, but anything which shows Brexit in a negative light is 'fake news'.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: culzean on March 08, 2018, 08:36:52 PM
The document released today makes grim reading. See especially P16

https://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/Exiting-the-European-Union/17-19/Cross-Whitehall-briefing/EU-Exit-Analysis-Cross-Whitehall-Briefing.pdf
This is typical of the fake news Trump is always going on about. This is just more of the scaremongering this thread has been discussing.


Ah,  an unbiased report by the Exiting The EU Committee chaired by that duplicitous little EU toad Hillary Benn (his father Tony Benn must be spinning faster than a gyroscope in his casket).   Just surprised his committee is not based in Brussels.  A couple of days ago the right dishonourable Hillary was heard to proclaim that there is no solution to the Irish border question,  he has a very short memory as a couple of months ago the head of HMRC gave evidence to his committee - as shown in this short clip.


The EU's own committee issued a research paper just a few months ago and their findings were that a technical solution is available that has already been used in other parts of the world for many years. 

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2017/596828/IPOL_STU(2017)596828_EN.pdf

They used to call people like Hillary Benn and Tony B Liar   '5th columnists' or 'the enemy within' - I would still call them that ( another word I fancy is 'Quisling'.

Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: culzean on March 08, 2018, 08:48:21 PM
I don't think it will be any surprise to you that I'm of a similar mind, though I think the real damage is going to be long term. I still believe that impending EU tax haven legislation has had more to do with Brexit than anything.

Wow,   what an amazing insight you just had, I am sure the badly educated politically unaware people from oop North who voted for Brexit have a vested interest in tax havens.   Why wouldn't they ? must have loads of money they would rather not pay UK tax on.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: RichardA on March 08, 2018, 09:21:51 PM
Remainers are very quick to question the education level of people who voted leave

I voted remain and I was incensed by the way some remainers dismissed leavers as uneducated.

[removed by Admin]
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: Jocko on March 08, 2018, 09:25:06 PM
It never ceases to amaze me how every anti-EU thinktank study or opinion or is paraded as fact, but anything which shows Brexit in a negative light is 'fake news'.
There are scaremongers on both sides of the argument.  As a leaver I see the exact opposite from what you do.
Only good point today is the news that Spain will put a block on any deal unless they get Gibraltar back! That and the Irish border issues should see the hardest Brexit possible. Just what I hoped for.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: sparky Paul on March 08, 2018, 09:27:26 PM
The EU's own committee issued a research paper just a few months ago and their findings were that a technical solution is available that has already been used in other parts of the world for many years. 

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2017/596828/IPOL_STU(2017)596828_EN.pdf

That's not quite accurate. This was a report commissioned by and produced for the European Parliament's Committee on Constitutional Affairs, and you seem to have completely ignored the disclaimer on page 4 -

"The opinions expressed in this document are the sole responsibility of the author and do not necessarily represent the official position of the European Parliament.".

The recommended technical approach is based on one objective, speeding up the passage of registered traders across the border - a border with over 200 crossing points. Even if number plate scanners were used, there would still have to be new infrastructure in the form of cameras or other devices situated at border points.

The study does not address the problem of parties crossing who are not registered, whether they be smugglers, illegal immigrants or just too small to afford the 'trusted trader' certification. The study suggests such people must present themselves voluntarily to manned checkpoints, so some policing will be required for this, and presumably to perform random checks to ensure that there is no corruption or even human error - for example enforcing rules of origin, checks on the transport of dangerous materials, or animal welfare.

The problem is that the study's focus is solely on trade. More worryingly, the study only mentions the Good Friday Agreement in a single line passing reference (page 14).


I don't think it will be any surprise to you that I'm of a similar mind, though I think the real damage is going to be long term. I still believe that impending EU tax haven legislation has had more to do with Brexit than anything.

Wow,   what an amazing insight you just had, I am sure the badly educated politically unaware people from oop North who voted for Brexit have a vested interest in tax havens.   Why wouldn't they ? must have loads of money they would rather not pay UK tax on.

There's that straw man again.

You know the sort of people I'm talking about. Wealthy individuals who pumped millions into the 'Leave' campaigns, many of which aren't even resident in this country for tax purposes, yet use their newspaper output and their wealth to pervert democracy here.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/nov/09/brexiters-put-money-offshore-tax-haven
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: sparky Paul on March 08, 2018, 09:49:52 PM
It never ceases to amaze me how every anti-EU thinktank study or opinion or is paraded as fact, but anything which shows Brexit in a negative light is 'fake news'.
There are scaremongers on both sides of the argument.  As a leaver I see the exact opposite from what you do.

I wouldn't disagree with that, there was indeed much scaremongering on both sides.

However, I was specifically addressing the point about "fake news", and I would be genuinely surprised that you think that more accusations of "fake news" came from the 'remain' campaigns.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: culzean on March 09, 2018, 09:45:50 AM
[quote from deleted post removed by Admin]

Personally I took no heed of messages from either side during run-up to referendum,  I had thought almost since the EEC morphed into the EC in 1993 and certainly after the Lisbon treaty (when Ireland got the 'wrong result' in their referendum and as instructed to keep voting till they got the 'right answer' ) that we should no longer be a member as it was obvious that the EU was becoming a political monster rather than a trading bloc.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: culzean on March 09, 2018, 10:01:36 AM
The study does not address the problem of parties crossing who are not registered, whether they be smugglers, illegal immigrants or just too small to afford the 'trusted trader' certification. The study suggests such people must present themselves voluntarily to manned checkpoints, so some policing will be required for this, and presumably to perform random checks to ensure that there is no corruption or even human error - for example enforcing rules of origin, checks on the transport of dangerous materials, or animal welfare.

I don't think it will be any surprise to you that I'm of a similar mind, though I think the real damage is going to be long term. I still believe that impending EU tax haven legislation has had more to do with Brexit than anything.

Wow,   what an amazing insight you just had, I am sure the badly educated politically unaware people from oop North who voted for Brexit have a vested interest in tax havens.   Why wouldn't they ? must have loads of money they would rather not pay UK tax on.

There's that straw man again.

You know the sort of people I'm talking about. Wealthy individuals who pumped millions into the 'Leave' campaigns, many of which aren't even resident in this country for tax purposes, yet use their newspaper output and their wealth to pervert democracy here.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/nov/09/brexiters-put-money-offshore-tax-haven

As for people and things crossing borders that are not registered,  smugglers etc.  - that is exactly the problem with the present EU borders,  terrorists have fled over borders easily after attacks, soft borders are a gift to bad people.  I consider RoI and UK to be civilised well ordered countries,  if they cannot come up with a suitable border system then no-one can.   The GFA also states that there should be no change in relationship between NI and UK,  which EU seems to ignore in their disingenuous attempts to cause problems that don't really exist,  the EU sees the border question as its last hope of derailing Brexit - they are fighting for their political ideology and the continued existence of the EU, these are desperate people.  With goodwill on both sides a border is never an issue,  but there is scant goodwill coming from EU.  The problem is we have quislings like B Liar , Major and Soubry working with the EU and fuelling them up with information - Barnier and company have met with CorBINO (Corbyn = Brexit In Name Only) and others despite the fact they have declared they will only negotiate with legitimate government of UK.

I have no doubts loads of vested interest money poured into both sides, people accuse Russia of interfering when it suits them,  but EU had far more to lose than Russia had to gain,  so I bet EU was also interfering (something it has had a lot of practice at over the years).
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: sparky Paul on March 09, 2018, 11:33:34 AM
With goodwill on both sides a border is never an issue,  but there is scant goodwill coming from EU.

Which goes back to the same point I made earlier, there's no way the EU can be seen to be giving the UK an easy ride. The end point will probably be the same, no matter how the negotiations are conducted, there is absolutely nothing for them to gain by making it look easy.


I have no doubts loads of vested interest money poured into both sides, people accuse Russia of interfering when it suits them,  but EU had far more to lose than Russia had to gain,  so I bet EU was also interfering (something it has had a lot of practice at over the years).

I suspect that Russia has a great deal to gain by destabilising the EU.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: culzean on March 09, 2018, 12:39:58 PM
With goodwill on both sides a border is never an issue,  but there is scant goodwill coming from EU.

Which goes back to the same point I made earlier, there's no way the EU can be seen to be giving the UK an easy ride. The end point will probably be the same, no matter how the negotiations are conducted, there is absolutely nothing for them to gain by making it look easy.


I have no doubts loads of vested interest money poured into both sides, people accuse Russia of interfering when it suits them,  but EU had far more to lose than Russia had to gain,  so I bet EU was also interfering (something it has had a lot of practice at over the years).

I suspect that Russia has a great deal to gain by destabilising the EU.

No doubt they will reach a compromise on 28th March 2019 - as negotiators always do,  it is a war of attrition.

Russia is probably still upset by EU poking its nose into Ukraine and trying to cause trouble (pretty much a land-grab of a bordering country by EU).  Russia has no worries about mainland Europes military capability,  they have not got one (especially since the large 'white flag' factory in France burned down, and France lost 95% of its military capability until they can rebuild the factory but it may be cheaper to buy white flags from China in future).  In a recent military exercise Germany could only come up with about 7 serviceable tanks,  they have been freeloading on NATO (read  USA + UK) for too long.  Trump will not put up with it the way O'barmy did, and is also making noises about EU unfair trade policy with USA. 

 Although this article came out a few weeks after referendum it is a true today as ever..
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/07/three-great-myths-of-the-sulking-remainers/
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: JimSh on March 09, 2018, 03:36:26 PM
Jings. Somebody's opened a right can of worms here. Loads of posts.
Apologies if I've mucked up your forum. Don't think I've got the hang of this quote business yet

[edit by Admin - fixed it for you! :) ]

Quote
There are scaremongers on both sides of the argument.  As a leaver I see the exact opposite from what you do.
Only good point today is the news that Spain will put a block on any deal unless they get Gibraltar back! That and the Irish border issues should see the hardest Brexit possible. Just what I hoped for.

Why do you want a hard Brexit?
The only people to benefit from that will be the tax- evading ultra rich with money stashed away offshore.
If that applies to you I don't think you would be on the Honda Jazz forum.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: Jocko on March 09, 2018, 04:27:50 PM
Why do you want a hard Brexit?
I want us to walk away from the EU without giving them any more money. The balance of trade is more EU to UK than the other way round. It might pinch a few EU pockets.
I don't see how it will help the Ultra rich. They live by there own rules anyway.
If I was one of them it would be a Jaguar i-PACE, not a Leaf!
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: culzean on March 09, 2018, 04:34:16 PM
Why do you want a hard Brexit?
The only people to benefit from that will be the tax- evading ultra rich with money stashed away offshore.
If that applies to you I don't think you would be on the Honda Jazz forum.

It looks like EU negotiators have no interest in actually negotiating, just sniggering and putting up roadblocks - and they will not talk sense until they realise UK will walk away from table soon, and away from EU on 29 March 2019 if they carry on the way they are doing.   The last thing they want is a competitive nation on their doorstep that welcomes free trade (EU is a trade cartel) - with the Mediterranean countries in economic meltdown and a new eurosceptic government in Italy to join the one in Austria.  Poland and Hungary refusing to accept middle east migrants and some EU laws - they have their back to the wall are not going to let their liberal-socialist federal superstate dream go down the gurgler without a struggle,  but their days are numbered - a strange 1950's idea that is irrelevant in the modern world.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/929107/brexit-news-eu-uk-government-walkout-no-deal-scenario-draft-text-latest-update?utm_source=spotim&utm_medium=spotim_recirculation&spotim_referrer=recirculation
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: guest1372 on March 09, 2018, 05:22:46 PM
So your view is it's a capitalist cabal & a socialist mecca? 

[removed by Admin]

TG
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: JimSh on March 09, 2018, 07:16:04 PM
Hi Culzean and Jocko,
Sorry I took so long to get back to you. I had written out a long answer and then found it was too long to post.
The EU negotiating team has been open, transparent and professional in the talks. The UK team on the other hand has been unprepared, inconsistent and deliberately confusing in its approach. It is little wonder that the EU negotiators are getting a bit pissed off.
The problems with the country are not due to the EU but to the devious Conservative Government and its austerity programme.
We had a good deal within the EU. We had many concessions - our own currency and a rebate negotiated by Margaret Thatcher. We won't get a better deal.
Jocko, If we walk out without paying, who will we make deals with.
The ultra rich including the owners of the Telegraph, Express and Mail want to avoid paying tax on money which they have stored offshore. See Paradise Papers. The EU is clamping down on this in summer 2019 which is why the Tories want out of EU laws.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: JimSh on March 09, 2018, 07:35:05 PM
Jocko,
Just seen that the UK government  has told Scottish and Welsh ministers they are likely to be barred from controlling policy in areas such as genetically modified crops, fishing and agriculture.
Looks like the Scottish fishermen are about to be shafted again.
They were shafted when the UK went into the common market.
Again it wasn't the Europeans who were responsible. It was the Ted Heath Government.
It came to light a few years ago when official papers were released by the 30 year law that Heath was aware that the Scottish Fishing industry would  be ruined by the deal that he made but was prepared to write it off. I think he got a new yacht as a result.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: culzean on March 09, 2018, 08:09:26 PM
Hi Culzean and Jocko,

The EU negotiating team has been open, transparent and professional in the talks. The UK team on the other hand has been unprepared, inconsistent and deiberately confusing in its approach. It is little wonder that the EU negotiators are getting a bit pissed off.
The problems with the country are not due to the EU but to the devious Conservative Government and its austerity programme.

We had a good deal within the EU. We had many concessions - our own currency and a rebate negotiated by Margaret Thatcher. We won't get a better deal.

EU negotiating team open and professional = bunch of bullies who go back on deals already made at previous stage and come the hard bunch again.  The time is fast approaching where Barnier will have to put his ego back in its box and listen to business in the EU, who want things to continue as they are now after Brexit, they are not into the political ideology side of things,  they just want to sell goods and make a profit.

Conservative austerity program = way to reduce national debt,  Labour have always run up massive debt by uncontrolled spending,  Conservatives get elected and try to balance the books and people say it is their fault.

We had a good deal with EU, wow I never realised that, does that mean they weren't really taking all that money off us to buy their way into other joining countries hearts and minds and drag them into their spiders web.   What did we get for the money except a bunch of rules and regulations that hampered our ability to trade with the rest of the planet ?   People who voted Brexit expected a financial hit and some rough water ahead,  but like Jocko I think we should walk away from the table as EU not interested in negotiating, we give them not a penny more  and leave on 29 March next year.

As the terrorist threat continues to grow   EU will have to introduce border checks if they are not to leave themselves wide open to free movement of terrorists throughout their schengen area.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: JimSh on March 09, 2018, 09:03:44 PM
If I remember correctly, it was David Davis who tried to renege on the first phase agreement .

https://news.sky.com/story/david-davis-slammed-for-calling-brexit-deal-statement-of-intent-11167642

Verhofstadt  then said that he would be forced to have a legal document drawn up to prevent giving Davis any wriggle room.
Davis claimed this was unfair.
Jim
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: JimSh on March 09, 2018, 09:42:04 PM
Quote
We had a good deal with EU, wow I never realised that, does that mean they weren't really taking all that money off us to buy their way into other joining countries hearts and minds and drag them into their spiders web.   What did we get for the money except a bunch of rules and regulations that hampered our ability to trade with the rest of the planet ?
unquote

Money was taken from the richer areas and distributed to poorer areas.
That seems like an admirable objective to me.
Many of the poorer regions in the UK benefited from such  donations. You must have seen signs saying "erected with EU funding"
They funded renovations to Hull harbour.

http://www.humberlep.org/business/funding/

What I can't understand is why Hull then voted overwhelmingly to leave.

Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: sparky Paul on March 09, 2018, 10:24:26 PM
Money was taken from the richer areas and distributed to poorer areas.
That seems like an admirable objective to me.
Many of the poorer regions in the UK benefited from such  donations.

That is at the root of the objections by the wealthy and the right wing press to the EU. It is, essentially, a socialist project.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: richardfrost on March 09, 2018, 11:21:14 PM
They funded renovations to Hull harbour.

http://www.humberlep.org/business/funding/

What I can't understand is why Hull then voted overwhelmingly to leave.

Perhaps because a renovated harbour is not much use to a decimated fishing fleet. Which happened, I think, as a result of European policies.

But nevertheless I voted to remain, as in the whole I believe we are better in than out.

Shortly after the Leave vote, Lincolnshire farmers were interviewed wondering where they would get their cheap labour from to pick their crops, and where would they sell the crops. And yet Lincolnshire voted heavily to Leave.

You see turkeys do sometimes vote for Christmas.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: sparky Paul on March 10, 2018, 12:21:30 AM
They funded renovations to Hull harbour.

http://www.humberlep.org/business/funding/

What I can't understand is why Hull then voted overwhelmingly to leave.

Perhaps because a renovated harbour is not much use to a decimated fishing fleet. Which happened, I think, as a result of European policies.

Not directly. The Hull and Grimsby trawler fleets were heavily reliant on fishing Icelandic waters, and the UK's failure in the cod wars ensured that the ports would suffer terminal decline.

The UK's capitulation was as a result of pressure from our friends in the US, after Iceland threatened to leave NATO and close the NATO base there. Because the Hull, Grimsby and NE Scottish fleets had not historically fished UK waters, the British Government had neglected to secure a proper share of EU fishing quotas.

Ironically, whilst there is much talk of a 'decimated' fishing industry, on current quotas the UK fishing fleet lands the second highest catch of all EU countries, around 700,000 tonnes - second only to Spain.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: JimSh on March 10, 2018, 09:00:05 AM
To Paul and Richard,
Thanks very much for all the info on Hull. Exactly the same with Peterhead. Tories blame EU for decimating fishing industry. EU money to rebuild harbour. Now Tories want control of Scottish fishing and farming.
The Scottish Government want to stop this but are being trivialised by right wing press.

Re Lincolnshire farmers.
Could it be anything to do with Sir James Dyson ?

https://whoownsengland.org/2017/09/19/why-is-james-dyson-hoovering-up-land/







Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: culzean on March 10, 2018, 10:17:30 AM
They funded renovations to Hull harbour.

http://www.humberlep.org/business/funding/

What I can't understand is why Hull then voted overwhelmingly to leave.

Perhaps because a renovated harbour is not much use to a decimated fishing fleet. Which happened, I think, as a result of European policies.

But nevertheless I voted to remain, as in the whole I believe we are better in than out.

Shortly after the Leave vote, Lincolnshire farmers were interviewed wondering where they would get their cheap labour from to pick their crops, and where would they sell the crops. And yet Lincolnshire voted heavily to Leave.

You see turkeys do sometimes vote for Christmas.


Dutch trawlers have been fishing in the Thames using pulse fishing,  officially illegal in EU but the good news is that about 100 trawlers have been allowed to do it as 'research' (just like Japanese and other countries catch an awful lot of whales 'for research'.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/899183/Trawler-fishing-uk-pulse-fishing-George-Eustice-investigation-Cefas

We have had seasonal farm workers from abroad in UK for centuries,  it is not something that started with EEC / EC / EU membership.  It worked on a flexible visa system and it worked very well.   Absolutely no reason post-Brexit that we could not still do it 'the old way' LOL - if people need work and there is somewhere that has jobs,  they will go there (and there are not too many job opportunities in large areas of EU).

http://theconversation.com/who-picked-british-fruit-and-veg-before-migrant-workers-63279
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: Basil on March 10, 2018, 02:43:54 PM
Copied from another site:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/14/honda-uk-warns-mps-of-consequences-of-leaving-eu-customs-union
The devastating impact of a hard Brexit on the UK car industry was laid bare on Tuesday to MPs, who were told every 15 minutes of customs delays would cost some manufacturers up to £850,000 a year.

Presenting the industry’s most detailed evidence yet to the business select committee, Honda UK said it relied on 350 trucks a day arriving from Europe to keep its giant Swindon factory operating, with just an hour’s worth of parts being held on the production line.

The Japanese-owned company said it would take 18 months to set up new procedures and warehouses if Britain left the customs union but that, with 2m daily component movements, even minor delays at Dover and the Channel tunnel would force hundreds of its trucks to wait for the equivalent of 90 hours a day.

“Outside of the customs union, there is no such thing as a frictionless border,” said Honda’s government affairs manager, Patrick Keating.

“I wouldn’t say that the just-in-time manufacturing model wouldn’t work, but it would certainly be very challenging.”

Until now, many large multinationals have chosen to present such commercially-sensitive data to the government in private, but with MPs still struggling to force disclosure of 58 sectoral analysis reports produced by Whitehall officials, there is growing demand for the impact of leaving without a deal to be spelled out.

Witnesses said new tariffs would add an estimated £1,500 to the price of an imported car, and Rachel Reeves, the Labour MP and former Bank of England economist who led Tuesday’s hearing, encouraged the executives to outline how exporters might also face a possible £300 cost due to tariffs on their imported components.

A hard Brexit deal or no deal will see our car industry collapse. Do the headbangers care however? Probably not.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: sparky Paul on March 10, 2018, 04:02:23 PM
We have had seasonal farm workers from abroad in UK for centuries,  it is not something that started with EEC / EC / EU membership.  It worked on a flexible visa system and it worked very well.   Absolutely no reason post-Brexit that we could not still do it 'the old way'

That's true, but there is anecdotal evidence that farmers are beginning to find it increasingly difficult to attract seasonal workers from abroad. Whether that's because of the value of the pound, better situations back home, or current attitudes towards foreigners in the UK, I'm not sure. Probably all of them.

Where there will be a problem is in the non-seasonal work centred around agricultural areas, there are large numbers of immigrants in permanent jobs in food processing factories and warehouses. Food processers are often reluctant to employ native workers because they know it will cause them continuous difficulties with staff turnover, due to the low pay and often hard work involved. There are also methods they can use to pay wages via agents overseas which are below the legal minimum permissible in the UK.

Although many like to think that the British worker is bone idle, the truth is that in this fluid labour market, people are always on the lookout for a job with better pay, better prospects and yes, as is perfectly natural, physically easier work. Whilst a British worker may stick it for a while before finding a better job, immigrants are often content to continue working hard for pay which, whilst poor to us, is better than they can earn at home.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: JimSh on March 10, 2018, 04:54:26 PM
We have had seasonal farm workers from abroad in UK for centuries,  it is not something that started with EEC / EC / EU membership.  It worked on a flexible visa system and it worked very well.   Absolutely no reason post-Brexit that we could not still do it 'the old way'

That's true, but there is anecdotal evidence that farmers are beginning to find it increasingly difficult to attract seasonal workers from abroad. Whether that's because of the value of the pound, better situations back home, or current attitudes towards foreigners in the UK, I'm not sure. Probably all of them.

Where there will be a problem is in the non-seasonal work centred around agricultural areas, there are large numbers of immigrants in permanent jobs in food processing factories and warehouses. Food processers are often reluctant to employ native workers because they know it will cause them continuous difficulties with staff turnover, due to the low pay and often hard work involved. There are also methods they can use to pay wages via agents overseas which are below the legal minimum permissible in the UK.

Although many like to think that the British worker is bone idle, the truth is that in this fluid labour market, people are always on the lookout for a job with better pay, better prospects and yes, as is perfectly natural, physically easier work. Whilst a British worker may stick it for a while before finding a better job, immigrants are often content to continue working hard for pay which, whilst poor to us, is better than they can earn at home.

There was a great programme on the TV last year about the migrant berry pickers in the east of Scotland. It's too late to catch up on it now and I couldn't find a link to any videos but the comments on this site relating to the programme are worth a read. I don't know how much was staged for the programme but there seemed to be a great community spirit and an integration with the local communities. Many of the migrants had taken on responsible roles and many had settled in the NE of Scotland and family members came over year after year.
As Paul says many of the jobs are no longer short term. Whereas the berry picking used to be a short term summer job with the advent of poly tunnels there was work for nine months in the year.

https://www.gransnet.com/forums/tv_radio_film_arts/a1241510-Who-will-pick-the-berries

Think I've got the hang of the quote thing now.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: guest4871 on March 10, 2018, 05:13:27 PM
Copied from another site:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/14/honda-uk-warns-mps-of-consequences-of-leaving-eu-customs-union
The devastating impact of a hard Brexit on the UK car industry was laid bare on Tuesday to MPs, who were told every 15 minutes of customs delays would cost some manufacturers up to £850,000 a year.

Presenting the industry’s most detailed evidence yet to the business select committee, Honda UK said it relied on 350 trucks a day arriving from Europe to keep its giant Swindon factory operating, with just an hour’s worth of parts being held on the production line.

The Japanese-owned company said it would take 18 months to set up new procedures and warehouses if Britain left the customs union but that, with 2m daily component movements, even minor delays at Dover and the Channel tunnel would force hundreds of its trucks to wait for the equivalent of 90 hours a day.

“Outside of the customs union, there is no such thing as a frictionless border,” said Honda’s government affairs manager, Patrick Keating.

“I wouldn’t say that the just-in-time manufacturing model wouldn’t work, but it would certainly be very challenging.”

Until now, many large multinationals have chosen to present such commercially-sensitive data to the government in private, but with MPs still struggling to force disclosure of 58 sectoral analysis reports produced by Whitehall officials, there is growing demand for the impact of leaving without a deal to be spelled out.

Witnesses said new tariffs would add an estimated £1,500 to the price of an imported car, and Rachel Reeves, the Labour MP and former Bank of England economist who led Tuesday’s hearing, encouraged the executives to outline how exporters might also face a possible £300 cost due to tariffs on their imported components.

A hard Brexit deal or no deal will see our car industry collapse. Do the headbangers care however? Probably not.

Cobblers

Before we all get carried away with ourselves, let me suggest that the UK car manufacturers perhaps protest too hard and perhaps for political reasons. Nissan, particularly, is 40% owned by Renault which is 20% owned by the French Government and incidentally 3% by Daimler AG.

In the new world order, it will be very simple for the UK government to do one of two things or both for all car manufacturers.

Most simple would be to make the existing operations Customs Bonded Factories (as e.g. tobacco factories). Imported components would be imported under Customs Bond.They do not pay any tax or duty on import into UK until they leave the Bonded Factory. Exported completed cars or components would bear no UK duty or tax (but will pay local import taxes into the EU and existing other non EU countries just as now). Cars sold into the UK market will bear UK local tax.

Also let us not forget the £ is weaker now and that has all but eliminated any potential tariff differences with EU anyway.

All in all it may actually be better in the future to manufacture in UK for EU markets.

Alternatively but similar, to make them tax free Economic Development Zones which what I believe Sunderland originally was. Canary Wharf certainly was - with the intention of establishing manufacturing on the Isle of Dogs but property developers spotted the opportunity and we now have what we now have.

The car manufactures will already be aware of these options and use them around the world.

I do suspect they protest too much.

I was astounded to come across:

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2017/596828/IPOL_STU(2017)596828_EN.pdf

It is an extremely well formulated European Parliament study, dated November 2017, on what they call Smart Border 2 (a frictionless Irish border) which is well worth a scan.

It sets out very clearly and maturely how the border might operate. It is very well thought through.

If you listen to the politicians and the media there seems no solution. But the study seems to be saying something very sensible and practical here.

European Parliament's Brexit chief Guy Verhofstadt laughed the idea of a technical solution out of court. Irish Prime Minister Leo Varadkar poured cold water on a suggestion by Theresa May that the customs arrangements on the US-Canada border could provide a model for the Irish border after Brexit. "I visited it back in August, and I saw a hard border with physical infrastructure with customs posts, people in uniforms with arms and dogs and that is definitely not a solution that is one that we can possibly entertain".

"This study, commissioned by the European Parliament's Policy Department for Citizens' Rights and Constitutional Affairs at the request of the AFCO Committee, provides background on cross border movement and trade between Northern Ireland and Ireland and identifies international standards and best practices and technologies that can be used to avoid a ‘hard’ border as well as case studies that provide insights into creating a smooth border experience. The technical solution provided is based on innovative approaches with a focus on cooperation, best practices and technology that is independent of any political agreements on the UK’s exit from the EU and offers a template for future UK-EU border relationships."


When I was with TNT (before the Single Market) we operated an overnight network service hubbing out of Cologne collecting components across Europe for the car manufacturers - mostly GM and Ford - with pick up as late as 8.00pm for delivery for  their 6.00am  production runs across Europe. 

With the Single Market we lost our USP in Customs pre clearance.

Transporting exhaust pipes on an aircraft are a curse as they are very volumetric! The JIT deliveries went on our road network.

Sometimes if a production line had a problem we would put on a point to point delivery the same day, usually in 4 hours. Occasionally we would use a helicopter for small critical time sensitive  parts eg wiper blades, odd bolts etc. where a line ran short.

All before the Single Market.

It was because of our pre clearance expertise that Honda decided to hold their European parts in only one location as we could deliver their parts across Europe to their dealers by 6.00am all Customs cleared.

Perhaps Patrick Keating should do some homework!

Don't believe everything in the press!
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: culzean on March 10, 2018, 05:19:38 PM
Copied from another site:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/14/honda-uk-warns-mps-of-consequences-of-leaving-eu-customs-union
The devastating impact of a hard Brexit on the UK car industry was laid bare on Tuesday to MPs, who were told every 15 minutes of customs delays would cost some manufacturers up to £850,000 a year.

Presenting the industry’s most detailed evidence yet to the business select committee, Honda UK said it relied on 350 trucks a day arriving from Europe to keep its giant Swindon factory operating, with just an hour’s worth of parts being held on the production line.

The Japanese-owned company said it would take 18 months to set up new procedures and warehouses if Britain left the customs union but that, with 2m daily component movements, even minor delays at Dover and the Channel tunnel would force hundreds of its trucks to wait for the equivalent of 90 hours a day.

“Outside of the customs union, there is no such thing as a frictionless border,” said Honda’s government affairs manager, Patrick Keating.

“I wouldn’t say that the just-in-time manufacturing model wouldn’t work, but it would certainly be very challenging.”

Until now, many large multinationals have chosen to present such commercially-sensitive data to the government in private, but with MPs still struggling to force disclosure of 58 sectoral analysis reports produced by Whitehall officials, there is growing demand for the impact of leaving without a deal to be spelled out.

Witnesses said new tariffs would add an estimated £1,500 to the price of an imported car, and Rachel Reeves, the Labour MP and former Bank of England economist who led Tuesday’s hearing, encouraged the executives to outline how exporters might also face a possible £300 cost due to tariffs on their imported components.

A hard Brexit deal or no deal will see our car industry collapse. Do the headbangers care however? Probably not.

We import almost 1 million cars per year from Germany alone, worth almost  30 Billion Euro (Germany imports about 4 Billion Euro of cars from UK) after Brexit our cars could become expensive in Germany, but German cars could also become very expensive in UK,  about 40% of UK car exports go to EU countries,  out of the 80% we export in total, so 40% of our cars are sold outside EU and 20% in UK.  UK imports 20% of German car production.

http://www.acea.be/statistics/article/motor-vehicle-trade-between-the-uk-and-main-eu-partners

The business leader in EU countries have already expressed their dissatisfaction about the way Barnier is handling talks,  business leaders and heads of different EU countries will soon get Barnier and Vorhofstadt and bang their heads together and tell to stop playing politics - businessmen are pragmatists not political ideologists.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: JimSh on March 10, 2018, 05:34:49 PM
Copied from another site:







Cobblers

Before we all get carried away with ourselves, let me suggest that the UK car manufacturers perhaps protest too hard and perhaps for political reasons. Nissan, particularly, is 40% owned by Renault which is 20% owned by the French Government and incidentally 3% by Daimler AG.

In the new world order, it will be very simple for the UK government to do one of two things or both for all car manufacturers.

Most simple would be to make the existing operations Customs Bonded Factories (as e.g. tobacco factories). Imported components would be imported under Customs Bond.They do not pay any tax or duty on import into UK until they leave the Bonded Factory. Exported completed cars or components would bear no UK duty or tax (but will pay local import taxes into the EU and existing other non EU countries just as now). Cars sold into the UK market will bear UK local tax.

Also let us not forget the £ is weaker now and that has all but eliminated any potential tariff differences with EU anyway.

All in all it may actually be better in the future to manufacture in UK for EU markets.

Alternatively but similar, to make them tax free Economic Development Zones which what I believe Sunderland originally was. Canary Wharf certainly was - with the intention of establishing manufacturing on the Isle of Dogs but property developers spotted the opportunity and we now have what we now have.

The car manufactures will already be aware of these options and use them around the world.

I do suspect they protest too much.

I was astounded to come across:

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2017/596828/IPOL_STU(2017)596828_EN.pdf

It is an extremely well formulated European Parliament study, dated November 2017, on what they call Smart Border 2 (a frictionless Irish border) which is well worth a scan.

It sets out very clearly and maturely how the border might operate. It is very well thought through.

If you listen to the politicians and the media there seems no solution. But the study seems to be saying something very sensible and practical here.

European Parliament's Brexit chief Guy Verhofstadt laughed the idea of a technical solution out of court. Irish Prime Minister Leo Varadkar poured cold water on a suggestion by Theresa May that the customs arrangements on the US-Canada border could provide a model for the Irish border after Brexit. "I visited it back in August, and I saw a hard border with physical infrastructure with customs posts, people in uniforms with arms and dogs and that is definitely not a solution that is one that we can possibly entertain".

"This study, commissioned by the European Parliament's Policy Department for Citizens' Rights and Constitutional Affairs at the request of the AFCO Committee, provides background on cross border movement and trade between Northern Ireland and Ireland and identifies international standards and best practices and technologies that can be used to avoid a ‘hard’ border as well as case studies that provide insights into creating a smooth border experience. The technical solution provided is based on innovative approaches with a focus on cooperation, best practices and technology that is independent of any political agreements on the UK’s exit from the EU and offers a template for future UK-EU border relationships."


When I was with TNT (before the Single Market) we operated an overnight network service hubbing out of Cologne collecting components across Europe for the car manufacturers - mostly GM and Ford - with pick up as late as 8.00pm for delivery for  their 6.00am  production runs across Europe. 

With the Single Market we lost our USP in Customs pre clearance.

Transporting exhaust pipes on an aircraft are a curse as they are very volumetric! The JIT deliveries went on our road network.

Sometimes if a production line had a problem we would put on a point to point delivery the same day, usually in 4 hours. Occasionally we would use a helicopter for small critical time sensitive  parts eg wiper blades, odd bolts etc. where a line ran short.

All before the Single Market.

It was because of our pre clearance expertise that Honda decided to hold their European parts in only one location as we could deliver their parts across Europe to their dealers by 6.00am all Customs cleared.

Perhaps Patrick Keating should do some homework!

Don't believe everything in the press!



Surely it would be cheaper for the car makers to manufacture in Europe and cut out all the hassle
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: Basil on March 10, 2018, 05:43:59 PM
Believe what you want, the Japanese companies are based in the UK for easy access to the European market, a hard Brexit would force them to move their factories to mainland Europe.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: JimSh on March 10, 2018, 05:54:30 PM
To Basil,
Snap.
Just beat you to it but your explanation was better than mine
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: culzean on March 10, 2018, 06:10:47 PM
Believe what you want, the Japanese companies are based in the UK for easy access to the European market, a hard Brexit would force them to move their factories to mainland Europe.

We are Germanies single largest export car market, next biggest is USA,  Trump is already putting tariffs on EU steel and aluminium (by the way EU has tariff of 75% on some Chinese steel, so can hardly cry foul).  Next will be EU cars and loads of other stuff getting tariffs so if car makers move to EU they will get hit as well.  USA has promised zero or very low tariffs for UK, and apparently EU are going to take UK and USA to court,  well good luck with that one.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: sparky Paul on March 10, 2018, 06:46:13 PM
the Japanese companies are based in the UK for easy access to the European market, a hard Brexit would force them to move their factories to mainland Europe.

In the medium to long term, when major investment decisions are considered, I believe this is inevitable.

Realistically though, mechanisms will be found to allow companies to continue to operate in the short term, but it will be far from an ideal situation for the manufacturers, as Honda UK indicated. It may also cost the UK Government a great deal of money to facilitate this. I would pose the same question as I did earlier - Does anyone think the Burnaston, Sunderland or Swindon plants would have ever been built, had the UK never joined the EU/EEC?


We import almost 1 million cars per year from Germany alone, worth almost  30 Billion Euro (Germany imports about 4 Billion Euro of cars from UK) after Brexit our cars could become expensive in Germany, but German cars could also become very expensive in UK

...and we will continue to do so. Why should the EU care that we apply tariffs to their cars? If we did carry out the threat to walk away and assume WTO tariff rules, it will only hurt the British consumer. Prices of UK built cars will also be affected by tariffs on imported parts.

We could say stuff your cars and vans, but where else will we buy our BMWs, Mercs and Audis? Cars are not really a fungible good to many buyers, I doubt tariffs will significantly affect the habits of BMW buyers, only the prices they end up paying.

UK manufacturers have far more to lose from tariffs. Loss of sales of UK built cars will only increase sales of EU built cars, and incentivise manufacturers to make future investment decisions in favour of the trading areas where their biggest markets are. As I said earlier, companies like Peugeot already have spare EU capacity they could use for cars and vans they build here in the UK.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: Jocko on March 11, 2018, 09:34:37 AM
If we did carry out the threat to walk away and assume WTO tariff rules, it will only hurt the British consumer. Prices of UK built cars will also be affected by tariffs on imported parts.r, companies like Peugeot already have spare EU capacity they could use for cars and vans they build here in the UK.
Strictly speaking, it doesn't need to. The UK government could offset the import tariffs by reducing the tax on new cars. They would still get the same money and the customer would still pay the same for a new car.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: sparky Paul on March 11, 2018, 09:58:09 AM
If we did carry out the threat to walk away and assume WTO tariff rules, it will only hurt the British consumer. Prices of UK built cars will also be affected by tariffs on imported parts, companies like Peugeot already have spare EU capacity they could use for cars and vans they build here in the UK.
Strictly speaking, it doesn't need to. The UK government could offset the import tariffs by reducing the tax on new cars. They would still get the same money and the customer would still pay the same for a new car.

They reckon that tariffs could add an average of £1500 to an imported car, and £300 to a UK built car.

 I would guess that the only new vehicle tax that could reasonably be adjusted to accommodate that is VAT, by introducing different VAT rates for cars. How would that work for disabled car buyers, or buyers of cars and vans for business use, neither of which pay the VAT?
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: guest5079 on March 11, 2018, 03:12:05 PM
The truth of the matter is that NOBODY, except a chosen few, know what is going to happen. We can all speculate but until the so called experts stop pphaffing about and tell the truth, we the general public are in the dark' This am the Chancellor stated that the economy is marginally improving with our deficit getting ever so slowly better. Only to have that nice man who I believe is shadow chancellor telling us this is nonsense. Who was it that decided the way forward was to spend our way out of trouble? The Labour bloke, obviously has a selective memory as it was his lot that was spend spend spend. Education has had money thrown at it and what to do we have? Certainly not a return on the money Labour threw at education.
Why did Peugeot /Citroen buy Vauxhall? I suspect it is to ensure a facility in the UK to protect their interests after Brexit.  I also suspect Vauxhall will quietly disappear.
I also understand the reason that some Eastern Block people as well as the Poles are not coming to the UK because their economies are improving. Lastly there was comment about Hilary Benn. When it was muted about the  coastal path for the public to enjoy in his area, when asked he refused on the grounds that he was NOT having the great unwashed tramping along the sea wall interfering with his enjoyment. He is 'B' lucky to have a property with a beach at the bottom of his garden. Just the sort that will scream bloody murder when the sea starts encroaching on his garden, expecting the great unwashed to stump up to protect HIS property.   A socialist, I thought they were for the people!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!No doubt there is enough here to cause a few comments.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: sparky Paul on March 11, 2018, 08:10:14 PM
This am the Chancellor stated that the economy is marginally improving with our deficit getting ever so slowly better. Only to have that nice man who I believe is shadow chancellor telling us this is nonsense.

What the Chancellor actually said was that "we are paying down the debt" several times, and that "the debt was now falling"

It is utter nonsense. Even Marr was forced to point out that the national debt is still increasing.

Why did Peugeot /Citroen buy Vauxhall? I suspect it is to ensure a facility in the UK to protect their interests after Brexit.

They are already building Vauxhall (and Opel) branded vehicles in Peugeot factories in France.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: JimSh on March 11, 2018, 10:23:30 PM
He was quite hesitant when asked direct questions

"AM: Simple question: is austerity over?
PH: Well, we’ve – most people take that to be a reference to the
public sector pay
cap, and we’ve removed the one per cent pay
cap on public sector pay. As you know, unions and management
right now are in discussions on a settlement for nurses and other
agenda for change staff in the NHS, which I hope will lead to a
pay settlement which
satisfies workers in the NHS but is also fair
to taxpayers, because it tackles some of the challenge that we
have in the NHS workforce and makes it more effective and
efficient.
AM: For the working families affected by these welfare changes,
for instance, £200 a year worse off on average, that feels like no
light at all at the end of the tunnel for them. Can I ask you also
about local authorities, because all across the country you know
Tory local authorities as well as Labour ones are screaming with
pain "
 
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: JimSh on March 11, 2018, 10:38:41 PM
And when asked if Brexit would be worth it, he hummed and hawed before saying that the British people had decided.

 AM:Is it worth it?
PH: Yes. Financial services is a very important part of our
economy, but it’s also –
AM: Not the financial services negotiation. Is Brexit worth it?
PH: Oh the whole thing?
AM: Yes, the whole thing?
PH: Well, yes -the British people have decided. The British people
decided that we are leaving the European Union and that’s what
we’re doing.   




Does Mr Hammond sometimes betray a vestige of conscience?

Full transcript here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/11031801.pdf


Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: Jocko on March 12, 2018, 06:51:33 AM
I watch "Daily Politics" most weekdays, and I am yet to see a politician who can answer a question. If you asked a politician if it gets dark at night the best answer you would get would be something along the lines of, "Well as you know the policy of our party is to support reduced light between certain hours........................!" There is not one of them prepared to state their opinion on anything.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: JimSh on March 12, 2018, 08:12:34 AM
That's very true.
Perhaps it doesn't show up so well in the written word but it was the hesitancy before he came away away with the party lines. The evasion of evasion.
Sometimes I feel that Hammond isn't as polished in the art of evasion as most of the others.
Anyway I can't evade going to the dentist this morning.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: culzean on March 12, 2018, 08:24:33 AM
I watch "Daily Politics" most weekdays, and I am yet to see a politician who can answer a question. If you asked a politician if it gets dark at night the best answer you would get would be something along the lines of, "Well as you know the policy of our party is to support reduced light between certain hours........................!" There is not one of them prepared to state their opinion on anything.

Daily Politics definitely gone downhill since Jo Coburn took over, Andrew Neil was just so much better at pointing out to politicians that they weren't answering the question and many, many times made them look more than a bit silly.

Many politicians of all colours have mastered the art of obfuscation to 1. deny their opponent  time to reply,  2, eat up the time available on the show and limit the questions they can be asked. 

There are so many more people that can be upset these days that I am not surprised that politicians are loathe to state their feelings - look what happened to Tim Farron who got tied into knots over his pro-Christian fundamentalist views.   

Funny thing is that Farron stood on a anti-Brexit ticket in 2017 election and their party was pretty much wiped out,  the vast majority of voters voted for parties who supported Brexit.  Another point is that it referendum had been decided on normal parliamentary constituency votes the result would have been over 400 seats out of 654 voted leave.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: culzean on March 12, 2018, 08:32:07 AM
https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2018/03/11/taoiseach-announces-extension-of-consulate-in-texas-to-boost-lin/

Republic of Ireland preparing the ground for when they leave EU -  recent polls in Republic show growing support for ROIexit (but not discussed in their media) - maybe they will hold a referendum soon,  as their options for doing deals with USA are severely limited by their membership of EUSSR.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: culzean on March 12, 2018, 08:56:50 AM
Anyone remember the much hyped 'millennium bug' that was going to bring countries to their knees and cause widespread mayhem,  with planes crashing out of the skies ?  Well not much really happened - any parallels with Brexit I wonder.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-30576670

https://www.economist.com/node/327829
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: Jocko on March 12, 2018, 09:51:22 AM
Daily Politics definitely gone downhill since Jo Coburn took over, Andrew Neil was just so much better at pointing out to politicians that they weren't answering the question and many, many times made them look more than a bit silly.
Jo is not quite so forceful as Andrew, but she still makes them squirm.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: RichardA on March 12, 2018, 10:57:20 AM



Why did Peugeot /Citroen buy Vauxhall? I suspect it is to ensure a facility in the UK to protect their interests after Brexit.

They are already building Vauxhall (and Opel) branded vehicles in Peugeot factories in France.

PSA group signed a deal with GM six years ago to co develop new crossovers like the 3008/Grandland long before brexit. GM even had a small stake in PSA. Vauxhall/Opel are strong in markets where PSA are not and visa versa.

Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: culzean on March 12, 2018, 12:45:50 PM
You must have seen signs saying "erected with EU funding"

What I can't understand is why Hull then voted overwhelmingly to leave.


Maybe the signs should read  'erected with a fraction of the money that we have paid into the EU, the fraction that they have seen fit to spend in the UK'  those signs are nothing more than EU propaganda for the gullible.  Most of the money the EU takes in is spent in enlarging the Federal Empire as bribes for joining - a cynical land grab policy.   

The EU is like a Sundew insect trap,  it offers nectar to unsuspecting insects and once they take it they are trapped and get slowly dissolved by the plants juices,  their struggles are futile as they are absorbed into the body of the plant to fuel its growth.

The EU has fires springing up all over,  but they have locked all the fire exits,  we may be able to get out before it is consumed though.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: sparky Paul on March 12, 2018, 12:53:57 PM
Vauxhall/Opel are strong in markets where PSA are not and visa versa.

I think that hits the nail on the head, Vauxhall/Opel are a pretty good fit for PSA.

There is also the Opel/Renault large van JV which has existed for many years too, and with the likelihood that Renault/Nissan could be dumped out, PSA may well centre their large van production in Luton.

I get the distinct feeling that we will end up in a place not too far away from the EU single market. Some people are not going to be happy.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: richardfrost on March 12, 2018, 02:15:27 PM
Anyone remember the much hyped 'millennium bug' that was going to bring countries to their knees and cause widespread mayhem,  with planes crashing out of the skies ?  Well not much really happened - any parallels with Brexit I wonder.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-30576670

https://www.economist.com/node/327829

As one of those who worked in the IT industry back then and was a part of this effort, I would say that one of the key parallels with Brexit will be that people will use the fear, uncertainty and doubt around Brexit to achieve their own plans. Plans which hacve nothing to do with Brexit but are enabled by all the money and the confusion.

You would not believe how many personal or vanity projects got done under the umbrella of being part of a so called Year 2000 programme.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: sparky Paul on March 12, 2018, 03:39:54 PM
As one of those who worked in the IT industry back then and was a part of this effort, I would say that one of the key parallels with Brexit will be that people will use the fear, uncertainty and doubt around Brexit to achieve their own plans. Plans which hacve nothing to do with Brexit but are enabled by all the money and the confusion.

I agree, I saw that working at factory level for a large multinational. Every system and process had to be assessed, the job was so complex that anything could be buried in the midst of it all.

You would not believe how many personal or vanity projects got done under the umbrella of being part of a so called Year 2000 programme.

...and many pockets lined, and subsequent back-slapping when nothing bad actually happened.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: JimSh on March 12, 2018, 04:58:40 PM
You must have seen signs saying "erected with EU funding"

What I can't understand is why Hull then voted overwhelmingly to leave.


Maybe the signs should read  'erected with a fraction of the money that we have paid into the EU, the fraction that they have seen fit to spend in the UK'  those signs are nothing more than EU propaganda for the gullible.  Most of the money the EU takes in is spent in enlarging the Federal Empire as bribes for joining - a cynical land grab policy.   

The EU is like a Sundew insect trap,  it offers nectar to unsuspecting insects and once they take it they are trapped and get slowly dissolved by the plants juices,  their struggles are futile as they are absorbed into the body of the plant to fuel its growth.

The EU has fires springing up all over,  but they have locked all the fire exits,  we may be able to get out before it is consumed though.

That seems a bit harsh is it not?

I think the purpose of the EU is to promote co-operation between neighbouring nations allowing them to live in peace and harmony.
I could list many advantages of remaining in the EU but could not do it nearly as well as by letting you read the goals of the EU.

https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/eu-in-brief_en

Please feel free to tell me of any of these to which you object.
 (the sections referring to the Euro obviously do not apply)






Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: culzean on March 13, 2018, 09:30:01 AM
You must have seen signs saying "erected with EU funding"

What I can't understand is why Hull then voted overwhelmingly to leave.


Maybe the signs should read  'erected with a fraction of the money that we have paid into the EU, the fraction that they have seen fit to spend in the UK'  those signs are nothing more than EU propaganda for the gullible.  Most of the money the EU takes in is spent in enlarging the Federal Empire as bribes for joining - a cynical land grab policy.   

The EU is like a Sundew insect trap,  it offers nectar to unsuspecting insects and once they take it they are trapped and get slowly dissolved by the plants juices,  their struggles are futile as they are absorbed into the body of the plant to fuel its growth.

The EU has fires springing up all over,  but they have locked all the fire exits,  we may be able to get out before it is consumed though.

That seems a bit harsh is it not?

I think the purpose of the EU is to promote co-operation between neighbouring nations allowing them to live in peace and harmony.
I could list many advantages of remaining in the EU but could not do it nearly as well as by letting you read the goals of the EU.

https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/eu-in-brief_en

Please feel free to tell me of any of these to which you object.
 (the sections referring to the Euro obviously do not apply)

The most obvious thing that made people live in peace and harmony since 1945 is the atom bomb and NATO,  nothing at all to do with the EU.   But having said that,  Germany has used the EU to achieve what it did not in two world wars, control of Europe and a ready (captive) market for its products.   Reading the glossy brochure of the EU tells people nothing about its real aims,  which is a total political and fiscal union - a Federal Superstate.   I could sort of understand the common market (which was not a bad idea and is what we originally joined) - but our beloved leaders did not deem it necessary to show us the small print,  which was ever tighter political and economic unity and centralised control.  If USA makes good its promise on 'normalising' tariffs between them and the EU,  its gonna be fun.  The EU has long put up barriers to countries wanting to export into it,  they contribute little to NATO and are a customs cartel ( Jeremy Corbyn said their tariffs are a barrier to poorer and developing countries, and even USA by the look of it).

Anyway,  talking of keeping the peace, have a look at Bosnia - the EU stood by while the fire raged and in the end it fell to USA and UK to sort it out - the EU could not even sort out a small scuffle on its border,   Russia must look at 'paper tiger'  Europe with contempt,  and who can blame them.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/german-military-short-tanks-combat-aircraft-nato-mission/
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: Jocko on March 14, 2018, 06:11:55 AM
It appears that German industry is starting to sweat regards a customs union after Brexit.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43389878 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43389878)
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: culzean on March 14, 2018, 08:38:26 AM
It appears that German industry is starting to sweat regards a customs union after Brexit.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43389878 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43389878)

Looks like they need our export market as well as our military - It will be business leaders that find a good trade deal not those block-headed indoctrinated federalist negotiators.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: richardfrost on March 14, 2018, 09:49:57 AM
I am in favour of remaining in the EU and working to amend it from within, rather than leaving it and then having to work with it from without.

Having said that I am a remainer and remain so, if this Martin Selmayr cronyist appointment had been made before the referendum, the vote would have been much stronger in favour of Leave. This is shocking!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43366724
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: culzean on March 14, 2018, 10:02:30 AM
I am in favour of remaining in the EU and working to amend it from within, rather than leaving it and then having to work with it from without.

Having said that I am a remainer and remain so, if this Martin Selmayr cronyist appointment had been made before the referendum, the vote would have been much stronger in favour of Leave. This is shocking!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43366724

But that is EU all over, the most powerful people are not elected..... The EU parliament is a sham,  the real power lies with the assembly and its blatant cronyism.

Trying to amend the EU from inside is like trying to herd cats,  we have not been able to do much in over 40 years so I guess 17.4 million thought it was a waste of time and effort.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: JimSh on March 14, 2018, 11:15:01 AM
You must have seen signs saying "erected with EU funding"

What I can't understand is why Hull then voted overwhelmingly to leave.


Maybe the signs should read  'erected with a fraction of the money that we have paid into the EU, the fraction that they have seen fit to spend in the UK'  those signs are nothing more than EU propaganda for the gullible.  Most of the money the EU takes in is spent in enlarging the Federal Empire as bribes for joining - a cynical land grab policy.   

The EU is like a Sundew insect trap,  it offers nectar to unsuspecting insects and once they take it they are trapped and get slowly dissolved by the plants juices,  their struggles are futile as they are absorbed into the body of the plant to fuel its growth.

The EU has fires springing up all over,  but they have locked all the fire exits,  we may be able to get out before it is consumed though.

That seems a bit harsh is it not?

I think the purpose of the EU is to promote co-operation between neighbouring nations allowing them to live in peace and harmony.
I could list many advantages of remaining in the EU but could not do it nearly as well as by letting you read the goals of the EU.

https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/eu-in-brief_en

Please feel free to tell me of any of these to which you object.
 (the sections referring to the Euro obviously do not apply)

The most obvious thing that made people live in peace and harmony since 1945 is the atom bomb and NATO,  nothing at all to do with the EU.   But having said that,  Germany has used the EU to achieve what it did not in two world wars, control of Europe and a ready (captive) market for its products.   Reading the glossy brochure of the EU tells people nothing about its real aims,  which is a total political and fiscal union - a Federal Superstate.   I could sort of understand the common market (which was not a bad idea and is what we originally joined) - but our beloved leaders did not deem it necessary to show us the small print,  which was ever tighter political and economic unity and centralised control.  If USA makes good its promise on 'normalising' tariffs between them and the EU,  its gonna be fun.  The EU has long put up barriers to countries wanting to export into it,  they contribute little to NATO and are a customs cartel ( Jeremy Corbyn said their tariffs are a barrier to poorer and developing countries, and even USA by the look of it).

Anyway,  talking of keeping the peace, have a look at Bosnia - the EU stood by while the fire raged and in the end it fell to USA and UK to sort it out - the EU could not even sort out a small scuffle on its border,   Russia must look at 'paper tiger'  Europe with contempt,  and who can blame them.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/german-military-short-tanks-combat-aircraft-nato-mission/


Hi,
Thanks for getting back to me.
Since you haven't shown any objections to any of the goals in my link I assume either you can find no fault with them or that you haven't bothered to read them.
Can I point out a few places where I disagree with your reply ?

1. Peace has been maintained between the countries in the EU by having a common purpose and by negotiation. Threatening to drop an atom bomb on another European country would be self destructive.

2. Germany has recovered better from the war than some other European countries by dint of hard work and sensible investment in its future. Nobody is forcing anybody to buy German cars or kitchen goods. Germany is not the EU.

3 Where better to read about the EU Goals than on the official website? The Telegraph, Express or Mail?
 
4. I know very little about the Bosnian conflict but to call it a "small scuffle" when it cost about 200000 lives is disingenuous. Many of them killed, I would imagine, by US or UK weapons.
 Perhaps, had the former Yugoslavia been in the EU at the time, things might have been  different.
Military intervention by UK and US does not have a great track record.

5 Russia will have even more contempt for the "paper tiger Europe" when it starts to tear itself to bits.






Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: JimSh on March 14, 2018, 11:29:02 AM
I am in favour of remaining in the EU and working to amend it from within, rather than leaving it and then having to work with it from without.

Having said that I am a remainer and remain so, if this Martin Selmayr cronyist appointment had been made before the referendum, the vote would have been much stronger in favour of Leave. This is shocking!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43366724


But that is EU all over, the most powerful people are not elected..... The EU parliament is a sham,  the real power lies with the assembly and its blatant cronyism.

Trying to amend the EU from inside is like trying to herd cats,  we have not been able to do much in over 40 years so I guess 17.4 million thought it was a waste of time and effort.

Perhaps, if we had sent some people who took the job seriously and worked to actually reform the EU rather than just destroy it, there might have been a better outcome.

Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: Jocko on March 14, 2018, 01:49:16 PM
Germany has recovered better from the war than some other European countries by dint of hard work and sensible investment in its future. Nobody is forcing anybody to buy German cars or kitchen goods. Germany is not the EU.
Germany's recovery, like Japan's, was due to the money spent in the country by the US, UK (at the detriment of our spending on industry), and other countries. Add to that the fact they were unable to spend huge sums on militarisation and that goes a huge way to explain their success. And as you say "by dint of hard work and sensible investment in its future", but they didn't have a lot of options.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: richardfrost on March 14, 2018, 02:05:57 PM
Germany has recovered better from the war than some other European countries by dint of hard work and sensible investment in its future. Nobody is forcing anybody to buy German cars or kitchen goods. Germany is not the EU.
Germany's recovery, like Japan's, was due to the money spent in the country by the US, UK (at the detriment of our spending on industry), and other countries. Add to that the fact they were unable to spend huge sums on militarisation and that goes a huge way to explain their success. And as you say "by dint of hard work and sensible investment in its future", but they didn't have a lot of options.

The British reestablished the German car industry, and specifically, Volkswagen, right after the end of the war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Hirst
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2240486/How-British-soldiers-helped-save-VW-car-rescuing-blueprints-bomb-hit-German-factory-1945.html
https://www.volkswagenag.com/presence/konzern/documents/history/englisch/Heft4_EN.pdf

The British endured rationing until 1954, whereas Germany ended rationing in 1950. This was as a direct result of our financial position post war following the end of the Lend Lease arrangement with the USA.

https://www.quora.com/Why-did-rationing-in-the-UK-only-end-in-1954-9-years-after-WW2

I suggest the UK was very much in favour of doing everything possible to support Europe from the 1930s until the Summer of 2016.

What has changed?

We have heavily influenced the EU from within. To say we haven't is to ignore the significant achievements of Thatcher, amongst others, in holding back the rampant drive for a unified European state. Who knows where it would be now if we had not been a member, with our veto and influence, for the last 40 years or so.

Taking our bat home has been a major folly, driven by politicians, ego and xenophobic rhetoric. And now we will be on the edge of Europe unable to influence whatever madcap scheme they come up with next.



Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: JimSh on March 14, 2018, 02:31:13 PM


Taking our bat home has been a major folly, driven by politicians, ego and xenophobic rhetoric.




I'm effectively deleting what I posted in reply. Must have been having a senior moment.
I would agree with richardfrost.
Thanks for the links Richard
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: JimSh on March 14, 2018, 03:50:00 PM
I've just re-read your post and have found another point on which we differ

I suggest the UK was very much in favour of doing everything possible to support Europe from the 1930s until the Summer of 2016.

What has changed?

We have heavily influenced the EU from within. To say we haven't is to ignore the significant achievements of Thatcher, amongst others, in holding back the rampant drive for a unified European state. Who knows where it would be now if we had not been a member, with our veto and influence, for the last 40 years or so.






I would suggest that the UK's positive influence on Europe  ended earlier than that with the election of Nigel Farage and friends whose only political objective was to cause maximum disruption with minimal effort and maximum personal gain.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ukip-meps-attend-the-fewest-european-parliament-votes-of-any-party-in-the-eus-28-countries-10316962.html

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ukip-branded-laziest-political-party-1936913

Note also the comments in the independent article
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: sparky Paul on March 14, 2018, 06:55:13 PM
We have heavily influenced the EU from within. To say we haven't is to ignore the significant achievements of Thatcher, amongst others, in holding back the rampant drive for a unified European state. Who knows where it would be now if we had not been a member, with our veto and influence, for the last 40 years or so.

Taking our bat home has been a major folly, driven by politicians, ego and xenophobic rhetoric. And now we will be on the edge of Europe unable to influence whatever madcap scheme they come up with next.

+1

I don't think that people appreciate the positive influence that the UK has had.

In addition, the EU will no longer have any reason whatsoever to favour the UK in any decision, and that will include any future trade agreement. Who was it who said, "Why would the EU agree to frictionless trade when it can have all of our car factories instead?".

I think the leave voters would put this sort of thing firmly in the 'scaremongering' box, but no matter what other marvellous opportunities we think may become available to us, geography dictates that the EU will never cease to play a significant role in the success or otherwise of the UK economy.

I would suggest that the UK's positive influence on Europe  ended earlier than that with the election of Nigel Farage and friends whose only political objective was to cause maximum disruption with minimal effort and maximum personal gain.

You couldn't blame the rest of the EU for thinking that we had spent the last 10 years trying to rub them up the wrong way.
Title: Re: Brexit and the scare mongers
Post by: RichardA on March 15, 2018, 08:37:00 PM
I think it's time we drew this discussion to a close. It's already no.8 in our top ten most replied topics!

https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?action=stats

I hope I've picked a good time to lock this topic without prejudiced to either side.