Clubjazz - Honda Jazz & HR-V Forums
Other Hondas & General Topics => Honda & Other Honda Models => Topic started by: RichardA on March 12, 2015, 09:01:07 PM
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It all kicks off this weekend in Australia! 8)
Honda back in F1 as an engine supplier to McLaren, with Jenson Button and Fernando Alonso in the driving seat.
http://www.mclaren.com/formula1/team/ (http://www.mclaren.com/formula1/team/)
I'll keep you posted on the teams and drivers' progress here and on Twitter.
2015 Race Calendar
Mar 15 Australian Grand Prix
Mar 29 Malaysia Grand Prix
Apr 12 Chinese Grand Prix
Apr 19 Bahrain Grand Prix
May 10 Spanish Grand Prix
May 24 Monaco Grand Prix
Jun 7 Canadian Grand Prix
Jun 21 Austrian Grand Prix
Jul 5 British Grand Prix
Jul 26 Hungarian Grand Prix
Aug 23 Belgian Grand Prix
Sep 6 Italian Grand Prix
Sep 20 Singapore Grand Prix
Sep 27 Japanese Grand Prix
Oct 11 Russian Grand Prix
Oct 25 United States Grand Prix
Nov 1 Mexican Grand Prix
Nov 15 Brazilian Grand Prix
Nov 29 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix
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Should be interesting 8)
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McLaren/Honda's pre-season testing has been a disaster completing very few laps and failing to complete a simulated race distance.
It is believed that the power plant, it's not just a petrol engine these days but a complex hybrid, was running on reduced power yet the majority of the problems were power plant related.
Practice for the first GP of the season today, the Oz GP, was another problem day.
So it's not looking good for McLaren/Honda.
Vic.
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Race report:
http://www.mclaren.com/formula1/2015/australian-grand-prix/australian-grand-prix-race-report-2015/ (http://www.mclaren.com/formula1/2015/australian-grand-prix/australian-grand-prix-race-report-2015/)
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So basically a waste of money for 2015.. and probably not competitive in 2016 either..
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Malaysian GP this weekend, Button and Alonso in 17th and 18th positions on the grid after qualifying.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/2015/malaysian-grand-prix/results/qualifying (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/2015/malaysian-grand-prix/results/qualifying)
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In case you missed it, Button and Alonso failed to finish at Malaysia the other week.
Chinese GP tomorrow with Button in 17th and Alonso in 18th on the grid.
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How do they keep smiling although with their salaries I guess I could laugh all the way to the bank !
Alonso must be wondering if he made the right move and since he is known to speak his mind I reckon he'll be the first to crack.
Vic.
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They finished 12 and 13 in China, above Lotus and Red Bull cars so making progress, I think each team only allowed 4 engines per driver for whole season so Honda with new engine have to make haste slowly because if they wreck too many engines it is a major problem :-X
Chinese circuit is fast with long straights so this was test for engine rather than chassis.
all Honda lovers should keep the faith in Honda engineering - they are doing the right thing by making haste slowly :D
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That button overtake with Maldonado
Makes you wonder what's actually going on when the car can just pull a move like that
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Bahrain GP today with Button in 20th (last) position and Alonso in 14th on the grid:
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/motor-racing/bahrain-grand-prix-2015-lewis-hamilton-powers-to-pole-as-nico-rosbergs-ferrari-fears-materialise-with-sebastian-vettel-in-second-10186958.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/motor-racing/bahrain-grand-prix-2015-lewis-hamilton-powers-to-pole-as-nico-rosbergs-ferrari-fears-materialise-with-sebastian-vettel-in-second-10186958.html)
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Bahrain - Alonso came in 11th (just outside points) and Button did not start race.
new type R doing well in BTCC - Matt Neal top of drivers standings and Shedden 3rd
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Button's car apparently had a problem with its electrical recovery system, part of its hybrid system, that they couldn't fix before the race started.
The other engine manufacturers, Ferrari, Mercedes and Renault have had twice as long to develop their power plants plus they have had a whole season's racing and except for Mercedes they still haven't got it quite right so we should give Honda a chance.
Vic.
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They said on the telly that Button had an electrical fire in free practice and that had damaged the loom and some components. They replaced as much as they could but systems kept failing.
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http://www.mclaren.com/formula1/2015/spanish-grand-prix/spanish-grand-prix-race-report-2015/ (http://www.mclaren.com/formula1/2015/spanish-grand-prix/spanish-grand-prix-race-report-2015/)
Spanish GP, Button finishes in 16th and Alonso DNF due to rear brake issue.
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Button not a happy bunny. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/32683716 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/32683716)
From another BBC clip Alonso had a peel-off visor block a rear brake duct hence his incident in the pit lane .
Vic.
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Mclaren scored some points at last following Button's finish in 8th.
Alonso out after his car overheated.
There's a Honda dealer a mile or so up the road from Mclaren's HQ in Woking, maybe they should take the F1 cars there. ;D
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An improvement but still a long way to go.
They were probably in for two point scoring finishes but for Alonso's demise.
What a cock-up by Mercedes !!
Vic
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Both Alonso and Button failed to finish in Canada at the weekend due to unrelated exhaust problems.
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Honda are in many ways an engine manufacturer. They make engines for boats, lawn mowers etc They had great success with McLaren some years ago. Last time in F1 they were not great-they had their own team and ended up pulling out without success. Being unsuccessful is simply negative publicity for Honda, especially if Alonso is involved. I don't think Honda will want to pull out again or spend money to look bad. I think they will spend the money and allocate the engineers to come up with a good engine. How long it will take, I don't know.
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Honda make engines for just about everything that moves from lawn mowers to jet aircraft. They do well in motorbike racing and British touring car races, they came late into the new F1 with new hybrid engines and even companies like Ferrari and Renault who were in it from the start are still having problems. They have the expertise and will come good, but it is an expensive game loaded down with rules and regulations and not for the faint-hearted.
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Both drivers failed to finish, Button out due to intake system failure and Alonso after an accident on lap 1 with Kimi Raikkonen (both OK thankfully).
Original topic edited with race calendar added.
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The 2015 season is looking like a testing session for McLaren-Honda with most of the problems being power plant orientated, it's not just an internal combustion engine any more. They are about two years behind the other power plant manufacturers and with the exception of Mercedes they all haven't got it right yet.
According to the drivers the McLaren designed car is otherwise quite good.
Vic.
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Alonso finished the British GP in 10th placing him in the points zone after starting at 17th on the grid.
Button out following accident on lap one.
http://www.mclaren.com/formula1/2015/british-grand-prix/2015-british-grand-prix-race-report/ (http://www.mclaren.com/formula1/2015/british-grand-prix/2015-british-grand-prix-race-report/)
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F1 is soooohhh boring - having just watched Isle Of Man TT races I have again decided (I come to this conclusion every year) that F1 drivers are a bunch of overpaid, over-hyped cissy boys compared to the TT motorbike racers who do 200mph on public roads with white lines and lamposts, brick walls etc and lap a twisting (200 bends to remember) mountainous course at an average of almost 133mph (and some bends are only 30mph). Compared to F1 driver the bikers get paid peanuts, are relatively unknown outside biking circles and there is nothing but a couple of small patches of rubber, their fantastic skill and courage and a few mm of leather and a crash helmet between them and a messy death - and they actually overtake each other. Their racing isn't all down to team tactics either - just raw courage and skill (I guess there was a time when F1 used to be like that, but not in living memory).
And by the way - Honda riders normally do very well in TT - in fact they have pushed the lap record higher year on year.
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Best result of the season so far in Hungary with Alonso finishing in 5th and Button in 9th, bringing McLaren up to 17 points in the Constructors' rankings. Although I wonder how much of that was down to the bad luck that inflicted the big players of Hamilton, Rosberg (Mercedes) and Kimi Raikonnen (Ferrari).
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Definitely a better race for them especially after, once again, a poor practice and qualifying.
Four weeks break now when the teams are supposed take a break and not do any development work for two of those weeks, yeah right !!
Vic.
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The McLaren Honda drivers finished in 13th (Alonso) and 14th (Button) at the Belgium GP last weekend.
http://www.mclaren.com/formula1/2015/belgian-grand-prix/2015-belgian-grand-prix-race-report/ (http://www.mclaren.com/formula1/2015/belgian-grand-prix/2015-belgian-grand-prix-race-report/)
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Italian GP - Button finished in 14th and Alonso retired due to technical problem:
http://www.mclaren.com/formula1/2015/italian-grand-prix/2015-italian-grand-prix-race-report/ (http://www.mclaren.com/formula1/2015/italian-grand-prix/2015-italian-grand-prix-race-report/)
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What's wrong?
http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12479/9948073/what8217s-gone-wrong-at-mclaren-honda-and-how-can-they-fix-it (http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12479/9948073/what8217s-gone-wrong-at-mclaren-honda-and-how-can-they-fix-it)
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BBC Sport have a VERY long article about Honda's engine problems , why they exist , comparison of power output to others and (effectively) why they are unlikely to be solved soon...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/34208407 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/34208407)
Well worth reading...
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It certainly looks as though Mercedes got the basic design and layout right first time and it is surprising that considering the late entry Honda had to the new engine regime they haven't taken a leaf out of Mercedes' book.
Vic.
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All the comments I have read suggest Honda is very much in NIH mode (Not invented Here).
And frankly if they are, they will get nowhere...
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Both drivers failed to finish at the Singapore GP due to gearbox problems.
With six more races in the season left it looks like a case of damage limitation with McLaren currently in 9th out of the ten constructors.
http://www.mclaren.com/formula1/2015/singapore-grand-prix/2015-singapore-grand-prix-race-report/ (http://www.mclaren.com/formula1/2015/singapore-grand-prix/2015-singapore-grand-prix-race-report/)
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Japanese F1 - Alonso finished in 11th and Button in 16th.
http://www.mclaren.com/formula1/2015/japanese-grand-prix/2015-japanese-grand-prix-race-report/ (http://www.mclaren.com/formula1/2015/japanese-grand-prix/2015-japanese-grand-prix-race-report/)
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I noticed a lot more coverage during the race of the Honda engine cars, I even saw Hamilton once caught in the edge of shot after lapping Button. The race TV director continued watching the Hondas for a while, I know F1 fans want to see more overtaking but I'm not sure they had this in mind ;D
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Button finished in the points zone in 9th and Alonso in 11th (was 10th but received a five second penalty). Yet again though the accumulation of points appears to be down to a clear out of some higher ranking drivers due to mechanical failures or accidents:
http://www.mclaren.com/formula1/2015/russian-grand-prix/2015-russian-grand-prix-race-report/ (http://www.mclaren.com/formula1/2015/russian-grand-prix/2015-russian-grand-prix-race-report/)
Button now joins Alonso for 2016 after some speculation that he could be out of a seat next season.
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There is an excellent article in Motor Sport magazine explaining the Honda engine problems.
They largely revolve around the packaging of the engine in the space McLaren have allowed for it.
One of the problems is the size of the turbo and another is electrical energy recovery not being high enough.
It's all too complicated for me and as for racing engines being limited in fuel consumption !
Vic.
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Correct, they knew this at the start of the season, because the Mclaren last year had poor aero, they redesigned the chassis as more compact and lower, but they didn't factor in the fact that the Honda block was larger than the Merc. So rather than redesign the chassis, Honda have had to try to shoehorn the block and ancilliaries into the existing package, therefore smaller turbo and energy collection system. This means that the cars run out of steam quicker than others as they cannot harvest as much electrical boost. They have also been getting hotter and wrecking the electrics.
Honda will get there in the end.
Nice to see Button there next year, then rallycross maybe?
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Alonso finished in 11th and Button in 7th (classified 6th due to 5 second penalty for Carlos Sainz).
Congratulations to Mercedes' Lewis Hamilton in winning his third F1 world title.
http://www.mclaren.com/formula1/2015/united-states-grand-prix/2015-united-states-grand-prix-race-report/ (http://www.mclaren.com/formula1/2015/united-states-grand-prix/2015-united-states-grand-prix-race-report/)
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Congratulations to Mercedes' Lewis Hamilton in winning his third F1 world title.
A British driver in a British built car - good news (and yes the Mercedes F1 car is built in Britain, every bit of it including the engine)
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Alonso failed to finish and Button finished in 14th:
http://www.mclaren.com/formula1/2015/mexican-grand-prix/2015-mexican-grand-prix-race-report/ (http://www.mclaren.com/formula1/2015/mexican-grand-prix/2015-mexican-grand-prix-race-report/)
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Brazilian F1 - Alonso in 16th and Button in 15th.
http://www.mclaren.com/formula1/2015/brazilian-grand-prix/2015-brazilian-grand-prix-race-report/ (http://www.mclaren.com/formula1/2015/brazilian-grand-prix/2015-brazilian-grand-prix-race-report/)
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A disappointing season for Mclaren-Honda ended with the Abu Dhabi GP - Alonso in 16th and Button in 12th.
http://www.mclaren.com/formula1/2015/abu-dhabi-grand-prix/2015-abu-dhabi-grand-prix-race-report/ (http://www.mclaren.com/formula1/2015/abu-dhabi-grand-prix/2015-abu-dhabi-grand-prix-race-report/)
The 2015 rankings are as follows:
Drivers:
Lewis Hamilton - GBR - Mercedes - 381 points
Nico Roseberg - GER - Mercedes - 322
Sebastian Vettel - GER - Ferrari - 278
Kimi Raikkonen - FIN - Ferrari - 150
Valtteri Bottas - FIN - Williams - 136
Felipe Massa - BRA - Williams - 121
Daniil Kvyat - RUS - Red Bull Racing - 95
Daniel Riccardo - AUS - Red Bull Racing - 92
Sergio Perez - MEX - Force India - 78
Nico Hulkenberg - GER - Force India - 58
Romain Grosjean - FRA - Lotus - 51
Max Verstappen - NED - Toro Rosso - 49
Felipe Nasr - BRA - Sauber - 27
Pastor Maldonado - VEN - Lotus - 27
Carlos Sainz - ESP - Toro Rosso - 18
Jenson Button - GBR - Mclaren - 16
Fernando Alonso - ESP - Mclaren - 11
Marcus Ericsson - SWE - Sauber - 9
Roberto Merhi - ESP - Marussia - 0
Alexander Rossi - USA - Marussia - 0
Will Stevens - GBR - Marussia - 0
Constructors:
Mercedes - 703 points
Ferrari - 428
Williams - 257
Red Bull - 187
Force India - 136
Lotus - 78
Toro Rosso - 67
Sauber - 36
Mclaren - 27
Marussia - 0
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At least they both finished although Alonso at one time said he wanted to knock it on the head after a drive through penalty put him even further back.
There are mutterings that Alonso may have a year out of racing if the car doesn't improve, who would take his place I wonder ?
Vic.
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From another forum (non car)
"Honda have confirmed they have fixed the basic problems with the engine recharging and deploying electrical power, they just need to test it on track now for reliability.
So that's the main engine issue fixed, if it proves to be reliable at testing 66/1 and 150/1 on Alonso and Button respectively looks very generous. I've been told fixing the recharging and deployment issue will bring 2s per lap of performance gains on power tracks and around 1s per lap on aero tracks. Obviously we are going to have to wait and see what kind of aero improvements they make. Depending on what improvements Merc and Ferrari make it McLaren could be in for a decent season. "
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/01/13/a-reminder-that-national-nomination-polls-at-this-stage-in-white-house-races-have-to-be-treated-with-caution/#vanilla-comments (http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/01/13/a-reminder-that-national-nomination-polls-at-this-stage-in-white-house-races-have-to-be-treated-with-caution/#vanilla-comments)
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I think Honda rushed the engine last season and were testing and developing it as they went along.
Hopefully they would had more time this time round to do things "properly" as having the likes of Alonso and Button on the payroll wont be cheap
Fingers crossed they'll have a better, more competitive season 8)
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I read that Mclaren designers had not allowed enough space for Honda powerplant so that Honda had to downsize everything to fit in and in doing so lost performance.
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I read that Mclaren designers had not allowed enough space for Honda powerplant so that Honda had to downsize everything to fit in and in doing so lost performance.
Yeah, Honda had to shoehorn the engine into the space as the design of the car had been done or something like that
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Well it can't be any worse than last year surely. :o
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It will be worse than last year.
Honda are lots of seconds a lap behind.. and their competitors have proven faster designs and will not stand still. Honda has a new design untested in racing..
Their approach is amateurish in the extreme. (They cut investment in F1 to fund their hydrogen fuelled car)