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Other Hondas & General Topics => Off Topic (Non-Honda) => Topic started by: Neil Ives on January 02, 2023, 10:05:36 AM

Title: Poor visibility, no lights
Post by: Neil Ives on January 02, 2023, 10:05:36 AM
I drove to London on Saturday on the M40. It rained heavily during the trip; visibility at times was very poor. During this I brought my speed down and stayed in the slow lane; meanwhile, cars, many in a grey/silver, (same colour as a rainstorm)  were pelting along through the storm, driving much too close to the car in front.
The thing that shocked me was how many cars had no rear lights showing. When I started checking, many modern cars had front driving lights on only. This situation seems highly dangerous. I'm pretty sure that most drivers had no idea they had no rearlight when the little telltale in the dashboard is lit.
Title: Re: Poor visibility, no lights
Post by: Kremmen on January 02, 2023, 10:16:52 AM
There seems to be some brain dead drivers who use their lights to see and not to be seen.

They seem unaware of the danger they are putting themselves and others in.

If I consider it dark enough I often give approaching vehicles some main beam to make a point unless my main beam would affect someone else.
Title: Re: Poor visibility, no lights
Post by: Jocko on January 02, 2023, 10:18:39 AM
I have seen many cars driving, in town, with only front DLRs on. The driver sees a brightish light to the front and with many modern cars the instrument panel lights up as soon as you turn the ignition on (is the new Jazz like that?) and off they go, oblivious to the fact they are all dark to the rear.
Title: Re: Poor visibility, no lights
Post by: Kenneve on January 02, 2023, 10:42:02 AM
With the Mk4 there is no choice, the auto headlight system will put the headlights on, and you can't override the system.
Best be safe than sorry!

I very often see older cars driving about with no lights at all and you say with colours that blend in with the tarmac. Absolute idiots!!
Title: Re: Poor visibility, no lights
Post by: Neil Ives on January 02, 2023, 11:43:08 AM
In the MK4 Jazz, if you set 'Simple' view on the display you can see what lights are on.
Title: Re: Poor visibility, no lights
Post by: ColinB on January 02, 2023, 12:07:31 PM
With the Mk4 there is no choice, the auto headlight system will put the headlights on, and you can't override the system.

That belief is part of the problem, because it's not correct. Can't comment on the Mk4, but on the Mk3 the auto system only puts the lights on if the light level is low or if the wipers are working. In mist or fog, the light level is often high enough NOT to trigger the auto system, you have to actually switch both your brain and the lights on (two clicks to get the dipped headlights, not just one click which only operates the sidelights).
Title: Re: Poor visibility, no lights
Post by: Kremmen on January 02, 2023, 12:53:17 PM
He's right, the 4 has mandatory front lights.

There is an off position but it's spring loaded and as soon as you start to move the dipped or DRL come on.
Title: Re: Poor visibility, no lights
Post by: Neil Ives on January 02, 2023, 02:21:49 PM
He's right, the 4 has mandatory front lights.

There is an off position but it's spring loaded and as soon as you start to move the dipped or DRL come on.
On the MK4, do the driving lights always include the rear lights?
Title: Re: Poor visibility, no lights
Post by: Kremmen on January 02, 2023, 03:56:48 PM
Yes, if dipped beam is auto selected instead of DRL then the rears come on.
Title: Re: Poor visibility, no lights
Post by: ColinB on January 02, 2023, 05:04:33 PM
He's right, the 4 has mandatory front lights.

There is an off position but it's spring loaded and as soon as you start to move the dipped or DRL come on.

Are you saying the Mk4 Jazz headlights are always on when the car is moving? That's definitely different to the Mk3, which has lights controlled by a sensor. I'm sure I've seen Mk4s with DRLs only. Mk3 lighting modes:
Car moving in daylight: front DRLs on, no rear lights. Can manually select sidelights or headlights if required in poor visibility which overrides DRLs and turns on rear lights.
Car moving in rain: dipped headlights and rear lights come on.
Car moving at night: front headlights on (dipped or full beam depending on auto high beam system), rear lights on. Can't turn lights off, spring-loaded switch always returns to auto position.
So the Mk4 is different and is always in night-time mode?
Title: Re: Poor visibility, no lights
Post by: Neil Ives on January 02, 2023, 05:55:30 PM
Double checking: On the MK4 Jazz, is it possible to be driving in poor visibility conditions with only the Daytime Driving, (front) Lights on?
Title: Re: Poor visibility, no lights
Post by: Kenneve on January 02, 2023, 06:37:05 PM
Double checking: On the MK4 Jazz, is it possible to be driving in poor visibility conditions with only the Daytime Driving, (front) Lights on?
No, headlights will always be On And cannot be overridden (On/Off switch is spring loaded to On.)
The sensor can put the lights On, even in sunlight in the right circumstances ,(ie shadows etc )
Title: Re: Poor visibility, no lights
Post by: ColinB on January 02, 2023, 08:14:31 PM
Double checking: On the MK4 Jazz, is it possible to be driving in poor visibility conditions with only the Daytime Driving, (front) Lights on?
No, headlights will always be On And cannot be overridden (On/Off switch is spring loaded to On.)
The sensor can put the lights On, even in sunlight in the right circumstances ,(ie shadows etc )

Just to be clear and hopefully avoid even more confusion, I think you mean the switch is always in the auto position ... but that doesn't mean the headlights are actually on, it just means the auto system is enabled so it will turn the lights on if it so decides. The DRLs will always be on if you're driving, but that doesn't mean the headlights and taillights are on. Just like the Mk3, they will come on if the computer decides so. And in mist or fog it may not be sufficiently dark so the driver then needs to switch them manually. A belief that "the computer will always do it" is probably why you see so many cars where the drivers haven't bothered.

P.191 of the online manual seems to describe this:
https://www.honda.co.uk/cars/owners/manuals-and-guides/honda-owners-manuals/_jcr_content/par1/textcolumnwithimagem_1653971839/textColumn/richtextdownload_e3c/file.res/23%20JAZZ%20HEV%20SSS%20(KE%20KG)-32TZA6210_01_web_compressed.pdf
"The lights will turn on automatically depending on the ambient brightness"
Title: Re: Poor visibility, no lights
Post by: Kenneve on January 02, 2023, 08:42:03 PM
Double checking: On the MK4 Jazz, is it possible to be driving in poor visibility conditions with only the Daytime Driving, (front) Lights on?
No, headlights will always be On And cannot be overridden (On/Off switch is spring loaded to On.)
The sensor can put the lights On, even in sunlight in the right circumstances ,(ie shadows etc )

P.191 of the online manual seems to describe this:
https://www.honda.co.uk/cars/owners/manuals-and-guides/honda-owners-manuals/_jcr_content/par1/textcolumnwithimagem_1653971839/textColumn/richtextdownload_e3c/file.res/23%20JAZZ%20HEV%20SSS%20(KE%20KG)-32TZA6210_01_web_compressed.pdf
"The lights will turn on automatically depending on the ambient brightness"

My previous answer refers to the question re ‘poor visibility driving conditions’ and I believe is correct.
In fact the system generally activates, in conditions others may find too bright, as stated.
And of course if the headlights are On, the rear lights are also On.
Title: Re: Poor visibility, no lights
Post by: Kremmen on January 03, 2023, 04:31:55 AM
He's right, the 4 has mandatory front lights.

There is an off position but it's spring loaded and as soon as you start to move the dipped or DRL come on.

Are you saying the Mk4 Jazz headlights are always on when the car is moving? That's definitely different to the Mk3, which has lights controlled by a sensor. I'm sure I've seen Mk4s with DRLs only. Mk3 lighting modes:
Car moving in daylight: front DRLs on, no rear lights. Can manually select sidelights or headlights if required in poor visibility which overrides DRLs and turns on rear lights.
Car moving in rain: dipped headlights and rear lights come on.
Car moving at night: front headlights on (dipped or full beam depending on auto high beam system), rear lights on. Can't turn lights off, spring-loaded switch always returns to auto position.
So the Mk4 is different and is always in night-time mode?

Yes. When I climb in mine, in daylight hours, but in the darker garage, as soon as I powerup the dipped beam and tail lights come on due to the dash top sensor deciding I need front and rear lights.

I can then use the spring loaded twist switch to turn them fully off. But, as soon as I select drive they come on again.

Scenario 2 is the dipped lights come on as before but I don't turn them off and electrically open the garage door. As soon as the brighter light is detected the dipped beam changes to DRL.

Hope that makes sense.
Title: Re: Poor visibility, no lights
Post by: ColinB on January 03, 2023, 07:49:41 AM
Yes. When I climb in mine, in daylight hours, but in the darker garage, as soon as I powerup the dipped beam and tail lights come on due to the dash top sensor deciding I need front and rear lights.

I can then use the spring loaded twist switch to turn them fully off. But, as soon as I select drive they come on again.

Scenario 2 is the dipped lights come on as before but I don't turn them off and electrically open the garage door. As soon as the brighter light is detected the dipped beam changes to DRL.

Hope that makes sense.

That’s exactly what I’ve been saying, ie in auto mode the headlights & position lights come on when the sensor detects they need to be on (and they’ll be turned off when not needed), and that’s exactly the same as the Mk3. But yet there seems to be a belief in some quarters that they are on all the time.

Back to this question:
Double checking: On the MK4 Jazz, is it possible to be driving in poor visibility conditions with only the Daytime Driving, (front) Lights on?
The answer is yes, it is possible if the wipers aren’t operating (or if you’ve turned off that linkage) and if the light level is strong enough not to trigger the sensor (as it might be in mist or fog). I suspect that’s no different on other marques, so reliance on “the computer always turns the lights on” is likely to be a reason you see modern cars with only DRLs in poor conditions. Older cars without the automation will still rely on the driver having his/her brain switched on, which is not always the case. 

Regarding this:
... many modern cars had front driving lights on only. ... I'm pretty sure that most drivers had no idea they had no rearlight when the little telltale in the dashboard is lit.
The dashboard telltale will come on when the headlights &/or position lights, and taillights, are on, not when the car is only showing DRLs.
Title: Re: Poor visibility, no lights
Post by: Kremmen on January 03, 2023, 08:33:51 AM
On my 9G Civic I could manual select 'DRL only' when I thought it was bright enough not to need dipped beam and tail lights.

Not so on the 4, you can select sidelights / tail lights but that turns off DRL which is risky with todays drivers.
Title: Re: Poor visibility, no lights
Post by: Neil Ives on January 03, 2023, 09:33:47 AM
Sorry if I'm being thick: On the MK4 Jazz is there a scenario where the car has lights only at the front?
Title: Re: Poor visibility, no lights
Post by: Kremmen on January 03, 2023, 09:43:55 AM
DRL, that's it.

But if the sensor thinks you should be on dipped beam then tail lights it is.
Title: Re: Poor visibility, no lights
Post by: Beaver on January 03, 2023, 09:59:14 AM
Fortunately, as drivers, we're allowed to use common sense and turn on our own headlights when light, visibility and road conditions merit it!   I usually leave the switch on Auto, but regularly select headlights if I deem it necessary.
Title: Re: Poor visibility, no lights
Post by: Jazzik on January 03, 2023, 10:18:54 AM
When I climb in mine, in daylight hours, but in the darker garage, as soon as I powerup the dipped beam and tail lights come on due to the dash top sensor deciding I need front and rear lights.

I can then use the spring loaded twist switch to turn them fully off. But, as soon as I select drive they come on again.

Scenario 2 is the dipped lights come on as before but I don't turn them off and electrically open the garage door. As soon as the brighter light is detected the dipped beam changes to DRL.

Hope that makes sense.

Our Jazz acts accordingly and says: Yes! That makes sense.  :D
Title: Re: Poor visibility, no lights
Post by: Kremmen on January 03, 2023, 10:23:10 AM
Not always, I'll think you'll remember this.

Hardly dark but my headlights were forced on :

(https://i.imgur.com/oRha1su.jpg)

At the time I was the only car on the road with dipped beam blazing away.
Title: Re: Poor visibility, no lights
Post by: Lord Voltermore on January 04, 2023, 04:42:13 PM
How can I cruise around at night with no lights?   And  during  quiet EV mode the engine might suddenly start itself.  Looks like I will have to give up my two part time jobs, Night poacher and burglar. 
Title: Re: Poor visibility, no lights
Post by: Kremmen on January 05, 2023, 03:47:27 AM
I was thinking about this thread the other day.

In auto mode the sensor decides whether you are displaying DRL or dipped beam
You can override this to sidelights or main beam or permanent dipped beam

At the rear the sensor decides whether the tail lights are on or off, you have no choice.

Title: Re: Poor visibility, no lights
Post by: ColinB on January 05, 2023, 07:47:27 AM
At the rear the sensor decides whether the tail lights are on or off, you have no choice.

You can't switch the rear lights independently, but you can choose to have them on if you want. Taillight operation is linked to the front lights. So the taillights will come on automatically when the position lights (aka sidelights) or headlamps come on. If you want rear lights and the sensor hasn’t kicked in to turn them all on automatically (the dashboard telltale isn’t lit) you turn both front and tail lights on manually by rotating the switch on the end of the stalk.
Title: Re: Poor visibility, no lights
Post by: Jocko on January 05, 2023, 10:10:08 AM
This thread has now gravitated to the newer Jazz. Many cars with DLRs do not have auto lights, or have the facility to switch the auto off. These are often the culprits. They have DLRs to the front and nothing to the rear often in fog and sometimes even after dark in town.
Title: Re: Poor visibility, no lights
Post by: Neil Ives on January 05, 2023, 10:38:51 AM
This thread has now gravitated to the newer Jazz. Many cars with DLRs do not have auto lights, or have the facility to switch the auto off. These are often the culprits. They have DLRs to the front and nothing to the rear often in fog and sometimes even after dark in town.
Exactly. I'm sure most of those drivers are not aware of having no rear lights.
Title: Re: Poor visibility, no lights
Post by: ColinB on January 05, 2023, 01:06:19 PM
This thread has now gravitated to the newer Jazz. Many cars with DLRs do not have auto lights, or have the facility to switch the auto off. These are often the culprits. They have DLRs to the front and nothing to the rear often in fog and sometimes even after dark in town.
Exactly. I'm sure most of those drivers are not aware of having no rear lights.

Which is why I said ...
... reliance on “the computer always turns the lights on” is likely to be a reason you see modern cars with only DRLs in poor conditions. Older cars without the automation will still rely on the driver having his/her brain switched on, which is not always the case. 
Title: Re: Poor visibility, no lights
Post by: Kremmen on January 05, 2023, 01:09:15 PM
In the old days you knew your lights were off because the Smiths dials were dark.

Or if you had a Rover 2000 the little protruding plastic lenses wern't illuminated.
Title: Re: Poor visibility, no lights
Post by: ColinB on January 05, 2023, 01:17:54 PM
In the old days you knew your lights were off because the Smiths dials were dark.

Or if you had a Rover 2000 the little protruding plastic lenses wern't illuminated.

Which is why manufacturers thoughtfully provide an indicator on the dashboard that lights up when your lights are on. But hey, who even knows what those funny little symbols mean.
Title: Re: Poor visibility, no lights
Post by: Kremmen on January 05, 2023, 01:21:04 PM
Yes, they see the dash light up and forget to check.

It's also worth knowing what the symbols mean. My dealer has a habit of leaving the front fogs on after a service.
Title: Re: Poor visibility, no lights
Post by: Neil Ives on January 05, 2023, 01:38:51 PM
Which is why manufacturers thoughtfully provide an indicator on the dashboard that lights up when your lights are on. But hey, who even knows what those funny little symbols mean.
So, to check, when DRL's are on, there is no telltale on the cars display?

I am happy to understand what the automation on my car does; my wife however is not; it's all too much trouble for her. I suppose the fact it's not fully automated is a problem for some people; the driver needs to understand the automation and when to use it. I'm going to try again to get her to understand about Daytime Running Lights that have no back lights;  wish me luck  :-[
Title: Re: Poor visibility, no lights
Post by: Pine on January 05, 2023, 01:49:29 PM
Have you noticed that the people who drive black cars are the last to put their lights on in the evenings.
Title: Re: Poor visibility, no lights
Post by: Kremmen on January 05, 2023, 02:08:14 PM
So, to check, when DRL's are on, there is no telltale on the cars display?

I am happy to understand what the automation on my car does; my wife however is not; it's all too much trouble for her. I suppose the fact it's not fully automated is a problem for some people; the driver needs to understand the automation and when to use it. I'm going to try again to get her to understand about Daytime Running Lights that have no back lights;  wish me luck  :-[

Tell her not to worry and just allow the Mk4 to control the lights by leaving it in the Auto position.
Title: Re: Poor visibility, no lights
Post by: Jazzik on January 05, 2023, 02:41:15 PM
But hey, who even knows what those funny little symbols mean.

(https://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/midi/froehlich/a049.gif)
Title: Re: Poor visibility, no lights
Post by: Neil Ives on January 05, 2023, 04:16:48 PM
So, to check, when DRL's are on, there is no telltale on the cars display?

I am happy to understand what the automation on my car does; my wife however is not; it's all too much trouble for her. I suppose the fact it's not fully automated is a problem for some people; the driver needs to understand the automation and when to use it. I'm going to try again to get her to understand about Daytime Running Lights that have no back lights;  wish me luck  :-[

Tell her not to worry and just allow the Mk4 to control the lights by leaving it in the Auto position.

We seem to have returned to the first post. I'm worried after I saw cars driving in heavy rain with no rear lights that my wife may not realise that she has no rear lights.
Title: Re: Poor visibility, no lights
Post by: ColinB on January 05, 2023, 04:26:56 PM
So, to check, when DRL's are on, there is no telltale on the cars display?

Mindful of the fact that this is a generic thread, all I can say is that on my car (Mk3 Jazz) there is no such telltale. The "DRL on" state is the normal state of the car when the engine is running, the driver has no control of them so there's no need to have a light to tell him they're on. I suspect the Mk4 Jazz is the same. Other marques/models ... no idea.
Title: Re: Poor visibility, no lights
Post by: ColinB on January 05, 2023, 04:35:56 PM
We seem to have returned to the first post. I'm worried after I saw cars driving in heavy rain with no rear lights that my wife may not realise that she has no rear lights.

In heavy rain, in your Mk4 Jazz, you don't need to worry. There is a linkage between wipers and lights that will turn on dipped headlights (including taillights) when the wipers are operating (although I think there is a setting to disable that linkage, you might like to check). The dashboard telltale will come on to tell the driver the lights are on.

A situation that might be of concern is daylight mist or fog when the light might not be poor enough to trigger the auto lights function. The telltale won't be on, so the driver needs to recognise that and turn the lights on manually.
Title: Re: Poor visibility, no lights
Post by: Kremmen on January 05, 2023, 04:38:48 PM
Yes the same.

I suspect the Mk3 is the same as my 9G Civic :

Off
Auto
Sidelights / tail lights
Dipped Beam / tail lights

The 4 is the same but the Off is spring loaded so it springs back to Auto.

If you are stationary, and I think in 'P', the Off will turn the lights off until you select drive, then either DRL or dipped beam comes on, big brother  :)
Title: Re: Poor visibility, no lights
Post by: ColinS on January 05, 2023, 04:48:01 PM
We seem to have returned to the first post. I'm worried after I saw cars driving in heavy rain with no rear lights that my wife may not realise that she has no rear lights.

I cannot believe that this thread is still running.  In my mind the automatic lights just look after themselves, except in the case of fog.

The simple answer that covers every eventuality is to advise your wife to use it as she would have 20 years ago.  When she thinks that she needs lights, switch them on and if she doesn't need them, then switch them off.  It is irrelevant that they may not actually switch off.  Just ignore everything else.