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On many forums I read, drivers are quite vocal in ruling out buying a Honda if the range is "CVT only".
Obviously there's a lack of understanding on how the 2 motor system works.
But why didn't they simply refer to it as Honda Hybrid Drive or something similar?
I've now had my Crosstar for 12 hours and loving it already. A perfect town/city car which, IMHO, is every bit as good as regular torque converter AT, or even dual-clutch AT.
I just feel Honda's marketing department dropped the ball on this one, especially as the same system is being used for HR-V and CR-V too!
What do you guys think?
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CVT transmissions get a bad rap in most motoring journals (although I found mine in the Mk3 very useful for town driving) so I tend to agree. Given it is not a CVT in the conventional sense it might have been better to drop the term.
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Yes Honda Hybrid Drive or HHD would have been a far better name.
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What's in a name...
The Honda specifications sheet says it uses an E-CVT type automatic transmission, but that’s a misnomer, albeit an intentional one because it’s a lot easier to explain to customers that the car uses an electric-type CVT rather than saying that it has no transmission.
There is nothing unusual with this arrangement. All Toyota hybrids with transverse engines use E-CVT, which is not a CVT at all, but a planetary gear set that replicates a CVT’s infinite ratio function.
So if it were a mistake for Honda, the same should be true for all Toyota hybrids, right?
Why then do these Toyota's sell so well, with an e-CVT (which has no resemblance at all to a conventional CVT)?
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Yes!
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but that’s a misnomer, albeit an intentional one because it’s a lot easier to explain to customers that the car uses an electric-type CVT rather than saying that it has no transmission.
Well, the Jazz has magic seats, why not magic drive ;-) No need to explain, just say "trust us, we're Honda. We gave you V-TEC"....
Although I do see your point :-)
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At fear of getting crucified by ZZJA again, :'(
As an experience CVT owner. I would agree. Most reviewers say it has a CVT gearbox which is a total misnomer as it is NOT a gearbox. It is a lock up clutch. The engine has no way of changing gear ratios, it is simply locked directly to the transmission and thence to the driven wheels and the noise is caused by it simply revving (eventually) to it rev limit.
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Yes a mistake. Many drivers dont like the strange mismatch in engine speed and road speed found on conventional CVT systems. To the extent that some may never buy one again. The name alone wont help sales. The new system is sufficiently different they need not mention CVT .
Hybrids do occasionally need to run the ICE faster than expected for the road speed but the new system makes it much less noticeable by varying engine speeds to simulate gear changes.
Proving Honda knew CVT characteristics can be unpopular yet chose to continue the name.
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At fear of getting crucified by ZZJA again, :'(
As an experience CVT owner. I would agree. Most reviewers say it has a CVT gearbox which is a total misnomer as it is NOT a gearbox. It is a lock up clutch. The engine has no way of changing gear ratios, it is simply locked directly to the transmission and thence to the driven wheels and the noise is caused by it simply revving (eventually) to it rev limit.
Not quite correct.
The engine is only locked directly to the transmission, during cruising or low power conditions.(above circa 45mph)
If max power is required, maybe to overtake another car or whatever, then the lock drops out and the transmission reverts to petrol/electric operation. whereby the engine does need to rev, generate the required energy to power the drive motor.
I believe this is what the so called experts journalists are concerned about.
However in my view that noise is far less than a conventional CVT gearbox and without doubt the MK4 Jazz is the best Jazz yet.
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I was fortunate because I'd read the many owner reviews on Civinfo about the Civic 10G CVT They all praised it so the latest Jazz with what I guessed was a similar setup didn't put me off.
They all highlighted that Honda had engineered a CVT that didn't 'scream' but performed very similar to a conventional auto with subtle gear changes.
What puzzles me is that I've read that the Mk4 Jazz has similar controlled pseudo gear changes but I've never noticed them on mine. Mine seems to be one smooth gear.
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I can definitely detect the 'gear changes'. Apart from ar full throttle, its a brilliant system, that's extremely refined 99pct of the time. ;D
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On many forums I read, drivers are quite vocal in ruling out buying a Honda if the range is "CVT only".
Obviously there's a lack of understanding on how the 2 motor system works.
But why didn't they simply refer to it as Honda Hybrid Drive or something similar?
I've now had my Crosstar for 12 hours and loving it already. A perfect town/city car which, IMHO, is every bit as good as regular torque converter AT, or even dual-clutch AT.
I just feel Honda's marketing department dropped the ball on this one, especially as the same system is being used for HR-V and CR-V too!
What do you guys think?
I'm not sure that Honda themselves actually use the term "e-CVT" do they? The only place I see that is in magazine reviews and other secondary sources where the author may well have invented the term because they can't get their head around how the hybrid system works. For example ...
https://www.parkers.co.uk/honda/jazz/hatchback-2020/15-i-mmd-hybrid-sr-ecvt-auto-5d/specs/
Honda themselves, on the Jazz website, use the term "e:HEV"...
https://www.honda.co.uk/cars/new/jazz-hybrid/overview.html
Can't see any mention of "CVT" in there anywhere.
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What puzzles me is that I've read that the Mk4 Jazz has similar controlled pseudo gear changes but I've never noticed them on mine. Mine seems to be one smooth gear.
I notice it most when doing a fairly long sustained acceleration from low speed to high speed such as when joining a motorway. Not so much when it cuts in for hill climbing . You can hear it in action when reviewers do a 0-62 acceleration run. You may not hear it at all if you keep your acceleration gentle and less than 80%.
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What puzzles me is that I've read that the Mk4 Jazz has similar controlled pseudo gear changes but I've never noticed them on mine. Mine seems to be one smooth gear.
It only SEEMS to be one smooth gear. But only if you don't dare to push your accelerator down properly. And I don't mean "pedal to the metal"...
But when you quickly merge onto a motorway, you should notice the "gear changes"...
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That's probably it then.
I have a light right foot and accelerate slowly and smoothly along the on ramp so I can blend in when joining motorways.
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At fear of getting crucified by ZZJA again, :'(
As an experience CVT owner. I would agree. Most reviewers say it has a CVT gearbox which is a total misnomer as it is NOT a gearbox. It is a lock up clutch. The engine has no way of changing gear ratios, it is simply locked directly to the transmission and thence to the driven wheels and the noise is caused by it simply revving (eventually) to it rev limit.
Not quite correct.
The engine is only locked directly to the transmission, during cruising or low power conditions.(above circa 45mph)
If max power is required, maybe to overtake another car or whatever, then the lock drops out and the transmission reverts to petrol/electric operation. whereby the engine does need to rev, generate the required energy to power the drive motor.
I believe this is what the so called experts journalists are concerned about.
However in my view that noise is far less than a conventional CVT gearbox and without doubt the MK4 Jazz is the best Jazz yet.
Apologies, I forgot to mention the speed and or requirement of more 'oomph'.
I was somewhat sidetracked when I posted this.
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That's probably it then.
I have a light right foot and accelerate slowly and smoothly along the on ramp so I can blend in when joining motorways.
Me too when I can. But recently I've had a couple where the on ramp from roundabout to carriageway was very short and I needed to give it some welly to merge safely . The car delivers, albeit with a bit more noise for a short time.
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I think the very nature of this car encourages a smooth approach. That does not mean "Sunday driver" slow, but there's something quite satisfying about the way it's been engineered. It also feels very solidly built, with the exception of the bonnet (which seems to be about 2kg total weight :P).
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I think they should have gone with 'hybrid EV' or something similar. Not many reviewers understand the petrol generator and the one speed cruising lock up clutched direct drive.
According to the Dartford Crossing, it's a plain CVT car:
JAZZ EX I-MMD CVT
is what comes up after I put my registration in.
There are several sections of road where I have to accelerate up to 70mph briskly in fairly heavy traffic, so I have experienced the 'gear changes' when doing so. They don't usually happen at other times though.
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I think they should have gone with 'hybrid EV' or something similar.
They did. That's why they call it "e:HEV". It's other 3rd parties who call it something different.
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That's probably it then.
I have a light right foot and accelerate slowly and smoothly along the on ramp so I can blend in when joining motorways.
I tested this earlier this evening. I was driving in town and despite accelerating hard to the local limit I detected no pseudo gear changes. I'm sure I have heard the gear change sounds though; I reckon it must have been when the car was accelerating hard up to motorway speeds.
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I'm not sure that Honda themselves actually use the term "e-CVT" do they? The only place I see that is in magazine reviews and other secondary sources where the author may well have invented the term because they can't get their head around how the hybrid system works. For example ...
https://www.parkers.co.uk/honda/jazz/hatchback-2020/15-i-mmd-hybrid-sr-ecvt-auto-5d/specs/
Honda themselves, on the Jazz website, use the term "e:HEV"...
https://www.honda.co.uk/cars/new/jazz-hybrid/overview.html
Can't see any mention of "CVT" in there anywhere.
Honda themselves DO use the term "eCVT": https://www.honda.co.uk/cars/new/jazz-hybrid/specification.html
Start with an engine - i-MMD eCVT
Petrol / Electric
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I remember those horrid little DAF cars that had a CVT transmission. It was done with a belt between conical pullies that moved apart or together to change the drive ratio. If anyone thinks that Honda have made something similar with their CVT they may be scared off.
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I remember those horrid little DAF cars that had a CVT transmission.
Here you hit the pride of this Dutchman full in the face!!! (https://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/smilie/boese/k014.gif)
(https://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/midi/froehlich/a068.gif)
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This is an interesting insight into the scale of the Global CVT Transmission market.
https://mobilityforesights.com/product/cvt-transmission-market/
Perhaps, in other markets, e-CVT has value.
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I'm not sure that Honda themselves actually use the term "e-CVT" do they? The only place I see that is in magazine reviews and other secondary sources where the author may well have invented the term because they can't get their head around how the hybrid system works. For example ...
https://www.parkers.co.uk/honda/jazz/hatchback-2020/15-i-mmd-hybrid-sr-ecvt-auto-5d/specs/
Honda themselves, on the Jazz website, use the term "e:HEV"...
https://www.honda.co.uk/cars/new/jazz-hybrid/overview.html
Can't see any mention of "CVT" in there anywhere.
Honda themselves DO use the term "eCVT": https://www.honda.co.uk/cars/new/jazz-hybrid/specification.html
Start with an engine - i-MMD eCVT
Petrol / Electric
So they do. However that’s only in one or two places, the rest of the website uses the e-HEV branding extensively; it seems clear that’s how Honda want to refer to it.
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I remember those horrid little DAF cars that had a CVT transmission.
Here you hit the pride of this Dutchman full in the face!!! (https://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/smilie/boese/k014.gif)
(https://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/midi/froehlich/a068.gif)
Sorry about that. I never drove one; they may have been good cars, after all, Volvo carried on using the variomatic transmission when they bought the company.
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I tested this earlier this evening. I was driving in town and despite accelerating hard to the local limit I detected no pseudo gear changes. I'm sure I have heard the gear change sounds though; I reckon it must have been when the car was accelerating hard up to motorway speeds.
Maybe a MY22 tweak ?
Why introduce fake gear changes when a smooth single gear works OK
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I thought you had insider knowledge about MY22 "tweaks" Kremmen? Is this a hint?
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I have no idea what the tweaks actually are.
All I know is that the MY22 had some software/firmware tweaks.
My source knows I'm here so has quite rightly kept what Honda want to keep confidential under their hat.
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It could be the MY20 and 21 cars get the same tweaks when next serviced hopefully.
On many cars the dealer updates the software during service now.
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Ah, no, I was told that the tweaks are for MY22 only, not retrospective.
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All Mk4 Jazz have the pseudo gear shifting, it only occurs when revs are held high e.g during fairly hard acceleration.
Will most likely depend on conditions eg. battery charge level etc.
My CRV eHEV does not have it and it revs higher for longer and then sounds more like a traditional CVT, that elastic band sound of sliding revs.
Jazz eHEV definitely sounds more like an AT shifting, but without any noticeable jolts just in sound.
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I presume that the pseudo gear changes are purely to make the transmission sound like a traditional auto box. Honda must have worried about people being deterred by a CVT tranny.
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I think it was a mistake to use the term CVT. I had a bad experience with a Nissan Juke CVT and had I not researched the transmission of the Jazz before I went to buy one it would have put me off.
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I remember those horrid little DAF cars that had a CVT transmission.
Here you hit the pride of this Dutchman full in the face!!! (https://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/smilie/boese/k014.gif)
(https://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/midi/froehlich/a068.gif)
Sorry about that. I never drove one; they may have been good cars, after all, Volvo carried on using the variomatic transmission when they bought the company.
I never drove one either, but have 2 amusing tales to tell.
When i worked for Shell one of my customers let his teenage son drive a DAF into the workshop for a service. he pushed the gear lever the wrong way and dropped it into the inspection pit. ( The gear lever had 3 positions. forwards, neutral, backwards)
The other, in a large ground (as opposed to multi-storey) car park, an elderly lady put it in reverse by mistake and hit the throttle hard. she then froze with fear and ricocheted of 7 cars in the car park. damaging all badly and writing off her poor little DAF!
The other problem was that in really heavy rain the rubber belt tended to slip on the pulleys. They were quite popular and competed with the 2CV. Finally the mechanics of the CVT just wasn't good enough and the fizzled out.
DAF make great trucks though!!!
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My only Daf story was my cousin.
He got married and the guests covered his with confetti. On his way to the hotel, a few hundred miles away, the confetti got into the air cooling ducts and they saw a piston fly through the bonnet as it overheated and he had no indication.
They were air cooled.
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So some owners are not experiencing it at all during their normal driving, and others relating the relatively infrequent circumstances when it might , and sometimes might not, happen. What does this say about motoring journalists who mention the noise?
For undecided prospective buyers. The engine noise is not that bad when it does happen . No worse than many cars make all the time. It may be more noticeable because of its absence most of the time.
A car that's remarkably quiet and refined 95% of the time at the cost of normal car noise levels 5% of the time is a fair trade off IMO. Especially as you get great fuel consumption and instant torque from 0 mph.
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My only Daf experience was seeing a Daf Dafodil parked under the Atomium in Brussels as a new car sales promotion.
I though it looked great , but then I was only about 8 years old. The atonium was impressive as well.
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Dutch hobby: racing backwards... only DAF with variomatic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZO-insDVzDE
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What's in a name...
The Honda specifications sheet says it uses an E-CVT type automatic transmission, but that’s a misnomer, albeit an intentional one because it’s a lot easier to explain to customers that the car uses an electric-type CVT rather than saying that it has no transmission.
There is nothing unusual with this arrangement. All Toyota hybrids with transverse engines use E-CVT, which is not a CVT at all, but a planetary gear set that replicates a CVT’s infinite ratio function.
So if it were a mistake for Honda, the same should be true for all Toyota hybrids, right?
Why then do these Toyota's sell so well, with an e-CVT (which has no resemblance at all to a conventional CVT)?
No.
CVT means Continuosly Variable Transmission, this means that there are infinite ratios between a power source (in our case the petrol engine) and an user, in this case, wheels. It doesnt matter if you obtain this feature using a belt (like most automotive CVTs) or if you use fluids (see the Honda DN01) or electrons (I-MMD system) to transfer the power.
The misunderstanding comes from the fact that belt driven technology has been mainly used in cars with a cvt transmission so now people believe that in a cvt they will always find a belt. but, mechanically speaking, every kind of transmission able to continuously vary the ratio between source and user must be called cvt, even if it works with electric generators and motors or hydraulic pumps and rotors.
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For what it’s worth I can definitely hear the pseudo gear changes on my Crosstar. Normal steady driving you don’t hear it all, push the accelerator a bit further and then you hear the gear changes. Go further and then the engine really revs and it is this that all the road testers seem to complain about.
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When you use the accelerator as an on/off switch it gets very noisy indeed... With or without CVT, but try to make these testers understand something so extremely difficult...
(https://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/smilie/konfus/a080.gif)
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yes for all the reasons stated earlier
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Racing a Daf backwards is a Fad (Daf backwards ;D) .
Does this mean that with our electric driven reverse it can be driven at the same speed backwards as forwards ?
If so its a pity you cant do handbrake turns with an electric handbrake! >:(
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Honda just need to get people behind the wheel on test drives. I wasn't expecting a torque converter like experience so I was pleasantly surprised.
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Does this mean that with our electric driven reverse it can be driven at the same speed backwards as forwards ?
If so its a pity you cant do handbrake turns with an electric handbrake! >:(
I wonder if the system will fully work as normal in reverse?
100mph, regen braking, petrol generator startingl/etc?
Maybe they have programmed in a limiter?
On the Prius as it has a type of gearbox, reverse is limited to 25-30mph.