Author Topic: Battery challenge 2016 jazz  (Read 3653 times)

1643

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Battery challenge 2016 jazz
« on: June 16, 2021, 03:45:50 PM »
I’ve fitted a LiFePO4 (powerlite ps-30) battery. Lithium batteries are suitable for stop-start systems and a 30AH lithium is equivalent to 60AH normal battery and with its 800cca is “more than enough for the jazz”. Well, that’s the theory. Trouble is the car has complicated electronics and it does not recognize this type of battery and as a result disables stop start feature. I took it to honda and other places and nobody could reprogram it to be happy with this battery. I know the easiest way to bring stop start back is to forget lithium and get a dedicated battery but that’s no good I now make 100+ stops on a 5 mile distance with a proper stop-start battery it was nearly flat towards the end and I had to leave my engine running in the winter, lithium copes well with that so I’m keeping it. I am just wondering what are my options to cheat the car to being stop start back to working order.

First hint was after car had a service and a diagnostic tool was plugged in to OBD the stop start started to work and was working for half a day. That was first time it ever worked in 2 months time since lithium battery was fitted. Then it stopped working again. Great, I can’t go to the garage for service on daily basis.

There were some hints to install some electronic components that would be giving feedback to car’s computer that the battery is charging / fully charged as it seems not to be getting this info directly from the battery.

Final option I’ve read about is an installation involving 2 batteries normal and lithium, I don’t know how it would work in practice though.

I am happy to explore anything that can help with this. Anything other than giving up and going back to stock battery.

Thanks in advance

nowster

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Re: Battery challenge 2016 jazz
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2021, 04:12:08 PM »
The car will be monitoring the battery discharge voltage curve which will be utterly different for LiFePO than it is for Lead-Acid.

E27006

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Re: Battery challenge 2016 jazz
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2021, 04:18:29 PM »
A replacement of a car battery is not a  simple choice due to the numerous types of battery chemistries available.
I do not understand the situation fully, I was told the car alternator and battery technology must be compatible, if you fit as an  example a Calcium \ Calcium technology battery in a car where the alternator is designed for traditional Lead Acid, the alternator  will not  charge  the calcium battery to a state of   full charge and the workable capacity of the battery is  reduced and wasted.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2021, 04:20:07 PM by E27006 »

nowster

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Re: Battery challenge 2016 jazz
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2021, 04:19:40 PM »


If the two batteries are built to have the same normal "good charge" voltage (usually around 13.8V), the charging monitoring circuit may think the LiFePO4 battery hasn't taken in much charge and is weak.

nowster

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Re: Battery challenge 2016 jazz
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2021, 04:35:12 PM »

1643

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Re: Battery challenge 2016 jazz
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2021, 06:19:44 PM »


If the two batteries are built to have the same normal "good charge" voltage (usually around 13.8V), the charging monitoring circuit may think the LiFePO4 battery hasn't taken in much charge and is weak.

That’s exactly what I think. Question is how to tell this „charging monitoring circuit” that it’s charged / charging good. Apparently some diagnostic tools do something I’ve no idea what they’re doing maybe some sort of a „reset to fully charged state” I am thinking of a more permanent solution. Fuel economy already improved with this lithium battery, would improve even more if I get stop start to work

nowster

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Re: Battery challenge 2016 jazz
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2021, 06:47:08 PM »
That’s exactly what I think. Question is how to tell this „charging monitoring circuit” that it’s charged / charging good. Apparently some diagnostic tools do something I’ve no idea what they’re doing maybe some sort of a „reset to fully charged state” I am thinking of a more permanent solution. Fuel economy already improved with this lithium battery, would improve even more if I get stop start to work
These days it's more likely to be a software function deep in an Engine Control Unit.

1643

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Re: Battery challenge 2016 jazz
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2021, 06:53:24 PM »
Yeah, took it to Honda „can’t do it”. Cause it’s not one of the straightforward procedures they do every day. I’ve no idea who could be able to hack the software, auto electricians & halfords couldn’t help

culzean

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Re: Battery challenge 2016 jazz
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2021, 07:04:36 PM »
That type of battery has been available for motorbikes for many years,  but a lot of people had problems with them,  the ones for bikes then came out with built in 'battery management system'......

I have a warning on my motorbike RR ( rectifier and regulator ) not to use LifePO2 batteries with it,  but some bikers on forums say the newer batteries with the controller built in are OK.... Myself, I have never had a problem with normal Yuasa AGM batteries on motorbikes and can't see the sense in paying 3x the price to save a pound or thereabouts weight of the battery...
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

culzean

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Re: Battery challenge 2016 jazz
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2021, 07:06:50 PM »
You say /  I now make 100+ stops on a 5 mile distance with a proper stop-start battery it was nearly flat towards the end and I had to leave my engine running in the winter, lithium copes well with that so I’m keeping it. I am just wondering what are my options to cheat the car to being stop start back to working order.

As you have said  '  lithium copes well with that so I’m keeping it. ' but then you tell us that the stop start does not work.
So I am a little confused.

Also rather you then me with that drive 100+ stops in only 5 miles.  :o

Have you done anything to the charging circuit of the car ?

The 'extra flooded' stop-start batteries are specially designed for 'deep cycle' performance,  they do not get damaged by being run down to low charge state. 

The charging circuit is definitely 'tuned' to the type of battery,  not too many years ago garages were fitting the 'wrong type' of battery to Ford vehicles and the system was refusing to charge them until the 'correct' type was fitted.  The charging system monitors the rate of charge with respect to ambient temperature as well.  The better charging systems on cars are responsible for allowing batteries to last up to 10+ years ( if you want to risk it ) by being tuned to the battery characteristics and
'cosseting'  the battery.  It will probably need a whole different module either for the alternator or ECU.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2021, 07:14:31 PM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

1643

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Re: Battery challenge 2016 jazz
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2021, 07:21:32 PM »
Yeah this battery has overcharging protection etc I’ve got the same in my bike too, no issues there. The „100 stops / 5 mile distance” is my courier work. Usually move my car by 50-100 yards at a time. The dedicated stop-start battery would do auto stop-start a few times, then not do it (that’s understandable with me doing such short distances) and towards the end of working day it struggled to start the car so I had to either sit in the car with engine running, or go for a ride to charge it up, or take my chances and leave my keys in and ignition running while delivering. I avoid the third option but in December there is no time for any breaks. Lithium will last a day of delivering happily, but stop start doesn’t work even if I drive 300 motorway miles at weekends the way it is now. I haven’t tampered with any car components just a mechanic used a computer to tell the car it’s got a new battery, that’s all

nowster

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Re: Battery challenge 2016 jazz
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2021, 09:58:06 PM »
100 stops in 5 miles? Have you thought of getting a milk float?

Seriously, though, this is the sort of job that electric vehicles (and to a lesser extent hybrids) excel at. It's why you see so many Priuses used as private hire minicabs nowadays.

E27006

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Re: Battery challenge 2016 jazz
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2021, 10:01:14 PM »
A recommendation is that a car alternator or a motorcycle alternator/ regulator/rectifier  is not intended to charge a battery from very low state of charge, It puts too much load on the vehicle charging system, it is good practice to recharge the flat battery with a mains charger.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2021, 10:03:43 PM by E27006 »

embee

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Re: Battery challenge 2016 jazz
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2021, 10:01:31 PM »
I have 3 bikes with the Shido LiFePO batteries which are plug-and-play in the bikes, no issues with the charging, the batteries look after that on the standard reg/recs.
The Li battery to replace a 10Ah Yuasa YTZ14S weighs one kg compared to 4kg for the lead one.

You need an inventive electronics person to come up with some way to convince the car that it's OK, could be tricky. Let us know if you succeed.

DomnicZZ

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Re: Battery challenge 2016 jazz
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2021, 06:40:26 AM »
Interesting discussion. I’d go with installing one of the Noco - on board battery chargers, and plug it in at the end of your journey. That way your lead acid stop start car battery would not be left in a discharged state for too long after a 100 stop journey. The built in mechanisms to protect the battery will disable stop start when the battery is too low to continue stop start operation.
My Jazz: 2004 CVT

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