Post by: Expatman on December 20, 2020, 04:47:08 PM
However shocked to discover that none of the quality tyre makers produce a 185x60 R16 86 load index all season tyre, in fact few sell any tyres that size.
This seems like a deal breaker and I'm surprised Honda haven't foreseen this and considered the tyre spec for the Crosstar.
Real problem for Crosstar buyers when they need new tyres and have little to no choice in tyres.
Post by: John Ratsey on December 20, 2020, 05:42:03 PM
Perhaps you should ask Honda UK if slightly wider (195) tyres would cause a problem (Crosstar owners will be interested in the answer when they need to change their tyres). If nothing else it might alert Honda to the poor range in that tyre size.
Post by: Downsizer on December 20, 2020, 06:36:39 PM
Post by: Rory on December 20, 2020, 07:12:55 PM
Real problem for Crosstar buyers when they need new tyres and have little to no choice in tyres.
It was similar when mk2 Jazz came out and 16" versions were 185/55R16 and the choice was very limited, and expensive. I got a set of 15" Honda wheels and ran the car (still do) year round on Michelin Alpin winter tyres.
Post by: John Ratsey on December 20, 2020, 10:09:00 PM
With 195 width, would you not drop to 55% profile to maintain a closer overall diameter? 185 x 60%=111. 195 x 55%=107. 195 x 60%=117.Thanks for pointing this out. There's still a good selection https://www.mytyres.co.uk/cgi-bin/rshop.pl?dsco=110&cart_id=2pGfI6X0YO3K6BkK.110.1840221644&sowigan=GAN&Breite=195&Quer=55&Felge=16&Speed=&kategorie=6&Marke=&ranzahl=4&search_tool=standard&rsmFahrzeugart=ALL&tyre_for=PKW&suchen=Search+for+tyres provided that the slightly wider tyres don't clash with anything immovable when on full lock.
Post by: 123Drive! on December 20, 2020, 11:18:18 PM
Post by: culzean on December 21, 2020, 11:01:13 AM
If 195 60 16 fits then I can recommend Maxxis AP3 as I m using them now. They are also very good value. But it's crazy 185 60 16 are not widely available.
The Mk2 Jazz with 16" wheels was the same when it came out, it had 185/55R16 tyres which were rare and expensive, one of the reasons I changed wifes to 15" wheels with widely available ( and much cheaper ) 175/65R15 tyres, the other thing was it improved the ride and road noise ( and possibly the MPG )..
Post by: Expatman on December 21, 2020, 01:40:58 PM
Doesn't change the problem however, there is very little choice of tyres in that size from any manufacturer - and only Falken make a suitable All Season tyre. So Crosstar drivers are excluded from the highest performance quality tyres. Is this a deal-breaker for anyone? Might be for me.
Post by: ndavey1 on December 21, 2020, 01:51:31 PM
Post by: richardfrost on December 21, 2020, 02:49:51 PM
I’m sure for most people it won’t matter. Many people are like me, buy the cheapest tyres available. What’s more important to me is car features (mk4 has got a ton) and mpg. My previous auto got 35mpg, now my mk4 gets average 70mpg. I couldn’t be happier.
When it comes to safety, your tyres are “where the rubber meets the road” so personally, I don’t look for the cheapest tyres so much as the best all round value. When I had my HRV that ran on Landsail Winter Tyres, cheap but not crap. In fact I still have them stored away, although I am not sure what I will do with them now!
Post by: Austriaman on December 21, 2020, 04:15:49 PM
Sorry everyone, actual tyre size confirmed by Honda as 185 55 R16 NOT 60 profile as I thought.If this helps, my Crosstar has 60 profile tyres fitted
Doesn't change the problem however, there is very little choice of tyres in that size from any manufacturer - and only Falken make a suitable All Season tyre. So Crosstar drivers are excluded from the highest performance quality tyres. Is this a deal-breaker for anyone? Might be for me.
Post by: culzean on December 21, 2020, 04:24:03 PM
I’m sure for most people it won’t matter. Many people are like me, buy the cheapest tyres available. What’s more important to me is car features (mk4 has got a ton) and mpg. My previous auto got 35mpg, now my mk4 gets average 70mpg. I couldn’t be happier.
Wow I can't believe you would rather have auto lights, Bluetooth and heated seats than safe tyres, they are the only contact the car has with the road, your self dipping headlights may end up dipping themselves in a river one day......
Post by: Expatman on December 21, 2020, 04:49:26 PM
Sorry everyone, actual tyre size confirmed by Honda as 185 55 R16 NOT 60 profile as I thought.If this helps, my Crosstar has 60 profile tyres fitted
Doesn't change the problem however, there is very little choice of tyres in that size from any manufacturer - and only Falken make a suitable All Season tyre. So Crosstar drivers are excluded from the highest performance quality tyres. Is this a deal-breaker for anyone? Might be for me.
Hi Austrian,
Were they fitted as original equipment or did you swap the 185/55 profile tyres for 185/60 profile? If so I guess you have to inform your insurer because you have 'modified' the car!
If they were fitted as original equipment then what is going on with Honda?
Post by: jazzaro on December 21, 2020, 05:47:15 PM
Sorry everyone, actual tyre size confirmed by Honda as 185 55 R16 NOT 60 profile as I thought.Jazz GR 2020 SE and SR 185/60R15 88H
Jazz GR 2020 EX 185/55R16 87H
Jazz GR 2020 Crosstar 185/60R16 86H
These are tyre size for italian GR Jazz, no other size allowed.
We can only downgrade the speed code using winter tires, but only from 15th november to 15th april.
Post by: Expatman on December 21, 2020, 06:06:44 PM
Post by: Cobb2 on December 21, 2020, 08:43:54 PM
Post by: jazzaro on December 21, 2020, 09:09:54 PM
Honda UK confirmed in email to me that tyre spec for UK Crosstar is 185/55 R16 87H. Not sure why it should be different in Italy?I think Honda UK is not well informed about its car specs, same problem of Honda Italy, to be honest.
You can read the last two rows of the table, at the end of this page: https://hondanews.eu/eu/en/cars/media/pressreleases/303367/2020-honda-jazz-and-jazz-crosstar-1
It would be interesting to know if GR rims have the same ET of GK ones, I found no info about this.
EDIT 42700TZAJ91 Crosstar 16' rims, have 45mm ET.
Post by: Expatman on December 21, 2020, 10:50:35 PM
Post by: Downsizer on December 22, 2020, 09:52:44 AM
Post by: MRCLICKCLICK on December 22, 2020, 09:57:26 AM
Post by: Expatman on December 22, 2020, 03:50:59 PM
Just to confuse things even more the configurator has an option at £440 for a rear view camera for the Crosstar while the equipment spec says the rear view camera in a standard fitment - which it is!
I must admit I am disappointed in Honda(UK) ability to get even the basics right on their website - is their customer service always this bad?
Post by: Westy36 on December 22, 2020, 04:54:12 PM
Post by: John Ratsey on December 22, 2020, 09:22:36 PM
Post by: Expatman on December 22, 2020, 10:52:26 PM
Well Expatman, you've got actual owners kind enough to check their tyre sizes and your "local Honda dealer who categorically stated" so too. So on that basis, you now know the tyre size for sure. You know the seat height also from earlier posts. So have you actualy sat in one or taken a test driven yet? What did you make of it?Sadly no - and apart from seeing just one in the flesh (so to speak) all my info comes from the web and reviews. The one I saw in a carpark looked better than I was led to believe and the height from a quick viewing looked to be okay. Didn’t like to spend too much time examining someone else car.
When I come to change my car (usually 4-5 years) I like to gather as much info as possible before visiting dealers for test drives etc. that way I can eliminate any contenders that don’t meet my criteria. I don’t suppose I would have looked at the Crosstar at all but for a couple of good reviews and my feeling that my next car should probably be a Hybrid or PHEV. I don’t really need a car any bigger than my current Yeti, rarely are there more than 2 of us in the car and price (within reason) is not a deciding factor. However, you are right, in that until I have driven the car I really am fishing in the dark, refinement, ride comfort and ease of entry/exit can only be assessed by physically driving the car so my next step is to finish my review of competitors, draw up a shortlist then test drive them all. I am in no real hurry so don’t expect to come to a decision before the Autumn of 2021 with delivery early 2022. The other advantage is that will give the Crosstar a year of settling down so Honda can iron out any minor flaws and review the fitments - who knows might even include a dipping rear view mirror!!!!
Post by: ndavey1 on December 23, 2020, 08:16:55 AM
Oh and I done my back in recently, could hardly walk or bend. I managed easier to get in and out of the jazz than my wife’s juke. Very spacious for its class.
Post by: Westy36 on December 23, 2020, 01:10:44 PM
Sorry to hear that. Back pain is horrible. Hope you are on the mend. :)
Sadly no - and apart from seeing just one in the flesh (so to speak) all my info comes from the web and reviews. The one I saw in a carpark looked better than I was led to believe and the height from a quick viewing looked to be okay. Didn’t like to spend too much time examining someone else car.
When I come to change my car (usually 4-5 years) I like to gather as much info as possible before visiting dealers for test drives etc. that way I can eliminate any contenders that don’t meet my criteria. I don’t suppose I would have looked at the Crosstar at all but for a couple of good reviews and my feeling that my next car should probably be a Hybrid or PHEV. I don’t really need a car any bigger than my current Yeti, rarely are there more than 2 of us in the car and price (within reason) is not a deciding factor. However, you are right, in that until I have driven the car I really am fishing in the dark, refinement, ride comfort and ease of entry/exit can only be assessed by physically driving the car so my next step is to finish my review of competitors, draw up a shortlist then test drive them all. I am in no real hurry so don’t expect to come to a decision before the Autumn of 2021 with delivery early 2022. The other advantage is that will give the Crosstar a year of settling down so Honda can iron out any minor flaws and review the fitments - who knows might even include a dipping rear view mirror!!!!
I'll tell you what, that is some serious research you do there Expatman. I often joke with Mrs Westy, that I put more research into buying day to day things like a microwave or renewing an insurance policy than most people do with their major life decisions such as marriage and house purchases! But, you beat me by some margin. 18 month considering various cars that you are going to own for 4-5 years is hardcore consideration for sure. :D
Sometimes you can over think things. I'm guilty of this occasionaly. Spend a while deliberating only to go full circle back to your original choice. A car is a tangible product. Try 2 or 3, make a decision and run with it. I don't think anybody in the history of car buying has ever bought a Honda and had a dud on their hands.
Post by: Expatman on December 23, 2020, 01:39:58 PM
I’ve never had a test drive as I order on the web and receive delivery, and I fell in love with the jazz straight away. It took me a few days to start using the advanced features, such as auto speed limiter, adaptive cruise control, brake hold etc. I wouldn’t have used these and got the real benefits of the car during a test drive. Mostly I’m impressed with the mpg. Before the colder weather I was getting 74-76 avg, now 68-70 avg due to engine coming on to heat the interior. Still great though!Is your Jazz the saloon or the Crosstar? Some reviews suggest the ride comfort of the Crosstar is softer and better than the Jazz saloon. What do you think - specially with your back problems.
Oh and I done my back in recently, could hardly walk or bend. I managed easier to get in and out of the jazz than my wife’s juke. Very spacious for its class.
Post by: Downsizer on December 23, 2020, 01:43:58 PM
Post by: ndavey1 on December 23, 2020, 02:16:38 PM
Is your Jazz the saloon or the Crosstar? Some reviews suggest the ride comfort of the Crosstar is softer and better than the Jazz saloon. What do you think - specially with your back problems.My jazz is the SR hatchback. By all accounts though, the Crossstar is a better ride over all. I would love a test drive of the Crossstar to compare actually.
Post by: Pine on December 23, 2020, 04:41:28 PM
Post by: Expatman on December 24, 2020, 06:12:49 PM
Page 636 of the on-line UK owners' manual (extract attached) lists both sizes. Confusing!That's interesting, at the bottom of the extract it says Crosstar has All Season Tyres.
Anyone with a Crosstar like to say what tyres their Crosstar was supplied with?
Post by: Steve_M on December 24, 2020, 08:36:36 PM
Post by: Expatman on December 24, 2020, 10:15:23 PM
I would still like to know what make and type of tyres are generally supplied by Honda for the Jazz and Crosstar, are they a known premium brand or some other brand?
Post by: Jocko on December 24, 2020, 10:54:02 PM
Post by: John Ratsey on December 25, 2020, 08:55:20 AM
Post by: Expatman on December 25, 2020, 10:54:47 PM
Sadly I think this is a deal breaker for me.
Post by: Jocko on December 26, 2020, 10:31:03 AM
Post by: Westy36 on December 26, 2020, 11:16:12 AM
it seems that Honda has decided that drivers of their cars don’t deserve the best tyres.
:D ;D Priceless!
Post by: ndavey1 on December 26, 2020, 11:19:29 AM
Post by: madasafish on December 26, 2020, 11:32:43 AM
So availability changes with growing use of a tyre size and more cars using it on the road.
Post by: Expatman on December 26, 2020, 01:37:01 PM
I suppose the point I was making is why didn't Honda consider tyre availability when speccing the wheel/tyres for the Crosstar?
Post by: madasafish on December 26, 2020, 02:26:26 PM
All makers do the same...Top of the range model gets fancy big wheels.
Post by: ndavey1 on December 26, 2020, 09:49:56 PM
I suppose the point I was making is why didn't Honda consider tyre availability when speccing the wheel/tyres for the Crosstar?Simply because for most people tyres don’t come into any decision when buying a car. I’ve never known anyone consider tyres like they do features of the car. This is why tyre type isn’t listed when making a purchase online, but mpg and automatic headlights etc are. As long as tyres pass an mot, I and many others are happy, and that’s as much thought we give them!
Post by: Expatman on December 26, 2020, 10:24:17 PM
I understand, but don’t you think that perhaps tyres should be a higher priority consideration? Car makers make big claims about included safety features - lane departure, auto braking etc. but the tyres - which are your only contact with the road - are not mentioned. In temperatures below 7 degrees conventional summer tyres grip quickly degrades and in snow or icy conditions are verging on dangerous. To counteract that first came winter tyres which you changed for summer tyres in the autumn and back to summer tyres in the spring. Then All Weather Tyres were introduced which while not being quite as good as summer tyres in the Summer or Winter tyres in the Winter are a pretty good compromise offering almost the best of both worlds. Michelin CrossClimates were the first then followed by all season tyres from most premium tyre manufacturers. If these tyres are not available for the car you are choosing then I do think that is a safety negative. Maybe not something at the front of your mind when choosing a car to buy but certainly a consideration - don’t you think?I suppose the point I was making is why didn't Honda consider tyre availability when speccing the wheel/tyres for the Crosstar?Simply because for most people tyres don’t come into any decision when buying a car. I’ve never known anyone consider tyres like they do features of the car. This is why tyre type isn’t listed when making a purchase online, but mpg and automatic headlights etc are. As long as tyres pass an mot, I and many others are happy, and that’s as much thought we give them!
Post by: ndavey1 on December 27, 2020, 09:07:29 AM
I do understand what your saying, and your argument is quite logical. I’m sure there will be more tyre choice available for the jazz based on demand, like with any other product. For me personally I can’t see it ever being an issue. I’ve driven in very icy conditions in Leeds and very hot weather down south, never once changing tyre type and having a problem. In fact for most of my driving life I have used cheapest part worn tyres and never experienced issues.I understand, but don’t you think that perhaps tyres should be a higher priority consideration? Car makers make big claims about included safety features - lane departure, auto braking etc. but the tyres - which are your only contact with the road - are not mentioned. In temperatures below 7 degrees conventional summer tyres grip quickly degrades and in snow or icy conditions are verging on dangerous. To counteract that first came winter tyres which you changed for summer tyres in the autumn and back to summer tyres in the spring. Then All Weather Tyres were introduced which while not being quite as good as summer tyres in the Summer or Winter tyres in the Winter are a pretty good compromise offering almost the best of both worlds. Michelin CrossClimates were the first then followed by all season tyres from most premium tyre manufacturers. If these tyres are not available for the car you are choosing then I do think that is a safety negative. Maybe not something at the front of your mind when choosing a car to buy but certainly a consideration - don’t you think?I suppose the point I was making is why didn't Honda consider tyre availability when speccing the wheel/tyres for the Crosstar?Simply because for most people tyres don’t come into any decision when buying a car. I’ve never known anyone consider tyres like they do features of the car. This is why tyre type isn’t listed when making a purchase online, but mpg and automatic headlights etc are. As long as tyres pass an mot, I and many others are happy, and that’s as much thought we give them!
The amount of car you get for your money with the Jazz is worth it, and as I said, with demand I’m sure fairly soon a wider range will be available.
Post by: Jocko on December 27, 2020, 09:54:32 AM
Post by: Hobo on December 27, 2020, 10:41:39 AM
I too have used summer tyres for my entire 55 years motoring life and have never had the least trouble, even in sub zero conditions.
Same here, many years ago I lived in the Lake District and use to help out in mountain rescue, I have driven in all sorts of winter conditions only occasionally needing chains and never had a problem or the need to change my tyres.
Post by: culzean on December 27, 2020, 11:21:39 AM
I too have used summer tyres for my entire 55 years motoring life and have never had the least trouble, even in sub zero conditions.
Same here, many years ago I lived in the Lake District and use to help out in mountain rescue, I have driven in all sorts of winter conditions only occasionally needing chains and never had a problem or the need to change my tyres.
Having driven wifes MK2 Jazz on heavy snow in Shropshire hills during 'The Beast from the East' the Nokian Winter tyres ( full fat winter tyres not all season ) were a revelation. The only other vehicles we saw were Defenders and Tractors, we did pass a few 4x4 with clueless drivers and summer tyres sitting their with the wheels spinning, never had a worry about getting stuck , even on steeper bits. Braking is much more secure with winters, with summers you may with luck get up the hills but getting down a slope safely is another matter. Steering / lateral stability is another important difference, the difference between steering safely or ending up in the hedge or ditch.
Post by: ndavey1 on December 27, 2020, 01:07:32 PM
Post by: culzean on December 27, 2020, 01:21:50 PM
Great comparison videos. I might need to look into all season tyres a bit more if bad weather expected. I stand corrected! (said the man in the orthopaedic shoes!)
I used to believe I could get anywhere on summer tyres, including putting a bag of sand or slab into the boot of a rear wheel drive car, but winter tyres are much easier.... the good news is that having steel rims with winters on protects your alloys from kerbing and winter corrosion, as well as saving wear on your summer tyres. mytyres have some decent wheel / rim offers. Winter tyres are much better on mud as well, they have the Mud and Snow logo on them. https://www.oponeo.co.uk/blog/winter-tyres-don-t-rely-on-the-m-s-mark
As the article says some mud tyres are not too good in snow but snow tyres will be better than normal tyres in mud. Our Nokians have the snowflake logo as well as M+S.
The Jazz is already pretty good on snow, with front wheel drive, fairly narrow tyres, fairly low power lower down revs, and the fuel tank near the front of car to add weight to driving wheels. With winter tyres believe me it is pretty unstoppable ( ground clearance permitting ). The thing that convinced me was the twisty steep road off our estate and early starts ( about 4-15 am some days ) - it was a nightmare with normal tyres.. with winters I could have an extra cup of tea and if any cars were stuck I just drove around them.
Post by: Expatman on December 27, 2020, 02:07:19 PM
The lack of choice of tyres for the Crosstar must inevitably be a real consideration in the choice of vehicle. It's everyone's personal choice of course but for me it does make the decision more difficult.
Just a thought, what about changing tyre size from 185/60 R16 to 195/55 R16. Rim size is okay and circumference is only just over 1% difference. Much bigger choice of tyres in 195/55 R16 size.
Post by: Jocko on December 27, 2020, 03:39:37 PM
Post by: John Ratsey on December 27, 2020, 03:53:48 PM
The Jazz is already pretty good on snow, with front wheel drive, fairly narrow tyres, fairly low power lower down revs, and the fuel tank near the front of car to add weight to driving wheels.The Mk. 4 Jazz, however, has a load of low revs torque so it probably needs a very light touch on the accelerator.
Just a thought, what about changing tyre size from 185/60 R16 to 195/55 R16. Rim size is okay and circumference is only just over 1% difference. Much bigger choice of tyres in 195/55 R16 size.That's the possibility I mentioned near the start of this thread. The 195 tyres are slightly wider so there are possible clearance issues when at full lock. However, given that the Honda driver's handbook discusses using chains, I suspect there is sufficient clearance. It might be necessary to notify the insurance company as the tyres aren't the manufacturer's recommended size.
Post by: Expatman on December 27, 2020, 04:29:20 PM
I just changed to all-weather tyres all round and my mpg has dived since doing so. Today I had a long trip, for me, of 118 miles (mainly motorway with the rest country roads). The temperature was hovering around zero degrees, the coldest since fitting them, and my instantaneous mpg, as shown on my ScanGauge E, was terrible. I know cold weather depresses mpg but today was much worse. I have used the ScanGauge for a few years now so know what it is showing meWhich All Season Tyres? I run Goodyear Vector 4Seasons and have found no difference with the summer tyres I had on previously. MPG exactly the same, however, you need to check the efficiency rating and reviews as some all season tyres are less efficient than others.
Post by: embee on December 27, 2020, 06:15:17 PM
I had a set of Goodyear UG full winter tyres (at the recommendation of local folk) on my Yaris, and they were superb in cold/wet/snow conditions. They were much better on ice than summer tyres, but nothing is magic on ice short of studs (illegal in many cases). I found very little difference in fuel economy against the summer tyres. The main thing to remember is that once weather warms up (7C is the rule-of-thumb guide) the winter tyres are often considerably worse for grip than summer tyres, so it's essential to switch back.
All season tyres are a more recent development and probably an excellent solution for most folk. Like many things, the devil is in the detail, and not all round black things are equal (see "Pontefract cake" ;D ). The group test reviews are always a good guide. Goodyear do seem to know how to make good cold weather tyres.
Post by: Jocko on December 27, 2020, 07:33:20 PM
Which All Season Tyres? I run Goodyear Vector 4Seasons and have found no difference with the summer tyres I had on previously.Yes, those are Rating C, the same as the summer tyres I replaced. I fitted Yokohama Bluearth 4S which are Rating E.
Post by: Expatman on December 27, 2020, 10:12:02 PM
Sadly you have the answer in that the Yokohama are much less efficient than Goodyear, Michelin or Continental. What size did you fit and was it the Honda recommended size for your Jazz? This actually highlights the problem I have been going on about - the choice of tyres is very limited and excludes most of the premium best performing tyres in terms of grip in different conditions and economy.Which All Season Tyres? I run Goodyear Vector 4Seasons and have found no difference with the summer tyres I had on previously.Yes, those are Rating C, the same as the summer tyres I replaced. I fitted Yokohama Bluearth 4S which are Rating E.
Hopefully the premium makers will expand their range to include the Jazz size but I fear the volume is likely to be so small that it won’t be economically viable for them to do so. In which case you are stuck with what is available - and that’s not the best!
Post by: culzean on December 27, 2020, 10:28:26 PM
Sadly you have the answer in that the Yokohama are much less efficient than Goodyear, Michelin or Continental. What size did you fit and was it the Honda recommended size for your Jazz? This actually highlights the problem I have been going on about - the choice of tyres is very limited and excludes most of the premium best performing tyres in terms of grip in different conditions and economy.Which All Season Tyres? I run Goodyear Vector 4Seasons and have found no difference with the summer tyres I had on previously.Yes, those are Rating C, the same as the summer tyres I replaced. I fitted Yokohama Bluearth 4S which are Rating E.
Hopefully the premium makers will expand their range to include the Jazz size but I fear the volume is likely to be so small that it won’t be economically viable for them to do so. In which case you are stuck with what is available - and that’s not the best!
One reason I ditched the 16" wheels on wifes Jazz and fitted 15", was much better choice of tyres and another plus is an improved ride ( and quieter ). Another plus is that tyres are 40 to 50% cheaper.
Post by: Jocko on December 28, 2020, 07:16:28 AM
Sadly you have the answer in that the Yokohama are much less efficient than Goodyear, Michelin or Continental. What size did you fit and was it the Honda recommended size for your Jazz?I always fit the recommended tyre size, but I could have fitted any of the tyres you mentioned. However, the dealer had the Yokohamas on special offer. I was replacing Yokohama Bluearth's that I had nothing but praise for, so I fitted the Bluearths without a moment's hesitation.
Post by: Expatman on December 28, 2020, 12:30:18 PM
Did anything else change at the same time?
Post by: Expatman on December 28, 2020, 12:40:24 PM
I can understand your change to 15" to get a better choice of tyres but I assume you went with a higher profile tyre to maintain the circumference, the higher profile will have made a big difference to comfort and noise. It is a balance however and as the Crosstar already has 60 profile tyres a drop to 15" wheels would mean you would have to fit at least 65 profile tyres to maintain the circumference. 65 profile tyres are tall enough to affect handling so maybe not such a simple change.Sadly you have the answer in that the Yokohama are much less efficient than Goodyear, Michelin or Continental. What size did you fit and was it the Honda recommended size for your Jazz? This actually highlights the problem I have been going on about - the choice of tyres is very limited and excludes most of the premium best performing tyres in terms of grip in different conditions and economy.Which All Season Tyres? I run Goodyear Vector 4Seasons and have found no difference with the summer tyres I had on previously.Yes, those are Rating C, the same as the summer tyres I replaced. I fitted Yokohama Bluearth 4S which are Rating E.
Hopefully the premium makers will expand their range to include the Jazz size but I fear the volume is likely to be so small that it won’t be economically viable for them to do so. In which case you are stuck with what is available - and that’s not the best!
One reason I ditched the 16" wheels on wifes Jazz and fitted 15", was much better choice of tyres and another plus is an improved ride ( and quieter ). Another plus is that tyres are 40 to 50% cheaper.
Post by: culzean on December 28, 2020, 12:52:05 PM
One reason I ditched the 16" wheels on wifes Jazz and fitted 15", was much better choice of tyres and another plus is an improved ride ( and quieter ). Another plus is that tyres are 40 to 50% cheaper.I can understand your change to 15" to get a better choice of tyres but I assume you went with a higher profile tyre to maintain the circumference, the higher profile will have made a big difference to comfort and noise. It is a balance however and as the Crosstar already has 60 profile tyres a drop to 15" wheels would mean you would have to fit at least 65 profile tyres to maintain the circumference. 65 profile tyres are tall enough to affect handling so maybe not such a simple change.
No discernable affect on handling with 15", swapped 185/55R16 for 175/65R15. More comfort and cheaper tyres, its a win win really. The lower profile 185 tyres on a Jazz are more of a cosmetic thing than anything. With the higher profile of the 175 tyres allowing more 'squash' in the tyres the amount of rubber on the road is probably same with both sizes. Not so worried about potholes now as there is more space between rim and road to absorb any impact.
Post by: Jocko on December 28, 2020, 01:27:08 PM
But if you replaced on a like for like basis I don't understand why the economy suffered?I swapped from Bluearth summer tyres to Bluearth all-weather tyres.
Did anything else change at the same time?
Post by: Expatman on December 28, 2020, 01:48:17 PM
Post by: Downsizer on December 28, 2020, 01:48:39 PM
With the higher profile of the 175 tyres allowing more 'squash' in the tyres the amount of rubber on the road is probably same with both sizes.I think you’re right about the area of contact rubber being the same, but not because of increased squashiness. The tyre pressure and the loading on each tyre must determine the amount of contact. lbs loading divided by lbs/sq in = sq ins contact. So a narrower tyre at the same pressure will have a longer bit in contact with the road. Or am I oversimplifying?
Post by: Jocko on December 28, 2020, 01:59:17 PM
Post by: Expatman on December 28, 2020, 02:01:58 PM
5% would make any difference to roadholding I doubt - unless you drive on the edge of course!! Sidewall height is likely to make a bigger difference to roadholding and feel but again in normal driving probably not significant.
Post by: Expatman on December 28, 2020, 03:14:00 PM
Post by: Jocko on December 28, 2020, 03:26:41 PM
Post by: Expatman on December 28, 2020, 04:24:55 PM
Some cars, mine, for instance, can be purchased with more than one wheel size and tyre sizes. Provided the tyres/wheels fitted are specified for the car then there is no need to inform the insurers.Absolutely true. I also run my car on a different size tyre than normally supplied as OEM but as it is a specified size by the manufacturer there are no insurance implications.
I guess if I was to change the tyre size on a Crosstar from 185/60 R16 to 195/55 R16 then I would have to inform insurance company because it is not a specified size for the Crosstar.
Post by: DAN@ADRIAN FLUX on January 06, 2021, 08:16:02 PM
If anyone does ever have any issues with insurance for the fitment of all season or winter tyres then please feel free to drop me a line.
Regards,
Dan.
Post by: Expatman on January 06, 2021, 11:07:49 PM
Honda(UK) replied that they would investigate the situation and get back to me. They did, but just to confirm the tyre size and explain that the Crosstar size was to provide the correct comfort and technical requirements of the Crosstar. They would not address the tyre availability situation (or lack of availability).
So there you have it - buy a Crosstar and accept your choice of tyres is so severely limited there is no choice. Incidentally I also contacted a UK wide tyre supplier to see if they had a solution. They not only told me there were few to no tyres available but told me that if I ever had a serious puncture needing a new tyre I could be waiting some time before they could source one!
You have been warned. I am thinking I should write to every car magazine and ask them to warn their readers of this situation. perhaps Martin Lewis as well.
Post by: richardfrost on January 07, 2021, 03:11:30 AM
Post by: Expatman on January 07, 2021, 09:45:44 AM
How about you try contacting a local tyre specialist? This tyre size sounds like the same as was on my Jazz Mk2 EX and I never had any difficulty getting tyres, winter or regular, for it. Yes, the more well known brands didn’t do that size but other European brands were a available.I did contact a major tyre supplier who confirmed the scarcity of quality tyres in the 185/60 R16 size. Local Honda dealer was also dismayed when he checked the situation as well. My warning is that your choice of tyres is critically restricted for the Crosstar, it's up to potential customers whether they think it's important. Personally I do.
Post by: culzean on January 07, 2021, 09:58:59 AM
How about you try contacting a local tyre specialist? This tyre size sounds like the same as was on my Jazz Mk2 EX and I never had any difficulty getting tyres, winter or regular, for it. Yes, the more well known brands didn’t do that size but other European brands were a available.I did contact a major tyre supplier who confirmed the scarcity of quality tyres in the 185/60 R16 size. Local Honda dealer was also dismayed when he checked the situation as well. My warning is that your choice of tyres is critically restricted for the Crosstar, it's up to potential customers whether they think it's important. Personally I do.
My mate bought a Nissan Qashqai about 10 years ago, see the look on his face when he came to replace tyres, they were a funny size as well and he was looking at nearly £800 for 4 tyres, ( about £180 a corner plus fitting ) - he did get tyres for about £120 plus fitting eventually but I don't know what make or quality they were...
I found it cost effective to fit 15" alloys to Wifes Jazz Mk2, with the money we saved not having the 16" diamond cut OEM alloys refurbished due to white worm ( about £90 each ) and cost of new 16" funny sized tyres (185/55R16) at about £85+ each.. I got new 15" Rial alloys for £65 each and new Avons for £55 each. Next time it needs new shoes they will be 2/3 price and more choice - and the ride is smoother and quieter on 15"
Post by: culzean on January 07, 2021, 10:09:03 AM
Some cars, mine, for instance, can be purchased with more than one wheel size and tyre sizes. Provided the tyres/wheels fitted are specified for the car then there is no need to inform the insurers.
Quite right - the Jazz mk1 and 2 can either have 185/55R16 or 175/65R15 ( see tyre homolgation sticker on drivers door pillar ). As long as ET ( offset from hub face to centre of rim ) is the same ( IIRC 45mm ) then not a problem.
Post by: Downsizer on January 07, 2021, 10:11:00 AM
Post by: Westy36 on January 07, 2021, 10:11:14 AM
Post by: Expatman on January 07, 2021, 01:32:47 PM
My local dealer is offering Falken, Toyo and Bridgestone in this size. If demand rises, no doubt other makers will respond.Precisely my point, economy summer tyres with less than excellent ratings, where are the top rated Michelin, Goodyear, Continental etc. tyres? Where are top rated All Season tyres?
As I said if you're happy with limited choice of secondary tyres then that's fine. Personally I'm not.
Incidentally Honda have not certified any other tyre size for the Crosstar, I repeatedly asked them to consider alternative sizes without success.
Post by: jazzaro on January 07, 2021, 02:45:32 PM
From what I have read the vehicle weight and the tyre pressure determine the contact patch with very little input from diameter, width or ratio. Maybe jazzaro can bring some of his expertise to the discussion.There are many parameters to be considered. Basically a tire is a spring, its stiffness depends by air pressure, ratio, carcass and steel belts. The lower is the ratio, the lower the sidewall will bend itself when you brake (weight "transfers" from the back to the front) and you rotate the steering wheel, and this helps the whole tire to keep its geometry. This means that handling will be more constant when weight and temperature change, and the car will be as more responsive as less comfy.
I have an EX, so 185/55 R16, and it's slighty stiffer than the 185/60R15. But it's also more reactive to steer, I can feel it driving fast in hill roads. In normal driving the only difference is confort in potholes.
About fuel economy, I can talk about two cars: with my old Renault, bought with 165/65 R15 and then switched to 185/60 R15, the difference was quite zero, 185 tire mileage was 0,1-0,2 liter per kilometer worst than 165. Mileage used to be worst with winter tires, with 165 and 185, more than 0,5 liters per kilometer, handling on dry and wet road was better with 185/60, while 165/65 were definetly better on snow.
About the current Jazz EX, 185/55 R16 only allowed (in Italy we cannot change tire size without the manufacturer permission), I earned 0,3 kilometers per liter switching from the OEM Bridgestone SP Sport to Continental Ecocontact6, and I lose more than half a kilometer per liter driving with winter tires, same size. So my personal law says that "size doesn't matters", or better, size matters less than the tread softness. But this is my own law, it cannot be a general law.
Post by: 123Drive! on January 07, 2021, 07:58:33 PM
Post by: Expatman on January 07, 2021, 10:23:59 PM
My ex pupil had a puncture on his Mazda2 and guess what, the tyre is 185 60 16! Not many choices even for Summer tyres, let alone All Seasons!
Exactly, there does seem to be a problem with far eastern cars using non standard tyres. You would have thought that as part of European homologation they would have considered adopting common European tyre sizes. In most cases they could easily spec a readily available tyre close to the original specification. Why not? ]
Post by: jazzaro on January 08, 2021, 08:39:10 AM
Exactly, there does seem to be a problem with far eastern cars using non standard tyres. You would have thought that as part of European homologation they would have considered adopting common European tyre sizes. In most cases they could easily spec a readily available tyre close to the original specification. Why not? ]Years ago I had the same problem with a Renault Clio, tire size 165/65R15. My uncle had same problem with a VW Polo, mounting a very very strange size, it's a common problem.
Post by: Expatman on January 08, 2021, 10:48:08 AM
It’s not like there aren’t any alternatives - the market is awash with small crossovers.
Post by: Jocko on January 08, 2021, 10:52:38 AM
Post by: Expatman on January 08, 2021, 12:04:15 PM
New Toyota Yaris crossover might be worth a look when it's released later this year as well.
Post by: Expatman on January 09, 2021, 03:25:36 PM
Post by: Kremmen on February 17, 2021, 03:58:33 AM
I didn't check the outside Crosstar demonstrator..
Post by: Kenneve on February 17, 2021, 09:45:28 AM
All my previous Jazz cars were supplied as standard without flaps, but were added by the dealer FOC to get my business.
Post by: alfaomega on February 26, 2021, 09:22:28 PM
Hi, did you change tyres for a specific problem or just because you didn't get along with the Bridgestone?From what I have read the vehicle weight and the tyre pressure determine the contact patch with very little input from diameter, width or ratio. Maybe jazzaro can bring some of his expertise to the discussion.There are many parameters to be considered. Basically a tire is a spring, its stiffness depends by air pressure, ratio, carcass and steel belts. The lower is the ratio, the lower the sidewall will bend itself when you brake (weight "transfers" from the back to the front) and you rotate the steering wheel, and this helps the whole tire to keep its geometry. This means that handling will be more constant when weight and temperature change, and the car will be as more responsive as less comfy.
I have an EX, so 185/55 R16, and it's slighty stiffer than the 185/60R15. But it's also more reactive to steer, I can feel it driving fast in hill roads. In normal driving the only difference is confort in potholes.
About fuel economy, I can talk about two cars: with my old Renault, bought with 165/65 R15 and then switched to 185/60 R15, the difference was quite zero, 185 tire mileage was 0,1-0,2 liter per kilometer worst than 165. Mileage used to be worst with winter tires, with 165 and 185, more than 0,5 liters per kilometer, handling on dry and wet road was better with 185/60, while 165/65 were definetly better on snow.
About the current Jazz EX, 185/55 R16 only allowed (in Italy we cannot change tire size without the manufacturer permission), I earned 0,3 kilometers per liter switching from the OEM Bridgestone SP Sport to Continental Ecocontact6, and I lose more than half a kilometer per liter driving with winter tires, same size. So my personal law says that "size doesn't matters", or better, size matters less than the tread softness. But this is my own law, it cannot be a general law.
Mine came with Yokohama tyres, not my favourite ones on paper but I haven't done lots of kms so I need more mileage to have a better opinion on them...
Inviato dal mio SM-G975F utilizzando Tapatalk
Post by: Expatman on February 26, 2021, 10:27:58 PM
Post by: alfaomega on March 01, 2021, 10:38:11 AM
How do you think 195/55 R16 would be different from 185/60 R16 in terms of economy, comfort, roadholding and cabin noise? Very little difference in sidewall height just 10mm wider tread.
Hi Expatman, pasting a reply from another thread
In my opinion you shouldn't mount 195/55 for a couple of reasons:
1) the rim is 6" wide, and 195 it's at the far end of its tolerance. You risk to have the tyre slipping out of the rim.
2) in some countries (like here in Italy) there aren't any other sizes that are allowed outside of 185/60R16. I know for sure because we bought a standard Jazz and my father-in-law bought the Crosstar so obviously i've seen both vehicle registration certificates. Each of one contains only the OEM size.
Just to be more complete: my Jazz EX vehicle registration certificate doesn't even contain the 15" option as you can see from the attached picture.
Post by: Expatman on March 01, 2021, 11:00:51 AM
Threads getting a bit confused but to be complete this is posted in both threads now!How do you think 195/55 R16 would be different from 185/60 R16 in terms of economy, comfort, roadholding and cabin noise? Very little difference in sidewall height just 10mm wider tread.
Hi Expatman, pasting a reply from another thread
In my opinion you shouldn't mount 195/55 for a couple of reasons:
1) the rim is 6" wide, and 195 it's at the far end of its tolerance. You risk to have the tyre slipping out of the rim.
2) in some countries (like here in Italy) there aren't any other sizes that are allowed outside of 185/60R16. I know for sure because we bought a standard Jazz and my father-in-law bought the Crosstar so obviously i've seen both vehicle registration certificates. Each of one contains only the OEM size.
Just to be more complete: my Jazz EX vehicle registration certificate doesn't even contain the 15" option as you can see from the attached picture.
Obviously you must comply with the laws where you live. However in the UK we can fit whatever tyres we like (within reason) providing you inform your insurance company.
One item where you are incorrect is on acceptable tyre widths for 6J rims. In fact a 6J x 16 rim is specified to accept tyres widths from 175 to 205, with the ideal tyre widths being 185 or 195. So fitting 195 width tyres is perfectly safe on 6J rims on the Crosstar. If you fit 195/55 R16 tyres then the difference in circumference etc is just 1.2% meaning that at a true speedo reading of 70 MPH you are actually doing 69.16 MPH - well within the accuracy of any car speedometer. The sidewall height is marginally less by 3.57mm and the tread width is greater by 10mm. The effect on drive for those difference is likely to be a small increase in road noise - but the actual tyre fitted is likely to have a much greater impact on noise. Perhaps a slightly firmer ride, but again the type of tyre fitted is likely to have a greater impact, and slightly higher fuel consumption (wider tread tyre) - again the spec of tyre is likely to have an impact here. Honda tend to fit eco tyres with harder compounds to reduce fuel consumption - which is great - but in colder or more inclement weather their performance levels will be reduced. In the UK where winter temperatures are frequently below 7 degrees C tyres with different compounds are being more widely used as specific Winter tyres or, increasingly commonly, All Season tyres such as Michelin CrossClimates, Goodyear All Seasons etc. The Falken AS210 (available in 185/60 R16) is an all weather tyre and is quite adequate but is not a top performer - higher noise, higher fuel consumption and lower grip levels in most cases than the leading tyres in its class. Have a look at AutoExpress All Season tyre tests.
So in the UK we have a choice which you don’t. It’s a pity Honda don’t spec alternative approved tyre sizes like their European competitors, so it’s up to us to investigate suitable alternatives and publish our findings on Forums like this!
Post by: alfaomega on March 03, 2021, 09:52:17 PM
Personally I prefer to have winter tyres and summer tyres. You still have the best of both worlds, without any meaningful disadvantage apart from visiting the tyre dealer twice a year.
Normally All Season tyres have mediocre performances and high fuel consumption figures.
Total mileage is done by the sum of both sets, so all good there.
Yes, you have to anticipate a larger initial expense.
My two cents
Inviato dal mio SM-G975F utilizzando Tapatalk
Post by: Expatman on March 03, 2021, 10:30:19 PM
Hi, you're right.
Personally I prefer to have winter tyres and summer tyres. You still have the best of both worlds, without any meaningful disadvantage apart from visiting the tyre dealer twice a year.
Normally All Season tyres have mediocre performances and high fuel consumption figures.
Total mileage is done by the sum of both sets, so all good there.
Yes, you have to anticipate a larger initial expense.
My two cents
Inviato dal mio SM-G975F utilizzando Tapatalk
You are quite correct that the ideal is to have 2 sets of tyres - 1 for summer and 1 for winter. I did that for 10 years but eventually decided that it was just too much hassle - I was also getting older!
Reviewing the new All Season tyres on the market there are now ones with excellent performance, might not quite match the best summer or winter tyres but are getting close. Economy is very little difference if you choose the right tyre. And that’s the problem with Honda in that they fit tyre sizes which are very rare in Europe and it is impossible to find top rated tyres in a size specified by Honda for the Crosstar. That is why I propose using 195/55 R16 tyres which are widely available from the top makers - Continental, Michelin, Goodyear etc.