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Honda Jazz Forums => Honda Jazz Mk3 2015 - 2020 => Topic started by: peteo48 on February 17, 2018, 11:53:45 AM

Title: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: peteo48 on February 17, 2018, 11:53:45 AM
I did find a thread on this but was advised to start a new one.

I am getting my 1.3 Mk3 SE CVT next Wednesday. I have a number of questions for my drive home with the new car.

1) Am I right in thinking that the auto idle stop (when in operation) stops the engine when you come to a halt at the lights with your foot on the footbrake and restarts the engine when you lift your foot off the brake?

2) At a longer stop - say a level crossing with 5 minutes at least before you can go - if you put the car in neutral, put the handbrake on and the auto idle stop cuts out the engine, how does it start again?

3) In question 2 above - would you be better to put the car in Park, turn off the engine, and start again?

All replies gratefully received. There does seem to be some debate out there!
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: JazzandJag on February 17, 2018, 03:31:03 PM
Hi Peteo

To answer your questions in order

1) Yes, exactly as described.

2) As soon as you place the selector into neutral the engine restarts anyway.

3) This would be the only way to keep the engine off in such  a scenario as in general the maximum time before the engine restarts itself seems to be around 3 minutes.

Whilst I find that the system operates well, it can take a little getting used to and whilst the engine restarts readily, there is inevitably a split second delay. If you want to make sure that you are ready to go instantly you can turn off this feature temporarily by pressing the "A" button next to the selector or by selecting "S" mode which disables the stop-start function. Maybe best to use the "A" button on your first drive so you will not be distracted by this feature until you have gained a little more experience with the CVT.

Anyway good luck and welcome to the CVT club. There is no going back from here.....!

Nigel
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: Jocko on February 17, 2018, 03:33:44 PM
There is no going back from here.....!
Why? Does the CVT not have reverse!  ;D
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: mikebore on February 17, 2018, 03:50:43 PM
The autostop feature can also be controlled by the amount of pressure you apply to the brake pedal.

You can stop the car without activating autostop by not pressing the pedal hard. Then when the car stops moving the display will say "Press pedal harder for autostop"

Similarly, if autostop is activated, you can release the pressure to start the engine without the car moving off.

All will become second nature after a few days.
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: andruec on February 17, 2018, 06:16:34 PM
2) As soon as you place the selector into neutral the engine restarts anyway.
Actually, no, it doesn't. It is however fairly pointless because if you then lift your foot off the brake pedal (after presumably applying the handbrake as you would in a manual) the engine will restart. The engine will also restart if you move the gear selector out of neutral even if you have the foot pedal pressed.

In my opinion this is poor design, especially since moving the gear lever out of neutral will restart the engine anyway. Why not allow the engine to remain off as long as the vehicle is in neutral and the handbrake applied? It basically means that the only way to make use of idle stop on the CVT version is to keep your foot on the brake pedal. I used to hate drivers that did that but, sadly, I have now become one of them. I applaud the idea of idle stop and unfortunately I'm prepared to shine my brake lights at the driver behind rather than waste fuel idling. If it's any consolation it appears that hardly anyone else bothers to take their foot off the foot brake anyway these days. If you can't take three red lights shining into your eyes for a minute or two you probably shouldn't be driving  :(

For what it's worth this rather silly situation appears to be common across all manufacturer's automatics that have idle stop. So I can only assume that there is a good reason for it but damned if I can see what that might be.
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: Jocko on February 17, 2018, 06:38:26 PM
If you can't take three red lights shining into your eyes for a minute or two you probably shouldn't be driving
Brake lights never bother me. It is just part of city driving.
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: culzean on February 17, 2018, 07:00:35 PM
If you can't take three red lights shining into your eyes for a minute or two you probably shouldn't be driving
Brake lights never bother me. It is just part of city driving.

They bother me, mainly because it is just another sign of how little many drivers care about other road users.
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: andruec on February 17, 2018, 07:16:44 PM
If you can't take three red lights shining into your eyes for a minute or two you probably shouldn't be driving
Brake lights never bother me. It is just part of city driving.

They bother me, mainly because it is just another sign of how little many drivers care about other road users.
I care about air quality and the scarcity of oil more ;)

Oh and I just hate the idea of wasting energy.
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: culzean on February 17, 2018, 07:28:05 PM
If you can't take three red lights shining into your eyes for a minute or two you probably shouldn't be driving
Brake lights never bother me. It is just part of city driving.

They bother me, mainly because it is just another sign of how little many drivers care about other road users.
I care about air quality and the scarcity of oil more ;)

Oh and I just hate the idea of wasting energy.

Put your handbrake on then.............
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: Kenneve on February 17, 2018, 09:04:31 PM
I would like to bet that it costs more in energy to power the brake lights and the starter motor, than can be saved using stop/start. :(
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: andruec on February 17, 2018, 09:17:48 PM
I would like to bet that it costs more in energy to power the brake lights and the starter motor, than can be saved using stop/start. :(
You'd probably lose that bet.

Well - I'm not sure about the brake lights but various motoring articles have suggested that the engine only has to be off for three seconds for it to be worthwhile. What a lot of people (like you presumably) who haven't experienced idle stop don't realise is how quickly the engine restarts. Forget what you might be used to with the engine turning over four or five times for a second. With idle stop it fires almost immediately. Mine restarts so quickly that it's already running before I've had time to move my foot from the brake to the accelerator. So it must be using very little power.

But it's not all about fuel savings (which most articles estimate at between 3% and 10%) but also about air quality. An idling car is generating pollution and whilst the restart generates a little burst of pollution it is offset by the amount saved by not running for several seconds.

Not all articles agree but most do. What I can say is that if I'm stationary for longer than idle stop will allow the engine to be off I can see the fuel consumption reported on the dash start to worsen within a few seconds of the engine restarting.

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/the_green_lantern/2008/05/is_an_idle_car_the_devils_workshop.html

"But he's slowly come around to buying it, in large part because of this field experiment by the Florida section of the American Society of Mechanical Engineers. The researchers concluded that restarting a six-cylinder engine—with the air conditioner switched on—uses as much gas as idling the same car for just six seconds."

And that doesn't sound like it was an idle-stop system. Just a normal engine being turned off then turned on (presumably turning over for longer than a proper idle-stop system would).
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: Jocko on February 17, 2018, 10:35:24 PM
I switch off my engine if I am going to be stopped at a known "long light", and I am in the belief that I only win if the engine is off for more than six seconds (no idle stop on my old Jazz).
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: andruec on February 18, 2018, 09:25:40 AM
I switch off my engine if I am going to be stopped at a known "long light", and I am in the belief that I only win if the engine is off for more than six seconds (no idle stop on my old Jazz).
I always try to manage my idle stop to never stop the engine for less than three seconds. Well actually I try (and usually succeed) not to actually stop at all. Good anticipation and traffic awareness means that unless I'm caught in really heavy traffic or at lights I can usually get by with creep.
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: peteo48 on February 18, 2018, 09:39:38 AM
Brake lights have never bothered me. They certainly don't "blind" me. I'm with Jocko on this one. I live in an urban environment (1.5 miles from Warrington town centre) and it's just part of urban driving.

Spoke to my brother yesterday who has had autos for years. What did he do at a long stop - eg a level crossing. Answer? There are no level crossings where he lives! He always uses foot on the brake at lights. He never ever uses neutral but, if there was a long stop, he would simply go into Park, handbrake on, engine off and start again.

It's an issue, occasionally, for me because there are more swing bridges than you could shake a stick at in Warrington and when one of those babies swings you are immobile for 10 minutes.
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: ColinS on February 18, 2018, 10:19:32 AM
I guess we are never going to agree on the use of brake lights but it is not all makes of car that make me lower my sun visor when stopped behind them, some don't seem to be as bright as others.  I have never been "blinded" but it can certainly be uncomfortable.

The real blame, from what I read in these forums, is on Honda who design a car which encourages drivers not to drive to the highway code.

Brake lights are to show the car behind that you are braking http://www.highwaycode.info/rule/114 (http://www.highwaycode.info/rule/114).  If you are concerned that a driver approaching you from behind is not aware that you have stopped, sure keep your foot on the brake pedal, but take it off once they have stopped and use your handbrake.  In extreme circumstances, like when I join the back of a queue on the motorway, I briefly use my hazard warning lights.
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: Jocko on February 18, 2018, 10:27:34 AM
The real blame, from what I read in these forums, is on Honda
Why they allow the brake lights to function with the ignition off baffles me. My Volvo was the same. Or is this new legislation?
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: culzean on February 18, 2018, 10:48:57 AM
The real blame, from what I read in these forums, is on Honda
Why they allow the brake lights to function with the ignition off baffles me. My Volvo was the same. Or is this new legislation?

My first Civic (1996) allowed the brake lights to work with ignition off,  I remember parking the car once and as luck would have it walked past back of car and noticed brake lights were on - I opened the car and dabbed and released the brake pedal and they went off (2 x 21 watt bulbs plus high-level brake light would have soon flattened the battery).  As soon as I got home I adjusted brake switch position so that the brake pedal had to be pushed a bit further to light up brake lights,  the switch as shipped was right on the limit and a gnat landing on brake pedal would make brake lights work.
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: ColinS on February 18, 2018, 10:52:56 AM
My old Triumph 2000 used to dim the brake lights when the side lights were on.  I wonder why that never caught on?
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: culzean on February 18, 2018, 10:57:08 AM
I guess we are never going to agree on the use of brake lights but it is not all makes of car that make me lower my sun visor when stopped behind them, some don't seem to be as bright as others.  I have never been "blinded" but it can certainly be uncomfortable.

The real blame, from what I read in these forums, is on Honda who design a car which encourages drivers not to drive to the highway code.

Brake lights are to show the car behind that you are braking http://www.highwaycode.info/rule/114 (http://www.highwaycode.info/rule/114).  If you are concerned that a driver approaching you from behind is not aware that you have stopped, sure keep your foot on the brake pedal, but take it off once they have stopped and use your handbrake.  In extreme circumstances, like when I join the back of a queue on the motorway, I briefly use my hazard warning lights.

If I am stopped and last in a queue I  keep my eyes on rear view mirror and if a vehicle seems to be approaching too fast I will flash brake lights.  I rarely sit for more than a very short time before using handbrake, as I have been comprehensively dazzled by others brake lights and have pulled visor down on occasions. 

IMHO it is just bad manners to leave brake lights dazzling others.
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: Jocko on February 18, 2018, 11:11:34 AM
My old Triumph 2000 used to dim the brake lights when the side lights were on.  I wonder why that never caught on?
My Austin 1800 was exactly the same. It must have been a BL thing.
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: peteo48 on February 18, 2018, 05:12:23 PM
Good link there Colin. It's pretty clear that you shouldn't keep the brake lights on. This means, presumably, that nearly every driver of an automatic vehicle is in breach of the highway code as it stands.
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: ColinS on February 18, 2018, 05:36:15 PM
Good link there Colin. It's pretty clear that you shouldn't keep the brake lights on. This means, presumably, that nearly every driver of an automatic vehicle is in breach of the highway code as it stands.
Thank you, but I don't think that is necessarily true.  I had an automatic back in the 80s and always dropped into neutral or park and applied the handbrake.  I think the tendency to use the foot brake on the CVT is because of the auto idle stop.  Users of those will put me right if I am wrong, I'm sure
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: Jocko on February 18, 2018, 06:06:47 PM
I never even stuck my automatics into Neutral. Just put the handbrake on. That was more than enough o hold them.
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: peteo48 on February 18, 2018, 06:11:02 PM
http://www.policeuk.com/forum/index.php?/topic/18000-sitting-in-traffic-with-brake-lights/

A bit of a debate here on whether sitting with your brake lights on is actually an offence - even the police can't seem to agree. Interestingly somebody mentions stop start systems and the fact that if, indeed, it is an offence, then all owners of auto idle stop systems are committing an offence because the auto idle stop system will not work unless you keep your foot on the footbrake.

Potentially there could be a massive mis-selling issue here if it is indeed the case that Honda and other manufacturers are selling you an inherently illegal system. What it needs is for a CVT driver to be banged up for this to happen.

So I come right back round to my original question. Let's say I want to use the auto idle stop system on my new CVT but I don't want to infringe the highway code OR potentially commit a traffic offence. I can't can I? Because if I stop at the lights, shift into neutral, the auto stop won't work. I would have to manually restart the engine.
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: guest1372 on February 18, 2018, 06:33:57 PM
Our family fleet Jaguar has an electronic handbrake, and it's so easy to use at the lights. It disengages itself when you accelerate away or select reverse. You can hold the switch to work against it but that is never really necessary.

I think proper off & idle off are two different modes, presumably fuel pressure and certain other things are maintained for instant restarting from idle. The push button start diesel Jaguar is almost instant from idle off, but can take a second from proper off, I guess that's down to glow plugs and temperatures.
--
TG
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: Jocko on February 18, 2018, 06:36:34 PM
I think that under the construction and use regulations brake lights are designed not to cause dazzle(!) and as such you could not be prosecuted for sitting with them on. If the position of the lights had been disturbed by accident damage or if you had fitted higher wattage bulbs or LED bulbs then the construction and use regs are no longer being met, so perhaps an offence is being committed.
Does anyone know anyone who has been reported for sitting with their brake lights on, or even been told off, by a police officer, for doing so?
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: ColinS on February 18, 2018, 06:47:45 PM
http://www.policeuk.com/forum/index.php?/topic/18000-sitting-in-traffic-with-brake-lights/
Interesting thread, thank you.
So I come right back round to my original question. Let's say I want to use the auto idle stop system on my new CVT but I don't want to infringe the highway code OR potentially commit a traffic offence. I can't can I? Because if I stop at the lights, shift into neutral, the auto stop won't work. I would have to manually restart the engine.
I too would like to know the definitive answer to this, purely out if interest.
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: andruec on February 18, 2018, 07:11:36 PM
The real blame, from what I read in these forums, is on Honda who design a car which encourages drivers not to drive to the highway code.
But it's not just Honda. It seems to be an industry standard :-/
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: peteo48 on February 18, 2018, 08:17:46 PM
Indeed it is. The only system that seems to avoid this would be on a hybrid where the petrol engine shuts off so you can go into neutral and take off again in pure electric mode.

But the auto idle stop on any automatic - not just a Honda or even just a CVT - works on the brake pedal. No foot on the footbrake, no auto idle stop. Or, to be more precise, the car will stop but not restart. The restart is triggered by removing your foot from the brake pedal.

I will be turning mine off and going into neutral and handbrake at traffic lights. I am not bothered by brake lights but clearly many people are and the highway code is crystal clear - you absolutely should not sit at a traffic light or, indeed, any other situation where the car is stopped for anything other than a brief period with your brake lights on.

Why can't car manufacturers devise a system that would allow the engine to be restarted by pressing the accelerator? Problem solved surely. You can then safely go into neutral at lights as you would do in a manual car.
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: andruec on February 18, 2018, 08:54:22 PM
Because if I stop at the lights, shift into neutral, the auto stop won't work. I would have to manually restart the engine.
Yes it will. As I have already pointed out selecting neutral does not restart the engine. Nor does it interfere with idle stop in any other way. The engine will restart perfectly well if you release the footbrake, move the gear selector to any other position or adjust the steering wheel.

I did actually email Honda about this shortly after I got the car however their response was pathetic. They just reiterated what the manual said about idle stop, completely failing to address my concerns.

But..as I noted - not applying the handbrake is endemic these days. Almost no-one bothers to take their foot off the foot brake when stationary. It's possible that the vast majority of drivers are now driving automatics but I doubt it. It's valid to complain about the design of idle stop but choosing not to avail yourself of it or suffering the hassle of manually switching off seems silly. One less set of brake lights in a traffic queue is not going to make any difference.

As for the law it makes sense to me. As another poster said: The rule is that you mustn't dazzle other users with your brake lights but if properly fitted brake lights are designed not to dazzle there is no problem. I can honestly say that brake lights in my eyes have never been anything other than a minor irritation. Anyone being genuinely dazzled is either behind a car with defective lights or needs to see an optician.
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: John Ratsey on February 18, 2018, 09:12:15 PM
My fix would be to fit a rear sensor which detects any approaching vehicle. Then, after, say, 5 seconds of the brake lights being on, they would be turned off unless an approaching vehicle is detected. After that vehicle has stopped then the brake lights would be turned off again. Suitable hardware is already fitted to look forward and check for approaching objects.
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: Dayjo on February 18, 2018, 09:19:40 PM
Over many years. I was thinking, even more simple. A 10 second timer, just to turn off the brake lights.......
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: Jocko on February 18, 2018, 09:58:36 PM
Rule 114 of the Highway Code says you must not "use any lights in a way which would dazzle or cause discomfort to other road users, including pedestrians, cyclists and horse riders" but I think, as this is enshrined in law (RVLR reg 27), it refers to headlights, fog lights etc. If they were talking about brake lights then they would be specified, as are rear fog lamps and reversing lamps. Not just lumped in under Item 11, Any other lamp.
I have never been dazzles by brake lights, not even the high level ones that stretch right across the top of the rear screen, and I have a cataract in one eye. Red light does not destroy night vision. Rhodopsin in the human rods is insensitive to the longer red wavelengths, so traditionally many people use red light to help preserve night vision. Red light only slowly depletes the rhodopsin stores in the rods, and instead is viewed by the red sensitive cone cells. That is the reason the bridge of a ship or the flight deck of an aircraft is illuminated by red lights.
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: peteo48 on February 18, 2018, 10:54:53 PM
Because if I stop at the lights, shift into neutral, the auto stop won't work. I would have to manually restart the engine.
Yes it will. As I have already pointed out selecting neutral does not restart the engine. Nor does it interfere with idle stop in any other way. The engine will restart perfectly well if you release the footbrake, move the gear selector to any other position or adjust the steering wheel.

I did actually email Honda about this shortly after I got the car however their response was pathetic. They just reiterated what the manual said about idle stop, completely failing to address my concerns.

But..as I noted - not applying the handbrake is endemic these days. Almost no-one bothers to take their foot off the foot brake when stationary. It's possible that the vast majority of drivers are now driving automatics but I doubt it. It's valid to complain about the design of idle stop but choosing not to avail yourself of it or suffering the hassle of manually switching off seems silly. One less set of brake lights in a traffic queue is not going to make any difference.

As for the law it makes sense to me. As another poster said: The rule is that you mustn't dazzle other users with your brake lights but if properly fitted brake lights are designed not to dazzle there is no problem. I can honestly say that brake lights in my eyes have never been anything other than a minor irritation. Anyone being genuinely dazzled is either behind a car with defective lights or needs to see an optician.

You are right - got myself a bit mixed up! As soon as you take your foot off the footbrake, once the engine has stopped, it will start again.

Auto idle stop works excellently on a manual because the engine restarts when you depress the clutch. At lights you can go into neutral, handbrake on and rest your legs. In an automatic you have to exercise firm downward pressure on the brake pedal to stop the thing from restarting thus tiring your right leg and annoying following vehicles.

They need a major rethink to allow you to go into neutral and take your foot off the brake, put the handbrake on and then restart the engine - perhaps with the accelerator.

Or maybe auto idle stop systems are a bad idea full stop - especially on automatics. No wonder many people turn them off.
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: Downsizer on February 18, 2018, 10:59:27 PM
22 posts in one thread in one day - 23 now.  Is this a record?  Perhaps because it's Sunday....
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: ColinS on February 19, 2018, 07:48:12 AM
Auto idle stop works excellently on a manual because the engine restarts when you depress the clutch. At lights you can go into neutral, handbrake on and rest your legs. In an automatic you have to exercise firm downward pressure on the brake pedal to stop the thing from restarting thus tiring your right leg and annoying following vehicles.

They need a major rethink to allow you to go into neutral and take your foot off the brake, put the handbrake on and then restart the engine - perhaps with the accelerator.
Absolutely agree!
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: andruec on February 19, 2018, 08:51:19 AM
They need a major rethink to allow you to go into neutral and take your foot off the brake, put the handbrake on and then restart the engine - perhaps with the accelerator.
I'd like it if they 'allowed' us to release the foot brake in neutral with the handbrake on. That's something I would certainly revert to doing.
Quote
Or maybe auto idle stop systems are a bad idea full stop - especially on automatics. No wonder many people turn them off.
No, I think they work fine for most people as is. As I've noted most people do not 'select neutral, engage the handbrake and release the foot brake'. Whether they are driving automatics or manuals I don't know but it is normal for vehicles of all types these days to sit at a traffic light with their brake lights glowing. Drivers doing 'the right thing' are very much in the minority these days.

What intrigues me is why Honda in particular have implemented I/S this way for their automatics. Their system obviously can react to gear selection to restart the engine so all it would take would be for an extra bit of logic that said 'don't restart if in neutral'. One explanation I can think of is that they want to discourage automatic drivers from exiting the vehicle unless it's in park but that's tenuous.
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: peteo48 on February 20, 2018, 12:51:54 PM
Done my own opinion survey over the last few days!

1) Brother - BMW 4 series - never uses handbrake except in Park. At lights, always foot on the footbrake.
2) Friend - Mercedes Coupe of some sort - never uses handbrake but hates stop start and always turns it off.
3) Neighbour - Honda Jazz 1.3 EX CVT - not used handbrake "for years." Incidentally the trips he does are so short the auto idle stop hasn't worked once yet but he leaves it on.
4) Former work colleague - Honda Civic 1.8 auto (I assume CVT) - what's a handbrake lol!

Advice from dealer - don't use handbrake at all except when car parked up.

Looks like brake lights blinding people at the lights is here to stay. Most people seem to think the idea of going into neutral in an automatic is a bit eccentric. As does the American chap who has a YouTube Channel - Engineering Explained. 5 tips on driving automatics - tip 4 - don't use neutral at a stop light.
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: Jocko on February 20, 2018, 01:34:13 PM
25 years driving automatics and Neutral was only the space between Drive and Reverse. Started in Park, put it in Drive, drove to where I was going, stuck it in Park and switched off. I did use my handbrake at lights though, never ever had problems with creep.
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: andruec on February 20, 2018, 01:37:25 PM
And the Wikipedia article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parking_brake) seems - at a quick glance - not to mention any use other than when parking, emergencies, drifting and performing handbrake turns.

 :'(
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: Dayjo on February 20, 2018, 01:46:52 PM
Auto. Stopped. In gear. The car is trying to creep. Wasting fuel/ wearing whatever, "clutch", it is pushing against.

In neutral. All components are spinning freely. No friction........

Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: Jocko on February 20, 2018, 02:09:34 PM
Auto. Stopped. In gear. The car is trying to creep. Wasting fuel/ wearing whatever, "clutch", it is pushing against.

In neutral. All components are spinning freely. No friction........
The engine is using fuel but it is running at tickover speed. As for "clutch" this is just fluid being spun between vaned plates. At tickover only the input plate is turning, even less than in a gearbox in manual. You can spin it for ever and it won't wear.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5G2zQ_3xTc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5G2zQ_3xTc)

The lock up clutch on the Cavalier and Volvo S40 only came in at 50 mph. The Carlton didn't have one.
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: peteo48 on February 20, 2018, 03:00:48 PM

Just for info - the bit about leaving your car in drive at a stop light is about 7 minutes in.
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: ColinB on February 20, 2018, 04:07:37 PM
Advice from dealer - don't use handbrake at all except when car parked up.
Sounds astonishing to me. Any driving instructors on here care to comment on what is actually taught about use of the handbrake these days ?

I guess another factor here is you used to have to use the handbrake regularly for hill starts. Nowadays, with the prevalence of hill start assist, you don't need to so never get into that habit.
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: peteo48 on February 20, 2018, 04:46:01 PM
Advice from dealer - don't use handbrake at all except when car parked up.
Sounds astonishing to me. Any driving instructors on here care to comment on what is actually taught about use of the handbrake these days ?

I guess another factor here is you used to have to use the handbrake regularly for hill starts. Nowadays, with the prevalence of hill start assist, you don't need to so never get into that habit.

I'm pretty sure that, in a manual car, the instructions will be to use the handbrake and go into neutral. The spanner in the works here, it seems to me, is stop start systems which operate via the footbrake on most automatics. The engine cuts out when the car comes to a stop with your foot on the footbrake. As soon as you lift your foot off the footbrake, the engine will restart again. In short, if you want to use the stop start system in an automatic, you must use the footbrake at all times and keep the footbrake engaged or the car will simply start again.
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: peteo48 on February 20, 2018, 05:33:10 PM
http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/technology/stop-start

This is the VW system. You press the accelerator to restart the engine on a VW automatic. On a Honda, taking your foot off the brake is the method for restarting.

The VW system, or so it would seem, would allow you to hold the car on the handbrake rather than keeping the footbrake depressed.
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: mikebore on February 20, 2018, 05:49:59 PM
http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/technology/stop-start

This is the VW system. You press the accelerator to restart the engine on a VW automatic. On a Honda, taking your foot off the brake is the method for restarting.

The VW system, or so it would seem, would allow you to hold the car on the handbrake rather than keeping the footbrake depressed.

More delay than the Honda system where the engine has started by the time my foot has reached the accelerator pedal. Also the Honda system allows you to start the engine by reducing pressure on the brake, while still applying it.

Definitely prefer Honda's implementation.
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: peteo48 on February 20, 2018, 06:02:59 PM
I'll find out tomorrow when I pick up my CVT. From what you say Mike, presumably there is no way round, on the Honda system, the blinding of drivers behind with your brake lights if you use stop start?
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: mikebore on February 20, 2018, 06:07:30 PM
I'll find out tomorrow when I pick up my CVT. From what you say Mike, presumably there is no way round, on the Honda system, the blinding of drivers behind with your brake lights if you use stop start?

Seemingly not....I am in the group that accepts this as part of modern driving.
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: andruec on February 20, 2018, 07:15:58 PM
The VW system, or so it would seem, would allow you to hold the car on the handbrake rather than keeping the footbrake depressed.
The only problem I see with that is if you just want to creep forwards. At least with the Honda system you just release the pedal and it creeps and your foot can keep the pedal covered ready to stop again. With the VW system there could be a risk of over revving and rear-ending the vehicle in front and most drivers would have to move their foot from the accelerator back to the pedal to stop the vehicle.

Still - that seems to dispel my idea that it's a universal design resulting from a universal problem with automatics :-/
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: andruec on February 20, 2018, 07:16:50 PM
I'll find out tomorrow when I pick up my CVT. From what you say Mike, presumably there is no way round, on the Honda system, the blinding of drivers behind with your brake lights if you use stop start?
In my experience of rush-hour driving most of them deserve to be punished anyway  :P
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: culzean on February 20, 2018, 07:19:42 PM
I'll find out tomorrow when I pick up my CVT. From what you say Mike, presumably there is no way round, on the Honda system, the blinding of drivers behind with your brake lights if you use stop start?
In my experience of rush-hour driving most of them deserve to be punished anyway  :P

Really bad attitude alert  :o  :o

I was always taught to treat others as you would like to be treated.... (except BMW and Audi drivers)

Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: Dayjo on February 20, 2018, 07:44:00 PM
I tried, this morning. Held the brake pedal down, hard. The engine kept on running......

Seems, I've been driving correctly. And, stop start isn't fitted to my car!
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: Paulwhitt20 on February 20, 2018, 09:31:51 PM
To get the best out of idle stop and an e-cvt you need a hybrid such as in the Lexus CT or IS.

Why have Honda dropped hybrids in the U.K.? 

On another point my car does not have a "hand" brake but a foot operated parking brake, and yes unfortunately I sit at traffic lights with my foot on the brake.  Switching to neutral does not charge the battery if the engine is running.

Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: Jocko on February 20, 2018, 10:01:51 PM
Switching to neutral does not charge the battery if the engine is running.
Why not?
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: andruec on February 20, 2018, 10:12:00 PM
I'll find out tomorrow when I pick up my CVT. From what you say Mike, presumably there is no way round, on the Honda system, the blinding of drivers behind with your brake lights if you use stop start?
In my experience of rush-hour driving most of them deserve to be punished anyway  :P

Really bad attitude alert  :o  :o
Nah, showing respect to rush-hour drivers just makes you look weak. Especially when you're driving a Jazz. Other drivers probably think you're a retiree who shouldn't be on the road at that time anyway  :P
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: Paulwhitt20 on February 20, 2018, 10:13:02 PM
Switching to neutral does not charge the battery if the engine is running.
Why not?

It's complicated, something about the engine being decoupled from the electric motors in the Toyota Hybrid Synergy Drive.

Neutral gear (equivalent): Most jurisdictions require automotive transmissions to have a neutral gear that decouples the engine and transmission. The HSD "neutral gear" is achieved by turning the electric motors off. Under this condition, the planetary gear is stationary (if the vehicle wheels are not turning); if the vehicle wheels are turning, the ring gear will rotate, causing the sun gear to rotate as well (the engine inertia will keep the carrier gear stationary unless the speed is high), while MG1 is free to rotate while the batteries do not charge. The owners manual[22] warns that Neutral gear will eventually drain the battery, resulting in "unnecessary" engine power to recharge batteries; a discharged battery will render the vehicle inoperable.
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: Jocko on February 20, 2018, 10:16:19 PM
Right. Thought you were talking about a Jazz, not a Toyota.
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: andruec on February 20, 2018, 10:19:23 PM
Why have Honda dropped hybrids in the U.K.? 
From what I remember of the specs it wasn't a particularly exciting hybrid anyway. Lacklustre economy and emissions that were nothing special for its class. But I am hoping that it will make a return. Hopefully they are ironing the bugs out and improving the implementation. I'd switch to a hybrid Jazz if it was a decent implementation.
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Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: peteo48 on February 20, 2018, 10:24:27 PM
As I enter the band of brake light blinders from, about 1 pm tomorrow, after doing all the paperwork, at least road users can be assured that as a old codger I don't go out much and almost never at night ;D
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: Jocko on February 20, 2018, 10:29:58 PM
Personally, I cannot see the attraction of a Hybrid, unless it is a PHEV. Unless you want one to save the planet!
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: andruec on February 21, 2018, 09:05:27 AM
Personally, I cannot see the attraction of a Hybrid, unless it is a PHEV. Unless you want one to save the planet!
To be honest I just liked the dashboard on the Civic Hybrid I drove (https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=honda+civic+hybrid+2008+dashboard&rlz=1C1CHBF_en-GBGB704GB704&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi_5uqv0rbZAhULBMAKHeojDK4QsAQIKA&biw=1158&bih=589#imgdii=zWgH-Tr-W96qsM:&imgrc=cyy9uEn5HweZaM:). I loved the battery charge/state indicator. It created the impression at least that it was working with me - using the battery charge to supplement the ICE on gentle inclines, then charging back up on the way down. I'm still not sure if my driving style would allow it to function at its best but it would be fun to find out.

We shall see :)
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: mikebore on February 21, 2018, 09:18:09 AM
Personally, I cannot see the attraction of a Hybrid, unless it is a PHEV. Unless you want one to save the planet!

Hi torque from the electric motor at low speed gave the Hybrid Jazz the most lively (least un-lively  :D) acceleration of the Jazz family.
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: culzean on February 21, 2018, 10:56:47 AM
I'll find out tomorrow when I pick up my CVT. From what you say Mike, presumably there is no way round, on the Honda system, the blinding of drivers behind with your brake lights if you use stop start?
In my experience of rush-hour driving most of them deserve to be punished anyway  :P

Really bad attitude alert  :o  :o
Nah, showing respect to rush-hour drivers just makes you look weak. Especially when you're driving a Jazz. Other drivers probably think you're a retiree who shouldn't be on the road at that time anyway  :P

I have found over many years of driving that when you show some sympathy for other roads users it is contagious, when you let someone into traffic from a side road or some other courteous act they often do the same to others as you follow them.  This horrible 'dog-eat-dog' 'every man for themselves' attitude is getting worse on our roads, is adding to commuters frustrations and it is also contagious.  A little kindness and consideration goes a long way... as I said earlier treat others as you would like to be treated.

I make an exception for BMW and Audi drivers through - but even that could be learned behaviour because of the way they treat other road users (mostly with utter disdain).  I knew a bloke who had always had Jags and he thought it would be nice to have a BMW,  he did not keep it long because he noticed a massive increase in what he called 'road rage' by other drivers, who would not let him into traffic etc...
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: guest5079 on February 21, 2018, 12:05:50 PM
Yesterday, going to have the tracking checked, stopped at T junction where my road joins another. Opposite BMW reversing out of driveway into throat of junction so I stopped, as a pound to a penny he wasn't going to, and waited. He just reversed out into the junction looked at me as most BMW drivers look at the Jazz and drove off. No thank you  nuffin. Nothing to do with stop start as such but blame Culzean for his comment re BMW. Well I stopped and he started!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: Jocko on February 21, 2018, 01:44:46 PM
I never show any courtesy to BMW drivers. I have to admit it makes me as bad as they are, and I know they are not all as we see them. Still, I have been soured by experience!
Today there was a BMW pushing his out of a very tight side road on the right. As he needed both sides of the road clear to get out, he had to wait until I got past. There was a solitary vehicle coming from the other direction, so I slowed down slightly so he would have to wait on it too, but no, as soon as I passed he pulled straight out into the path of the approaching car. So it was really the other poor driver I inconvenienced.
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: culzean on February 21, 2018, 02:41:57 PM
As he needed both sides of the road clear to get out, he had to wait until I got past.

You were taking a big chance when dealing with a 'Bavarian Maniacs Wagon' - they say time, tide and BMW wait for no man. I have been very soured by watching antics of german staff car drivers, zooming from fast (sorry BMW lane) on motorways across all three lanes to get off at an exit is one of their tricks,  as is getting in wrong lane at island because it has shortest queue and then barging across to proper lane, I am still convinced many German car drivers badger their doctors to get disabled stickers as well, large german SUV seem so over-represented in disabled spots that it is either the german car seats that make people disabled or something fishy going on.
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: peteo48 on February 21, 2018, 04:42:07 PM
Got the new car home. Very pleased so far but, as with everything you buy these days, added complexity. Checked out the manual and the only way the auto idle stop system works on a Honda CVT is by keeping the footbrake pressed. If you want the auto idle stop to work there is no alternative. It is in the manual in black and white. There is not a mention of any duty of care to drivers queuing up behind you.

On the way to the dealers, I decided I would check out vehicles at lights. Best example, a CRV at a light in Stockton Heath just outside Warrington. Almost certainly an automatic because his lights were on until the traffic light changed. In all honesty I can't say I felt in the least bit uncomfortable with this but it was daylight. More annoying was a Nissan Micra later on at lights who kept putting her brake on and off - much more annoying.

I live in Warrington which has several swing bridges and these cause lengthy delays. Not only that you don't want to keep your foot on the brake for, say, 10 minutes in any event. Dealer suggests putting it in Park, engine off, and restart as normal so that is what I'll do.

Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: ColinS on February 21, 2018, 04:49:31 PM
You shouldn't get paranoid about this.  I know I said it dazzles me at times, but not all cars do and it is generally only at  night that I have a problem.

At the end of the day, you drive the car within it's own parameters and if that means the brake lights are on then so be it.

Life is too short to worry about things like this. Just enjoy your new car.
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: Downsizer on February 21, 2018, 10:39:16 PM
I live in Warrington which has several swing bridges and these cause lengthy delays. Not only that you don't want to keep your foot on the brake for, say, 10 minutes in any event. Dealer suggests putting it in Park, engine off, and restart as normal so that is what I'll do.
The engine would restart well before 10 mins to protect the battery, so it's much better all round to switch off at level crossings, swing bridges etc.
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: andruec on February 22, 2018, 08:49:12 AM
I live in Warrington which has several swing bridges and these cause lengthy delays. Not only that you don't want to keep your foot on the brake for, say, 10 minutes in any event. Dealer suggests putting it in Park, engine off, and restart as normal so that is what I'll do.
The engine would restart well before 10 mins to protect the battery, so it's much better all round to switch off at level crossings, swing bridges etc.
Although I was quite surprised last year at just how much 'stoppage' it could take before giving up. As noted I usually just avoid stopping anyway but last year a couple of times I had to drive to Cambridge for business and one of the meetings was scheduled for 9am  :o

That meant I experienced the horror of true congestion on the approach to the Black Cat roundabout. Amazingly the car managed to continue providing IS functionality all the way to the roundabout itself. I suppose that having already been driven for an hour meant the battery was well charged but still - an impressive feat I felt.

Thankfully for the second meeting we managed to persuade them to schedule it for 10am which was less hassle.
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: Jocko on February 23, 2018, 07:16:15 AM
Yesterday I drove over to the south side of Edinburgh, and then in and back out of the city centre, and was amazed and gratified to see how few of the Edinburgh drivers sat with their brakes on at traffic lights. About 80% put their handbrakes on. Mind you, being canny Scots they probably didn't want to wear the bulbs out.
Title: Re: Auto idle stop on CVT, neutral and other issues.
Post by: guest7504 on February 23, 2018, 11:02:07 AM
My old Triumph 2000 used to dim the brake lights when the side lights were on.  I wonder why that never caught on?
My Austin 1800 was exactly the same. It must have been a BL thing.
I think you're right, it was called rust, the earth returns were so poor that when you turned anything on the lights dimmed  ;D