Poll

I don't want a debate, but given Boris worrying the UK with a Labour.SNP pact to bring Scotland a second Independence referendum, how many of our English members would be happy to see a second referendum?

Yes, let Scotland decide.
10 (32.3%)
Yes, and good riddance.
3 (9.7%)
No.
18 (58.1%)

Total Members Voted: 29

Author Topic: Second referendum for Scotland  (Read 12122 times)

sparky Paul

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Re: Second referendum for Scotland
« Reply #135 on: December 30, 2019, 12:41:45 PM »
I too am not sure that rejoining the EU would be top priority for an independent Scotland,
Hmm, that doesn't really hold water. It seems a little trusting to pick and choose which of the SNP's pronouncements you would prefer to believe, eg that the grass would be greener outside the UK and that it is absolutely essential to leave but not that an independent Scotland would rejoin the EU. The thing that's changed since the last IndyRef (which was billed as "once in a generation") is the Brexit thing and that's being touted as the reason for needing a new referendum. Any reneging on a major stated driver for independence is likely to quickly sully the SNP's reputation.

I'm not saying that won't be one of their long term goals, but I suspect they will have their hands full with other things for some time.

Even though there still seems to be a solid majority of Scots in favour of EU membership, I don't think a quick return to the EU fold will be likely.

culzean

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Re: Second referendum for Scotland
« Reply #136 on: December 30, 2019, 01:29:40 PM »
Apart from being a little grumpy that a referendum involving less than 10% of the UK’s population might result in the break-up of the nation of which I am a citizen. But that’s another argument.

So Scotland has less than 10% of UK population so to get a majority in indyref the votes of less than 5% of UK voters could break up a 300 year union, democracy at its finest... ( not to be compared to UK Brexit referendum where just over 5% of the population of EU living in UK voted to leave,  but the EU is neither 300 years old or 'our country' ).
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

JimSh

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Re: Second referendum for Scotland
« Reply #137 on: December 30, 2019, 02:31:11 PM »

I  can’t speak for all of Scotland, only for myself but I would prefer to see Scotland as a small, friendly, outward -looking country as part of Europe than as part of a competitive, xenophobic UK.

Could it be that  you have been misled in the approach to the referendum and subsequently and that the EU is more open and democratic  than the UK system of government. Johnson and Cummings have ridden roughshod over British democracy in the last few weeks and will no doubt continue to do so now that they have been given carte blanche.
There are numerous advantages to remainining  in the EU.
 I don’t want to go over old ground but I asked in a previous thread if any body could provide any reasons to leave and got no real answer. Only that 17.4million people had voted for it.
Here are 98 reasons for staying.
https://smallbusinessprices.co.uk/remain-eu/
I would prefer the whole of the UK to remain in the EU but failing that I would prefer to live in a Scotland with a parliament in Scotland   and enjoy the freedom of movement, tariff –free trade, joint research, workers' rights, environmental protection, etc that the EU has to offer.

 
My personal feeling is that remaining/rejoining the EU is not high on the SNP list of priorities. It is just the excuse they need to push for a second referendum. Once we are out of the EU you may find that Scottish politicians are not so keen to rejoin as the make out now. And once the Scottish populace realise they are free of the EU's shackles, they may not wish to rejoin either.
If Scotland becomes an independent nation, then surely rejoining the EU should be put to the people of Scotland in a referendum (unless it is decided before hand in an independent Scotland general election).
It would be top of my list Jocko. I don't think Scotland has any aspirations to go it alone.

https://www.alynsmith.eu/_leave_a_light_on_for_scotland_alyn_urges_eu


Latest Edit Changed link to Alyn Smith's speech.Follow the hyperlink to the Twitter page and have a look at tweet someway down by "Names is for Tombstones Baby" which shows a  slightly longer version of video including the reaction of UKIP MEPs. to the speech.

Apologies if my reply overlaps others. I had started to reply before lunch.


I deeply sympathise with your aspirations. I fear realty may not be kind to you. I joke not about the importance of Scotland's geopolitical location to the maintenance of world peace.

Calling the United Kingdom Government "xenophobic" suggests the word has been misunderstood.

No misunderstanding. I don't think it's unfair to apply it to the Home Office.
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/editorials/theresa-may-hostile-environment-home-office-immigration-a8314836.html

EU democracy does not allow politicians to propose policy. It is the role of the unelected Commission to propose policy. The Commission is unaccountable to the people . That is why the European Union is considered undemocratic
https://europa.rs/images/publikacije/HTEUW_How_the_EU_Works.pdf

There was one overriding reason 17.4 million British people voted to leave the European Union which is exactly the same as that which the SNP purports for Scottish independence , as I understand it, in that they want the independence to govern themselves, even if they are worse off financially.

I don't know how you can claim to know what 17.4 million people were thinking when they voted.
Many may have wanted a much softer Brexit involving a Single Market and Customs Union or umpteen other variations.
Likewise I don't know how you can know what the SNP and other Scots not affiliated to SNP want from independence.

The statement that "Johnson and Cummings have ridden roughshod over British democracy in the last few weeks" is not born out by the result of  the General Election where the SNP have 48 seats with 3.9% of the national vote and the Liberal Democrats have 11 seats with 11.5% of the national vote.

They have ridden roughshod over any idea of a representative democracy by denying Parliament a proper scrutiny of the Withdrawal Bill pre election.

Some would argue that, like Sinn Fein, the SNP should not take up their seats in a United Kingdom Parliament at Westminster, whose influence over them they so oppose.

Over the last three years the SNP has been the  most effective opposition to the Government despite their lack of numbers and the contempt shown to them by the Government.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2019, 03:30:37 PM by JimSh »

JimSh

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Re: Second referendum for Scotland
« Reply #138 on: December 30, 2019, 03:08:54 PM »
So, in response to my slightly tongue-in-cheek question about "What's the game the Scottish politicians are playing?", I see several arguments in the responses (VMT).


I  can’t speak for all of Scotland, only for myself but I would prefer to see Scotland as a small, friendly, outward -looking country as part of Europe than as part of a competitive, xenophobic UK.
I'm sure it's not something that would bother many, but it still makes me sad to think that my children will not have the same freedom our generation had to live, work, or study anywhere in the EU they choose.
Now those are arguments I can agree with! But they are arguments against Brexit (and please let's not go there again), not in favour of independence. Some folks have already expressed doubt that the SNP would carry through the idea of rejoining, if that happened it would leave Scotland more isolated than ever and without those benefits.

So sorry, I still don't quite see the long game the politicians are playing.

Speaking for myself, I think, unlike Jocko and Sparky Paul, that joining/ rejoining the EU would be the major priority for an independent Scotland.
Opposing Brexit was the theme adopted by the SNP in the 2019 election. ie. They want to stay within the EU.
I don't see them wanting to go it alone. (Why should they?)
The SNP  has tried for the last three years to save the UK from itself. Now it is trying to protect Scotland.
(puts on tin hat).
At the moment they don't want a referendum -only the right to call one.

sparky Paul

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Re: Second referendum for Scotland
« Reply #139 on: December 30, 2019, 04:48:55 PM »
So Scotland has less than 10% of UK population so to get a majority in indyref the votes of less than 5% of UK voters could break up a 300 year union, democracy at its finest... (not to be compared to UK Brexit referendum where just over 5% of the population of EU living in UK voted to leave...

17.4m is actually less than 3.5% of the EU population, or about 4% of those eligible to vote, so the comparison is valid.

...but the EU is neither 300 years old or 'our country'  ).

I dare say there are a few Scot Nats who don't regard the UK as 'their country' either.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2019, 04:50:40 PM by sparky Paul »

guest4871

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Re: Second referendum for Scotland
« Reply #140 on: December 30, 2019, 05:33:28 PM »
So Scotland has less than 10% of UK population so to get a majority in indyref the votes of less than 5% of UK voters could break up a 300 year union, democracy at its finest... (not to be compared to UK Brexit referendum where just over 5% of the population of EU living in UK voted to leave...

17.4m is actually less than 3.5% of the EU population, or about 4% of those eligible to vote, so the comparison is valid.

...but the EU is neither 300 years old or 'our country'  ).

I dare say there are a few Scot Nats who don't regard the UK as 'their country' either.

I dare say there are quite a few people in the United Kingdom who have never heard of Scotland and, if they have, don't know where it is.

sparky Paul

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Re: Second referendum for Scotland
« Reply #141 on: December 30, 2019, 06:23:47 PM »
I dare say there are quite a few people in the United Kingdom who have never heard of Scotland and, if they have, don't know where it is.

...and likewise in the EU and the UK, but I don't see how it's relevant to comparing brexit with Scottish independence.

JimSh

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Re: Second referendum for Scotland
« Reply #142 on: December 30, 2019, 07:02:06 PM »

I dare say there are quite a few people in the United Kingdom who have never heard of Scotland and, if they have, don't know where it is.

All the more reason why rUK should have no say in determining whether Scotland is entitled to another independence referendum. ::)

guest4871

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Re: Second referendum for Scotland
« Reply #143 on: December 30, 2019, 07:21:13 PM »
I dare say there are quite a few people in the United Kingdom who have never heard of Scotland and, if they have, don't know where it is.

...and likewise in the EU and the UK, but I don't see how it's relevant to comparing brexit with Scottish independence.

Nor do I  ???

sparky Paul

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Re: Second referendum for Scotland
« Reply #144 on: December 30, 2019, 07:24:56 PM »
I dare say there are quite a few people in the United Kingdom who have never heard of Scotland and, if they have, don't know where it is.

...and likewise in the EU and the UK, but I don't see how it's relevant to comparing brexit with Scottish independence.

Nor do I  ???

Don't blame me, I didn't start it... I was answering someone else!  ;)

guest4871

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Re: Second referendum for Scotland
« Reply #145 on: December 30, 2019, 07:35:10 PM »

I dare say there are quite a few people in the United Kingdom who have never heard of Scotland and, if they have, don't know where it is.

All the more reason why rUK should have no say in determining whether Scotland is entitled to another independence referendum. ::)

Scotland is part of the United Kingdom. I tend to sympathise with the view expressed earlier that any referendum ought to be United Kingdom wide. It is a constitutional issue that affects the whole rather than just the part.

Scotland could have all the referenda it likes if/when Scotland ceded from the United Kingdom.

guest4871

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Re: Second referendum for Scotland
« Reply #146 on: December 30, 2019, 07:38:19 PM »
I dare say there are quite a few people in the United Kingdom who have never heard of Scotland and, if they have, don't know where it is.

...and likewise in the EU and the UK, but I don't see how it's relevant to comparing brexit with Scottish independence.

Nor do I  ???

Don't blame me, I didn't start it... I was answering someone else!  ;)

No blame meant. No blame attaches   :)

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