Clubjazz - Honda Jazz & HR-V Forums
Honda Jazz Forums => Honda Jazz Mk3 2015 - 2020 => Topic started by: fitisraeli on January 26, 2023, 09:58:23 AM
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About two months ago I bought a 4-year-old honda fit2019(jazz in israel) and since then I have always received a message on the dashboard that the stop&start system is not available plus a symbol of a battery with a diagonal line.
With the engine off I get 12-12.2 volts and while driving I get 14-14.2 volts. The battery is two and a half years old.
I read on the forum that explain how to charge the vehicle's battery while bypassing the s/s sensor.
I noticed that style chargers are usually recommended
CTEK stop/start. charger company.
My question is can one charger do the same job and help operate a stop and go system in the same way?
Does it matter at all with which charger you charge? Can I buy a portable charger? what should i check before i"M buying.
Thank you very much for any help
Examples of other charges:
Schumacher SC1280 15A 6V/12V Fully Automatic Battery Charger and Maintainer for Motorcycle, Power Sport, Marine, and Automotive Batteries
https://www.amazon.com/Schumacher-SC1280-Charger-Automotive-Batteries/dp/B0797KK3N2/ref=sr_1_7?c=ts&keywords=Battery%2BChargers&qid=1674726959&s=automotive&sr=1-7&ts_id=15707061&th=1
NOCO GENIUS2
https://www.amazon.com/NOCO-GENIUS2-Fully-Automatic-Temperature-Compensation/dp/B07W6B987F/ref=sr_1_19?c=ts&keywords=Battery+Chargers&qid=1674726406&s=automotive&sr=1-19&ts_id=15707061
aliexpress
https://he.aliexpress.com/item/32847142538.html?spm=a2g0o.detail.1000014.4.16f67febWXkWcK&gps-id=pcDetailBottomMoreOtherSeller&scm=1007.40000.317745.0&scm_id=1007.40000.317745.0&scm-url=1007.40000.317745.0&pvid=e7287533-5f66-4670-8c22-a440b92adffd&_t=gps-id:pcDetailBottomMoreOtherSeller,scm-url:1007.40000.317745.0,pvid:e7287533-5f66-4670-8c22-a440b92adffd,tpp_buckets:668%232846%238107%2347&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2265180546375%22%2C%22sceneId%22%3A%2230050%22%7D&pdp_npi=2%40dis%21ILS%21164.81%21126.9%21%21%21%21%21%40210312f816747266074674051e481d%2165180546375%21rec
Amazon Basics 8 Amp Battery Charger for 6V and 12V Batteries with Auto Start and Reverse Protection
https://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-Battery-Charter-12-Volt/dp/B07TZYB3PD/ref=sr_1_4?keywords=Battery%2BChargers%2Bamazon&qid=1674726660&s=automotive&sr=1-4&th=1
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I doubt there is anything wrong with your battery. I too get that message, and have done every winter I've had the car (8 so far). The car always starts and the start/stop system always comes back in the spring. The Honda system has a very long list of factors that will inhibit the system from working, and a combination of cold weather and shorter/fewer journeys in the winter is enough to persuade the system that the miniscule voltage drop means there's something wrong with the battery. There isn't. By all means charge it if you want, but it isn't necessary.
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I doubt there is anything wrong with your battery. I too get that message, and have done every winter I've had the car (8 so far). The car always starts and the start/stop system always comes back in the spring. The Honda system has a very long list of factors that will inhibit the system from working, and a combination of cold weather and shorter/fewer journeys in the winter is enough to persuade the system that the miniscule voltage drop means there's something wrong with the battery. There isn't. By all means charge it if you want, but it isn't necessary.
It's been a week with 25c outside. Do you think that any charger can fit from the list I brought?
or i need ctek CT5 START/STOP ?
txn
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Can't help you with choice of charger I'm afraid, I don't own or use one. All I can say is that I get the same symptoms as you and it's not a problem. You can always charge the battery by going for a long drive.
I notice from your original comment that the car is 4 years old but the battery's 2.5 years old, so the previous owner replaced the battery after only a year and a half. That's a very short life (I'm still on the original battery after 8 years), so why did they do that? It implies some sort of electrical problem that may have only been disguised, rather than fixed, by the battery change. And is the replacement (the one that's in the car now) a proper stop-start battery? See this:
https://www.rjbatt.com.au/stop-start-batteries
Something you might wish to try is to disconnect the negative battery terminal for a few minutes. This is supposed to reset the stop-start system.
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Perhaps the Stop-Start system wasn't working and the original battery was changed (rightly or wrongly) to sort the issue.
fitisraeli. what are the temperatures like in Israel at the moment? If it is like a UK summer then maybe the battery needs charged.
I use one of these.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0856FKYQD/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0856FKYQD/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
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Yep.
As noticed by ColinB, the battery you're using could be not the right one for a Jazz with s&s system. As far as I can know, this is the short list of EFB batteries fitting our Fit/Jazz and avaiable in the european market:
-Yuasa YBX7053
-Banner 55515
-MIDAC Itineris EFB JIS mod IT55J EFB
-Enduroline 048EFB
-FIAMM ECOFORCE AFB TRN45 12V 45AH 360A
The following batteries are also ok but can be found only in asean markets:
-Varta Silver Dynamic EFB N-55/80B24L
-Bosch ST Hightec EFB 70B24L (N55L)
The OEM battery for our Jazz is the Yuasa YBX7053.
The list is so short because the slot for the battery, is very small, only batteries with 238x128x227 mm can be inserted under the hood, and the battery should be a EFB type.
Using a non-EFB battery:
- the ECU will detect it and will disable the s&s function;
- the battery will last less time, since charge parameters are set for EFB batteries, not for simple lead-acid.
Recharging your battery, never bypass the sensor placed on the battery.
Bye
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Thank you very much everyone.
The BATTERY is not s\s
Install a B32 VARTA BLUE DYNAMIC CAR BATTERY 12V 45AH battery in the car (545156033)
I live in a very expensive country and a suitable battery will cost me about $240.
I'll probably give up on that. Does anyone know how much fuel is consumed per minute/hour when the engine is on without driving?
Thanks
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Does anyone know how much fuel is consumed per minute/hour when the engine is on without driving?
About 1 or 1,5liters per hour.
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Just a comment on the charging startegy. The monitor measures the current in vs the current out of the battery. You want to try to convince the electronics system that the battery is getting more in than out of the battery.
One way to attempt this is to discharge the battery a bit by connecting a load directly to the battery terminals, the monitoring system doesn't see this discharge. A suitable way is to wire up a spare bulb (a headlight bulb of 60/55W will drain around 5A using one filament, that would be ideal) and connect directly to the battery terminals (a suitable fuse is highly advisable). Leave it connected for an hour or so, draining 5Ah or around 10% of the battery. That's fine.
Then either put a charger on it connected to the MONITOR terminal so it sees the ingoing current, or if you are happy with the battery just start the engine and drive it for a decent distance.
The monitor thus sees charge going in but not going out so it "thinks" the battery is getting charged more than discharged and should be happy.
It's not a guaranteed method but can help. If the battery is tired anyway it probably won't help.
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(a suitable fuse is highly advisable)
A fuse only protects downstream of itself so a fuse in this case only protects the lightbulb. Stick one in line if you have one but don't worry if you haven't.
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Running with that logic, I think you might want to consider the battery itself (and the wire to the negative terminal) to be downstream objects worth protecting! And the wire 'downstream' of the positive terminal into the fuse is probably also worth protecting...
To spell out what embee was hinting at, actually running this experiment is somewhat dangerous. The terminals of a car battery are very close to each other, and if you start playing with some homegrown contraption made out of a lamp socket and some flying leads, you would need to be incredibly careful not to short out the battery terminals.
A typical car battery can probably supply 3-5 kilowatts, which will rapidly heat up whatever cable you're probably holding at the time. Easily hot enough to cause a nasty burn if you don't let go quickly enough. Probably a similar danger profile to grabbing a your kettle element with one hand while turning it on with the other.
See this youtube video at about the 2:55 mark:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpT0isuS-W8#t=175 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpT0isuS-W8#t=175)
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you would need to be incredibly careful not to short out the battery terminals.
If you were an absolute numpty. As an electrical engineer of fifty years, I would not waste time with a fuse for a light bulb. But there again, I would not have enough bare wire to stretch from the positive terminal to a vehicle earth. The battery is perfectly safe unless you are using jump leads or something similar to connect the bulb. I suppose someone stupid enough might. Wire able to be connected to a bulb holder would not be able to carry enough current to exceed the current the starter draws so the battery would be safe.
The best bet is not to do it at all unless you are half competant.
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My observations.
I don't know how you've tested your battery, but from your first post, an open circuit test with a digital voltmeter of 12-12.2V would indicate you have a cell down. Typically 12.6V to 12.8 V would be normal.
Jazzaro has posted a list of suitable battery replacements, with the Yuasa YBX7053 being the OEM standard.
It would seem that the battery you have fitted to your car is not to OEM specifications.
I have used the CTEK MXS5.0 battery conditioner for quite a few years on a mixture of battery technologies - standard calcium, EFB and AGM - and can thoroughly recommend it.
I'm with 'orangeTomato' with their comments - Please do not attempt to connect anything directly to the battery terminals in an attempt to 'fool' the battery monitoring system.
In simple terms, you do not mess around with D.C current and you also don't want to gamble with the possibility of generating sparks close to a battery that maybe releasing hydrogen...
Before I get shot down, my comments are based on many years of Instrument and Electrical design work with particular experience on hazardous areas - but not car design.
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....To spell out what embee was hinting at, actually running this experiment is somewhat dangerous. .....
Also do not put your poodle in the microwave to dry it .....
I do try to give folk the benefit of the doubt regarding competence, if you don't understand what you are doing then .... don't. That was why I suggested a fuse, personally when I've done that process I haven't fused it for the reasons Jocko suggests above, but as the saying goes, artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.
Warning, driving a car is dangerous, don't do it, people get killed and seriously injured (not always in that order).
I'm always torn between suggesting things which people can try in order to fix/investigate a problem while crediting them with some common sense, and just keeping quiet and let them struggle on. I guess there isn't a correct answer to than conundrum.
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The same thing occurred on my 69 plate Jazz which I picked up in 2021 (straight from the dealer as a 12 month old ex-demonstrator with the original OEM battery and 3,500 miles on the clock - so not messed around with to the best of my knowledge). I did lots of web research and have read more threads than I would care to mention. At first I found the whole thing frustrating and a bit worrying, but I soon discovered that this is a common issue for the Honda Jazz.
The stop/start seems to work for me only during Spring and Summer - I can never recall it working from late Autumn onwards when it gets colder. At the two last Honda Services (at two different Honda Dealers and both in December), I asked the service department advisor about this and on both occasions they said that it doesn't work when the battery is below a certain level of charge (my battery voltage was recorded as 12.3 and 12.6 on each occasion, which they said was normal).
However, please bear in mind that I don't possess the mechanical or electrical knowledge that other members above have so you may wish to take my experience with a pinch of salt. :D
Personally, I no longer worry about the issue - the car drives nicely and still returns a better mpg than my previous Mini Cooper Diesel. I also take some solace from Scotty Kilmer saying on his YouTube channel that the start-stop function isn't necessarily a good thing anyway in terms of additional wear & tear on the engine from constant stopping and starting.
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Auto Idle Stop on Jazz Ex I-VTEC CVT '67.
Not managed to fix it, still get A with line through and a battery symbol [+ -] when vehicle braked.
Other warnings correctly identify Low engine Temp and Air Con On.
Tried various solutions - Open & Close bonnet. Disconnect battery, wait a few minutes, reconnect, etc.
Even tried ChatGPG :-
"1. Start the engine and wait for the Auto Idle Stop indicator to come on.
2. Press the Auto Idle Stop button located on the dashboard to turn the feature off.
3. Once the feature is turned off, drive the car normally for at least 15 minutes.
4. After driving for 15 minutes, stop the car and turn off the engine.
5. Restart the engine and the Auto Idle Stop feature should be reset.
If the above steps do not work, you can try disconnecting the battery for a few minutes to reset the system."
Purchased a GYS Artic 4000 'smart charger' (Forum comments on my choice appreciated), the battery seems O.K.
Wondering if an earlier charge, with a "standard" charger direct onto a disconnected battery has upset the ECM?
Think I should have connected negative lead to L shaped metal termination of chasis -ve lead.
If so; how do I reboot the ECM?
Does ECM/PCM Idle Learn Procedure (extract below) from http://hondafitjazz.com/manual3/index.html
work on a Jazz Mk3?
"Make sure all electrical items (A/C, audio, lights, etc.) are off.
Turn the ignition switch to ON, and wait 2 seconds
Start the engine. Hold the engine speed at 3,000 rpm without load (A/T in P or N) until the radiator fan comes on, or until the engine coolant temperature reaches 90 °C (194 °F).
Let the engine idle for about 5 minutes with the throttle fully closed.
NOTE: If the radiator fan comes on, do not include its running time in the 5 minutes."
All thoughts appreciated.
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I wonder where the financial break even point is with all this running the engine for testing/resetting , not having S/S at all in the colder months and more expensive S/S batteries. You'd have to do a lot of town driving I think to make enough fuel savings.
I have no experience of a conventional S/S. My daughter says that even in summer her Fiesta rarely gets warm enough for S/S to activate before she joins the motorway ,and no use at all on the motorway or the final leg of her journey to work.
So its not just Jazz . And mostly due to her typical driving pattern.
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Wondering if an earlier charge, with a "standard" charger direct onto a disconnected battery has upset the ECM?
Think I should have connected negative lead to L shaped metal termination of chasis -ve lead.
I have read that if you remove the battery from the car and discharge it using a 12v bulb then reconnect it to the car and charge it in the manner you quote, that effectively relearns the ECU. It's worth a try.
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Wondering if an earlier charge, with a "standard" charger direct onto a disconnected battery has upset the ECM?
Think I should have connected negative lead to L shaped metal termination of chasis -ve lead.
I have read that if you remove the battery from the car and discharge it using a 12v bulb then reconnect it to the car and charge it in the manner you quote, that effectively relearns the ECU. It's worth a try.
@Jocko - Your suggestion was going to be my next move - headlight bulb already prepared!
Any thoughts on discharge time or voltage drop?
Smart Charger has a choice of Slow 14.4v /1A, Fast 14.4v /4A, Cold 14.7/4A - but which?
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I would just discharge it until the battery voltage shows signs of dropping (if you have a multimeter). Or until the bulb starts to show signs of dimming. Set charger for 4A. The alternator would push out way more than that.
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Still no Auto Idle Stop!
But I've stopped worrying about it. The idle revs are less than 1000 and the rest of the Jazz MK3 is great.
Stumbled across a video about the battery sensor which might interest others?
https://thepowerfacts.com/what-is-the-purpose-of-a-battery-sensor/ (https://thepowerfacts.com/what-is-the-purpose-of-a-battery-sensor/)
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Ever since I got my car in 2015, the idle-stop system has stopped working over the winter and started functioning again in spring. This year, I've reset it twice now (by removing and replacing the negative battery connection); each time, the idle -stop has worked for a day or so and then started sulking again. Even if the journeys have been long enough that the battery should be well charged. So it really does need a battery in tip-top condition, and doesn't like one that's getting towards the end of its life (although still perfectly capable of starting the car when needed).
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FYI,
Lidl Weekly (Eng) 20-26 July 2023 Car & Motor Cycle Battery Charger £14.99
"Intelligent microprocessor control with diagnostics program and fully automatic charging process", the blurb says.
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As I understand it, stop start on some cars only works if you're not asking too much from the battery.
Turn on aircon in hot summer or heating in winter or main beam and/or wipers in heavy rain or night and the 'sensor' will keep the engine running to cope.
This time of year with temps being close to comfortable, hopefully no rain and during the day, stop start should work most of the time.
If not then a trickle charger for short journey motoring may be an answer.