Clubjazz - Honda Jazz & HR-V Forums
Other Hondas & General Topics => Off Topic (Non-Honda) => Topic started by: Kremmen on April 29, 2021, 03:14:16 PM
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How do we feel about pay per mile to coincide with the petrol/diesel ban ?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/cars/article-9521283/Per-mile-road-pricing-effective-way-plug-Treasurys-40bn-tax-hole.html
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Great for the future. Would cripple me at the moment.
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I agree with the principle (£20 per 1000km won't break the bank) but not some of the details. For example, SUVs should be charged a lot more than smaller cars and the scheme could sensibly include congestion charging / road pricing. How will the charging be worked out? Someone checking the odometer once per year or by loads of cameras. How easy is it to "clock" a digital odometer?
I've long said that the gov't should abandon the freeze on fuel duty. An extra 3p or whatever in tax is small compared to the fluctuations in fuel price arising from imbalances in supply and demand but cumulatively could have enough impact to improve the economics of going electric. Using a public charger to charge a battery is about the same cost per mile than putting petrol into my Crosstar.
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Terrible idea. Fine if you've the money, not so good for NMW workers relying on their cars to keep the country going.
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Two methods of extracting money from road users already exist, the vehicle excise duty and fuel tax, fuel tax won't work so VED could be used. Why spend money on setting up a new system which successive governments are notoriously bad at.
Vic.
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Terrible idea. Fine if you've the money, not so good for NMW workers relying on their cars to keep the country going.
At the moment we pay by the mile in a roundabout way in that we pay tax on our petrol. The more you use the more you pay in tax. I wouldn't imagine we would be paying more, just those that don't currently buy petrol (EV drivers) will be paying for their driving. Should satisfy the EV haters. The pay by the mile will replace the other taxes we currently pay as drivers.
Putting the tax on VED is very unequal. The pensioner who uses his car to go shopping once a week is paying for the rep who clocks up hundreds of miles per week. Charging per miles means you pay for what you use.
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It's not just the move to EVs which will hit the gov't revenue. By now having a car which does 70mpg instead of 50mpg I'm paying 40% less fuel duty per mile. If everyone moved to hybrids with 20% better fuel economy than whatever vehicles were previously used then that has a big financial implication.
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Broadly I'm in favour but the transition to such a system would require a lot of thought. People who continue to drive ICE vehicles are effectively paying a form of charge per mile in fuel duty so to slap a per mile charge on top of that would be unfair especially to the less well off.
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How do we feel about pay per mile to coincide with the petrol/diesel ban ?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/cars/article-9521283/Per-mile-road-pricing-effective-way-plug-Treasurys-40bn-tax-hole.html
They will need a tamperproof way of recording mileage.. in each vehicle. as it is impossible to monitor road usage by car...think of all the small side roads..
I foresee large scale fraud.
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How do we feel about pay per mile to coincide with the petrol/diesel ban ?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/cars/article-9521283/Per-mile-road-pricing-effective-way-plug-Treasurys-40bn-tax-hole.html
They will need a tamperproof way of recording mileage.. in each vehicle. as it is impossible to monitor road usage by car...think of all the small side roads..
I foresee large scale fraud.
System will no doubt be GPS based because some roads will carry higher mileage rate. Mileage will be recorded on one of those huge centralised databases that governments are so good at :o
They will regularly be hacked and data will disappear ....
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What is wrong with the old system of road tax based on vehicle type, etc.
No expensive infrastructure required and they just bring EV cars into the equation. EV cars still need roads and road maintenance so should help pay for it.
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What is wrong with the old system of road tax based on vehicle type, etc.
No expensive infrastructure required and they just bring EV cars into the equation. EV cars still need roads and road maintenance so should help pay for it.
It will partly be used to discourage traffic out of congested areas, roads in cities will be charged 10x rate per mile of country roads.... The fuel tax at the moment at least means those who use the most pay the most, VED is just a blunt instrument that takes no notice of mileage. I have no doubt at all that the government already have a plan using chips in cars and smart meters to charge more for electricity used to charge vehicles - even at home.
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My plan is to get a MK4 and hold onto it for about 8 years, like my current Civic.
By 2030 I may not need a car and excessive road pricing would confirm it.
I just feel sorry for those who have to commute.
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Every time an EV is charged all the drivers journeys are logged then sold on the internet to the data hovering companies....
What a way to provide advertising fix via charge points.
Roll on small engines petrol/hydrogen vehicles.
Or better still old cars with petrol engines & turbochargers - hangon got one already
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GPS is easily blocked so I don't see how that could be used. A sealed odometer would be the only way to go.
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GPS is easily blocked so I don't see how that could be used. A sealed odometer would be the only way to go.
Plus ANPR on roads where congestion charging is being used.
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GPS is easily blocked so I don't see how that could be used. A sealed odometer would be the only way to go.
Sealed odometer would need to know where the vehicle was because the main idea of road pricing is that some areas would be more expensive than others. Maybe transponders at roadside to give info would work. GPS has privacy issues because it allows tracking of vehicle in real time.
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If they try and use technology there will be a fiddle.
KISS and go back to taxing all cars based on type. Yes it penalises the low milers, like me, but is straightforward.
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There is no simple solution, it would be logical to tax a vehicle for its total pollution, miles driven per annum and the emissions per mile, and then we need to allow for demographics, less well-off people who drive older second hand cars which have lower mpg returns and higher pollution, yet I do not want the less well off to be penalised by fuel taxation or deprived of their transport by fixed annual VED duties.
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There is no simple solution, it would be logical to tax a vehicle for its total pollution, miles driven per annum and the emissions per mile, and then we need to allow for demographics, less well-off people who drive older second hand cars which have lower mpg returns and higher pollution, yet I do not want the less well off to be penalised by fuel taxation or deprived of their transport by fixed annual VED duties.
Well arguably people with older cars tend to do a lot less mileage - so less pollution even though vehicle may be classed as dirty. Biggest polluters may well be company cars because they often do high mileages and drivers do not pay for fuel - so no reason to drive carefully... Also many company drivers got PHEV for tax purposes but never charged the battery, so went everywhere at 30MPG dragging the weight of a useless battery around.
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GPS is easily blocked so I don't see how that could be used. A sealed odometer would be the only way to go.
Sealed odometer would need to know where the vehicle was because the main idea of road pricing is that some areas would be more expensive than others. Maybe transponders at roadside to give info would work. GPS has privacy issues because it allows tracking of vehicle in real time.
Not on country roads: too many minor roads and liable to be damaged by vandals.
ANY system which relies on physical hardware on routes is NOT going to be effective and will be exorbitantly expensive..so Boris is bound to choose it. :-\
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If they use a sealed odometer then when would they read it. MOT is no good as you're first isn't due to year 4.
Then you've got to retrofit or tax older cars more.
I still think any technology solution is expensive to implement and will be hackable.
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GPS is easily blocked so I don't see how that could be used. A sealed odometer would be the only way to go.
Sealed odometer would need to know where the vehicle was because the main idea of road pricing is that some areas would be more expensive than others. Maybe transponders at roadside to give info would work. GPS has privacy issues because it allows tracking of vehicle in real time.
Not on country roads: too many minor roads and liable to be damaged by vandals.
ANY system which relies on physical hardware on routes is NOT going to be effective and will be exorbitantly expensive..so Boris is bound to choose it. :-\
Could be fitted to existing lamp posts and other tall structures, and would not be large as only short range required.
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Makes fuel duty look a simple and targeted option to me. And I'm one of those on limited means doing 10k miles a year in an older car. You'd almost think every one is looking for the option where someone pays, just not me.
[Added] I appreciate fuel duty has its drawbacks and is not the only solution but for years now we've had the odd situation where the government wants to raise duty but won't because they caved in to some very effective protests years ago. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think it's a fixed amount per litre, not a percentage, so in effect the duty has been falling.
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Makes fuel duty look a simple and targeted option to me. And I'm one of those on limited means doing 10k miles a year in an older car. You'd almost think every one is looking for the option where someone pays, just not me.
[Added] I appreciate fuel duty has its drawbacks and is not the only solution but for years now we've had the odd situation where the government wants to raise duty but won't because they caved in to some very effective protests years ago. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think it's a fixed amount per litre, not a percentage, so in effect the duty has been falling.
With electric vehicles and people charging at home a duty on fuel would not work - if you raise rate of VAT etc on electricity then everyone who uses electricity would be paying it... hardly fair for people without cars to subsidise car owners. They will probably use smart meters ( smart meters would become mandatory ) and chips in cars to measure amount of charge going into vehicle ( the chip could communicate with smart meter either wirelessly, or via the charging cable or via mobile phone network ). One thing is for sure the governments will not easily give up their 'cash cow' motorists - so they will wait until a 'critical mass' of people have bought BEV before unleashing their fiendish way of making up the shortfall from fuel duty and VED... could be that it will be even more expensive to run an electric car than an ICE one - watch this space.
PS - it has now been over 21 days since the fans on sticks contributed more than 5% to national grid, today so far it is 1.5% ( 0.45GW ) - happy days.
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What is wrong with the old system of road tax based on vehicle type, etc.
No expensive infrastructure required and they just bring EV cars into the equation. EV cars still need roads and road maintenance so should help pay for it.
Very true, and road maintainance will actually need to increase when EV's take over as they're actually heavier than ICE vehicle so damage the road more. While it's marginal per car, I bet it adds up when the damage done by all cars on the roads is taken into account.
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VED goes into the general taxation pot. The "road fund" hasn't been used for roads since a nice Mr Churchill used it to balance his budget.